Of all the insane stories that have come out of the war in Iraq, this might just be the craziest.
“Two unknown gunmen in full Arabic dress began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer,” CNN reports. “The two gunmen fled the scene but were captured and taken in for questioning, admitting they were British Marines carrying out a ‘special security task.’”
“Iraqi security officials… accused the two Britons they detained of… trying to plant explosives,” the Washington Post notes.
Members of the Mahdi Army, the militia loyal to the rebellious Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr, then “converged on the police station holding the British men, apparently hoping to seize them in order to free… three colleagues in British custody,” the New York Times says. “[They] begun attacking the station with assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades, and… British troops soon responded to defend it…
“British armored vehicles… fired on the station, headquarters of the major crimes unit in central Basra, and [broke] through its outer wall. Troops then stormed in and freed the two [Marines].“
The pair were “sprung only hours after British forces had encircled the building but were forced to flee by a violent mob hurling stones and Molotov cocktails,” the Times of London reports. “Two Iraqi civilians were reportedly killed in the riots, during which two UK Warrior armoured vehicles were set alight.“
According to the AP, “150 Iraqi prisoners [also] fled as British commandos stormed inside and rescued their comrades.“
THERE’S MORE: The BBC says the marines were actually being held in a militia safehouse. It’s one of a number of discrepancies in the news accounts of this confusing story. There are sure to be more.
Juan Cole has put together a timeline of the events, and a possible explanation.
Bedlam Follows Basra Intrigue
Previous post: Propaganda, Inc.
Next post: U.S. Lags in Civilian Bots
{ 122 comments… read them below or add one }
Never rely on Juan Cole, who has wrong facts on Iraq’s history, slammed for the incorrect claims of 1920 revolution by a liberal Iraqi. I’d rather rely on Debka if I was ever to choose between Juan Cole, of the objective tone and for the subjective tone. I lack trust for experts speaking in subjective tone.
The feeling I have is that the action taken by HM forces was undertaken once it was discovered that the two soliders had been remover from the (safe) custody of the police station and handed on to members of the militias. It seems that this flouting at a local level of the laws relating to the interaction between police and coalition troops triggered both the visit to the police station to seek information and then a visit to the house in which they were being held so as to remove them from the control of the mob or malitia.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1573896,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1573904,00.html
I hope that this was just a local problem but I do fear this does not bode too well for the police as for them to bow to mob rule and depart from accepted procedures does not paint too good a picture when viewed from Baghdad, Washington or London.
I have to give it to HM Marines, they kept their cool even when it was obvious these guys where not going to do what they where suppose to and that the crowed did not have their best intrests in mind. It would have been so easy to fire up the coax on one of those Warriors.
I would also caution on Debka as it had played up the non-existent Saddam-al Qaeda link
Brigadier John Lorimer said it was of “deep concern” the men detained by police ended up held by Shia militia, something that put their lives in danger.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4264614.stm
Another part of the story, I wonder just how long we will have to wait for the Iraqi government to issue their findings?
Britain makes the United States look bad when they conduct special operations with the intent to kill iraqi civilians and police.
They are no better then the terrorists and regimes we waged war on. They are conducting their own terrorist campaigns for propaganda purposes (making iraqi’s think their own elements are attacking each other). This is criminal.
We should denounce Britain in the War on Terror and ask them to remove their 28,000 troops. I dont blame Iraq for not trusting our intent and resist if this is the kind of operations Britain is willing to undertake. If Britain is willing to stoop to that level I have no desire for my country to call them an allie.
I wonder if 7/7 really happened like they “said” it did. Would they sacrifice 50 of their citizens lives to make the populous support the war on terrorism in a staged terrorist attack carried out by British intelligence services? I mean this is the same kind of operation they are conducting in Iraq, murdering innocent people on purpose.
America wouldnt do this type of thing would they? Have we in the past? Send Britain home. They are diluting our cause and fueling the fire. I hope all the bombings against civilians arent coalition special forces operations. Wasnt there a bunch of British soldiers who started attacking US forces in some kind of renegade element?
Britain has lost its mind.
i am sure they were threatened first so they fought back. don’t believe everything you read..
I believe the British armie should come home..This is President Bush war. The United States and Great Briton were led into this War by the lies and greed of our President to make a name for himself..Fred
Damn Straight, Fred. Said like a real American!!
Anyone who does not know our actions in Iraq are a NECESSARY part of our war on terror is either IGNORANT of SUFFICENT
FACTS or they are just too “F”ing STUPID to comprehend the facts.
(And a few peoples comments here show me they are in the latter catagory!)
The FACTS are there were Saddam & AQ links going back to at least 1996. So wake the hell up and get your head out of your ignorant butt!
Neil C. Reinhardt,
former 101st Airborne
I agree with Neil But we should bomb the helloutta them. Let the civvies move away and then flatten the country
I agree, if Britain wants to f*** around like that then they need to get the hell outa dodge. They’re no different than the terrorists that we went into Iraq after.
There were weapons of mass destruction, even Clinton said so. They were moved out or buried – they will turn up, most likly to late. Its all ways someone elses war. with people like this we would be to countries, north and south. Thinking like that and we would have not gone to war in the 2nd world war. Just wh\aited for Hitler to walk all over us, or joined them. There are many links between Sadden and AQ. What about the camp with the jet plane? hans Blix couldn’t find his ass from a hole in the ground. specking of hole in the ground the desert is a big place! And what about those trainsport trucks going out of country? IT may take years, but they will turn up. i guess the 70S still rule.
WTF? This is one incident and already people on this thread are saying that the British should piss off-I assume most of you are Americans. The US needs all the help it can get at the moment.Also it is disrespectful to those UK servicemen who already gave their lives to this war.It took a lot of balls not to fire on that crowd, which would have sparked off an even bigger incident.
Hey jtw, I hope you don’t bump into UK soldiers, especially those “speical operations” types-they’ll tear you a new a**hole. BTW looks like they were Marines(a bit of a difference).
Guys you seem to forget that our fellow troops are over there fighting. Why not just support them and let the people that have the intel do their jobs.
Neil
You’re obviously still a good soldier who continues to snap to attention whenever the President speaks – right or wrong – its an admirable quality. Unfortunately you appear to disagree with Mr. Bush. Mr. Blair, and Mr Powell regarding the connection between Saddam Hussein and al Queda.
Bush & Blair were asked during a press meeting January 31, 2004 if they believed there was a direct link, and Bush replied “I can’t make that claim” and Blair responded “That answers your question”. On January 8, 2004, Powell stated “I have not seen a smoking gun, concrete evidence about the connection” referring to having proof of a link between the government of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and terrorists of al Queda. If you know something that these men don’t it is your patriotic duty to alert them, because they don’t seem to be as convinced as you are. These and other similar quotes by these men are in the public record and in official government records. Also, I would hope that your advice to “wake the hell up and get your head out of your ignorant butt” was not meant for your CIC, the then Secretary of State, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain (our good ally) as they don’t seem to “comprehend the facts” as you know them.
We do have proof that Mr Rumsfeld had a relationship with Saddam Hussein going back to December 20th, 1983 when he is seen in a National Security Archive file photo shaking hands with Saddam in Baghdad. The questions are – Is the friend of our friend a friend, or is the friend of our friend our enemy?
You may wish to send a few “F”ing words at me for this response however I also proudly served my country during the Viet Nam war and so am not unacquainted with them. Unlike you, I was trained to look beyond the rhetoric and bluster of a self-serving President desperately searching for his place in history, who doesn’t mind using good people like you and our brave fighting men and women in Iraq to acheive that end. I applaud your dedication to your CIC however I suggest you take a long look at history (his and the world’s) and try seeing the much bigger picture. Good luck.
You know something,I spent 6 yrs in the Ulster Defence regiment during the late 80s and early 90s and looking at all you guys,British and American,you all seem to have forgotten how to keep your six covered.Have we forgotten all the lessons we learnt? What happened to clearing your route before taking vehicles down there,oh I forgot,its hot out there,better to stay in the shade inside your Landrover or Humvee. Lets complain about the lack of aircon instead.These damn things got too hot,even in Ireland,except at night when you wanted some shuteye,the bloody heater wasn’t too good then.By the look of the guys bailing out of their tank,they seem to have cured the heaterproblem.In all seriousness though,We all need to leave Iraq now,but how to do it without losing face is the hard part.We gave them their freedom and now its really up to them what they do with it.Lets bring our guys home alive now, instead of in bodybags.And by the way,in my six years, we never lost anybody on patrol,cos we didn’t follow Army routine,we used instinct. If it don’t feel right,then put yourself in the terrorist mind, what if I wanted to ambush this patrol,where would I do it from.
