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Marines Quiet About Brutal New Weapon

by dupont on November 14, 2005

War is hell. But its worse when the Marines bring out their new urban combat weapon, the SMAW-NE. Which may be why theyre not talking about it, much.
This is a version of the standard USMC Shoulder Mounted Assault Weapon but with a new warhead. Described as NE — “Novel Explosive”- it is a thermobaric mixture which ignites the air, producing a shockwave of unparalleled destructive power, especially against buildings.
smaw-ne sequence.JPGA post-action report from Iraq describes the effect of the new weapon: “One unit disintegrated a large one-storey masonry type building with one round from 100 meters. They were extremely impressed.” Elsewhere it is described by one Marine as “an awesome piece of ordnance.“
It proved highly effective in the battle for Fallujah. This from the Marine Corps Gazette, July edition: “SMAW gunners became expert at determining which wall to shoot to cause the roof to collapse and crush the insurgents fortified inside interior rooms.“
The NE round is supposed to be capable of going through a brick wall, but in practice gunners had to fire through a window or make a hole with an anti-tank rocket. Again, from the Marine Corps Gazette:

“Due to the lack of penetrating power of the NE round, we found that our assaultmen had to first fire a dual-purpose rocket in order to create a hole in the wall or building. This blast was immediately followed by an NE round that would incinerate the target or literally level the structure.”

The rational for this approach was straightforward:

“Marines could employ blast weapons prior to entering houses that had become pillboxes, not homes. The economic cost of house replacement is not comparable to American lives…all battalions adopted blast techniques appropriate to entering a bunker, assuming you did not know if the bunker was manned.”

The manufacturers, Talley, make bold use of its track record, with a brochure headlined Thermobaric Urban Destruction.“
The SMAW-NE has only been procured by the USMC, though there are reports that some were ‘borrowed’ by other units. However, there are also proposals on the table that thousands of obsolete M-72 LAWs could be retrofitted with thermobaric warheads, making then into effective urban combat tools.
But in an era of precision bombs, where collateral damage is expected to be kept to a minimum, such massively brutal weapons have become highly controversial. These days, every civilian casualty means a few more hearts and minds are lost. Thermobaric weapons almost invariable lead to civilian deaths. The Soviet Union was heavily criticized for using thermobaric weapons in Afghanistan because they were held to constitute “disproportionate force,” and similar criticisms were made when thermobarics were used in the Chechen conflict. According to Human Rights Watch, thermobaric weapons “kill and injure in a particularly brutal manner over a wide area. In urban settings it is very difficult to limit the effect of this weapon to combatants, and the nature of FAE explosions makes it virtually impossible for civilians to take shelter from their destructive effect.“
So its understandable that the Marines have made so little noise about the use of the SMAW-NE in Fallujah. But keeping quiet about controversial weapons is a lousy strategy, no matter how effective those arms are. In the short term, it may save some bad press. In the long term, its a recipe for a scandal. Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide “we do/do not to use X”. Otherwise when the media find do find out as they always do — not only do you get a level of hysteria but there is also the charge of covering up.
I’m undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up. Otherwise you get claims of chemical weapons and violating the Geneva Protocol. Which doesn’t really help anyone. The warfighter is left in doubt, and it hands propaganda to the bad guys. Just look at what happened it last weeks screaming over white phosphorous rounds.
David Hambling
THERE’S MORE: Americans arent the only ones with these weapons. The Chinese, the Russians — even guerilla groups — now have thermobarics’ shockingly destructive power in their grasps.

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{ 336 comments… read them below or add one }

W. Zimmerman November 14, 2005 at 11:34 am

“Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide “we do/do not to use X”.
Good grief.

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R November 14, 2005 at 12:16 pm

Those "hearts and minds" are anti-American, so who cares. No big loss. I'd rather see anti-American civilians die than American troops.
Also, if the price for a country to enter into war with America is higher because we have more "massively brutal weapons", then all the better. The more they have to think twice (or thrice) before getting into conflicts, the better.
But to say that using these weapons is wrong, because they MIGHT cause civilian casualties? Please. We're using them against people who obviously don't value our civilians, indeed on September 11th they saw our civilians as TARGETS. So I don't hold any sympathy there.
Force is the authority from which all other authority is derived. To intentionally water down our force authority because the huggy-feelies of the world don't like the APPLICATION of that authority is wrong, and in the long run will only hurt our ability to assert our authority without being required to resort to force.

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Mike July 12, 2010 at 5:41 pm

Indeed. Yep, “no big loss”. Ever think if the tables were turned and you had your mother, wife, son, blown up due to enemy weapons and they chalked it up to “no big loss” because you’re “Anti-(insert whatever here)?” Obviously you feel comfortable with ***erting your “force” (read: tiny ****) into whatever situation you feel requires your shrimp **** authority to be rammed down someone else throat. You make it sound like the USA has just been sitting here on it’s ***, minding it’s own business, and then voila! 9/11 from those mean “A-rabs”. Never mind we’ve had a foreign policy for decades that has ****** over 1/2 this planet for the almighty dollar. You don’t have whack-o terrorist killing innocent people by running jet liners into them because they “feel like it”. So yeah, even though it was a terrible tradegy, and plenty of innocent people lost their lives on Sep 11, to consistently adopt the military ***** attitude of “Let’s keep shoving a bigger gun up their *** until none of them are left” isn’t war…it’s called geneocide.

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777 February 6, 2013 at 12:00 pm

Don't you think whole world may soon just get rid of you for the first stanza, crazy bloodsucking bittch?

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Alex November 14, 2005 at 12:37 pm

There’s a thermobaric warhead (either Russian or Bulgarian) for the RPG7 that is apparently equivalent to a 122mm artillery round.

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Mycroft November 14, 2005 at 1:11 pm

I would think, that an explosive aimed from line-of-sight, that is man portable, would be far less likely to cause massive damage than, say, an artillery barrage, or an airstrike. Nothing controversial about the other two, so there shouldn’t be anything controversial about this.

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Byron Skinner November 14, 2005 at 1:50 pm

Good Morning David,
Are your refering to the “new’ M-72A7′s that were recently put on order with an Arizona companyfor the Marines?
If the pictures shown are in fact the M-72A7 it looks like a winner.
As for Civilian casualities in a war zone there are no none combants as we saw from Jordan yesterday.
When war starts human rights negotiations have failed and U.S. soldiers and Marines have the same rights to stay alive as “civilians” do.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
“Stewart’s Platoon”

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Jocelyne Rains November 14, 2005 at 3:59 pm

I don’t have much to say. Only that this new weapon that should not be taken lightly.

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The Cenobyte November 14, 2005 at 4:11 pm

Personally I think this weapon looks like a winner to me. Like any other weapon there are placing it works well and places it would be a just aweful.
In the case of Fallujah everyone I know that went said they never once saw a noncombatant in the city. So while leaving a house is not good, its better than sending in Marines to fight it out. On the other hand, if you just use it wherever you feel like it you are going to cause all kind of problems. But these ‘jarheads’ are smart kids and I think for the most part they know when and what to use. Lets give them the tools, and let the officers figure out when they should use them.

