It’s official: After $450 billion, the Army’s quick-moving force of the future will be just about as slow as the one that’s around right now.
As I noted in June, one of the big ideas behind the Army’s massive modernization effort, Future Combat Systems, was to make American troops more mobile able to get around the world in a matter of days or weeks, instead of the months that are needed now.
The first step: slim down the service’s cannon and armored vehicles. Today, it takes a gargantuan C-17 or C-5 transport plane to lug a single, 32-ton Paladin 155 mm howitzer. Army planners wanted the Paladin’s next-gen replacement to weigh in at 19 tons or less so one could fit inside a much smaller C-130 transport plane, instead.
After dancing around the issue for a couple of months, the Army has now delcared that neither the Paladin replacement nor any other FCS vehicle is going to fit into a C-130, according to Defense News’ Greg Grant. And that “appears to abandon the fundamental rationale for FCS, which was intended to speed Army brigades to combat zones around the world within 96 hours.”
The Army created the FCS concept about five years ago, after long delays in deploying a small air-ground task force to the Balkans raised questions about the services strategic relevance. Under Gen. Eric Shinseki, the Armys former chief of staff, the service scrambled for lighter armored vehicles to replace heavy Abrams tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles…
[Army Secretary Francis] Harveys announcement appears to confirm that the Army does not have the technology to allow lighter vehicles to survive future anti-armor threats. This is in part a realization born of tough losses in Iraq, where 70-ton Abrams and Bradleys have been lost to roadside explosives and rocket-propelled grenades.
But more than FCS’ weight requirement has changed. As recently as last year, the program was slated to cost $92 billion. Then, suddenly, that estimate ballooned — first to $127 billion, and next to $145 billion. Finally, we were told that this gargantuan sum would only pay for transforming a third or less of the Army.
And what would be so different, after all that cash was spent? When the program first got started, the armored vehicles were not only going to be light — they were going to be electric-powered. And they were going to fire laser weapons. Now, all of that has been dropped, understandably.
But even the more basic changes have seemed near-impossible to pull off. The effort to get all soldiers on a common radio, for example, is facing massive restructuring, after the project’s main contractor, Boeing, seems to have flushed $5 billion and three years worth of work down the toilet.
“The government has not seen sufficient evidence of the contractor teams understanding of the scale of integration required to ultimately achieve the program requirements,” the Army told Boeing in an April letter. “Nor has the industry team displayed sufficient ability to estimate a cost and schedule baseline and rigorously manage to that baseline.“
In other words, the radio project has become slow and bloated. Just like the rest of FCS.
{ 109 comments… read them below or add one }
This is like in the 50′s when they were gonna make a family of light, medium and heavey tanks that would be alike. They even had plans to use eletric motors. They never did it and I think only a few vechicles of thise program made it into service.
Good Morning Folks,
The answer to the Army’s “Fat Combat Systems”, I love it, is to make a C-130 even bigger then the C-130H how about a six engine C-130J, like in “Jumbo”.
It’s been well known to everone outside of the uniformed bureaucrats that the “Military Industrial Complex” charge by the pound. Fatter is better, better is more profits, more profits means happy shareholders and that translates into Votes.
Since most of the “FCA” is now being contracted for and will be built my foreign companies, a kind of “Foreign Aid Welfare” for Global Investors, all the good parts and all the faults will be avaible to any future enemies, I think serious consideration should be given to “Comachieing it”
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
“Stewart’s Platoon”
Yeah thats a good point Byron.
Bring back towed artillery, its a lot lighter. Armored vehicles are on the way out. They’re death traps. Bring in better personnel armor, vests etc., and that stupid helmet has got to go.
http://www.baesystems.com/dsei/newsreleases/sep/130905news187.htm
A new transport concept for the revolutionary BAE Systems M777 155mm howitzer, now in full rate production for the US Marine Corps and US Army, is being showcased at DSEi.
Developed in response to a specific UK MoD requirement (LIMAWS (G)) the M777 Portee system combines the ground breaking strengths of the worlds lightest 155mm howitzer with a purpose built vehicle developed by Supacat.
The integrated system has been extensively evaluated by the UK MoD as part of the LIMAWS (G) assessment phase, during which both tactical and strategic mobility were assessed and over 350 rounds fired in test conditions.
Nick Wilson, head of business development Indirect Fire Systems says, M777 performed well throughout the evaluation period demonstrating a unique combination of firepower and mobility with the potential to make a significant contribution to the MoDs medium weight capability requirements.
The 8×6 Portee System is a new vehicle design utilising suspension technology developed for Supacat’s highly successful High Mobility Truck (HMT) ‘family. These vehicles are now entering service in 2-axle and 3-axle form with both the UK and US armed forces. They offer a significant improvement in mobility over other wheeled military vehicles. The HMT suspension system makes the Portee ideally suited to operation over difficult and demanding terrain.
This Portee vehicle has the capability to transport the howitzer onto C-130 aircraft, amphibious craft as well as move as a compact system for longer road or cross country journeys. On reaching the combat area the howitzer is quickly dismounted, allowing it to be towed rapidly into and out of action and up to 3 ammunition containers can be carried in its place allowing a total of over 70 readily available rounds.
The HMT has been selected as the universal platform for a number of roles in the British Army, including mobile communications Ground Station, EW Ground Station, UAV Ground Station, lightweight mobile artillery platform (rocket) and for other specialized applications.
The M777 is the worlds first 155mm howitzer weighing less than 10000lbs (4218kg) achieved through innovative design and the use of titanium and aluminium alloys. It is designed specifically to meet the growing requirement for flexible and accurate artillery fire support being capable of rapid re-deployment by battlefield helicopters and of being towed by lightweight limber or utility vehicles. M777 is fully developed and in production and the first 2 US Marine Corps units to be equipped have taken delivery to achieve an initial operational capability (IOC) early in the New Year.
I feel you all are overlooking the progress that has been made in this program so far. Please check this page out. http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=7822
5 years of development and billions of dollars wasted. sounds like just about everything the decepticon administration has done.
FCS was touted as a $14.9 Billion dollar program. I resigned from Boeing a year ago (and also a 20 year Army veteran) after feverously trying to get on the program as a Training Manager… Boeing seems to rather have a bunch of over educated Engineers with NO Army experience rather than someone with only 20 years in uniform on the program. On top of that, they have only had two CEO’s fired for improprietary actions along with a CFO and General Manager in just over 2 years.
SAIC seems to be following suite with programs associated with DARPA and the Warfighter. They are hell bent on building an ‘empire’ rather than putting people in place that can rapidly test, evaluate and deploy technologies that can and will save soldiers and marines currently in theater!
My question is; When will these companies put their own bottomline (profit to the shareholders) on hold and start delivering what they promise? Also, WITHOUT jacking up the price ‘as they develop’?
I’ve worked all kinds of electrical construction work. Have you ever seen a government or defense contractor work? They give a low bid and then build by the plans precisely even if they know , stop, espescially if they know it’s wrong. The charges for changeing and adding stuff staggers the mind. Change orders, built in bad supervision and designs that they get paid to correct, with overtime. Spending 5 billion and scrapping a project is proper procedure for what’s called “Pork Barrel.” Lobbyists made out of former generals that know who and how to screw the government they swore to protect. Come back Crazy Horse and do it again.
Hairclippers to boot laces, weapon, vehicles and tolet seat, all are built by the lowest bidder, who will charge the greatest amount.
Remember these Ferengi Rules of Acquisition. The contractors do.
1. Once you have their money, never give it back.
8. Small print leads to big risk.
10. Greed is Eternal.
34. War is good for business.
82. The flimsier the product, the higher the price.
99. Trust is the biggest liability.
211. Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don’t hesitate to step on them.