Good luck guys and gals
We were attacked by muslim men from several countries in the middle east. Stop f*())&*^ing around and nuke the entire middle east taking out Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Tunisia, and turn the area into glass. While there we should take out Africa as well, the entire continent. Learn how to survive without their oil.
From the stories coming out of this incident, I wouldn’t tell the Iraqi Police what I was up to either.
As for the above statement about nuking Africa and the Middle East-doesn’t even deserve a response.
I spent the better part of a year in Iraq;
a few points:
virtually all of the police units are either corrupt and/or have been infiltrated by mostly Shiites, and some cases, old Saddam era Sunnis.
The Shiite cleric, Muqtada Sadr, ordered his followers to join the military, the police, and virtually every government office.
Never ever never stop for the police;
they are either corrupt, as above,
or members of militia, or Saddam’s Fedeyeen,
or Al Qaeda;
in stolen police vehicles and uniforms;
never stop.
If police do attempt to stop you; shoot them,
or at least at them/their vehicle;
period.
Why? Because the few real, trustworthy police would never ever attempt to stop or interfere with the military or any American/European;
not in the current atmosphere. As all Americans
and Europeans have armed guards or are armed themselves much better than the police, who usually carry old barely working 9mm pistols
and a few AK-47′s with a few bullets in the magazine.
If anyone reading this ever goes to Iraq;
remember this; always, always, always have someone
to watch your back. If you hire Iraqi guards,
hire a few from one tribe, and a few from another;
they can then watch each other.
Never ever trust an Iraqi; unfortunate, but true
in the current situation. They will switch sides
in a heartbeat if it makes them money, or they
are ordered to by their tribe, cleric,etc.
On the other hand, if you have worked with an Iraqi for a period of time, and are good to him, treat him with respect, and pay him well, you will slowly gain their acceptance and they MAY be less likely to turn you over to a bad guy or set you up;
If your Iraqi guards ever NOT show up to work,
be very very careful; he may have set you up
and does not want to be around when you are attacked. That way he can save face and say he
was not involved.
Good luck, and watch your back.
b
It never ceases to amaze me how people will believe anything they read. There is a word that many seem to forget when it comes to political ideals and motives. “Propaganda”
But hey, if you wanna believe every report that make coalition forces out to be murderous pigs, I guess its your right. Go back to your copy of Al-jazeera and pull the cloak of hatred back over your head.
Gus
In the first paragraph it says, “CNN reports”
“Nuff said!
I was assuming the following were facts when I made my comments:
-Britain gave the order to setup bomb attacks against Iraqi police forces under the guise of it being carried out by Iraqi civlilians.
-People died. Because I swore I could of heard that they killed and wounded as much as 5 people. I thought this was reported the first day so I assume there was a media coverup (A country so evil as to carry out these operations would obviously be equally as evil to lie about it). All the reporters in Basra were mysteriously murdered when this happened.
-If it happened once it has probably happened before.
-I dont like Britain to begin with.
Maybe I dont have proof that they were out planting bombs, shooting at iraqi police, shooting at suspected militia.
But I am painting my own picture and saying they were.
WHat does Ireland have to do with this? Ireland is a completely different country then Britain, and if I was them I would remove myself from the UK, take back Northern Ireland by force, and teach Britain a lesson on their evil history to get lost already. Then Scotland should become independant.
I appreciate the one’s who kept their dignity in fighting for the good cause and not giving in to the criminilistic methods in reaching the goal.
I may be wrong but I dont really care, any chance to bring down Britain is a good enough reason for me :) America is that much better.
Yea I’m real sure that President Bush wanted to get hundreds of soldiers killed, and spend millions of dollars just so he could make a name for himself. Obviously you dont know all the causes and reasons for going to this war. Im sure that he is stealing lots of oil from the Iraqi’s and keeping it somewhere hidden underground, and hes probably stealing lots of money from the Iraqi’s too huh? Why dont people just support what we are doing over there. We are improving the lives of the Iraqi people, and GB is doing the same thing. GB has way more expereince with dealing with people from other countries under occupations ( not saying this is one). You think they meant for this to happen, you think that this is all true what people say on an internet source? Dont believe what you see or hear. Things can be distorted and changed to make a story.
After drawing upon a few press, radio and TV feeds it seems that a good portion of the police force are members of one or more various militia groups and that in the eyes of a lot of Iraqis the title Police and Militia are interchangeable. It also seems that members of the Iraqi government has stated that the police are infiltrated by members of various militias and actions are now underway to weed them out. With one criteria for withdrawal being a functioning (by who sets the standards?)
Iraqi police force it looks like coalition forces may be on the ground for quite some time unless the exit criteria are amended for whatever reason.
News reports that are truthful, accurate and unbiased are often hard to find but making speculations upon often incomplete data never ever goes out of fashion.
OMFG, some of you people are idiots, folks we are talking about SAS operators, that’s like saying handing over your 12 yr virgin daughter to a child molestor. What is wrong with you ppl?
If the operators were there is was for a reason and if they shot at someone it was for a reason, especially if they are SAS.
And for you calling for Brits to get out because of this, you’re a moron. They did the right thing, the news is too conflicting for any one of us to know what actually happened. But I would have done the same damn thing. They militia wanted a bargaining chips by using the operators. What we should do is go down there and kick that Sadr in the a$$ and make sure he sleeps with his ancestors. He’s one of the problems facing iraq these days..
Get a grip ppl.
Airborne Infantry veteran..
Hey James,
The people with the intel obviously aren’t doing their job. Those of us that need the intel ARE NOT getting all the information to make the best choices to best handle the situations that need handling at our level.
The only facts is that the situation is not improving but deteriorating.
Looks like that invading Iraq was a bold error and the post-invasion consequences for a full civil war like we experiencing well underestimated.
Terrorism has not been stopped but fueled. Oil prices are booming. The US armed forces resources are stretched to the limit.
Also looks like there is no way out and improving armor protection for US soldiers will not help to solve the situation…
If we weren’t so worried about civilian casualties, this war should have been over. Wars are fought by nations against nations. Civilians support their military or militias. The insurgents are civilians fighting us in the name of who knows who. Politics and antiwar people actually prolong the war just like the environmentalists cause the rise in gas prices. WE MUST MAKE WAR IN ORDER TO LIVE IN PEACE. DESTROY THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL US IN THE NAME OF SOME SYPHILLITIC PROPHET.
All that info is totaly wrong.. i come from Staffordshire -Stoke-on-trent. England
The 2 men captured were SAS and were not arrested for planting bombs,,
Commandos did not storm the building the ” Staffordshire regiment A company” did and they did because the Iraqi police refused to give our SAS men back and handed them over to the milita
after the staffords stormed the prison they fountnobody.. a british helechopter wathced iraqi police escape from the back and go into a local building which was stormed and we got our SAS men,,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262336.stm
http://aaotracker.4players.de/thread.php?threadid=109714&page=1&sid=
these 2 links are my proof.. i know 3 men that were in that attack and people dont flame them for being in iraq. yes it is americas war but we have and idiot goverment leader called blair who licks bushes arse!..
i am British Forces my self and believe me we dont want to be there..
Dear ARMCHAIR WARRIORS,
Please if you most run off at the mouth do so only to yourself. You all listen to the media like they are gods. They are not they are in the line of make money, there for BS sells. If you have not set boots on the ground there or any other hot spot then you need a cup of shut the f*** up. Damn right the brits did the right thing by getting there men out, that place I hate to tell you is still a war zone. So once again stop being ARMCHAIR WARRIORS.
Pround Memeber 3RD BDE 2ID 1-14 CAV FT. Lewis. WA
NEVER, EVER LINK TO JUAN COLE!!!!!!!! OUTRIGHT SEDITIONIST HE IS!!!!!!!!
It’s amazing how many people believe that 5000 Kurds gassed themselves with their own personal stash of a WMD. And, that the former Iraqi dictator would not possibly consider doing this to us… or having someone else do it for him (AQ).