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TheMasterTimekeeper November 14, 2005 at 5:15 pm

I’m with C-Low and Skinner here. It is bad business to rule ANYTHING out (yes- that includes all the horrors of the Thirty Years War) in a fight, as demonstrated by the increasing contempt terrorists are showing for U.S.-run “detention facilities”.
The alternative may be to end up a virtuous loser. We must ask ourselves, would we rather be standing tall at the end of the fight, or remembered as honorable, but soft-headed, has-beens? I for one would rather see my nation vilified, but nonetheless sovereign, than suffer defeat because we have lost our ruthlessness.

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TheMasterTimekeeper November 14, 2005 at 5:17 pm

As an addendum to the above, I might remind everyone that chemical weapons were not used during the Second World War due to the fact that both sides reatained them and were willing to use them in retaliation in kind. We would do well to remember this lesson; Al Quaida has shown little interest in playing by any rules at all.

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Andrew Krause November 14, 2005 at 8:11 pm

A buddy of mine with IInd Mar Div out of Camp Lejeune returned from Iraq, and he ‘acquired’ one of these weapons from another platoon before going into Fallujah. He swears by these them. The buildings there are akin to bunkers, and nothing short of a ma deuce will do anything other than chip away at the walls. Terrorists know they can take over a house and fire on Marine’s in unprotected positions with little fear of return fire. Even pinpoint 203 rounds and standard anti-armor rounds did little more than ring the ears of hardenned fighters hopped up on narcotics like hash, opium, or khat. Lob one of these “smawnees” into a window, and you save time, bullets, and Marines. The insurgents adapted, and you’re seeing fewer houses getting taken over by them. So you’ll see fewer smawnees getting popped through front doors. In short, this is a non issue already. Incidentally, pre-smawnee the answer was to call in a tank to level the building. A tank round stands a good chance of going through a few houses. The smawnee takes out the house it’s in. Far better choice IMHO.

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John Blake November 14, 2005 at 8:42 pm

In extremis, the ancient “means vs. ends” dilemma boils down to, “When survival is at stake, anything goes.” If Islamic terrorists wore uniforms, respected non-combatants, subscribed in any way to the so-called “laws of war” (rather than, say, beheading trios of elementary schoolgirls to discourage educating females), then –possibly– more self-restraint in weaponry might prove justified. But powerful armament is inherently deadly and (yes) ghastly in operation: Think Hamburg’s victims of Allied white-phosphorus bombings in 1945, faced with drowning or burning alive. If war cannot be prevented, then prosecute it relentlessly, avoiding non-combatant casualties to the extent possible, but never at the expense of your own fighters’ lives. Anyone reading of super-heated firestorms boiling down the elevator shafts of our Trade Towers will understand that America’s enemies care nothing for our scruples… and to the extent we pull our punches, we prolong the conflict, inflicting worse “collateral damage” on more people. Tell it to the Marines, whose lives are at stake and –treasonous jerks like Durbin and Kerry aside– in their own interest make every effort to win battles without mindlessly flattening everything in sight. By all means, use whatever ordnance is most effective. If Al Qaeda objects on humanitarian grounds, issue ‘em clown costumes before we all die laughing.

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Stephen Fisher November 18, 2009 at 5:37 pm

Very eloquently put, John. I agree entirely!

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NamMan February 19, 2010 at 12:19 pm

Well said THERE ARE NO NON COMBATENTS in these war zones and they use their own people as shields and do nothing but scream foul play, they are cowards, being a Vietnam Veteran 70/71 RAE Australian Army, i really feel for the soldiers there its pretty hard to disguise yourself as sand or a rock, so take them out by whatever means available, and yes to the clown suits they are murderers and mindless sub humans one and all.

NamMan

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Noah Shachtman November 14, 2005 at 8:47 pm

Y’know, for a while, I’ve been worried about the quality of debate here in the comments. Too many wave-the-flag (or burn-the-flag) diabtribes. Too many all caps screamers.
But these smart, brutally honest observations are a real pleasure to read. Nice one, everyone.
nms

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Big D November 14, 2005 at 9:00 pm

Look, how many times do people have to say this?
American thermobaric weapons are NOT FAEs. The Russians called FAEs thermobarics as a marketing trick, but ours are very different. We should have called them enhanced blast or something to differentiate them.
They’re basically high explosives with some of the explosives replaced with other bits (I heard aluminum nitrate–hobby rocket fuel–once, but I haven’t researched it much).
One big difference between the two is that our thermobarics aren’t all that effective out in the open, where FAEs are. However, a FAE is hard to get inside a building, whereas our thermobarics, since they stay solid until they go boom, are easy to get where you want them.

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Nicholas Weaver November 14, 2005 at 9:12 pm

I think its because it really IS sensible:
The alternative has been artilery and air strikes, which are far WORSE. I’d worry about large hyperbaric weapons, but something designed to blow up a whole house FROM the inside seems far more proportionate than the alternatives.
Personally, I think the whole war is immoral, and founded on a series of lies. But for those Marines stuck in the sand, and following legitimate orders, something like this seems a godsend: a weapon they can actually use effectively (without having to wait for fire support), and actually seems far more proportionate than the alternative.

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Rand Simberg November 15, 2005 at 12:17 am

My question is, how do we keep the enemy from getting their hands on them?

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staydown November 18, 2009 at 4:20 am

easy my man, just eliminate the enemy quickly! all of them, remove their seed from the Earth.

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Stehpinkeln November 15, 2005 at 12:29 am

CW, thanks for the laugh. Do you really think any weapon will scare a suicide bomber? If it kills them, good, if it kills them fast, great, if it kills them in bunches, even better, but you can cross intimidating them off your to-do list. It ain’t gonna happen.
No way to prove it , but I suspect the only thing a man sitting on 600 pounds of high explosives with a deadman switch fears it not getting to his target.

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playertwo November 15, 2005 at 3:33 am

do you know how demoralizing ineffective bunker weapons are? talk about a let down..
any infantryman that knows is sh*t would tell that this is a miracle weapon. It denies the coward enemy his rathole instantly.
hooah ya bastids and we got more where that came from!!!
ethics..human rights..you go hump your lunch around in 110 heat and then talk to me about picky choosy crap.
it’s only an issue because it works for Americans.
so much for the corps crying about getting second rate stuff. shows theyre still in the game bigtime.

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Desideratum November 15, 2005 at 7:47 am

The significant military advantage will always cause controversy in a propaganda driven media circus. Human rights are far too vocal and seem to have far too much influence on whatever is going on. Let us not forget this is a war not a sport with judges. Yes Human rights should be upheld but the soldiers are human beings and in Fallujah’s case have to face a deadly enemy both military and civilian. If I didn’t know who the hell I was fighting civvfy or otherwise then I would be grateful to have a weapon that allows me to take out all possible danger. The use of this weapon should be decided by the officers – that is their job and if the human rights people want to do it put them on the front line. I’d like to see how they treat the human race after a smiling boy of 10 walks up to them and then delivers to 200lb blast destroying their friends.