239. Never be afraid to mislabel a product.
248. Deep down, everyone is a Ferengi.
Well all, I have worked at DFD ft knox and there are somethings o be said about FCS. Remember people making the decisions dont wear stripes, most of them never have and some have not been with a line unit for over 10 yeras. When you do submit feedback from experience or from the field the expert testimony gets cut up and used how they want it, not what it was intended for. The AC is depicted best in the movie pentagon wars.
Hi there
Give us a thought down in South Africa, most of our troops have HIV/AIDS, so if you Americans think that you are governed by fools , read a little about exactly what’s happening to our once formidable military . Sincerly yours Richard
these aren’t tanks. these are bunkers with motors. what the hell are we doing designing these, and how the hell are we supposed to fuel them? internal nuclear engines?!
The army has gotten some of the new vehicles out that are able to be transported by C130′s with a very easy change to the vehicle. this means the Vehicle is combat ready as soon as it hits the ground. As far as it proving it self it has been doing that since we invaded Iraq. I was a crew member in the vehicle for 3 years, with very little complaints. It is armored up to 50 Cal AP rounds and carrys a 50 and MK-19
Just wanted to reply to son schut-
Crusader- what are you thinking. return of the vietnam are firebase concept but instead of 10-15 mile arty that we used then, try up to 70 miles with the crusader gun. as for the whole – shoot and scoot heavily armored guns are for enemies that can launch a radar directed counter battery fire. Anything else and they are excessive. like in Iraq.
the quality news is good. How can I enroll my self in army please I’m in Africa, precisely in Central African Republic.
Anethin
Sassemawa
E_mail : a_sassemawa@yahoo.fr
How about the Army just leave it to the Marine expeditionary units out there to handle things, or raise their own prepositioned force in readiness modeled on the USMC.
To the gentlemen who thought a C130-J would be a good thing to build: you’re in luck. The C130J already exists.
AS THE MAN SAID, OUR LARGER TANKS ARE BEING TAKEN OUT IN IRAQ BY AN IED. ONE OF THE BIGGEST EXPLOSIONS WE HAD OVER HERE WAS TWELVE 155MM HOWITZER ROUNDS. IT PUT A HUGE CRATER IN THE MIDDLE OF MOSUL. IMAGINE WHAT THAT WILL DO TO A “SMALLER TANK”. THE STRYKERS OUT HERE WITH MORE PROTECTIVE GEAR FOR AN IED OR RPG ARE GETTING PRETTY DAMAGED,ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU WORK OR HOW MUCH MONEY IT WILL COST, OR EVEN HOW MUCH MONEY PEOPLE MAKE OFF OF IT ALL. ITS ABOUT PROTECTING MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS OUT HERE FIGHTING FOR PEOPLE IN THE USA. THESE CONTRACTORS NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT AND GET OFF THEIR REARS. START COMMING UP WITH THINGS THAT CAN HELP US WITH SEARCHING FOR AN IED. ARMOR WON’T HELP ANY MORE THAN IT DOES NOW.
if any seat open for indian then you call me iam a 1st year collage student
I have always been wary of the “lighter” Army concept. It just doesn’t make sense to me. The Army dabbled with the “light” concept as far back as WWII. Remember the Sherman tank? Had the nickname “Purple Heart Box,” “Ronson Lighter,” and such. It was much faster, lighter, and more mobile than it’s German counterparts, and got destroyed much quicker in tank to tank battles.
The United States does have a mobile, light, and lethal forces. It’s called the US Marine Corps.
Lets keep the Army in the role it is traditionaly best at, crushing enemies with massive, heavy, and overwhelming force.
Robotics will make this problem go away. Envision a battery controlled by a crew 500 miles away, with the crew able to see and sense much more than today’s crew can.
Another vision: an infantry unit with an embedded crew that controls supporting artillery using HUD.
Hey Kurt, where’ve you been hiding? ;)
IMHO, the bigger fallacy of the FCS is not that it’s growing beyond the C-130, but that they ever seriously considered moving and supplying large armored formations by air to begin with.
I think napalm would help. BRING IT BACK!
I like Kurt’s ideas on holding accountable and persecuting those people in the industries who know fraud is going on and are willingly a part of it.
But so long as it is those corporate giants making the biggest campaign contributions to the elected officials who decide whose programs get taxpayer money, we’ll never see them prosecuted for any wrongdoing.
Reading this stuff is scary. It makes one wonder how, if our corporate leadership and engineering departments are so inadequate, corrupt, inept (and several other choice words), how has America ever managed to get as far as we have in the world?
There are so many decent men and women wearing the service uniforms of this great nation, yet we are being metaphorically spit upon when those corporations try and pawn off ineffective and overpriced weapons on us, and they spit on the nation when they bilk the citizen taxpayers out of so much money for a project that delivers so little. These corporations aren’t institutes of patriotism: they’re nothing more more than power-hungry people trying to justify their greed. It isn’t about cost overruns; it’s about their own personal selfishness. And it’s the rest of us who’ll suffer for it: us troops who’ve had to use those poorly-designed and ill-equipped systems, and the people whose lives we may not be able to protect and save because we only have such poorly-designed, reduced capability systems with which to do it.
But what do those corporate execs care? They aren’t the ones fighting and dying out there, depending on that equipment to keep them alive.
As far as the FCS and its inability to be flown by C130s; I saw that problem coming years ago when they first revealed all the more an “improvement” the C-130J really was over the older models. It’s all they can do to get 20 tons of anything any decent distance without in flight refueling. The government never should have allowed the C-130J program, but instead went for a more capable program, like an American equivalent of the 30+ ton capacity European A400M. Our FCS vehicles would be much better protected weighing 30 tons than weighing only 19-20 tons.
“Currant aircraft” I believe Howard had it right with the spruce goose! We still own the plans, I say build it. Opponents will say you can’t get it into a desert forward area like Afgan and Iraq. I disagree with that backward thinking. Flood both areas, like New Orleans, and land anywhere, taxi to a dry spot and shoot.
I read and looked at the concept at the website in Britain. This “BAE Systems M777 155mm howitzer” really looks sturdy. I wonder how many bakery clerks and bar tenders with “EID’s” it would take to put this and it’s 70 rounds out of commission? Thereby leaving said 70 rounds to be used in more “EID’s!” Light and fast have nothing to do with the armored material used by the forces today. Yes, I have seen the main battle tank in the film clips, able to go 60 miles and hour. But for how long, thirty miles? What is the range of it? Stick a rock twenty feet high in front of it and there you sit! In test phase 350 rounds have been fired. In this test, is anyone firing back, at night, from mountain terrain? I have no problem with building test beds that cost millions and billions. It’s great if you have the money. However when hummers are made out of plasic and canvas and body armour can’t be found in supplies, then I have a problem, Houston! What’s the purpose of armour besides, if the man does not keep his head down?
“A new transport concept for the revolutionary BAE Systems M777 155mm howitzer, now in full rate production for the US Marine Corps and US Army, is being showcased at DSEi.
Developed in response to a specific UK MoD requirement (LIMAWS (G)) the M777 Portee system combines the ground breaking strengths of the worlds lightest 155mm howitzer with a purpose built vehicle developed by Supacat.
The integrated system has been extensively evaluated by the UK MoD as part of the LIMAWS (G) assessment phase, during which both tactical and strategic mobility were assessed and over 350 rounds fired in test conditions.”
Like just about everything else the military has come up with lately, such as the Seawolf SSN, RAH-66 Commanche, Crusader, and (probably) the F-22, FCS will end up in the scrap heap. They’ll spend billions designing and refining, modifying and testing, hemming, hawing and delaying, only to cut funding and cancel the program in the end because it’s (SURPRISE!) too expensive. Then they’ll start over again with something else. That “something else” will also prove too expensive, and they’ll cancel that program and start over again and again. For crying out loud! Just PICK something and carry it through to the end. When it’s all said and done, our military will made up of paper planes and tanks. Everything’s on paper, but nothing’s in the field.