It is hard to believew that anybody out there thinks the brits should not have pulled their guys out. Next stop for those guys might have been a TV special where they lose their heads.
Whatever it takes. A few dead there is better than more dead here. (Of course, you’ll ignore this fact like you did the previous.)
ALL PANNTIE WASTES SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM ANYTHING SHARP,OR RESEMBALS A WEAPON.STAY CLOSE TO MOMMA.YOU MAKE BETTER SENSE THAT WAY.MEN DON’T UNDERSTAND THEM EITHER!!PUSS….
fact of the matter is this:
1)THere were no wmd’s in iraq
2)Iraq had no connection to al qaeda
3)Iraq has stretched us forces thin and severyly crippled if not altogether destroyed our ability to fight the war on terror
4)you fight insurgencies with spec ops! not conventional!geez.
5)sweeps are useless. Use the inkblot method and live with the people, gain their trust and then don’t leave so they get their throats slit. If u don’t have enough guys to secure the whole country then secure part of it and move on when it is secure.
6)there has never been a war won when there have been hostile countries to support the insurgency *cough*Syria and Iran*cough*
7)we can’t be world police.
8)we’ve got nukes, use ‘em! anyone who dicks with us or threatens us *cough*Iran and North Korea*cough* gets turned into a parking lot!yes there will be a lot of collateral damage, but there would be more if we didn’t nuke ‘em.
9)beware of govt. lies *cough*bush and abu ghraib being the fault of low ranking soldiers(scapegoats)*cough*
10)we still don’t have bin Laden
11)ABu Ghraib was NOT torture. it was abuse yes, but not torture. If I had to choose between standing for 14 hrs straight and getting little sleep(hint* NOT torture) and getting my bones broken and shocked with hundreds of volts and stabbed(hint* TORTURE, NOT abu ghraib) I think I’d choose the 1st option.
12)don’t stay in a country long with conventional troops. Hit fast and hard and get out.
13)never support corrupt, bad regimes(ex. south vietnam-dictatorship)
14)open your eyes!WHen we’re losing, stop using whatever bad techniques are causing it and move onto better ones or get outta there!
15)al qaeda sucks monkey @$$
You still think the Kurds gassed themselves? And Saddam simply got rid of these WMDs because he had a change of heart and became a humanitarian?
jtw, put down the crack pipe and breathe fresh air long enough to drop some of your conspiracy theories. Thanks.
I think this situation is absolutely rediculous, im sure the “marines” were probabally SAS or, even if they were marines, they were doing something that im sure was necisary. What I find puzzling is why they needed to *break* them out. I agree that the forces probabally responded when A. they were turned over to local militias, and B. when mobs formed. I doubt the British Forces were *actully* fighting the Iraqi Police, although It still puzzles me as to why fighting had to have taken place. They had armoured vehicles, and infinately superior firepower; was it really necsisary to fight? either way, i have to agree with Neil R. Wheather you believe that it (the ‘war’ in Iraq) is really necsisary or not is relatively irrelevant, I think that this is in teh best interests of hte U.S. People, and even teh western world (with the exception of France, who now has to pay reasonable prices on Oil.) But, I don’t want to debate this point, so perhaps the extremists on both sides should stop arguing on wheather or not it was justified, and start thinking about a plan which would be (preferabally) mutually beneficial to both the U.S. and it’s Allies, and Iraq.
*hint* The problem in Iraq isn’t with the “Iraqi’s” or the “Americans,” it’s with the shiites and teh Sunni. It’s like North and South Ireland, or Queen ‘Bloody’ Mary in the 1600′s, fighting over Catholosism and Protistantism.
It was meant as sarcasm for those who have forgotten the Kurds who were gassed with WMDs by Saddam. (Apology accepted.. “preemptively”.)
jtw, stfu and die in agony before going to hell you faggot commie piece of shit
Commie? I’m the epitome of the right-wing-capitalist-truth-seeking-red-state conservative who is battling those who believe the war in Iraq was begun under false pretenses. I remember the faces of the gassed Kurds, and I will do whatever it takes to keep that from happening here in the great US of A; the greatest nation ever to exist on this planet.
For me it’s a matter of faith, based on raids with British Commandos (41RMC) and operations with their Navy. The Brit military is pragmatic, and believe in Duty First. They might cut corners, particularly as defined by the liberal left, but they are honorable and fighting for the ideals of their service. When the dust settles, we will find that this is basically what happened.
jmo
Sorry. I thought you were talking to me. JTW isn’t worth the time to argue with. Republicans and Democrats have been disappointing lately… I agree.
The bottom line is anyway:
How can we come out from this mess?
We are still thinking we can turn Iraq in a friendly and peaceful democratic nation?
Is this Iraqi gov having any chance of survival without our tanks, guns and dollars?
How can be that British citizens born in UK are now becoming suicide bombers in their own country?
Is because we are not sending enought soldiers to Iraq?
We should deploy the US Marines in UK to fight those f…… british?
We should invade Iran to stop the Madrid bombers?
jtw, I don’t know where to start…so I won’t. You summed it up nicely yourself when you said “call me a crackhead or weird”. So… you’re a crackhead and weird.
The prosecution rests Your Honour.
-oz
Given the coverage by the press on the incident in Basra I find it odd that no one has been able to name the police man allegedly killed in the initial incident or interviwed his family/ covereds his funeral all of which would back the police account. Why did the police in Basra ignore a govnment order ( reiterated several times ) to release the two soldiers to the UK forces in accordence with current practice as stated by the Iraqi govenment.
jtw try reading up on modern Irish history particularly on the partition. Then take a trip to the cain archive and do the math on who has been responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths/ the deaths of non combatant catholics and the killing of known terrorists in NI over the last 30 years.
Answers on a post card to the IRA have been responsible for killing more catholics / civillians / their own members than the British Army,RUC,UDR or protestant paramilitary groups combined but thats something we dont like to mention as it might make us look bad in America competition.
oz-
an allie is a country that has the same ideal of personal freedoms and liberty that the United States has.
britain is the same exact country today then it was when we fought them.
it is like making a pact with the devil to take an easier route in accomplishing a goal.
principals and morals should say it would be better to go at it the hard way (alone) until they recognize freedom and conform to our ideals entirely.
they should be called the terrorists for Ireland and Scotland not allies in the global war on terror.
From what I understand Ireland wants a part of their country back and Britain is not giving. Scotland at one time wanted independance but didnt get it.
screw them. we should be funding and arming the IRA and Scottish movements the same way we liberated iraq.
i am a united states citizen, i dont live in a communist country. i beleive in the freedoms I have and the constitution i live under and protect. I wouldnt want to live in Britain. And I wouldnt want to see a country I dont like go into Iraq and make them hate us any more then they already do. I have to think that there are good people in Iraq and that we are trying to help them for a reason.
But im sure if Britain had its way they would put Iraq under control of the King and QUeen and call them a commonwealth.
Send Britain home. Tell them thank you but no thank you.
tony.
i dont know the history. all i know is that the ira attacked people who were supporting england’s conquest of ireland. and i know it included irish citizens and i know it included english citizens and british military.
I dont know their full history, but to me they seem honorable warriors.
England bombed entire german towns in WWII, killing women and children and thousands of people. WHAT LOGIC DO THEY HAVE SAYING THE IRA ARE TERRORISTS? They were bombing people for the cause of disrupting germans military. the IRa was bombing people in attempt to disrupt england at taking over Ireland. What is the difference?
The United States did the same in any war its fought in (you dont win wars by not attacking your enemy), and the same as Britain has done in any war they have fought in.
When you crash airplanes into civilian non military or industrial buildings it might not be an honorable tactic. If you take over a school with bombs and kill a bunch of kids (chechyna) it is not an honorable tactic. If you fight against grown men who are on the enemies side and you attack legitimate targets, that is WAR.
And war is honorable. Because enemies wouldnt be enemies if they were reasonable people.
I regret my country labels the IRA as a terrorist group. Although I do not know their full history, they dont appear to be one to me.