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David Hambling November 15, 2005 at 9:45 am

There have been some interesting comments, but nobody picked up on my main point – that the development and use of SMAW-NE and similar devices is being done on the quiet and that public discussion has been avoided.
Whenever the legal/ethical status of a given weapon system might be questioned, surely some public debate is needed. Anything that could undermine support at home, or alienate third parties, is dangerous. Some may feel that it doesn’t make any difference, but I have to disagree: propaganda is what drives recruitment for the anti-US cause.
There are a huge number of new technologies now being developed under classified programs, and no such discussion takes place. This is something which is described in more detail in my book, Weapons Grade, which lifts the lid on a few such items.
Thermobaric weapons will be used by insurgents and terrorists, and I hope to expand on this threat in a future posting.
The approach of “taking the gloves off” is a slippering slope. For example: insurgents from a certain town in Iraq carry out an attack. Devastating reprisals are carried out, on the basis that any inhabitants who are not terrorists are supporters of terrorists who did nothing to stop them, and the ferocity of the response will make anyone else think twice before supporting the insurgency.
Some people might support this type of action; but this is exactly what Sassam Hussein is being tried for.
(And yes, I know the Brits did it first in Mesopotamia, and with chemical weapons. Doesn’t make it a good idea).

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TrustButVerify November 15, 2005 at 10:23 am

I’d like to address the reports of “thermobaric” RPG-7 rounds equivalent to 122mm worth of artillery.
Are they kidding? It sounds like a teensy little overgeneralization. As we’ve read above, FAEs and the like are extremely useful against soft targets and enclosed areas.
Armored vehicles and structures, which react just as poorly to direct arty hits as anything else, can generally ignore the effects of FAE/thermobaric attacks, especially when “buttoned up”. Thus I hardly think it honest to say these weapons give the average RPG power equivalent to tube artillery.

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JSAllison November 15, 2005 at 12:05 pm

So let’s really think perpendicularly here. Military issue small arms ammo is a lead core fully covered by copper or some other substance. No soft point or hollow point. This is in accord with the ‘no dumdum’ policy. However, it often happens that a person shot with a fully jacketed bullet has to be hit more than once to put them out of action as this bullet design minimizes internal damage and frequently results in the person bleeding bleeding to death slowly from multiple impacts. It’s possible that a hollowpoint/softpoint bullet design might actually be the more humane alternative as it is more likely to stop the target with fewer shots. To my mind, if it’s okay for law enforcement use, it ought to be okay for military use.

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R. Miller November 16, 2009 at 8:23 pm

the problem with your logic is that it makes sense. therefore it has no place in military policy. also, fmj rounds are more accurate at greater distances. never know when you have to make a "hail mary" shot.

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jeremy n July 13, 2010 at 12:47 am

I believe that fmj is the correct bullet of choice for military, because when combantants are hit it makes there followers help them in turn. It was always explained to me that it caused a drop in morale if you had to help your buddie. Though it might not work with these people.

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David Hambling November 15, 2005 at 12:17 pm

“I’d like to address the reports of “thermobaric” RPG-7 rounds equivalent to 122mm worth of artillery. Are they kidding? ”
It’s actually less impressive than it sounds – if you look at the payload of the (thin walled) thermobaric round and compare it to the (thick walled) HE road, the values are not that different anyway. What you don’t get is the shrapnel, which is what does the antipersonnel damage.
You cannot directly compare the explosive effects of condensed vs thermobaric explosives, because it’s a matter of high overpressure/short duration vs low overpressure/long duration. But generally speaking against structures, thermobarics are highly destructive – unless they’re tailored not to be.

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Christopher Karel November 15, 2005 at 12:22 pm

David, I think you’ve got a point about discussing weapon morality *before* deployment, not after their discovery. It makes sense from both a pragmatic standpoint (avoiding cover-up charges and public outcry) as well as a moral one. (‘kill first, ask questions later’ is a poor national policy)
But that being said, the US armed forces develops a boatload of new weaponry on a consistent basis. Exposing each and every one of them to a public debate would be silly, time consuming, and wasteful. The military doesn’t need a consensus every time it redesigns a sidearm or modifies a projectile casing. So that means that there’s a vague line somewhere demarcating what does and does not need to be discussed. I think small scale thermobarics are close enough to that line to be understandably passed over.
I assume that the marines ‘keeping quiet’ isn’t a policy decision, but simply another cutting edge military technology that isn’t discussed a greatdeal in the public. You make a very good point in the broad sense, in that there are things things we should be discussing, but aren’t. (ie, RNEP)
To toss my two cents into the thermobaric debate ensuing: This specifically doesn’t look to be too much of a problem. The shoulder fired aspect of this weapon simultaneously limits its destructive strength, as well as guarantees accuracy towards a carefully chosen target. It unquestionably beats out artillery/guided bombs, and is probably better or equivilant to simply ridling a structure with bullets. The mechanisms of a thermobaric explosion look to have limited effectiveness outside of confined spaces — one can’t say the same about more conventional fragment-based explosions.
–Christopher Karel

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Jober November 15, 2005 at 1:51 pm

“Whenever the legal/ethical status of a given weapon system might be questioned, surely some public debate is needed.”
Not necessarily, I think. Often new technology comes hand-in-hand with new tactics in an effort to give US troops the element of surprise, which consistently leads to safer, more effective operations (for our guys, that is.) Should the US have publically discussed the capabilities, use and tactics of the F-117A Nighthawk or the B-2 Spirit before sending them into Baghdad? Should the NRO start having “how much is too much?” discussions about the resolution of their orbiting cameras? When it comes to making war on those who would stand against the US, every advantage we can give our fighting men and women can be translated into lives saved on the ground; that means some soldiers get to come home to their families that might otherwise have not.
I agree that this is an issue worthy of public discussion, but if you accept that sometimes open combat is inevitable, laying all of our cards out on the table before the bullets even begin flying isn’t necessarily the best strategy.

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Robert T November 15, 2005 at 2:25 pm

I am for any thing that in the long run will save the lives of U.S Troops. I also think that anyone who is against the use of the SMAW-NE or any other military hardware because they think it is too brutal and that it might hurt civilians even though they can save American lives arent Americans their terrorist and should be kicked out of this country I love so much.

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Allan Benamer November 15, 2005 at 2:26 pm

For the record, I’m also against the war. I marched against it twice here in New York. While there are clear red state vs blue state issues involved in the war, many of the reasons I disliked the war was that I foresaw it as being unwinnable because the Powell Doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine) was not being followed. As many of the posters in this thread have commented, overwhelming force does intimidate future opponents.
However, this weapon only antagonizes them because American troops are unable to take advantage of the newly “pacified” area. How overwhelming is it when insurgents KNOW that the Americans, having leveled a few houses in the neighborhood with their fancy new weapon, are going to leave shortly?
Chew on this a bit — we could have won this war in Iraq but Bush and his buddies decided we could go in with a 166 civilian to 1 soldier ratio instead of the 40 to 1 ratio we had in Bosnia.
Weapons like this are pretty fancy — even I’m intrigued by their usage but no matter how many robots, fancy nonlethal devices and weapons like this you throw into the fray our country cannot withstand a prolonged occupation that was poorly prepared for.