I am amazed that they could not even come up with a plan for a uniform radio system. What were the specification that the contractor was instructed to use? With new technology making it smaller should allow for the construction of a system that could be placed in different adaptive boxes to fit in different vehicles but all using the same systems.
How an you get more people to read this review
“Reading this stuff is scary. It makes one wonder how, if our corporate leadership and engineering departments are so inadequate, corrupt, inept (and several other choice words), how has America ever managed to get as far as we have in the world?”
Well, speaking as a former member of one of those engineering departments, I can this is largely untrue.
The problems with cost growth comes from many sources:
-The massively difficult problem of estimating how hard it will be to build something that’s never been built before – especially something as complex as a weapon system.
-Services who don’t know what they really want, or change their mind on a frequent basis.
-Congressmen who feed pet pork in their own districts.
-Lowest bidder awards that force contractors to intentionally underbid just to stay in business.
-Unrealistic expectations from all.
-And yes, optimistic contractors who seriously (or sometimes not so seriously) think they can deliver on unrealistic promises.
A good NCO corp is worth any weapons system. Leadership in the field is what counts.
I think the problem may not be with the equipment we have, its the mission we are given. Assigning the most formidible military the world has ever know to rebuilding and police duties is silly.
What ever happened to the ideal of hit ‘em hard, hit ‘em fast, keep hittinig’em till they quit? Having put 28 years in the AF, and seeing good aircraft mothballed for newer stuff with ‘more bells and whistles’, under the guise of fewer but better’ is better economy just doesn’t make sense. Especially when the average Joe-Doe walks up to you and blows himself and you to little pieces. I understand that we need the oil in the Middle East and don’t want to tick any of our ‘alllies’ off by exacting extreme warfare on the general population who refuse to cooperate with cleaning out their own country, but that is the only thing those folks will know. Put the fear of being blown to little pieces into them, and level a few villages/cities that are being used as launching points, then they might understand the true nature of warfare.
Until we get the proper forces in the AOR and with sufficient materiels to mop the place up, we will continue to hear daily of Joe so-and-so suicide bomber killing 10-60 people at a whack!
Let’s get the contractors who are wasting billions of dollars on junk that won’t work out in the field to use the junk they produce, and see how fast they come up with something that will work. A 30-ton tank is a lot of metal that makes a very large target. If an RPG can knock off a tread, then it is a large piece of metal that is sitting still. Why not clear the roadways back at least a mile away, and install armed observation towers along the routes of travel to kill the “insurgents” who are planting the IEDs? Why give them any room to roam about freely? Confiscate all the cars in the AOR, and then only the good guys and the terrorists will have them. Put un place an IFF system on the good guy vehicles and any thing else is an enemy. Blow it to little pieces before it can do the same to you!
This is a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation. Humvees were supposed to be for fast attack and recon missions. Then they started getting blown up by car bombs so they up armored them making them slower.
There has to be a balance. There is a need for speed in some situations and a need for heavy armor in others. As long as perfection is the standard, we will always be deamed as a failure. That is until a Democrat takes over the White House. Then our military will be perfect and never used.
I think we need to step back and figure out what types of conflict are we going to be involved in for the next 20 years. I contend the following:
1. No one will challenge us man-to-man
(or army-to-army).
2. If we don’t have local support
(and I mean 90% or more), fuggit about it.
3. Swartzkoff (sp?) was right–massive response
stomps out resistance quickly.
4. Wishing ain’t planning. Either understand
who you are fighting, why, and what you plan
to do after you defeat them or else stay home.
This so-called lighter, faster army is fine if you only want to jump in, kill a bunch of folks, and leave. Otherwise, it’s counter productive if you have to remain to pick up the pieces.
Americans will only tolerate about a year of prolonged conflict. After that you had better be looking to bail. GW is going to drag the Republican party down the toilet if he hangs onto Iraq until 2007. Watch next year’s midterm elections. You’ll see a significant number of republicans distancing themselves from the mess.
Maybe we should look at how the Israeli army does it. They have a heck of a lot more experience in dealing with these type of conflicts.
Aarron:
If we had had artillery supporting our troops at Tora Bora and the Operation Anaconda operation we may have accomplished something.
What the SecDef and apparently you do not realize is that Airpower can kill properly identified targets but it does little to suppress the enemy to allow your forces to close with and destroy. That is what Arty is for.
Instead of being pinned down by a few snipers our forces could have closed with and killed or captured the enemy. As it was they mostly slipped away to fight another day.
“Because tanks don’t kill airplanes, nor do they kill guerillas.” quote from Kurt above.
Armor in general is extremely important in a Guerilla war. Infantry forces are easy to delay and demobilize (pin down) with a couple of stay behind snipers. In the offensive motorized and armored formations have the firepower, mobility, and stuff (food, ammo, water) to move and win. Infantry forces do not.
Invariably infantry formations get ambushed and then delayed. Result – the enemy is able to change clothes and hide.
Armor formations can take an ambush, and still manuver against the light forces opposing them and outmanuver and destroy them. The enemy will always be ambushing us. We rarely succeed in ambushing gurrilla forces operating in their own backyard. Outside of Rambo movies it is a rare occurance. We should accept this and equip our forces to take the first hit, and react aggressively and destroy those who hit them. Yes infantry, but armored infantry.
It was disheartening to read of my former unit 1/7 Marines trying to seal the border with Syria as straight leg infantry. They took many losses from booby traps and didn’t accomplish much.
Smaller faster lighter is bunk. Pure and simple. Just look at what it causes our forces to do. I read all the time of US Forces patrolling at 50 mph in Iraq in marginally armored vehicles. They drive at 50 mph to avoid death. But they accomplish nothing but giving the Muj target practice.
You have to be armored up enough to take the first hit. Because again we will always take the first hit.
It really gives us nothing to be able to get there fast and then lose. That is what smaller faster lighter really means.
I worked on FCS and was shocked at the game Boeing has played from day one. The game is to spend the pentagon’s money as fast as possible- BILLIONS, before FCS is terminated. Boeing has given out key subcontracts worth BILLIONS without ever visiting the contractor to see if they are able to design or build what they proposed on paper. Unbelievable. Also, there is almost nothing from prior or current programs that is planned to be reused, and of all the 18 platforms, only the Firescout Helicopter (Class IV UAV in FCS parlance) exists in some form. GD on the other hand will benefit greatly when the program is cancelled, so they are dragging their feet BIG TIME in developing the FCS MGVs (Manned Ground Vehicles). One GD guy told me laughingly that internally FCS is referred to as the Future Cancelled System. “Everyone knows nothing will ever really get built.”
The biggest issue is that the Defense Industry has loss the recipe to design anything, especially big things. Most of the Engineers working FCS have almost no relevant experience. Boeing FCS people are ex-Space Station types for the most part, and the vehicle electronice people are ex-layed-off telecom workers who were happy to find a job, even in Defense. The Engineering on the program is a complete mess.
Congress needs to cancel this massively wasteful program sooner rather than later. It will be a huge embarrassment otherwise. Boeing has had the contract going on 4 years and there is little to show for these initial BILLIONS.
I see JTRS (another botched Army program run by Boeing), which is the digital radio backbone of FCS, is also now in deep trouble — so perhaps when it fails it will be a convenient time for FCS to be cancelled.
Katz:
Drop me a line, willya? defense-AT-defensetech-DOT-org.
nms
This may be irrelevant to this discussion, but I think SnoopDoug needs to be keeping a closer eye on the things China is doing! With our military stretched thin by the Middle East & natural diasters, I would not be surprised at anything they might try, in the next decade (if not sooner), including going army to army/navy to navy.