And being Scottish, Irish, and English myself, I want to see Scotland and Ireland become their own countries. My english in me is a type that doesnt like britain, as in someone who would of fought britain in the 1700′s. And I have sympathy for how Scotland was invaded and how Ireland was invaded and I dont like Britain for it.
jtw, please take this link http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ally
Also please take the time to read up on the Scottish Wars of Independance (yes the USA wasn’t the only country to fight a war of independance)
“..we should be funding and arming the IRA and Scottish movements the same way we liberated iraq.” – jtw
Most people would call that ‘State sponsored terrorism’ and since you are fighting a war on terror, my advice is to stop yourself while you still can!! Aim all your nukes at major US cities and “make the world safe for democracy”.
-oz
As a retired school teacher (social studies) and a retired Army pilot (0-4) who served in Viet Nam and Desert Storm, I find it refreshing that we can have such interesting dialogue with such a diverse group that all call themselves Americans! Those that contend that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq are correct. However, the U.S., working with the UN spent much money and time getting rid of what was left after Desert Storm. Yes, it’s possible some were stashed in the desert or shipped to Syria, but there is no substantial evidence that this occurred. I also believe that what can be proven indicates that there was no relationship between Al Kaida and Saddam. Of course, you can believe anything you want (did we really land on the moon? Is the earth really round?). I think we got the shaft in Viet Nam also. After reading Robert McNamara’s book, “In Retrospect” he explained how the US government (really the presidency) lied to us in order to escalate the war. This was done with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, passed by Congress, even though the attack by NVN gunboats on our ships never happened! McNamara admitted to being a significant part of the lie because LBJ felt that we needed to stop Uncle Ho, no matter the cost or the deception! Are we involved in another deception? Don’t be sucked in by the propaganda that appeals solely to your emotions. And ask yourself this most important question: was almost 15 years of war, billions of dollars and almost 60,000 dead Americans worth what we got out of Viet Nam? and Are we headed down this same path with an unwinnable war in Iraq? Please, for all of our sakes, get over the emotional thing and get cerebral!
Spot on Ted
I find it more than a bit disgusting that alot of people jump to conclusions from several news reports. If you spent any time at all in Iraq (where I currently am) you know that the news rarely gets it right. I will stick by the side of the Brits, after all, aren’t they about the only ones who stuck by our side?
JTW,
Don’t make me laugh, you get your history from Braveheart!!! That pap?
And please get your terminology right – the British are the Scots, Welsh and Cornish. The English are the English. And as the United Kingdom didn’t exist during the era of William Wallace, only became a reality between 1704 and 1707 with the Unions of Crowns and Parliaments, then the “Brits” didn’t kill anyone, it was the English.
And your continued deriding of the UK shows you up to be nothing more than a bigot, a racist, blinkered fool.
With the IRA I recommend you read the book, The IRA by Tim Pat Coogan. It is quote big though and will take you time.
With World War 2, only the British bombed entire cities? We won’t mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki then?
Not a single person who has responded to this blog is adequately informed or has any concept of strategy. Please, sit back – look at a world map and see if you can figure it out. If you can’t than you are just a typical follower with blinders on.
Let me put it this way – how many Coalition Forces would we have lost if we had to invade Iran? Got it now – move on – we are there we are staying and the children of Iraq and Afghanistan love us for it.
Please do not act like you know what you are talking about when the only facts you have are the ones you read about. If you don’t want us in the Middle East than quit murdering people – everybody knows the Middle East is better off now and if you don’t think so ask Japan, Germany, Poland, France, Britain and so on.
Now for the provocative part:
How stupid are humans that we fight when we agree – Jews Christians and Muslims all believe in the same God they just disagree in the last representative – how stupid is it. And anybody who thinks the Jewish Bible is different from the Christian Bible is different from the Quoran is really ignorant – I mean come on and the Muslims are more righteous because their version is written in the original format – stupid stupid stupid and they get their young men to blow themselves up. Sure we aren’t any better – but at least we fight for freedom and not redemption! Get a clue help somebody and have a nice day!
I could care less about all the politics to these arguements, no one will ever change anyone’s point of view. I do have some serious reservations about the photo shown at the top! Do not show buringing coalition vehicles or wounded/killed coalition soldiers! The enemy uses these as recruiting propoganda, besides, if that was your son or husband how would you feel if some media posted that photo?
I would like to say that jtw doesn’t represent the typical American citizen. Unfortunately, a few tours through the ‘deep’ South and other red states have led me to believe that the people deserve whatever leader the Supreme Court gives them.
Ted Naylor, thank you for your service, both as a teacher and a soldier. It’s refreshing to see that someone actually thought before they typed. Our overseas endeavors might be more fruitful if we planned and executed instead of just waving our pricks on TV.
I am an American fighting man. If my CIC orders me back to combat, I will not hesitate, because it is my sworn duty. That doesn’t make Bush any less wrong.
By the way, if you want your point to be taken seriously, might I suggest a little less Caps Lock and a little more Spellcheck.
ive seen it all now. brits go home, we’re diluting the american’s cause..well, i agree. we should go home and let the americans create a new order in iraq, one even worse than before. your president is a moron who is no more than a puppet for the big industry that salivated to get inside iraq and hoover up big contracts (hello dick c)
the american code of conduct in the middle east is appalling and i take heart from the fact that no evil empire lasts forever. especially one that fabricates evidence to invade another country. its amazing nobody ever thinks to why america is so universally hated around the world. surely there must be some intelligent people who live there who can a least discuss middle east, israel, the jewish actions towards palestine and maybe just maybe , think theres something absurdly wrong there that if properly sorted, might just stop the arab hatred of america growing????????
rob dempsey (ex Infantry and 5 airborne )
Okay, let’s get one thing straight, these boys are SAS, through training alone they have already been to ‘hell & back’. They know ALL the ramifications involved in such a situation as arised in Basra recently. I don’t doubt their integrity for a second and if they ‘fired on the crowd’ it was to save their lives under hostile situations. SAS are regarded as the pinnacle of Special Forces worldwide, they know what they are doing, so why even question them? They were there, we weren’t.
I commend the actions of the officer in charge of the breakout to save these two troops. I believe the Iraqi police have corrupt factions and wouldn’t trust them with my life or anyone elses for that matter of fact. Breaking down the wall of the Police station was probably the wrong thing to do as far as keeping good relations, but I would like to think the officer in charge gave orders to do so as a last resort. Obviously the Brits were desperate at that stage.
If the SAS troops had been handed over to militia as reported, it’s better to have them rescued & alive then have their heads shown on Al-Jazeera propaganda tv. End of story.
Secondly, for the uninformed out there….the roots run so much deeper, pls read on….
Cheney and Bush have large business ties in Halliburton. Halliburton won (I wonder how this happened?)multi-million dollar supply contracts to the US military and recently hurricane Katrina.
Saddam was placed into government by the CIA as their puppet. The war with Iran was supported by the US as the US/Israel have had less than good relations with them for many years. The CIA even gave Saddam VX gas….scary. The CIA has also provided Israel with nuclear weapons.
Once Saddam oppossed thier *views* he was removed. Simple. It was not for ‘oil’, it was for: 1) democracy in Iraq, 2) protection for Israel against Iran (by the newly democratic Iraq), and 3) riches gained by contracts to Halliburton. Hypothetically a win,win,win situation…or so Bush thought.
This is a war of (construed) religion and alliance (America and Israel). From what I gather Arabic nations *hate* Israel with a passion (enough to blow themselves up) and will stop at nothing to destroy them. Here’s where America comes into the picture….they have supported Israel’s illegal occupations & operations for many years and frankly they (Arabs) are sick of it. So now these *rogue* nations hate the US. Unfortunate, yes… avoidable…yes also.
It all comes down to the $$$, and people’s blood has been shed over this greed. Sever the economic and political ties with Israel and you can bet the ‘global’ situation will be a hell of a lot better. In fact, the Arab nations had no bar with the US before WW2…wonder why that has changed? (I’ll leave you to figure that out)
I have nothing against Israel but I can understand the arabic peoples frustrations (mainly Palestinians). But the US have finally come down on Israel to pull out of the Gaza strip hoping to ease tentions…too late I’m afraid.
Lastly, if they ever ‘find’ Osama Bin Ladin, they will not tell you. Don’t be so naive to think they will have him on ‘Judge Judy’ for the public to see on trial. He is either dead or has been captured. I doubt any incompetence of the Special Forces (of all allies) in not delivering one of those two options already.