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John K. Bednar November 15, 2005 at 2:38 pm

I agree with the "Good Grief" comment. Debate the enemy on whether we use a weapon or not? I suppose the Marine Corps rifle squad will now consist of 14 men, one of them a lawyer.

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PizzaHog November 15, 2005 at 2:43 pm

Interesting site – thanks, Rand, for the link!
1. SMAW-NE doesn’t seem “brutal” or “barbaric.” Dead by extreme SMAW-NE over-pressure is the same as dead by artillery barrage, is the same as dead by cruise missile, is the same as…etc. SMAW is more target-specific than other options which minimizes collateral damage/casualties.
2. Public debate is a good thing, but like all good things it can be taken to an extreme that is damaging, especially if the debate is un-/ill-informed. Debate over being in Iraq is good. Debate over how we are engaging the Iraqi citizens vs. the insurgents is good. But debating particulars – bringing down buildings by using SMAW-NE vs. HE rounds – is engaging in intellectual wheel-spinning, especially if one isn’t conversant with the modern battlefield, it’s pressures and requirements. If the weapon and it’s use don’t violate The Rules, where is the debate?
3. Public debate. Another example of non-debate: there has been little *public* debate on the US military’s decision to stick with the .223 full-jacket round used by the M-16 and *most* US long military arms, when there are very valid reasons to adopt the 7.62mm full-jacket round. The reason: the US public hopes (and prays) that the “experts” in this matter make the right decision. Also, there is almost *always* debate within the military systems, Congressional sub-committees and the procurement processes.
4. Saddam is being tried for massive crimes against humanity – the use of gas and other agents to kill large numbers of people. To equate his actions with our military’s – in Iraq or Afghanistan – is intellectually and morally bankrupt. The number of Americans that have died in these countries is large – the number that died so that we can minimize civilian casualties is significant. It would have saved a lot of American lives if we used FAEs on Falluja or Obeidi – and we would have been wrong if we had done so.
5. Any weapon can and will be used by terrorists, unless there is some reason that *they* recognize as legit that prohibits it. A desire to aquire weapons is very different than the ability to make them – like weapons-quality nukes and NBC weapons. If they could make ‘em, they would have used ‘em by now.
6. The possibility of terrorists aquiring a few SMAW-NEs isn’t strategically important, if taken in the context that they have virtually unlimited access to equally powerful conventional weapons that can achieve similar results.

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James S Watson November 15, 2005 at 2:47 pm

The USA should develop more effective nuclear weapons. At a bare minimum, both Bagdhad and Fallujah should have been destroyed at the outset of the war. This would have demonstrated to Al Qa-Ida that their efforts were futile and would have simultaneously saved literally THOUSANDS of American lives.
Our ongoing failure to effectively utilize our excellent nuclear capability is what has cost us dearly in Iraq, and if it is not fixed, it will cost us many more American lives as we take the war on terror to new countries.

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Bill Daniel November 15, 2005 at 3:10 pm

Who said war is civilized? If I were a non-combatant, I sure as hell would take my prayer rug and boogie down the road. BUT, the best way to win a war is to not let it happen. Make the world KNOW that the US IS the best, and that when the Marines, Navy, Air Force and Army show up; any enemies’ ‘cojones’ shrivel to mustard seed size.
Oh yeah….we can be hurt but we can make them hurt worse. Yes, we need to fight ‘limited’ wars, not all-out destruction or de-population of a city. If we have the technology that will lessen the risks of US casualties, so much the better.
But the US NEEDS to make war so horrific for the other side, that the next time someone wants to play with the “bigs”, they’ll think REAL long and hard about it.
The last fight I got into was in high school with some idiot that just wanted to pick a fight. I didn’t feel obligated to tell him I had a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do. He brought a bunch of his friends to see me get my butt kicked. He wound up with a broken nose and fractured forearm. No one ever picked a fight with me again. The ‘fight’ lasted about 45 seconds and he never touched me.
Any policy that says we need to lay all our cards out on the table is treasonous, at best. We NEED to maintain a strong military prescence, now and forever. I was told as a kid,”don’t start any fights, but make sure you finish them.” Sounds reasonable to me. I won’t go into Vietnam anymore,by choice. THAT one’s over.
Bill Daniel
“The Lieutenant”

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Richard Smith November 15, 2005 at 3:25 pm

Uhh… Just a clarification to a few of the posters? Just because Bush kept saying 911-Saddam-Iraq-911-Iraq-911-Iraq, doesn’t mean that Iraq had anything to do with it. In fact admitted itel confirms they did not and abandoning the mission in Afganistan let the real villans of 911 escape.
So please, let’s try to keep the facts as facts, ok?

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anti November 15, 2005 at 3:39 pm

again the americans shock me

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Charlie November 15, 2005 at 3:51 pm

Gee, an enhanced fuel-air explosive – the enhancement basically being that the packaging and distribution are well optimized (i.e. small round, large explosive spread).
Yawn.

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Eric McWilliams November 15, 2005 at 3:53 pm

is there a such thing as a non-brutal “weapon”. I mean come on we don’t fight wars with pillows people.

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Gerard November 15, 2005 at 3:54 pm

Obviously we need to send in the human shields again. Just because it would make shooting this thing more fun.

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bud November 15, 2005 at 4:16 pm

“I’m undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up.”
My son just got back from Iraq, and his comment was that “If we lose, I’m blaming the JAG.” The troops over there have to be conversant with an ROE of 6 pages, single spaced. An IED goes off,
and 60 yards away, a single guy pops up and starts running off. Nope, can’t shoot him, he may just be running off to the bathroom.
He did say that he liked working with the Iraqi troops though, since their ROE seemed to be “Shoot anybody you feel like.”
email is human readable – aloud.

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khy November 15, 2005 at 4:27 pm

as awful as war is, i would still like to see a video of this weapon in action.

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Cowicide November 15, 2005 at 4:55 pm

Dear America,
What we need to do is mod this weapon so it will liquify the Iraqi civilians and convert them directly into oil that we can capture somehow into oil drums. This would be great for your Hummers and their voracious appetite for foreign energy sources.
We should take all money away from alternative, renewable and domestic fuel research and funnel it into this human oil conversion idea.
We Care,
The Military Industrial Complex
P.S. Remember, those who aren’t fighting in Iraq and are fervently supporting and working on alternative energy in the United States are COWARDS. The real HEROS are those who are out there on the front lines controlling the Middle East oil for us with rocket fire.