I think the answer to that is, a Helium-3 Reactor power Mobile Suit. A Lenth of 12 1/2 feet, 37 1/2 feet wide, and standing 58 feet tall. Armed with sheild, partical beam canon, sabor, and or dual gattling gun. More effective then that of a jet and tank.
i will say just pay more money to the military people to nither stay or joint.
As far as the radios, why the heck don’t they just head over to Radio Shack or Motorolla and ask “How do we do this?” Save a lot of time and money by just heading down to the local mall.
As to the Crusader? Don’t forget that one of its strong points was the ability to put 8 rounds downrange with a simultaneous impact on target. That’s a hell of a lot of fire support to back up the troops who find themselves in an ambush.
Having been a commo sergeant, the current radio situation is flat out rediculious. Cell phones are more capable than what we are fielding. Best idea, scrap the radios and issue cells. Cheaper and the tech is already proven, just need to raise a few towers and you’re in business.
All the armor and goodies in the world will not win wars. Only one thing has ever won a war and this has been proven time and again in history. That is the infantry. Aviation is fine for combat support and that is all it is good for on a battle field, same with armor and related items. You want to help the military? Enhance the infantry’s ability to kill and destroy the enemy, without getting killed themselves. Everything else is just gravy. Keep to the basics, the goodies are fine, but better equipted and trained infantry is far more effective.
I like the mobile suit idea. Right out of the book , not the movie of “Starship Troopers” A new weapons system out of a book by Dale Brown would be kewl. Either S.I.D. from “Act of War” or The TINMAN battle armor from his other series of books.
S.I.D. could be operated by a human pilot inside, or by remote control.
If you look at a lot of the most successful ideas, you’ll notice that its the guys in the field that come up with them. I think a better way to do things is to come up with a developlement budget on the brigade or division level. On the Army level, standard communication protocols, software compatability and ammo types would be defined.
Instead of massive programs – the army would have development/consultant programs to purchase “development units” from several defense contractors. Developement units would prefunded allotments of tehnical and developement assistance – for items to be defined by the brigades.
Where the army would “buy” so many “development units”. Each brigade would have its own allotments of development units. Each brigade would then create a unit needs(or product improvement) requirement, defense contractors would bid for the right to produce the projects. Brigades would use the “development units” as curency.
Each brigade would be allowed to develope their own prototype vehicals, and equipement. They would be responsible for the logistics, supply and training. This requirement would keep them honest as readiness standards would apply to the expiremental stuff as well. Idealy each Brigade would have its own expiramental subunits to work out the bugs.
Annually or biannually you would have the brigades special equipement compete against each other. Winners would become Army level allowed equipment.
This would allow a steady stream of user defined equipment that is born troop proven. I wager, if you incorporate sufficent incentives for equipment that reduces costs (brigade level bonuses to all troops) you could create some healthy savings. The troops are smart, and know what they need.
Personally, I think this could be argued in anyway.
I mean, I would like to think perhaps that the billions of dollars lost for nothing was actually spent on finding things that dont work…. I mean, it’s true right? but at the same time im kind of disappointed we really have nothing to use at the moment.
despite all these setbacks though, in my opinion which is contrary to some opinions here it seems like, we still need an armored force to conduct our military operations.
one of the key things our military has over all other militaries of the world is mobilty. we have the ability to strike anywhere, anyplace, anytime that we want because we have that mobility which is so unavailable in all but the most advanced military forces. however, sometimes that mobility will make us enter really really hot areas. after all, you kill a problem by taking out it’s source… and sometimes that means entering the core of a real hotzone… and if you’re riding a humvee just because it’s fast and has reasonable protection (including the uparmored humvees), you’re going to take casualties along the way.
now, i dont mean that we should have something like an Abrams to conduct our MOUT operations. no, that would be mislocation of valuable military resources. personally, i wish the focus would be more based on vehicles designed SPECIFICALLY for MOUT operations. i suppose that is kind of the problem we’re seeing with the FCS program, but at the same time, I think the FCS is trying to tackle too much at the same time. However, if the army decides that it absolutely has to combine all these features, then i say that we must be prepared to face huge costs in money. afterall, what other nation has such an arsenal?
So why dont we just nuke the whole place all day long, wait til dark and kill anything that glows? It’s really a worthless society, they give nothing to the world… except oil. And we pay dearly for that. So I ask myself when I pay as much as I do for gas (around $3 right now), why is that area so poor? Destroy everything we dont neeeed or want, take the oil, and control it. Then the US can pay for all the stupid shit it wastes its money on.
Well put tj
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Actions speak louder than words.” ”
” For every evil under the sun , there is a remedy or there is none . If there is one , try to find it ; if there is none , never mind it .”
1- Legal adviser for Fattouch institutions under the supervision of the minister and parliamentary deputy,Mr. Nicola Fattouch.(2003)
Works in Daher- Al-baidar a-
b- The connections with Armenia. – Legal advisor for
c- Importation and exportation of iron
2- Legal advisor for Samir Ibrahim Institution ( electric and home appliances ) 2002
3- Legal advisor for Hawli Institution for healthy goods ( Word Vision characteristics)1997
4- Legal advisor for Medici Da Natalia ( Clothes fabrication ) 2004
5- Purchasing manager for Al-Badii Calligraphy and Drawing books since 1996
6- Legal advisor for Antoine Elias Company (gaz commercial) 2002
Activities :
:” God helps them who help themselves. ”
1-Cooperation with Rochville University in order to find opportunities to develop the education of the Lebanese society through offering the suitable means for the specialized in order to continue their studies.2003
2-Cooperation with the Lebanese Social Association ,through volunteering ,in order to eliminate illiteracy by training courses and giving degrees.2002
Hobies:
” If the blind lead the blind both shall fall into the ditch.”
1-Reading magazines that are concerned with weapon deals.
2- Reading magazines that are concerned with property deals.
3- Reading legal magazines.
4-Basket ball and swimming.
Reference
Hope deferred made the heart sick” ”
.
1-The minister and parliamentary deputy, Mr. Nicola Fattoush.
2-The lawyer and Former judge, Mr. Moussa Kallas.
the cowboy must work in tandem with the rest of the world. terrorism is a world threat not just for america. we must yeild a little on our self will to do it alone and work with the world community to get the job done. we have isolated ourselves from the world and things will only get worse as we are seen as a cowboy rampaging thru the world doing our own thing. there are not many allies we can count on to aid us in our endevour to end world lawlessness. we do have the best military in the world and that is not just the equipment but the skill and training of every warrior. we could do the same thing with a leaner force structure with pointed targets instead of diluting ourselves by spreading us thin all across the world. we have taken on a job that will break our nation financially. it is only a matter of time. God bless America!!
I don’t mind bigger combat systems as long as we remember the consequences of Somolia when we thought that a tank was too heavy and difficult to manuever the streets of an urban area. Tanks Bradleys, and any varient of armor vehicles will save lives as long as they are included in the power projection estimate to get them to the area(s) most needed.
For that matter, once we transport a tank to a specific continent we might as well sustain it there or sell it to a trustworthy ally.
I did some consulting for Lockheed-Martin and was shocked at how they “worked” there. A manager told me that the entire aerospace industry works as so: sit on your butt until the deadline comes up, then work your butt off to get it done sometime near the deadline.
Doesn’t speak well to careful research and development. You can’t properly QC when you’re just trying to slap something together in order to make your milestone deadline so you can rake in more millions or billions of dollars to advance to the next segment of the project.
I like Kurt Plummer’s idea– HANG ‘EM HIGH!
Matt U
Erik Tester said it best – Use the USMC for this stuff.
In any other endeavor, you always take your elite group and give them the best equipment. Not so in the U.S. Military. Let’s equip our Marines with the stuff the Army has already played with and broken… MRE’s that are so old the Soul Chickens won’t touch them, and just enough funding to get by.