These are FACTS. Please read, read, read and then some before you post. You only confuse the already naive.
Btw, sorry for such the long explanation but I felt it necessary for the largely uninformed out there.
With all politics aside I support the coalition troops 110% as they are there in the best interests of the Iraqi people, even if their governments are not.
Hey, does anynone else think it would be hilarious if jtw found himself in Hereford by accident? Those SAS guys would love to hear his opinions.
I’m sure if all of us were in those two guys shoes we would be f*cking thankful that commander had the balls to rescue us.
Well, how amazing are the comments! I am happy to note that some of you are aware of who and what the SAS is, and have noted that the troops surrounding the police compound DID NOT fire on the civilian mob when it would have been very easy to do and would have resulted in heavy casualties! Think of the discipline that represents! Ignoring the knee-jerk comments, please note the careful and punctilious attention paid to the protocols by the Commander on the ground – he followed every detail by the book, and only when that was completed did he impliment the diversionary tactic of an “attack” on the police compound (which itself was accomplished without casualty!) in order to invade the private house where the two troops were being held by the private militia, and again with no loss of life, and guess what guys – captured the bad guys as well! Quite different to a full on assualt with great loss of life don’t you think?
As for the question of the fast burning track, note that the vehicle had made no offensive move and was not “buttoned up” for a combat mode. They are a heck of a lot more difficult to immobilise when in a battle mode.
Finally, please don’t go there with any idea that the London bombing was a conspiracy. Make no mistake, the Brits were there when no one else wanted to know – unfortunately! For our sins, we now have the front line on our doorstep too. Well, we did have a chance after 9/11 to take a good hard look at our foreign policy and perhaps change it somewhat but instead we went off and put lots of expensive holes in the ground – just like we did in Vietnam with the same result – Bin Laden had a good laugh and disappeared. What a circus. Very sad, and unfortunately it will no doubt get worse.
I just want to say (as a veteran of OIF) that I support my President, I support our troops and I consider the Brits…a great friend.
I’m stationed in Germany now and see wounded soldiers everyday. Honest to God truth, 99% of them want to go back to Iraq.
I’ve heard good stories, sad stories, and horrific stories…yet they believe in what they are doing and have seen it first hand. It makes me proud to know that there are people in our Country willing to do what it takes. A lot of people could learn a lesson from these Brave Men and Women Serving.
We could argue till the cow comes home about why we are there or why we shouldn’t be. The fact of the matter is, we’re there now and that isn’t going to change.
Reading through all these comments, I only have one other thing to say, jtw..your a f’n moron.
Anyone who has a shred of intelligence would know that depending on getting accurate information from any of the news networks is like expecting whiskey to pour out of a cats a$$. I discovered enough information to convict Iraq of WMD development on the internet in less than 30 minutes. And that was using information restricted to nothing except pre-Bush dates and time frames. I have put criminals in jail for less information, but obviously the press has no interest in that, only in furthering their own agendas.
Personally, I do not believe the whole story about the jail break is known to anyone who was not there. If you think the news folks have got it down, once again take a drink of whiskey. My faith is with the British military and leadership. Their experience in this area goes back to at least 1920, and they have certainly learned how to deal with this sort of problem.
On the side, my favorite response to terrorism in Iraq occured in 1921. After the British assumed control of the area after WW1, the local clerics and revolutionaries decided to attack the British and “drive the infidels out”. The British countered with force and the terrorists hid in a mosque, the some one Saydr was hiding in a while back. The British minister handling the problem promptly ordered the bombing of the mosque as the terrorists were using the buildings as a stronghold and as firing positions. The local leaders ran to the minister, saying “Do not attack that building, it is holy to our religion!!” The minister, according to what I read replied, “Yes, but it is your religion, not mine.” The name of the minister was Winston Churchill, and he knew more about how to lead than anyone alive today!
Doug
Retired Army
What constitutes a connection between Saddam and Bin Laden? We know they met at least twice. We also know that Saddam was paying the families of suicide bombers in Israel $25,000 when their kid blew themselves up. I might be crazy, but supporting Hamas bombers and supporting Al Qaeda doesn’t seem like that big of a stretch. I have no sympathy for Saddam. I guess I am the only person who could care less if there where actually WMD found in Iraq. We KNOW he had them, why would he destroy them and not inform the UN and have the sanctions dropped? Either he still had them, or for some reason destroyed them but lied and said he still had them to keep people in fear of him. I don’t know. Just trying to use some logic here. Either way he lied about still having them and got caught with his pants down, or he still had them. Either way in my opinion he got what he deserved. I have my own beliefs about why the UN didn’t back up its own resolutions, but either way the sanctions were there for a reason. Everyone agreed he had the WMD’s, but (hhmmmm) France, Germany, Russia, and China didn’t want to do anything. Only history will tell if going to Iraq was right or wrong, good or bad. We were trying to clean up France’s mess in Vietnam. We are a nation who has opposed Communism for almost a century now. I believe Kennedy was doing just that when he went there. It turned out badly because the military and the inheriting presidents were worried about PR. Vietnam was “bad” because we didn’t fight to win. If we had won, would people think the same way about it? Instead we didn’t fight to win and pulled out without having acomplished anything, so people feel bad about Nam. If we learn our lesson and do what we have to do to break the will of the guys who still want to fight us and help bring more stability to Iraq, Iraq will turn out ok. Honestly, I am not even a George Bush fan, but the people showed they want a democracy and a voice when they came to vote, we have to do our best to establish that for them and not let their country fall back into the hands of a ruthless dictator. If we do that, history will be on America’s side. I don’t want war, but I am reasonable enough to know that there are things worth fighting for and people who are worth fighting against. Wars have furthered peace, stability, and LIFE for people. We would all still be servants to kings if reasonable people hadn’t had the courage to stand and fight. It is terrible that people die in war, but it can be for the good of many. If we stand strong in Iraq, it WILL be worth it.
I love the right to free speech and an open forum for discussing important issues. Blood has been shed for that right. But will somebody please kick JTW’s A$$! You watch too many movies, sport! The evil British Empire? Are you going to paint your face blue and challenge Tony Blair to a nut kicking contest? You are the next William Wallace! Get a grip! If you want the truth and not theory, go see your nearest Marine recruiter. He will set you on the path to enlightenment; a chance to put boots to ground and observe life first hand. You will actually see the good, bad, and the ugly that CNN and all the other monkeys get a quick shot of and run away to fabricate their meaningless, mindless Bush bashing. Please get a taste of reality and stop drinking the bong water!
One thing this thread seems to be missing is why did we go to Afghanistan and Iraq? The US has a policy dating from before WWI of taking the fight to the aggressor and not allowing the fight to be on US soil.
So the age old question of how do you get the people to support the war? Create fear in the people that they can be attacked again and fighting can be in the US. Americans as most civilized people in the world want to feel safe, especially in their own country. So the policy of taking the war somewhere else.
Iraq was a great candidate since Saddam had thumbed his nose at the UN Security Council many times. It was easy to build a case that Saddam was a bad guy (which he was) and use poor intelligence to make the case of invading Iraq.
Why did the US and Great Britain unilaterally launch the war? To set in motion our policy. Let’s face it, the American public did not need much convincing that attacking Iraq was necessary after 9/11.
Although it is unclear if the US had or has any long term plannning in place around Iraq, but an obvious plan would be to control Iraq and use it to launch operations against Iran. Afghanistan and Iraq were mere stepping stones on the way to Iran (and probably North Korea). They are the worlds biggest problems.
The problem for the US of course was poor execution. Not from a military perspective, because our military is the greatest, but from a politcal one. Bush and Rummy mistakingly thought we could be friends with the Iraqi’s through our age old process of appeasement. So instead of bringing Iraq to their proverbial knees, we thought surgical strikes could do the job.
So now we have a political nightmare, since our military is acting on behalf of the Iraqi government. What a political and policy disaster!
The first thing we must realize is that we are fighting muslims who do not value life, nor do they believe in tolerance or value individual freedom as we do. They are all our enemies, and we must accept this fact before any progress can be made. The muslims have declared War on us, have attacked us on our own soil, and are committed to the destruction of the US and the free world. So for Bush and his administraiton to think that we can win them over is a fantasy.
Read the history, learn the facts and understand that Jefferson was the first American who had to deal with this Muslim issue.