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Christopher Karel November 15, 2005 at 5:17 pm

Mr. Skinner,
You bring forth a valid point regarding open discussion. I would personally agree that debte by *knowledgeable* people can benefit both the military and the public. But I don’t think that the military has any moral or pragmatic obligation to encourage such debate in most matters. Other times, when pushing the bounderies of an acceptable level of force or means to an end, the military should (in a moral and non-legal sense) get the information out to encourage debate *before* they’re actually used in the field. And while your example of the C-17′s is a solid example that the public can provide decent oversight, it’s really not the best cure. If pentagon officials aren’t procuring the best equipment for our troops due to contractor profit concerns, the answer shouldn’t lie with more public debate, but with better officials. Points 2 & 3 by PizzaHog are along the lines of my thinking.
Bud,
I find your (son’s) comment regarding the Iraqi military to be especially disconcerting given the just announced issue of Iraqi jailors torturing and starving prisoners. It is entirely possible (Probable?) that the US rules of engagement are too strict. But it’s far preferrable to unnecessarily killing innocent civilians. And the rules were likely designed to err ‘on the safe side’, rather than having to deal with the moral and strategic setbacks of an abundance of noncombatant casualties. We had plent of that in Vietnam, and it didn’t seem to bring us any closer to victory. A “Shoot anything you feel like” RoE is ridiculous. We’re better than that. It may be easier to memorize, but that doesn’t make it right.
–Christopher Karel

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Andrew November 15, 2005 at 5:19 pm

Folks, there is a reason why we elect public officials. It is because we entrust with them the responsibility to look after our best interests.
Encouraging public debate about weapons on the drawing board is a poor idea because it 1) gives away the element of surprise (you’ve all heard of the internet by now, right?) and 2) is based on the public’s “feelings,” a haphazard science, when it should really be about scientific fact and battlfield effectiveness.
Come on people, let’s give our guys the tools to get this job done so they can come home.

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Howard Sux November 15, 2005 at 5:26 pm

Almost 3 years after the USA invaded Iraq, deposed the government, installed your own administrators and began destroying infrastructure – you’re still there, destroying infrastructure with weapons like this new thermobaric one.
Your own actions generate your opposition. Go home and let Iraq heal.

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cssamo November 15, 2005 at 5:35 pm

I see the blame America first crowd is still around. Instead of posting here they should be checking out the history books but that wouldn’t matter as it seems they would rather the US suffer an attack before we take care of business rather than taking it to the enemy on their soil. No doubt that group would be the first to whine about not being properly defended.
Debating a weapon before its use??? I can just see it now, Truman calling up the press corps and saying we have this new weapon that could end WWII but we’re not sure if we want to use it or see hundreds of thousands more military die in the Pacific. We have become too soft.

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Cowicide November 15, 2005 at 5:43 pm

> Encouraging public debate … is a poor idea because [it] is
> based on the public’s “feelings,” a haphazard science
Yeah, don’t you hate it when public “feelings” get in the way? Like how they spurred the civl rights movement? The American revolution, etc.?
Yah… the will of the public should just be ignored or better yet, the government and industrial military complex should just manufacture consent and so we can all agree on everything… without those pesky, human “feelings” getting in the way.
Hitler would be proud.

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Paul November 15, 2005 at 5:45 pm

“Marines could employ blast weapons prior to entering houses that had become pillboxes, not homes. The economic cost of house replacement is not comparable to American lives…all battalions adopted blast techniques appropriate to entering a bunker, assuming you did not know if the bunker was manned.”
Have you seen the pictures? How they are going to enter a house such as the one illustrated on the pictures LOL. Something does not seem right based on what the weapon can do and the argument.

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Michael Leap November 15, 2005 at 6:08 pm

I’d like to be able to forward selected issues to colleagues w/o going through the save to doc process. Thank you.

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John H November 15, 2005 at 6:09 pm

War is simple… the sooner you kill all of the bad guys, the sooner everyone else stops dying.
Weapons that help the end to come sooner, are fine with me.
Semper Fi!

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Joe Earl November 15, 2005 at 6:14 pm

Sounds like a great weapon that every GI should use several times a day with moslem terrorists. Your use of the word “brutal” in the article makes me feel that you are sympathetic with the enemies of the US Govt. and are perhaps a democrat or a wuss.
You should review the footage of various hostages having their heads hacked off with a knife. That is “brutal” and a fundamental element of Islam.

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gordon November 15, 2005 at 6:18 pm

Better to blow up the bad guys and save our troops. Build them, use them, God Bless our troops!

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Allan Benamer November 15, 2005 at 6:20 pm

David Hambling,
Am I not correct in that weapons procurements ARE made transparent to the public via the budget process? Was this weapon part of the military budget somewhere?

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david depman November 15, 2005 at 6:21 pm

“The USA should develop more effective nuclear weapons.”
Well, thats a pretty silly idea. The whole reason we stopped developing ‘more effective nuclear weapons’ is because it just encouraged everybody else to do the same. It might have been convienent in your eyes to just ‘nuke’ Baghdad, but if you make enough other people nervous about getting nuked, your simply up the chances of getting nuked first yourself.
Oh, yeah, and it would have been a terrible, terrible, idea. It wouldn’t have ended the war, it would have simply guarenteed a civil war by effectively destroying the only possible center of government.

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Gene Miller November 15, 2005 at 6:21 pm

We have all seen far too many of our military personnel killed or injured because they had to go into buildings and dig these little Islamic Jihadists pig butts out of their little rat holes. As the father of two U.S. Marines, I believe we should do everything possible to protect our military personnel, and I dont think we need to be checking with the media before we do so. Tell GS to bill me for two of them..

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jeremy nerstad November 15, 2005 at 6:24 pm

I don’t care one bit about public debate. War is fought by the Military. If this weapon saves lives of our troops now, then use it now. Let the bleeding hearts debate it later. It is not contriversial or inhumane or anything new. It goes BOOM and kills the enemy. End of debate. Use it and God Bless the Marines, its about time they get the equipment they deserve to get the job done. How many Marines should we let die while soccer moms and anti-war protestors rangle over wether we should use a weapon that works when they would swoon at our failures. I don’t get this at all.

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david depman November 15, 2005 at 6:25 pm

“You liberal assholes should all denounce American citizenship”
Why? Because you are a crackhead?
“I understand you crackheads have freedom because of people like me”
Sorry, our freedom doesn’t depend on homeless dick sucking crackhead male prostitues like you.

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Bob Bruno November 15, 2005 at 6:30 pm

O.K. people. Lets look at this thing in all reality. We’ve lost 2000 G.I.’s over in the big sand pit. Looks like terrorism is here to stay. Put it in proper perspective. People die, military and civilian. We are over there to give them a hint terrorism will not be tolerated. People here at home die from smoking or lung cancer to the tune of about 400,000 each year.Put a dead 30 year old next to military vet of the same age, but military action, tell me the difference. It causes pain for both family’s and extended familys. Wives, girlfriends loved ones and for what? 5 minutes worth of taste? How does one go about tasting smoke? In 58 years I have yet been unable to figure that one out. We lose 50,000 people a year to auto accidents. For what cause? All are preventable deaths, but in their own personal world they choose to kill themselves slowly. And one day it is over. A cancer patient is gone. So, in perspective don’t shove your anti war sign in my face while smoking a cigarette. Cause you’ll bite the big one. Some of those people are a bunch of pogues. Boy I feel better.