Using the Army for things like this is akin to slicing cheese with an executioners axe… will it cut? Sure. Good luck making a sandwich.
If China would hurry up and invade their neighbors, the Army would have their job back and we could be done watching this 600 pound gorilla identity crisis.
Just dust off some M551′s and shut up about it. Honestly, start building P-51′s again, slap a Commodore 64 inside, and BLAMO, instant economical anti-terror weapon. Instead of the teeth on the nose art, go with Pissed off Porky the Pig, and you’d have Jihadi’s heading for the hills.
The use of the Military as buildt by any country or nation or individual (as a dictator)is still in good standing as long as such an armed force is placed in the field in actual excercise of offense or defense ove the authority investing in Military Force. Now that the corollation forces have f—th up that which one F—th up man had under his controll (Military Force), (offense and/or Defense) of his invested authority just Hang This removed Mother F–ker high and engage the field in what the military in itself is in its fact made for.
I agree that the grunts in the field should be the ones that decide what weapons systems should be built. I also agree we should just nuke those ragheads and drill right through a sheet of glass. That way we control all that oil. I also think that all combat units should have the same type of gear, ie Navy Seabees still use the 45, no other branch has had it for almost 2 decades.
Well, is this 120mm mortar on an APC chassis a ‘replacement’ which is supposed to make up for a 155mm cannon, with higher explosives in it’s warheads?
Probably they are trying to sell it on somekind of ‘super airburst’ a feature gimic in pushing a replacement for the exellen under barrell 40mm ‘mini mortar’ that the m-203 features. I belive that they are trying to sell it as being more effecive in the new 20/25mm under tube to replace the 40mm tube that is under the great m-16/5.56mm carbine/203 models, so good that even the British SAS uses them in preferrence to other weapons similar in the world…
Truthfully, I cannot see how a munition half as thin (the up coming 20mm under tube that I talked of), can be more destructive even if it does have a capability to explode in mid air.
Infact, this will add to more calculations as to at what range the thing will detonate, and under fire, I would rather choose a model where after a bit of training I can tell from the angle of my 203, just where that 40mm mini mortar round will plop, instead of fiddling arround with range’s!
I know that the range of a mortar is nowhere near to a real artillery piece, and again the troops on the ground will be missing that extra range when they are out of it, and under enemy fire!
Yours truly, Mr Poundr, Helsinki, Finland.
I saw this thing from the get-go @ Fort Lewis’s 1-14 CAV (Rista Squadron) for two years (2000-2002). I knew there was no freakin way the Army could pull off a 96 hour “go anywhere” deployment. That is the main reason I left and went reserve.
Hello Guy’s I’m new here, how can I get e-mail’s telling that the thread I wrote on has had more people write onto it???
I would love to get into some discussion with you guy’s!
I have been writing in armchairgeneral’s forum’s about military history, and terrorism and mil tech, I went to the Finnish army, in a unit that trained in Urban warfare and anti terrorism, and MP skills.
I have always quoted this site if I have read something interesting to share over there.
I hope I will get into some interesting forums here too!
Mr Poundr.
Helsinki, Finland.
e-mail nels1970@hotmail.com
I think we need more towed weapons in the field for a faster moving force. I agree the grunts should be ask for ideas on how they can be better equiped to move faster. The closed armored machine now can be death traps for a lot of the personnel in side, but walking everyway like in my day was slow. Helio lifts from time to time would speed thing up but were more easily a death for all on board. Light armored vehicles I think would be a good thing to look in to.
I think we need more towed weapons in the field for a faster moving force. I agree the grunts should be ask for ideas on how they can be better equiped to move faster. The closed armored machine now can be death traps for a lot of the personnel in side, but walking everyway like in my day was slow. Helio lifts from time to time would speed thing up but were more easily a death for all on board. Light armored vehicles I think would be a good thing to look in to.
How’s this for a suggestion: a 21st century periscope for those firefight situations where you’d rather press a button behind a strong wall than stick your gun around a corner, aim at the muzzle flash in the distance and pray you hit something.
What you’ll need is: A) some kind of lite, cheap, flexible viewing/targetting device (kind of like you’ll find poking out of vents in most girls’ change rooms); B) a target-searchable mortar-like round (imagine a bucketload of vertically-fired supermini tomahawks); C) a handful of GPS puppies.
Here’s what you do: 1) Either drop the GPS puppies from aircraft across the battlefield or throw them randomly over the wall (this is to aid target triangulation). 2) Poke your handy flexible targetting reticule through a hole, around a corner — somewhere inconspicious, find a target you like and paint it with an infrared laser or something nonvisible. 3) Hit the fire button. An image tracking program can triangulate the precise location of the target from the puppies and the gps located in your reticule. 4) Wait and hope the target has life insurance.
Ok, here’s one for you guys….$450 Billion to make a more transportable armored vehicle…..wasted. How many transport aircraft would $450 Billion buy, that could transport the armored vehicles we have now?!?!? Yeah, I know that’s too simple for politicians.
Also, I know somebody mentioned Lockheed’s negative side as a contractor, but unlike the FCS program, Lockheed actually BUILDS things. They screw around a bit, all contractors do, but Lockheed has a history of getting it done! Put Lockheed as the primary contractor, they may not have much armored ground vehicle experience, but at least they’ll have a prototype to show for it.
What someone said about infantry is not designed to occupy some place is true. The military is designed to go somewhere, kick some ass and leave, not stay and baby sit the natives. They are not trained or designed to do that.
I read a saying once that stated to win a war, you must be willing to be worse then your enemy. I think this is probably true. Being “nice” to the country we are occupying, gives each of it’s inhabitants the choice to be peaceful or aggressive toward our troops. However, brutally crushing any resistance will have less US casualties. Granted it wouldn’t be popular with the rest of the world, but historically speaking it’s worked more often then not.
On a side note here’s a little irony for you guys to think about…we get in more trouble for “embarrassing and humiliating” enemy combatants then we do for accidentally killing civilians…am I the only one who thinks that is ridiculous?
Just my two cents.
Incidently a new C-17 only costs just over $200 million. $450 Billion/$200 Million = over 2000 C-17′s….hint, hint….
FIX BAYONETS!!!
If “smaller lighter faster” is better, it applies to business practices as well. Companies like Boeing are like a 200 ton tank, it’s too big to move, so it isn’t getting anywhere. Its objective is not to produce any product, its objective is to get as much money as possible by any means neccisary.
I agree with the idea of light-armored transports to get the infantry to the conflict, and putting more armor on the men. If you want a fast response infantry is the way to go, everything else is for supporting the infantry.
The infantry as it exists deas not have enough staying power however. Legs and feet are too vulnerable with the present armor system. Men in uniform that I have talked with have stated that most injuries are to legs and feet due to small IEDs and mines. In addition it is far too easy for infantry to be pinned down out of fear of taking a hit.
I am an independant contractor for prototyping and product development, and make medieval armor as a hobby. Medieval armorers long ago solved the problem of shaping rigid armor plates over every inch of the body in an unencombering manner. Doing the same thing with modern armor materials does not present much of a technical challenge compared to current armoring methods, it just needs someone to actually do it.