I’m with Jay on this. The Brits have been our true allies for many years and to belittle the sacrifices they have made on our behalf is dishonorable.
Matt
Okay since nobody seemed to catch on to my previous comment here it goes: What if we went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq to isolate Iran and save bloodshed. Nothing more nothing less – except a calculation on determining the best avenue of approach.
Prior to our War on terrorism there was only one way into Iran now we have it surrounded and will bring it down.
Things are not so complicated that there has to be a conspiracy – quit wasting your time bitching, get a job and help your neighbor.
Oh and for all those who believe the insurgents are defenders of something riddle me this – is life so useless that you have to cowardly strap on explosives and blow yourself up – its quite funny the media never talks about the money involved, drugs, sex and everything else.
I am disgusted by some of the anti British comments made above. The cowardly b*st*rds who posted them should be sent over to Iraq to see what a combat zone feels like, instead of sitting at home believing propaganda and playing at armchair heroes. Do you really believe that the soldiers just started firing at “civilians” for no reason? And why did our “pals” hand them over to the people who are killing American troops? This was a heroic rescue operation, that, for once, put the lives of the men first. Don’t forget, soldiers do not choose their war, they just do their jobs and try to survive!
Interesting how far back some of this blame game is progressing, perhaps we should blame and hold accountable mistakes and transgressions of the Romans, Saxons, Greeks, Ancient Egyptians, the Churches (Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Islam, etc.), Mesopotamians, Franks, Huns, Persians, Syrians, Turks, and any one else who had influence on modern Europe and what is now the Middle East. Nothing constructive will come of generalizing an entire countries or regions people, as you may have seen with the attitude of the rest of the world toward us in the US. All cultures have good and bad, just that those outside the culture may transpose those labels.
I think one of the most important points here is to not make the judgment based on incomplete, biased or blatantly misleading facts. And all sides are presenting the full gambit of these. With that said, may as well include King Author, Merlin and Excalibur in the previous blame paragraph!
As for the English, or British if you like, we are a better country because of that relationship. If I recall my history correctly, British roots are largely Roman influenced and ours are largely British, yet one mistake that was rampant in the Roman History is still repeated blatantly today by both countries. We tend to conquer, train the conquered, and then act surprised that they use our own technological advances and tactics against us. Seems like 2,000 years of that and we would catch on!
Bottom line, if your not there when the shit hits the fan, you probably dont know what got splattered.
And to prove I am not infallible, jtf, your an idiot.
spell check, meant JTW, your an idiot
I think JTW comments portray the negative side of American society it is people like that promote the feeling of resentment and distrust towards America.
To attack another country who have lost men in this war is indefencable.Would his solution to this problem be for the British troops to open fire on the civilains or should they show restariant and professonalisim .
His comment on British Special Forces shows his complete lack of knowledge .
clearly show how most people in America have no idea about foreign culutures and
There is a reason why the US is in Iraq. For all you God fearing patriots if you don’t know why capatilism works, take a good look at yourselves and how you live you life. I can’t stand your moaning and denial. Actually do something instead of writing these pathetic excuses of a discusion.
as a current member of the navy, i don’t believe everyone should just turn on the british so fast. the british have been allies to the united states for years and have helped us in iraq despite the british citizens not wanting to be involved. also what else were we supposed to do, saddam has no love for the united states and may have had involvement with terrorists as they say the enemy of your enemy is your ally.
Don’t believe everything you read. The news has put a one sided spin on the war in Iraq ever since day one of the invasion. From not showing one good thing that coalition troops have done, to omitting the fact that their were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq(maybe not a stock pile, but they were there). Speaking as a non-commissioned officer who recently returned from Iraq, reporters and news agancy’s quit pissing in our faces and support your troops
Thanks everyone for backing the Brits, now some question our involvment in Iraq and Afghanistan that the US doesnt need Britains help, well in a they dont but there are major things that the Brits have to offer, even though the US has the greatest army,navy,airforce in the world it would still cause alot of strein,resources,money and lives to go it alone. Now what does Britain have to offer?? well Britain has the best trained sodiers in the world, the best special forces and very good intelligence which led to the capture of saddam hussein. Together form the best fighting force the world has ever seen!
bottom line is if you haven’t been in a similiar situaion or served in the armed forces then shush.
Better to be Judged by 12 than to be carried by 6!
Get them out (back) any way it takes, cheers to the Brits on doing the right thing.
JTW your a complete bellend dont chat shit about the Brits mate your obviously some fat twat sitting on his fat arse all day reading what people say and a movie to get your eveidence from. I know all americans arnt like this dick ed most of you are good people!
Yeh JTW Yeh because you been in control of our crown havnt u, the USA might have the best army,navy and airforce but we Brits have the best trained soldiers, best special forces and very good intelligence agencies which led to the capture of saddam huseein im a Brit going into the British army, jtw u are a sad twat who dont know SHIT!
I’ve been trying to think up an appropriate response to any of the rubbish that jtw has vomited out on to this forum. I’m still struggling to. Well aware of what the nations are up against in Iraq, no one would be more pleased than me to withdraw all troops, British and American, out of the country, and do it overnight! Forget about saving face. Just get out and come home to whichever country you belong.
History… and The English. I’m English. and I am well aware of my nation’s history. Every bit of it! and what’s more… I love it!
Colonization and Empire Building? With the exception of the Swiss name me a European country that hasn’t tried it at least once in their existance?
Slavery? It’s sceptical exactly which European country started trading in it, but Britain was the first to outlaw it! Besides, Slavery had actually been going on within Africa itself for generations before the Europeans arrived.
Don’t even ask about the Scots or the Irish. both are tales that can’t be summed up in a Mel Gibson film and really shouldn’t be approached without taking the time to read a hell of a lot of history books.
I’m sorry guys but it’s so easy to pick out events from a history that goes back over 2,000 years and say we’re bad, but what about a history that doesn’t even cover 300 years, like yours?
One thing I notice that alot of people do is use contemporary thought to address the events of the past. You can’t do it. The thought patterns of the past are different, and as a result the events of the past should be left there. there’s no need to get stroppy because somebody’s great,great,great,great,great,great-grandfather enslaved, shot, went to war against someone else’s great,great,great,great,great,great-grandfather. That’s just pathetic!
I have extended family in the US, some of them have served their country, and I have nothing but time for any nation’s armed forces. it’s not easy to do their job, but we all rely on the security it provides.
jtw… you piss me off!
Dear jtw,
I, for one, welcome your views jtw. You are a pillar of modern thinking and each point you make is backed up by solid evidence. You arguments are unquestionable and you have such an elegant grasp of the English language that I haven’t seen since Winston Churchill. I’m sure I can find a place for you in my administration.
Yours,
G. W. Bush
President of the United States of America
jtw… You really know how to piss of a Nation don’t you? You sad little man!
Get a life son, and figure out who your allies are!
Oops sorry, that should be “piss off a nation”. I suppose jtw will now jump on that and make some comment about that little typo with intent to belittle me.
well, jtw… Bring it on!
I am USA retired, Former DIA, Viet Vet.
Comparing IRAQ to Vietnam would only make sense if we had occupied HANOI , HAip Hong, and there were no major powers supplying the VC, and the Regular North Vietnamesse Army we fought in NAM.
Last week in northern IRAQ we killed five hundred foreign terrorist by the Syrian border. That is five hundred that were not on the streets of LA, NY, London or Rome. It takes a much larger amount of manpower to fight then in our home countries then in IRAQ.
With a GPS transmitter, and some earth moving equiptment I could bury a million tonne of whatever out in the desert for later recovery.
IRAQ and AQ were allways trying to hide their connection.
CNN was amayzed when the people of Bagdad welcomed the US troops. It proved that all that they had previously reported from IRAQ was a lie.
I am greatfull for The UK in helping us in the COLD WAR against the USSR, and in IRAQ both times.
AQ does not hate us because we are in Saudi, or IRAQ, They hate anyone who is not one of them! They hate the Shia Muslims. Let them win, and soon they will be bombing Dublin, and Lisbon, Berlin and Paris. Because our women are free, and we drink a pint or two, or we are Christian.
Ever notice that not every Moslem is a terrorist, however it seems that ervy terrorist is Moslem? Kill ‘em all, let Allah sort them out.