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Jim Foster November 15, 2005 at 6:31 pm

Seems to me if it helps me and my squad come home UNperforated, and doesn’t have the effect of 16in 2ton shells of a battleship, the more the merrier.
In a MOUT situation, merde ocurs spontaniously! IT’S WAR. It ain’t nice, clean, nor neat. If we get the bad guys in bags, or behind barbed wire, then it’s over.
This SMAW-NE round has a very limited application. What’s the difference between it and chucking a satchel charge in? How about the “wonderful” flamethrower? Which would you prefer as an “innocent bystander”? How about the one tasked to use it. This is far less damaging than a flame thrower, (esp to the one using it), and the satchel charge.
Seems to me lots of folks would like to see me or mine come home to Moma in a bag.
If not for us, “they” would be coming for you sometime in the not to distant future.
Smell what you’re selling. It smacks of surrender to those who would like to see you dead or living as a new convert to Islam.
Appeasement doesn’t work, ask the Chezch’s, Poland, France, etc.
Don’t worry. There’s enough here in the USofA to finish this. If we don’t, we’ll be fighting in downtown, USA. I wonder what the peacenik’s will say then?
Later…

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Christopher Karel November 15, 2005 at 6:32 pm

Well, Noah, so much for the smart, brutally honest commentary. It was good while it lasted.
Oh, and I’d be remiss in the shoddy comments arena if I didn’t nitpick the fact that you misspelled “Diatribes”. =)
–Christopher Karel

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Robert T. Medley November 15, 2005 at 6:32 pm

Recall that President Johnson bent to the outcry about using tear gas to clear caves in Viet Nam.Resulting in more US and enemy casualties.Public discussion about the Marines innovative use of this explosive is about as irresposible as anything I have heard so far this week.

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Robert T. Medley November 15, 2005 at 6:33 pm

Recall that President Johnson bent to the outcry about using tear gas to clear caves in Viet Nam.Resulting in more US and enemy casualties.Public discussion about the Marines innovative use of this explosive is about as irresposible as anything I have heard so far this week.

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TSG November 15, 2005 at 6:34 pm

Happy Birthday Marines, Semper Fi and Thank You.

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Gunner November 15, 2005 at 6:49 pm

As much as I like to see this weapon, and think that public debate is not needed on this, I have one thing to say counter to a supporter here. Actually two things. They concern the atomic blasts that leveled two cities in advanced. People focus on that way too much, and fail to consider the fact that we actually boiled a river. We firebombed tokyo so much that it was no longer a worthwile target. Doesn’t anyone ever wonder why the capitol was not bombed instead? Secondly, they had offered surrender on pretty much the same terms as we eventually accepted them after the bombs. A very convincing argument might be made that the bombs were more for the benifit of stalin and the soviets than actually winning the war. Just a thought.

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Rob Doyle November 15, 2005 at 6:53 pm

This looks to me like an effective piece of ordinance, and an impressive one too. Of course we should use it. As for colateral damage, well, this is war. And in war, colateral damage is, or should be, expected. As far as the “Human Rights” groups are concerned, why the HELL aren’t they complaining and marching and nagging at the governments of Syria and Iran, that allow terrorists, with NO REGARD for human life, let alone Human Rights, to operate from within their borders? Stop trying to kill our servicemen and women by tying their hands. The day I give a damn about what these elitist fools think, is the day I see them take this fight to the true defilers of Human Rights.

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Mike C November 15, 2005 at 6:58 pm

I’d like to find an enemy we’ve fought that cared about human rights.

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Rob G. November 15, 2005 at 7:04 pm

“‘You liberal assholes should all denounce American citizenship’
Why? Because you are a crackhead?
‘I understand you crackheads have freedom because of people like me’
Sorry, our freedom doesn’t depend on homeless dick sucking crackhead male prostitues like you.”
Shut up. High school graduation is all you need to worry about for now, so don’t stress yourself out too much by arguing with other peoples’ opinions over a weapon that will do nothing but help our troops in Iraq. You’ve got a lot of growing up to do.

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Sid Gylnn November 15, 2005 at 7:33 pm

Great new weapon.
I am all for it. Lets all go terrorist hunting with that.
Keep up the progress, get it to the field FAST.

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Brett I. November 15, 2005 at 7:42 pm

OORAH!

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John Shannon November 15, 2005 at 7:50 pm

“There is no moral justification for taking the lives of non-combatants” I believe thats what you said Mike. Tell that to the vicitims of 9-11, the Cole,London,Jordan. If the defense of this country were left up to you Mike, everyones ass would be pointing west five times a day.

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Scratchy November 15, 2005 at 8:05 pm

I understand what lots of you are saying, but the fact remains that world over, a lot more people cheer when Americans die *now* than they did five years ago. That’s Bush’s ultimate legacy.
Rant about power and control all you want, but that’s the real direction America is headed in thanks to Bush and his regime – a country of people despised by humanity.

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Rob Doyle November 15, 2005 at 8:29 pm

As an American citizen, I frankly could care less what the rest of the world thinks of us. We have NEVER been appreciated by the rest of the world. Except, of course, when we are killing the enemies their highly enlightened societies have allowed to flourish within them. In regards to more people cheering now than 5 years ago when Americans die, I would have to say that is unfortunate. But again, I don’t care. Nor should you. The impact of their hatred towards us is really negligible. And finally, as far as not being able to win a war against enemies using Guerilla tactics in a foreign and hostile environment, wrong again. We DID defeat hostile Guerilla fighters in the South Pacific during WWII. The FACT isn’t that we CAN’T defeat them. The FACT is that, unfortunately, those that DO NOT go to war no longer have the backbone to see a war through to the end. Mike, no soldier, Marine, Seaman, Airman, or Coast Guardsman that goes to war WANTS to kill non-combatants. Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists the word over DO want to kill non-combatants. Realize the enemy for what they are. Do not Denigrate our troops while romanticizing the goals of a group of homicidal sociopaths.
T

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Rob Doyle November 15, 2005 at 8:51 pm

DevilDawg, Semper Fi Brother! Job well done!

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Junked November 15, 2005 at 9:16 pm

You can clearly tell that the above few comments are clearly from those who are die hard war supporters. The cost of war far exceeds the totality of the conflict, regardless of what is at stake – everyone loses in a war. The very idea of going in to a country, mucking about with their economy, military and just about everything else and then saying “let them defend themselves” now that we have completely f*cked everything up is just stupid.
The american government (not it’s people), have been sticking their fingers any pie they can get, the more foreign the “pie” or nation, the more support for the cause they can arouse. The ultimate goal of the American gov’t is to rule supremely. This weapon can be equated as a very mild form of a nuclear bomb, it starts off as something small and tactile but later grows to something horrendous and utterly disgusting.
If America was at war with a European country, say England, I wonder if these xenphobic commentors would continue to make their remarks.

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Reality November 15, 2005 at 10:18 pm

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
By Steven E. Jones
Department of Physics and Astronomy
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84604
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

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Dave November 15, 2005 at 10:24 pm

How many of these puppies would I need to order to take down a building the size of the white house?