I would love to make armor that would enable a soldier to take a rifle hit anywhere without becoming a liability as a casualty. If someone has funding ties and wants to make this a reality, please let me know.
mhajicek@plethora.net
I believe the Pallidans, the Abrams, the Bradleys, the Humvees and APCs, et al. are tried and true. The question is: why aren’t the lives lost paying for something? Oil perhaps. We don’t need money spent on imaginary weapons, we need a return on the flesh and blood investment already made!
listen, the army has good vehicles in it’s inventory and some bad ones. Nothing is perfect, but heavy tanks are good, humvees are bad. Here are the reasons why humvees are bad, with all the new up armor they put in them, the computer junk that is in the passager seat, makes the vehicle crowded and almost impractical. i can’t say much do to opsec, but what i can say is sitting sideways in up-armor humvees and trying to be able to engage an enamy threw a 4 inch gap(the up-armor sliding windows) is nearly impossible, soldiers do die from ied’s but they also die from trying to get out of the vehicle while being ambushed. The humvee needs to be replaced by something like the germans have( not there mercades box car toy) but there up-armored personel carrier. It is alot like the stryker but with 4 wheels not 6. I shoot mlrs which are what i know is the most expensive tracked vehicle out there, our job is rarely used but when it is needed, we can do the same job with 6 launchers as what it takes a hole battalion of abrams or howitzeers to do. It’s really effective and flawless. Tube arty is old school, rockets and missles is where the future is at. well gotta go.
Has anyone on here heard of the Challenger 2 main battle tank?
The oxy-moron “Military Intelligence” factor is still lacking from all the back room deals that are made with LOBBIERS that offer jobs for the retired COS officers. The enlisted men are always expendable to control overpopulation and the job market of the US.
Read the article about the destruction of the VA at the home page for MILITARY.com. Do you ever think that they care about the guys that really put their asses on the line?
Got out after 12 years of crap and saluting drunk officers.
The worse thing about reading critiques about the military is when the writer only goes maybe 20% into it … FCS is more than the “Stryker Lite” … the secret is not in caliber of the guns or the type engines it uses … it is a new approach to warfare. The army will now fight more like a series of B Teams linked by the top technology in the world. However, there is one flaw … after 10 years of talking about transformation the Army is still held hostage by the US Air Force and its 1950s era “workhorse” — the C-130 transport. I have always wondered why we are buying a fleet of F-22s when we are fighting enemies with no air forces yet the ability of the Army to forward deploy relies on an aircraft placed into production in 1955! No wonder it can’t lift more than 18 tons! Reminds one of the old story of how the Imperial gauge was derived and the width of the old Roman road network …
I Really. Really, hate to say this.
To keep companies from screwing us over. We need to do this all in-house.
Everything, from design to production. Because even when the design is good, we get screwed on low quality parts, craftsmanship, and PRICE.
Who gets screwed In the end? All of us, tax payers. Civilians. Military end users. All of us.
Cash flow can be delt with by hireing civilan, privet sector, and yes even federal workers to work in Government Facilities and Factories.
This will create Jobs for the growing american population of trainned college grads who are looking for work. This way Tax money will find it’s way back into our pockets not the bank accounts of profit hungry companies.
We wouldn’t have to worry about paying over 200$ for a toilet seat . Or low quality parts.
Privet Sector companies will still exist and probably be contracted solely for design and supervissiory roles. Not Production.
This is a good thing for them also because they will save money no longer having to support their production facilties or meet production quotas.
HOOOFRIGGIN RAHH!
I hear America to become less Communist, contacted out some of it’s mines to the chinese.
There was some kind of moment to prevent the government from generating it’s own money independantly. Well that was obviously not the action we should have taken. Money generated should go into the Tax pool’s and civilian / federal workers pockets. You hear what I’m sayin? =)
T.L.Steele We need more people like you. You see things clearly. We also need people to help the bright ones coherently organize their thoughts . Rally the reasonable, free thinking realists, along with the angry taxpayers . Finally, to inform the people of moderate intelligence so that they have an idea of what they are talking about. Making them able to focus their Intelligence into something usable.
As for the people who hate america by having nothing but bad things to say about it. They’ve picked up the habbit of wanting to see broken things fixed, and voice this desire. Unfortunetly.
They dont know how to fix things themselves, or voice their desire for change when and where it matters . Because only by really being active and taking actions can one bring change.
No one can fix something by standing next to their car. Pointing it’s flat tire, and repeating fix it fix it.
Ok guys, now which war are we preparing to fight here, sometime long in the future? It surely must be, “way out there”, because not that much of what I’ve just read reflects even the most recent ~history~, of what has killed the majority of our troops.
Are we really going to be ~forever~ stuck in the killing cycle of “Let’s find a way to pound our way in there, and figure out the rest of the plan after”? IEO we already KNOW how to do that! In two different languages! What we’ve got now, for that mistaken mission, works just fine per the SOP, thenksguysmuchly!
Can we imagine that the rest of the planet might have been and still is watching, and also reading the plans we make for our future, and perhaps thinking; “Well Ya know, if they’re going to keep building the same fortresses for the same mission, and then sending in those nice cans for our ping-practice, then maybe all we ever really need do is to stay out of the “front yard”, invite them into the “hood”, and then pick them off at our leisure…for the next, five, ten, fifteen…(?) years.”
[Will we need to have that translated from Korean, next?]
It’s a lesson we’ve succeeded in teaching everybody but ourselves, and from what I’ve read here, too many are still too willing to contain the discussion to the “safe & sexy” paradigm of brute-force tank battle hardware.
Why not? Sure, that’s a lot less problematic than trying to figure out fast, maneuverable vehicle designs useful for survival of inner-city ambushes, or how about even a troop carrier that could simply shrug off a direct hit from an RPG?
What, not “sexy” enough? Harder than designing a new tank that’s no more likely to be taken out than the superior one we already have? Well, to that I can only say, the men using the equipment are the ones with the “hard” jobs gents. Adn the way we deploy them, what we’ve given them to sue, makes that one very, very hard job.
Let the “big iron” engineers try calculating their slope angles and weight ratios with rounds panging off the roof and a car blowing up in the next lane! Maybe they’d find a new direction in life…
Let’s get some real here people, and at least (for once) begin to plan for the type of war we’ve been teaching everybody else to use on us, ~first~…
Has anyone ever thought to change the TACTICS? If vehicles and armor are being taken out by IED’s and VBIED’s, maby it’s time to look into a new aproach. More dismounts off of roads, LPOP’s, air assets etc.. If the issue is moveing fast, how about putting more money into light Infantry. Lighter and better body armor. Ever dismount in full battle in 120 heat? What about better anti tank for the light Infantry? The people incharge of accepting new equiptment need to realize what they are giving the soldiers. Make them cary a full battelload in IBA. Everytime I read about the “new” Army projects I see pic’s of people in BDU’s with no IBA, no helmet, and certenly not combat loaded. What happened to “train as you fight”. Last thing we need is another gadget to be accountable for, and a few hundred extra pounds. Think light, think lethal, think mobile.
the defense should give insight on the new weapon systems. so then what they researced can be applied to the old vehicals.
Kurt Plummer for President!?
Hey the M16 A2 is the best assault rifle in the world! it might not be as accurate as the British SA80 A2 but it is certainly more powerfull which to me is more important, also the M16 has the RAS which allows added parts to be put onto the rifle like laser sights, grenade launchers and a handle the weapon is also used also the main weapon of choice for special forces around the world including the British SAS.
” to intimidate them into ‘respecting him’.”
Yeah, Kurt you are FOS on this one. Must be a REMF. No NCO worth a crap can lead by intimidation for long, not in the cav, or in the infantry. And after having been in Mosul, the damn strykers are the best thing we’ve gotten other than personal gear. Beats the hell out of a humvee with kevlar and plate all over it.
Tanks don’t kill guerillas? Bull. Tell that to the ones we blew out of a bunker house in Anbar. This isnt Rome, nor is it Vietnam you moron. And there is stil no better way to dig out an enemy than dismounts backed by their own armor. Provenin Fallujah, and every day in Iraq now. But we still need a damn phone on them so infantry outside can direct the fire (rear is too hot due to exhaust gasses fromthe M1, and half the radios dont talek to the others). Another good thing we got was our own dragonflies to do our own observation. Pays to have the realtime eyes overhead that your company commander can direct and see.