Were Timothy McVay or Theodore Kaczynski (the Unabomber) Muslim? Or are they classed as “criminals” because the word “terrorist” can only apply to Muslims?
-oz
jtw Your a keyboard commando, you don’t get to pick your kit or ROE,you do your best with what you have to hand. More people died today in road accidents than serving in with US Forces in Iraq so to follow your logic you would cross the road if you could choose the road to cross and not the one you need to cross. Having read your posts I can only conclude that mommy still holds your hand when you cross the road, sleep safe jtw their are grown ups protecting you and don’t forget your always mommys brave little soldier and you have School in the morning.
oz,Spot on eleven years in HM Forces(78-89) and the only terr’s I came across where white and christian.If you look at the pre-eminant terrorist groups operating in Europe 70′s-90′s IRA(et al) ETA, Red Brigade and Barrder mienhoff it’s all white Chritian. Even in the hey day of tha PLO,PFLP,Black September,they were cause based rather than religious zelots.
If you take the history of terrorist actions back to the 1940′s through to the 1960′s it’s either cause or political idology based. The idea of muslim terrorism is reitivly new so to ascribe terrorism to one religeon is fundementaly wrong as they are using techniques developed by christian,zionist and communist terrorist groups.
I agree that not all Muslims are terrorists. One thing that troubles me is that a lot of Muslims don’t speak out against these suicide bombers that are Muslim. Ever wonder what is up with that? However, they are quick to protest when things like Abu Ghraib occur.
UNITED KINGDOM REVOKES AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE.
A Message from John Cleese To the Citizens of the United States of
America.
In light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA
and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of
your independence, effective immediately. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen
Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths,
and territories (excepting Kansas, which she does not fancy).
Your new prime minister, Tony Blair, will appoint a governor for
America without the need for further elections. Congress and the senate will be
disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine
whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown
Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
You should look up “revocation” in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Then look up aluminium, and check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed
at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. The letter ‘U’ will be
reinstated in words such as ‘favour’ and ‘neighbour.’
Likewise, you will learn to spell ‘doughnut’ without skipping half
the letters, and the suffix “ize” will be replaced by the suffix “ise.”
Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to
acceptable levels. (Look up vocabulary).
Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises
such as “like” and “you know” is an unacceptable and inefficient form of
communication. There is no such thing as US English. We will let
Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted
to take account of the reinstated letter ‘u’ and the elimination of -ize.
You will relearn your original national anthem, God Save The Queen.
July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.
You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns,
lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists
shows that you’re not adult enough to be independent. Guns should only be
handled by adults. If you’re not adult enough to sort things out without suing
someone or speaking to a therapist then you’re not grown up enough to
handle a gun. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything
more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. A permit will be required if you
wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.
All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and this is for
your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we
mean. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start
driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go
metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both
roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of
humour. The Former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been
calling gasoline) – roughly $6/US gallon Get used to it.
You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French
fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips
are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal
fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.
The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually
beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as
beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to
as Lager. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat’s
Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.
Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys.
Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English
characters. Watching Andie MacDowell attempt English dialogue in Four
Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one’s ears removed
with a cheese grater.
You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of
proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in
time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American
football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or
wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).
Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to
host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played
outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware that there is a world
beyond your borders, your error is understandable.
You must tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us mad. An Inland Revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty’s Government
will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all moneys
owing (backdated to 1776).
Thank you for your co-operation.
I was stationed near a British Navy helicopter squadron during Desert Storm. The one thing I know for sure – the Brits take their job and responsibility seriously, and they do it professionally. As in many other situations, I’m sure we don’t have all the facts. I will continue to support the Brits and I’m glad they are our allie.
keith…are you on drugs or something mate u chat shit! jtw you are a dick head! the UK & USA are doing a great job!
JTW, JTW, JTW
(Said 3 times for effect like my mother used to when she was berating me as a youngster)
I think that you should have read up on some facts before you started to spout rubbish. What you said about London was like saying that America attacked itself on 9/11 to get support for a war in Afghanistan and subsequently Iraq. Was it your relatives that actually carried out 9/11 or 7/7? You sound like the type of fool who ends up supporting terrorist actions without realising it.
If you want to see how bad we Brit soldiers are, I invite you to accompany me to Iraq or Afghanistan on my next tour, where I will be working with US forces (we actually work together you know!). Sorry – after that invite you’ll need a break for mummy dearest to change your pants seeing as you have just sh1t in them.
I hope my cousin – Nick, serving with the US Navy in the Gulf at the moment doesn’t know you, I think he’d be embarrassed at how one of his countrymen could be so dumb.
Uhhhh? This comment seems a bit odd to me: “sacrifices on our behalf? tell them thanks for the 2000 lives lost when we fought britain in the revolutionary war.”
The Revolutionary War? Yes, I know my history. But please, that happened literally hundreds of years ago. The United States and Britain has had a lot of positive history since then.
I refuse to turn on the modern British for something that took place centuries ago.
Matt
Lol I probably WOULD shit my pants. Scared for my life as we drive around in sand buggies through baghdad doing drive by’s on iraqi police while angry mobs chase us with molotovs hoping sitting on our flak flackets will protect us from the IEDS we drive over all while thinking our psionic mental abilities will deflect incoming RPG’s and bullets.
Thanks but no thanks, I will stay here and watch it unfold. We have made way too many mistakes for me to feel safe going there.
Hey guys think about what if we lost the revolutionary war? I can guarantee you we wouldnt be here on defensetech anoying what our country is today with our personal freedoms we have.
That alone is something you should never forgive Britain for.
You are fake Americans and you should go back to Britain where you probably recently immigrated here from.
anoying = enjoying…. typo sorry
THE BRITISH COVERT OPERATORS WERE ATTEMPTING TO GATHER INFORMATION OF THE WHEREABUTS AND VULNERABILITY OF MUKTADR OR SOME OTHER SUBJECT WHOM THE BRITS OR AMERICAN WANT TO ASSASINATE. THEY WERE CAUGHT IN THE ACT AND ATTEMPTED TO EVADE CAPTURE USING SMALL ARMS THEY CARRIED FOR PROTECTION. BEYOND THE EMBARRASSMENT OF THE FAILED SPY OPERATION, THEY HAD TO BE RESCUED OR THE NEWS OF THIER MISSION WOULD HAVE SPARKED ALOT OF ANIMOSITY FROM THE SHIIA SIDE AGAINST WESTERN INTERVENTION. THIS IS ANOTHER PLAIN EXAMPLE OF WESTERN INCOMPETENCE AND THE COLD WAR RULES OF ASSASINATING LEADERS WHO AREN’T IN PART LINES WITH THE RIGHT WINGERS. TACTICS MUST CHANGE AND INCLUDE DIPLOMATIC INCENTIVES OR THE MIDDLEAST WILL EXPLODE ON THE OCCUPIERS. IN ANY EVENT, RUSSIA AND CHINA (HISTORICALLY MORTAL ENEMIES) ARE NOW PARADING THIER FINEST WAR SHIPS IN THE CHINA SEA FOR THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AS A SIGHN THAT THEY ARE COOPERATING TO PROTECT THIER HIGHEST INTERESTS IN THE MIDDLEAST AND AS A MESSAGE THAT THEY WILL NOT TOLERATE MUCH MORE OF BUSH’S MINDLESS MUSINGS OVER THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS IN THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY WHO ALSO HAVE VESTED INTERESTS IN THE FREE FLOW OF OIL. IF AMERICANS AREN’T CONCERNED ABOUT AN OMINOUS NUCLEAR CONFLICT IN AMERICA’S ECONOMIC AND MILITARY INTERVENTIONS, THEY WILL WHEN RUSSIAN AND CHINESE TROOPS LAND IN IRAN. REGARDLESS OF THE VALIDITY OF JUSTIFICATION FOR THE WAR ON TERROR, FROM WHAT I KNOW THERE WILL BE A RECONING WITH THESE NATIONS IF THIS REDICULOUS DRAMA ISN’T RESOLVED SOON. PEACE BE WITH YOU.