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L BROUSSARD SR. November 15, 2005 at 10:28 pm

IT’S ALL ACADEMIC, ALL OF IT.!!! ANY U.S. SOLDIER, SAILOR, AIRMEN OR ESPECIALLY MARINES WILL DO AS ORDERED OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES. YOU SPEND YOUR TIME AND OBEY ORDERS, IF YOU LIKE IT YOU STAY IN AND IF YOU DON’T YOU GET OUT WHEN IT’S TIME, HOPEFULLY ALIVE AND WELL. IT’S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO TRY AND SANITIZE WAR. WAR MEANS DEATH, AND DESTRUCTION. YOU HAVE TO LEAVE YOUR MORALS AND CIVILIAN IDEAS AT THE MAIN GATE UPON ENTERING AND PICK THEM UP ALONG WITH YOUR DISCHARGE PAPERS UPON LEAVING.

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Jack November 15, 2005 at 10:28 pm

First, when will the pacifists ever learn sometimes war unfortunately is sometimes a neccesary evil and yes it is evil. I am very sorry noncombatants are dying but that is a price that has to be paid for peace in the long run.
Secondly as “Chesty” would say “can you kill people with it and save Marine lives at the same time then use it” (after a demonstration of the M60)

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Dave November 15, 2005 at 10:31 pm

Quote: “First, when will the pacifists ever learn sometimes war unfortunately is sometimes a neccesary evil and yes it is evil.”
I agree. So how many of these puppies do I need to remove the psychopathic parasites from the white house? Hypothetically speaking.
911 was in inside job.

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Jim Wagner November 15, 2005 at 10:36 pm

This guy – John Blake at November 14, 2005 08:42 PM Got it right! Just like Gen. Sherman got it right when he was asked about his burning of the south. If war is too clean and only the soldiers die, the nations will never tire of it. And do not read into this that civillians should be targeted – no, all means should be taken to protect life – WHEN POSSIBLE. In most ground wars, the civilians are the first to leave – if allowed to do so, unlike Stalingrad of WWII. But if it comes to war, all means must be taken to win that war, anything less is a recipe for defeat.

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JAMES MEADOWS November 15, 2005 at 10:46 pm

WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS HERE? LET’S FILE THIS ARTICLE UNDER CLASSIFIED SO NO BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS OR DEMOCRATS CAN TRY TO STOP THIS ROUNDS USE. LET THE TROOPS USE THEM AND GET THIS OVER SOON SO NO MORE MARINES WILL LOSE THEIR LIVES.

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Matt Garrett November 15, 2005 at 10:53 pm

The object of warfare is to kill people and break things. This weapon does both at the same time. And rather effectively.
And if it’s brutal, then perhaps insurgents will think twice before hooking up that Suicide Belt or IED – which kills far more innocents than a delibrately aimed thermobaric weapon.
Anything to bring victory and end this conflict.
I say kudos to the USMC.

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Richard Hardin November 15, 2005 at 10:56 pm

This comes from a Marine who has been in a confect(Vet Nam) and if we ever learn that news is never nice to us then to heck with them!!!! Marines do as told and are dam good at what they are trained to do and that is to protect Americans right to do as they want so GET-R-DONE Marines do what works and to hell with the bleading hearts sitting on there asses doing nothing.

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Al November 15, 2005 at 11:12 pm

This comment specifically addresses the “little fanfare” the Marine Corps has made concerning this weapon. Please show me a weapon or weapons system which the Marine Corps has shouted from the rooftops about. The only thing we (yes I am one of them) constantly praise and talk about is the individual Marine. The information you have been able to obtain is freely available to the public – the magazine “The Marine Corps Gazette” from which you quote extensively can be found at your better newstands. This was not the first article to appear about this weapon. Nor was procurement money obtained through anything but a very public manner. Your attempt to equate it with chemical weapons is misguided. Its use is not banned by any convention to which we are a party (nor for that matter is white phosphorous – a projectile type which is used much more frequently for its screening capabilities than for its lethality). Finally, as has already been explained, this weapon presents a much more accurate means to take down a house/bunker (although this does not always happen – dependent upon the construction of the target) than what would have usually been used – an artillery barrage, or an airstrike.
Semper Fi

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jeremiah bihary November 15, 2005 at 11:15 pm

just nuke there asses and bring our troops to the next battlefield

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danbo November 15, 2005 at 11:16 pm

cold steel draws warm blood!!

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jordo! November 15, 2005 at 11:18 pm

All I gotta say is, where can I get one of these?! This is bad ass.

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Sgt. Hebert November 15, 2005 at 11:18 pm

I saw this round in action it was the best thing we had in mout it beat the hell out of going into a building that regular 5.56 didnt penetrate and finding that everyone was still alive in there shooting us to pieces. But then they took them from us claiming it was to inhuman so we went back to the old fashion way of heavy casualties and room by room intense white knuckle fighting. Thanks for Nothing to anyone who is trying to get rid of this round i hope its worth your fellow military members lives.

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Steve Pile November 15, 2005 at 11:22 pm

Meh. U.S. Forces don’t have the stuff to carry out protracted wars against hard targets anymore.
And Iraq wouldn’t have been considered a hard target twenty five years ago!
Even during WW2 it required overwhelming numbers (usually 20-to-1) and the help of other nations, and that was just to murder German civilians. The U.S. is lucky the Germans surrendered (which turned out to be a big mistake), and that they had traitors in their high ranks, otherwise the Allies would likely have been forced into a ceasefire.
If Germany had taken the ruthless approach of the Allies, and had used their tons of stockpiled VX gas, they would have wiped out the entire Allied infantry in Europe. Eventually the Germans would have mastered intercontinental rocket systems, and I’m sure the Americans would complain about how unfair it would all be.
Will the U.S. win based on its ruthless thuggish behavior? No. For the simple reason that it IS a paper tiger, filled to the brim with fools, flatterers, and mental and emotional cripples who still value their lives more than their delusions. And that is the description of its imperial warhawks, supposedly the people who will stomp on humanity’s throat. Forget about trying to be world’s beat cop; we can’t even keep our economy on an even keel.

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Keith November 15, 2005 at 11:49 pm

One for each squad!
Then use them on certain college campuses

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Alan Cekorich November 15, 2005 at 11:50 pm

” just nuke there asses and bring our troops to the next battlefield
Posted by: jeremiah bihary at November 15, 2005 11:15 PM”
————————————-
Any of you geniuses wonder what the hell we are doing in Fallujah in the first place?!!? Why are you so high on killing in a war based on lies? Al Qaeda is a farce, those guys were funded by our CIA. Iraqis had nothing to do with 911. Nothing. The marines are there to steal, ahem, “secure”, the oil for Israel.
Why do you consider these civilians legit targets? If someone forced your health and education system down to poverty levels, then came in force to your town, tortured your population, maimed and/or killed your women, children with indiscriminate bombing….then would you not defend yourself? Of course, that’s allowed, right?
Having weapons like these is probably great to boost your impotent, empty lives. Have you ever wondered why we have to kill these civilians while we have no way of saving our own people in New Orleans?
We are wrong to be there. We are wrong to use these weapons on civilians. We are bullies. I hate to see how we have to answer to God for our crimes.