Your idiotic remark about 3rd world infanttry being tougher? You are way off the mark: yeah, tough, tough enough to die in very large numbers, run away screaming from engagements if they werent amped up or doped out beforehand, then cry like a baby when we bring em in for interrogation, before ratting all their buddies out. Yeah, some of them are tough but on the most part they are bullies that fall apart when confronted with regular US infantry instead of local civilians.
What we need is better intel coming faster to the tactical level, better IED detection and supression systems. Jammers be good if they didnt also jam friendly comms.
We also need a-munchers like you to shut up and stop aiding the enemy with insults to the fighting troopers like “a federal dole for the 10 percent of our population who have no other immediate skillset or instinctive interests” (more college education in the enlisted population that in the US population, per capita – so stop with that line of crap). And if you can’t help, at least get out of the way of those doing the fighting.
The rest of your arugment stacks up similar to that particular cow patty you flung that I referenced at the top of my post. You’re bias is typical of the bloviating whiners who are going to cost us our asses. You’re just as bad as the people dicking around with FCS, and damn near as ignorant. What needs to happen is Congress stop feedin pork and give trigger pullers what we need: armor, speed, weapons that work, and quicker+better intel. We’ll take care of the rest as long as the ROE dont hamstring us, and the press (and people like you) don’t sell us out.
Tojour Pret
I couldn’t agree more with dragoon2e. Better intel is definitely what the troops nedd and luckily thats one of the central pillars of fcs. On top of that all the lethality systems are firing and have proven sturdy. The prototype chasis has passed all its test including those on the new band track and hybrid electric engine thats fuel consumption by a 3rd. The program is not as bad off as the article above would have you believe. The decision to drop the C-130 requirement was not dropping a central idea from the program but simply getting rid of a secondary requirement that would have put troops at risk. The strykers are great no doubt but these FCS vehicles are going to replace the paladin, abrams, bradley , and hercules in a third of the army and to call a 19 ton vehicle an MBT is ludicrous. The program is progressing as planned and now that the dumb C-130 requirement dropped soldiers will be provided with the tools that dragoon2e talks about. Hat off to you for your service to this nation dragoon2e
The FCS as orginally conceived, was for a Pre-9/11 Army that would mostly train with few, if any, deployments into combat. The War in Iraq shows us that modern war requires “going back to the future”.
To slug it out with insurgents in cities we need heavy, gas guzzling, block-smashing tanks that kill things the old fashioned way. Speed, sensors, better intel can only get you so far. There is no substitute in site for a pissed off 70-ton tank with
a 120mm gun and attitude.
Ghost 22, That honestly reinstills a lot of faith.
And I can’t claim to know things for myself. I’m just a Cadet Sgt. in JROTC. I’ve studied a lot about the Military, and want to join. But that’s about it.
I just get a little spooked when all that gets through to me in the Military circles are that the Army’s going downhill.
But it IS good to have some of those worries and misinformation defrayed. Thank you.
Right guys the main source for future succes in global opperations and wars are Aircraft Carriers, the next likely war would involve Russia, China and possibley Iran. What we have to understand now is this is a very serious threat to the USA,Great Britain and their allies and there is a slight possibility of this happening.
the u.s. military needs better leadership civilian as well as military. getting back to brass tacks would be stepping in the right direction. soldiers die in combat and equipment is lost, they’re both deemed disposable to reach the desired or acceptable end to any conflict(situation)they’re applied to.i.e.tools of war…the side willing to make the greatest sacrafises will always win. leadership is the greatest asset free society’s have but this has been lost more and more to political correctness and more popular catch phrases all geared towards keeping everyones emotional state as pleasant as possible no matter the practical cost.in the interest of time and space here are some key words that can take us closer to understang -education ,pilgrims,christian,servants or slaves,master,hope, inner peace or apathy,selfless or selfish, humanism,where are we as a people a nation.the military serv.s need firm direction and guidance from the healthiest society a people can provide. it depends on you more ways than you could ever depend on it.how are we living as indivduals that make us a stronger people and from where do we take our direction.toys don’t make the boys,tools dont make the job,who we are “is” what we do, by the choices we make.the bible says god sets kingdoms up and cast them down,one might also take from that by his standards we are judged or balanced as a nation. specifically any cost reductins not inline with reagans ideas on the military and budgets are pobably crap he gave this nation its only incontestable military while we where at peace before that we always had to race to catch up to the game after we where attacked or threatened .money is always an issue but people complain now about thier pocket books because they cant own enough what would they have and for how long if you cant defend what is yours as individuals or nations.the answer to that is all around you .any time light highly mobile units are used or deployed for extended periods in multi mission roles or not specfic to their training you will count the heaviest cost in cassualties bet on it.police actions should be left to police its degrading to and abusive to your own intent to tie soldiers hands and watch them die not what they sighn up for .we sighn up to be servants to our countrymen,to experiance reality and defend whats right trusting in our country (people,fellow americans)to use us wisely being servants however dont expect to here this from a serving soldgier not one i would claim if policing and nation building and such is what americans need and want lets do the job right but america should surley be thankful aand supportive because most of you would far rather be blowing stuff up ,spitting lead and dishing out nice fat dose of wrath and judgment sorry and thankyou
Re: this part, by James:
“….an issue with a 450 billion project to replace a 3rd of the army while retaining our “legacy” forces as the principle element of firepower.
“…why construct an Army within the Army. Should not the FCS vehicles be integrated into the existing formations. That way they can compliment and augment the heavy units.”
————————————————-
Hmm; reminiscent of the Panzers & Panthers that were supplied only to Hitlers SS Troops. (Note, 0% political infererence, 100% technical & organizational history….)
That sounds like it was born of the same thinking at the time, by the Germans, that better more technical weapon systems must require a higher grade of troops to most effectivley employ such complex and costly resources.
IMHO we already employ the much more preferable perspective that it’s neither necessary, preferable nor entirely possible to keep trying to escalate the training & calibre of people to keep up with escalating complexity of systems. We’re simply not gooing to be able to maintain an all volunteer force when the day (inevitably) comes that we find we have to begin recruiting college graduates to fill enlisted positions.
I think it’s just right and proper to tell the contractors that “everyman” is still and will always be the word-of-the-day when developing crew requirements for new tanks, artillery & other battlefield vehicles. It might still be a specialty, but it must be acheivable by the recruiting and training programs already in use.
The Germans suffered because of their choice in the matter, suffered from putting their “best, brightest and most worthy” into the most deadly situations and so losing them rather quickly once any real quality resistance was met, and suffered from severe “downtime” losses due to the mechanical complexity of their best tanks.
Meanwhile, the Americans and Russians had much smaller, faster & less complex tanks that they could manufacture by the dozens-per-day in multiple locations and train just about anybody they could grab to use them.
The simpl(er) designs made manufacturing go so fast that at one point the Russian city of Stalingrad was being defended each afternoon by tanks that had come off assembly lines the same morning, with crews being trained “on the way”, straight into battle. (A pretty short trip by then…)
It’s already been well proven then, that the best strategy is to make the equipment match the mission and the men, not the other way around.
Re, by Bill:”…the next likely war would involve Russia, China and possibley Iran….”
Rather than Bills “trifecta” here’s my bet on what will constitute our next full-on “war”, rather than another voluntary liberation:
China’s real objective in using such a high percentage of their ever-growing national “spend” to jump-start a military upgrade across the board by going on an international arms shoopping spree, could be to one day be able to simply go and ~take~ Taiwan, quick & dirty, and then sit there and dare the U.S. to do anything about it, as our treaty with Taiwan promises we would.