That’s easy OZ, they stink ;)
From what I have read thus far, not many of you seem to know the all-encompassing roll that any SOF is playing in this War on Terror. Most of you should stop trying to wrap your heads around it. It’s way above your pay grade. XGman when you refer to western intervention, You would be refering to Operations like “Overlord”. You may want to ask the Americans, British, and Canadians who are buried on foriegn soil about western intervention. Oh, or just ask your friends the french about western intervention. There is alot of finger pointing, and the blame game going on here. Let’s remember how we got to this point. 19 ISLAMIC TERRORIST used planes as missles and destroyed lives, and property on US soil, right under our noises. They lied to achieve their mission. Islamic terrorist will lie again to gain jobs, status, and power for THE SAME MISSION of destroying lives,property and invoking fear. Now that we have come this far, some of you would like to turn back the clock and leave Iraq helpless to defend itself. XGman, diplomacy is great. But it only goes so far when you have people who only understand an “Iron Fist of Saddam”. We have formed a “Coalition” of forces to acheive democracy in Iraq. I have personally lost friends here. Do not trivialize there efforts in Iraq, by “pulling chaulks” before the job is complete. I applaude the Brits on the successful rescue mission of thier own. If I was one of those Marines or SAS, even if I lose my life, I want to know that someones coming for me, and I won’t be left behind.We need the Brits, Aussies, and the rest of the coalition in establishing new directions in an ever changing combat environment. I prefer to keep the War on Terror in Iraq, Iran, Syrian, anywhere but my backyard again. Oh XGman, the FREE flow of oil is currently costing about $3.50 in the US.
“You are fake Americans and you should go back to Britain where you probably immigrated here from.”
Grammar aside, jtw, I’m not a fake American, and niether are any of the other British on this site that have stood up for themselves, their brothers in arms and their country.
but what’s more, I AM in Britain right now in England to be presise, in the city of Lancaster. (that would be the real one, as opposed to the one in California, Phillidelphia, Texas, or any other US state.) Actually that’s a good point… How many of your cities are named after ours? New YORK? Birmingham,Alabama? Manchester, New Hampshire? hey, on that one you took a city AND a county name! any more? it’s intresting
I would like to take time out to say that I DO like the US and it’s peoples, it’s just so dis-heartening when you actually discover and talk to the ignorant ones.
Oz- I love the crack about the American Beer…
As a political science major and vietnam veteran the 9\11 “attack” never passed the “sniff test”. Now several books have been published directly linking the Bush administration to 9\11. Impeach hell, if not for our gutless congressional reps Bush and his cronies should be strung up from the nearest tree. By the way I am against capital punishment.
I have no problems with Scotland. Im sure after N. Ireland, it will be Scotland that wants independance. When I say Britain I say England. I dont consider Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland a part of Britain.
You never explained to me the tactic involved in dressing up like Arabs and killing Iraqi police. If these Iraqi police deserved it wouldnt it make sense to kill them without deception? I would like your explanation. Oh wait, you probably dont have freedom of speech. The King will have you thrown in the torture chamber somewhere in the church basement for treason and speaking out. Its ok I understand.
the reasons are not going to be told for why they went on that operation, most likely they were cracking down on a high ranking terrorist group to do with muktadar al sadr, the SAS then were confronted by iraqi police now maybe they didnt stop and the police started firing i dont know but most likely the SAS have gone in again and got the job done oh and quite a rescue mission wasnt it! last thing we have a queen not a king them laws are long gone and only a small number of Scots want independence probably as much as the south USA dont like the north which is probably not that much these days.
Another thing as another american mentioned, yes there was the revolutionary war but the USA has had more positive history with Great Britain than any other country in the world and still are today now the United Kingdom might seem a small country but it is within the top 5 most wealthy nations so yeh a good ally!
JTW,
Next time you feel like insulting my comrades in arms, have the balls to do it in person, not on a website.
You are without doubt one of the most ignorant idiots Ive ever had the misfortune to have to read about.
People like you do not deserve the protection of the Armed Forces of any the great nations fighting in Iraq. I dont care about the political arguments of should we be there or not, we are and our soldiers are paying with thier lives for the decisions of our politicians. You vote dont you? Then you are responsible!
As for your drivel about the IRA, stick to talking about what you know very little about, stay away from topicks you know nothing about and youll only look like a halfwit instead of the no-wits at all you really are.
So JTW,
i hope you have a better idea about the United Kingdom im glad you at least show some intrest for our nation unfortunately some of it is wrong scotland has its own country and its own national anthem but it is part of the UK, only a small percentage of people want independance from the rest of Great Britain probably as much as southern people want the confederate states of america today, and as for Northern Ireland they are more proud to be British than the English, as for Wales well thats practically England just a different name, i have mates in all 3 countrys thats also how i know, but you should have your own country to worry about. The US is a good place to live and visit but there is still alot of downsides to the country now im not saying Britain is better because it isnt.
Bill Hamilton a Viet Nam vet? If he was, he was probably one of the 5th columnist REMF’s who went around sturing up racial shit so the press could report on it. That’s assuming that he wasn’t actually driving a truck on a base back in the states.
Bill Hamilton,
I would think that someone with the education that you claim to have wouldn’t believe Michael Moore’s movie Fahrenheit 9/11. But I guess you still believe in Santa Claus to. (Sorry for ruining it for you). But while we’re on the subject, did you hear how if you fold the $20 bill to resemble a paper airplane you can see the two towers after they have been hit? I’m sure you and your conspiracy buddies can have a long talk about that one.
Its getting quiet on here
What they were obviously doing was gathering intelligence – which is one of the things the SAS does. If they had in fact been on a bombing/shooting mission, there would have been an extraction team standing by and they never would have been caught.
The important thing is for the US to not do what was done in Guatemala, El Salvador, etc. Train locals to kill persons who disagree with US companies. These Brits weren’t likely to be doing this for the CIA.
Yeh thats right if the SAS was on a shooting mission 1 they wouldnt of got caught and 2 there would have been more than 2 of them there would of been about 4, but keep it up the US & Britain are doing a good job.
Having read the clear,concise and dispassionate outline of UK actions by JTW, I can’t but agree with him that somebody is out of their mind, but it is not Britan JTW, may I suggest that you look in the mirror?
To that of the question posted by Desert Rat, right now i think our biggest concern is afghanistan over iraq simply because of the fact that bin laden is in the surrounding areas and most of the high ranking terrorists. This is my oppinion of what should now be done…America should set up around 4-5 major bases in the country and withdraw the troops into them and send some to afganistan. As for the Brits who have approx 8.500 troops in iraq should set up around 2 major bases in the south and withdraw around 2.000 troops to be sent to afghanistan.
People, you should not let JTW get to you so. This person is obviously a child or, if not, an adult with the mentality of a child and therefore should not be taken too seriously. On the other hand, I do agree that he needs to have his ass kicked.
To the Clueless asses who think I can be told what to believe, think and/or support by ANYONE!
You are IDIOTS and you have NO clue about me because if you did you NEVER would have said I am led anywhere by anyone.
Were I that type of person I would still be a Christian rather than taking the time-effort to study-research and become a proud Atheist.
Our actions in rmoving Saddam from power and freeing the Iraq people are a necessary part of our war on terror. Anyone who does not know that is either ignorant of SUFFICENT facts, OR they are too “F”ing STUPID to understand the facts. (Most probably the latter.)
Neil C. Reinhardt
JTW,
YOU ARE AN IDIOT!
The SAS is one of the best, if not the best military unit in the world.
The Brits are great!
Neil C. Reinhardt
And Steve,
Your IDIOT comments show it is you who is uninformed! I’ll bet you believe the world is flat and that gold comes from lead.
Your knowledge of Saddam & how he got into power proves that fat ugly stupid M. Moore leads you around by the nose.
What is you IQ level – 2?
Want to buy some Pacific beach front property in Kansas? As clueless as you are I am sure you would jump at that.
Neil C. Reinhardt
PS. I play beach volleyball every Sat. & Sun. on the courts at 29th & the Stand in Manhattan Beach, Ca. So do not think I hide behind my computer when I call people what they are. Please note I also use my full name.
Stop The Hating!
Well, Bill Hamilton, Bush had NOTHING to do with causing 9/11 and anyoone who says he did is an IDIOT!
I most certainly do not like Bush pushing his religion and some of his programs. Still, that does not mean I will stand by and let idiots like you lie about him.
Neil C. Reinhardt
Obama bin Laden and his merry men
looked into the wood
and what did they see