Complicating this, and (I believe) to specific purpose, is that fact that the Chinese have been by far the biggest purchaser of U.S. Treasury Bonds for the last five years or so. Not to be forgotten that the sellintg of more & more bonds is what has been financing the fights in Afghanistan and both Gulf wars, and will be financing the new costs for rebuilding from the hurricanes.
Would that seem to put us into a really difficult position, should we one day find the Chinese Army parked on Taiwan? Yeah, I could see how that might complicate things.
The problem, for us, is what the rest of the world would think should it become obvious that we did not indeed intend to do anything, about it. Would very many global leaders fail to think that they’ve just witnessed an historic transfer of power, “at the top”?
That’s one outcome, and the other is a heck of a lot uglier: Because we’re (still) the “good guys”, we see no other choice so we go and keep our “promise”, and all hell breaks loose, not only militarily but economically as well. But, the ~good~ part would be, that we sure as heck would once and for all get to find out if current theories about armored warfare were correct! ;]
Re; from T.L. Steele: “…as a Marine NCO I can honestly say I was privileged to serve with some of the finest men I have ever known. These men were Marine officers and with few exceptions were more concerned with the well being of their troops than their own safety.”…
Yeah for sure; not to ever have anyone in the whole military and indutrial system forget G. Patton’s wise advice on “purpose”; “…make the ~other~ poor dumb SOB die for ~his~ country!”
“Marine Corps this Marine Corps that. Bla… Bla..
Bla…” It seem there is too much animosity between the USMC and US Army. Well let me put it this way the USMC is great and I have alot of respect for you guys but… you guys patrol cities
we invade countries.
What about the Stryker? Isn’t it the field now? Doesn’t it only wiegh 19 tons (IE we can move it with the c130)? Everyone I know that has been to the field with the stryker loved it, and while it will not replace tanks. In many cases it is far easier to move around and work with than a Bradley, plus it is a one chassie system where mortor, 121mm (Like the Abrams), medical, troup trasport, etc etc is all on the same plaform making matanance and operations easier to plan and manage.
Or are we talking about something else that I am missing?
Does anyone know how many aircraft carriers the US Navy has?
I think one important aspect to all of this is that we agreed to size down or military until it becomes a hollow force. This started during the Kennedy administration and is supposedly in its final stages. You can read it for yourself. The Arms control and diarmament act. Go to a legal library on a college campus it is called Public Law 87-297. It established a committee of individuals who have oversight authority of all our forces. It actually says under-sea forces, ground forces, air forces and those that may operate in orbit. They are to also have control of how we deploy troops, how we equip them, R&D spending, etc. This was over 40 years ago. Look it up, please..
dear
i am cameroonian am 18 years old i dont no how to do to join army in usa .
please i dont get a way to rich in usa
dear, sister’s ,brother’s or any personne that it’s want to help me please
this’s my p.o.box 331 limbe
office and communication house
Join the cameroonian army its easier pal
just spend 1% of ur budget in right direction,,,whole world will love u ppl rather than to fight
Pls sir am a cameroonian age 19 year old and i want to join u.s army i want u to help me for i love army and i will save us army well 4 more infos am waiting to get from u a fourable answer
Thanks for understanding
It’s time we take stand.Todays America will nead all of our help and support.We do not nead to complain about a problem we can all help solve.My country is no joking matter.Everyone with doubt know. We will be victorious with all of our fights today and tomorrow.
hello.
Finding a way to join usarmy outside US but bein difficult.can you please lead me throgh by e-mail@ babajide78@yahoo.com or by mobile phone 234-8060406830.
Hope to hearing from you soon
Thank you.
Jide
Just another example of congressmen dumping money into the military industrial complex to benefit the rich oligarchy, while we the people and soldiers lose.
well, thats one reason the Roman Empire fell because they let the Military rot away and mostly with forigners in the Legions. History repeating itself and now with the new army uniforms which makes it easy for an untrained peasent to spot and shoot a soldier easily and category 4 recruits, might as well just have the boyscouts run the show.
What strikes me most about FCS vehicles is the lack of creativity in their design, and the inability to integrate into the design features that would enhance commander’s ability to enhance application of basic tactical principles.
what we need to do is start with and new armour to use on vehicles. then to start with a common base for tankes and truck so that there are interchangeable so if one breakdowns or if there is an update to armour you just swich the passenger and storge sections. so theres two part the engine and the passenger compartment, which helps save money with common part.
Maybe instead of designing whole new vehicles a low power point defense laser system could be mounted on existing vehicles and used to detonate RPGs before they hit. It could be made out of currently existing technology, certainly for less than those 450 billion. The complex part would be developing an automatic fire system that could react on time but i’m pretty sure with those kinds of funds it could be done.
The way I look at it, we are trying to solve a policy problem with a technological solution.
We want faster global deployment with less casaulties.
So the obvious solution is to rely on our strategic arsenal and punish the aggressors. When a conventional response is needed, hire some cheap local thugs/criminals and mercenaries and get it done on the cheap. Plus, these guys are totally disposable…..no need for “informational dominance”.
I will guarantee you it will be cheaper than $45B.
A military force should be used as a purveyor of death and destruction, no more, no less.
it sounds like we need my commander n chief-REAGEN.THE M-109 IS OLD AND OUT DATED.we need the CRUSADER.
We have a fast rapid response military force…it’s called the Marine Corps. Idk why the army is even trying to move into the Corps area of expertise. The Army’s job is to be the big slow lumbering force of “heavy infantry” and heavy armor units that go in and hold territory and launch large scale military actions against enemies. The Army is NOT our/should not be our quick response force. Forcing them into that role just creates a large, bloated, and redundant force. If we are to go through and make the Army a primarily light infantry force rather than a heavy mechanized force then we either need to fold them into the Marines or vice versa; it just becomes redundant and expensive to operate two services that will have basically the same mission plan If you want a rapid response force look no further than the Marine Expeditionary Force(s) that are deployed around the world. They are already lighter, & faster. Basically to sum it all up: Marines=Light Rapid Response force that can react quickly to hot spots around the world, but they can’t hold ground for indefinate periods of time…that’s where the Army comes in the big heavy force that moves in after the Marines have secured a foothold for the big hitters to move in and finish up. Marine=Light Army=Heavy why change a winning formula?
im sick of this army crap, ive never herd a soilder shut up with this “marines arent that good”. NO there better then army its all about speed and intensity which the army doesnt have, but dont get me wrong my dad was army special forces, he was a ranger and a real killer in paintball, but a marine fresh from basic put my dad to shame. basicly i dont hear marines talk crap cus they are marines, army talks crap cus they can never be marines, most amry soilders are rejected marines anyhow its not the other way around
Email me, i love to argue if you disagree
Justin Milam, either your daddy wasn’t Army SF or your just a fool. Army SF would pummel the living s#@% out of a marine any day. A marine fresh out of boot has limited experience in anything. Bootcamp is NOT combat training. In bootcamp you learn some fighting, and some shooting. But as an Army SF soldier you are an EXPERT in hand to hand combat, in weapons, and about 20 other items. So shut your mouth you ignorant fools. You are all around 15 years old and play too many video game SHUT YOUR MOUTHS!
first i dont hate on the army for god sake, the in there for the same reason as anyone in any branch second my father was a army sf iv seen him beet the living crap out of many before him and i see a lot of wisdom in him and third you are right about boot camp in marines its just basic skills not trying to stuff as much in themm and send them off to war, its said the only thing equall to a marine is an army ranger none are better then eachother but a regular army soilder fresh from basic and a marine fresh from basic easy pickn for that marine. so you can whine about it are you can suck it up (like a marine) and Acknowledge those marines and what they joined the marines for( if you think the army is so tough then why does the army have to compare there special forces to a normal marine{not that theres anything normal about them}that does not sound to tough)
I MUSS ZIB
I MUSS ZIB