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Patrick Sullivan November 15, 2005 at 11:52 pm

Brilliant Savages we be.

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Dale E. Moore November 15, 2005 at 11:54 pm

Kill ‘em all. And the Democrats, too. Everybody but you and me… Well I do wonder about you sometimes.

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Dennis November 16, 2005 at 12:04 am

David Depman,
Did my kind words piss you off? ahhhhhhhhh little boy,let me wipe your tears with an aloe based kleenex so I dont mess up you soft facial skin hughug kisskiss, do you feel better now? How hard did you hit those keys to type in your message? I bet your little hands hurt from your built up anger, anyone else wanna baby this little bitch? LOL

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ConcernedCitizenOfTheWorld November 16, 2005 at 12:32 am

Should any of you choose to pause and reflect on why the rest of the world looks on in horror at the unilateral policies prosecuted by United States, and why the US is alienating would-be allies, I would suggest a read through the postings on this page should be sufficient.
Characterised by factual inaccuracy and an incapacity to hold that another’s viewpoint may be just as valid as your own, I truly despair for the future of the US and the rest of the world if this ‘discussion’ should prove to be an indication of the majority view of the US populace.

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Mike November 16, 2005 at 12:32 am

There is no “pleasant” or “humane” way to kill your enemy. The goal remains the same. And like every other war before, civilians that get caught up and mixed in with the enemy usually get killed. Thats why they say War is Hell.
In God we trust but thru superior firepower we can sleep well at night.
Now lets get on with it, get it over and done with, and get the forces home.

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W. J. Wright November 16, 2005 at 12:41 am

Being a former Marine, I will certainly reply that whatever I could get my hands on to seek out, close with and destroy the enemy always works for me. Audie Murphy wasn’t issued the .50 caliber he had to use in a tight but he was damn thankful that it became available I’m sure. Morality issues seldom came into play whether in a foxhole in Belleau Wood or going house to house in Hue City because a Marine’s job is to kill as many of those bastards in front of him as he can and the enemy can be damn thankful that there are any pamphlets delivered at all giving them ample warning that death, real pain and true suffering is most certainly coming his way. I also don’t think anybody who is using an IED with arty rounds is really too worried about “overkill” either. My only real complaint would be if this weapon were to somehow be convertible to utilize some kind of NBC capability because that’s a different Pandora’s box altogether. To all my Marine bro’s gettin’ it on—stay low and quick and come back home in one piece. Semper Fi,

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Wade MC November 16, 2005 at 12:45 am

Thank the U.S.A. and the USMC for speaking the facts. I am completely reassured by the intelligent comments blooming like WP of truth. A few small voices that may have to answer for thier selfish public comment can don the Emperor’s New Clothes of false liberal belief and grandstand with infantile perspective. It’s called sedition. I know and have known generations of USMC personnel. The outlook of Marines in WW2 was irrepressable. Let’s go ahead with the certainty that Marine confidence, morale & determination will create a world untenable for armed oppsition and others closer to home.
Wade MC

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Franko November 16, 2005 at 12:54 am

Lets just use the weapons we have to and bring our troops home safely and not in body bags.I am a viet vet and what do we have to show from that mess. A granite wall with names of many that died in vain….and now we are starting another list from a new conflict. If this is a war than fight it and be finished instead of having our troops die in vain

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Wadsworth November 16, 2005 at 1:05 am

you all are mad about the war in one way or another…right? you either are mad that it is going on or mad that people are mad that it is going on, grow some balls and realize that this is life. we had to fight to become America and we have to fight to stay America! I would rather go to someone elses house and F*ck sh!t up then have them over at my place doin the same. Im a Marine for life. OOOORRRRAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

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magic November 16, 2005 at 1:08 am

Again American facist demonstrate thier wilingness to use illegal weapons in an illegal war. The illegal invaders being killed by the ilegal insurgents, poetic justice!

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Conan the Younger November 16, 2005 at 1:08 am

As a former Marine officer many years ago, I was told/taught to use the right weapon in the right situation. I don’t call for a daisy cutter for a sniper shooting at my unit from a CAP village. But I would call in a daisy cutter on an active regimental base camp.
Public debate about weapons is done at the policy level, not the tactical level. The policy boys, usually civilians, tell us military types to use which weapons in which type of wars. The military types work out the protocols, ROE, for the weapons available in the theater of operations.
Since Bush has decided that we are in nation building mode instead of crush the enemy at all cost mode (remember the scene on the aircraft carrier where he said all major military operations are completed because we won the “destroy the enemy” phase of the Iraqi War), we can only use the weapons that don’t kill more of the civilians we are suppose to be protecting than the bad guys.
From the article, it sounds like the protocol for the use of this SMAW-NE weapon is as follows:
If you are taking fire from multiple weapons or crew served weapons from a building/bunker, use the SMAW-NE to remove threat.
If you are taking sniper fire from one or two weapons from a multi-story building and you watch a mama-san (sorry, wrong war) an Iraqi mother herding her children to safety in the same building, you don’t fire a SMAW-NE through the door behind her. You call up your own sniper team to take out the enemy snipers. If you are a savvy officer or staff NCO, you know you are suppose to use your best judgment where to draw the line between using each weapon at your disposal.
For you Attention Deficient Hyper-Active types, you don’t get to kill civilians just because you are too stupid to know which war you are fighting.
Even the civilian types get it wrong sometimes. For example, US civilians thought it a great idea to deploy the neutron bomb in Europe because it would destroy Soviet armored forces without destroying civilian infrastructure. The Europeans hated the idea because it reduced the horrors of nuclear warfare and made it more likely that nuclear weapons would be used in their own backyard. As it turned out, the Europeans read the Soviet psyche better than the US did.

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scott November 16, 2005 at 1:23 am

Also, if the price for a country to enter into war with America is higher because we have more “massively brutal weapons”, then all the better. The more they have to think twice (or thrice) before getting into conflicts, the better.
Uh, if I recall, the Iraqis where all just sitting at home having dinner when the US kicked in the door, killed a lot of soldiers (and civilians), deposed the government, annouced martial law, installed a puppet government. And then were shocked that people started riding around in pickup trucks shooting at them.
Yes, I’m sure the world would be a better place for a little more thinking.
The difference between a tool of liberation, and a tool of terror is the intent. And when the US are standing in a sovereign country they have invaded using those tools, it looks remarkably like a terror campaign to suppress a population.

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soldier November 16, 2005 at 1:30 am

war is hell

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stewball November 16, 2005 at 1:39 am

Kinda gives new meaning to the phrase , kill em all, let GOD sort em out.
Or, kill everyone, GOD will know his own.

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Jerome November 16, 2005 at 1:47 am

I don’t understand the fuss. Haven’t we used Thermobarics in Afghanistan? War has never been pretty or it’s weapons,but they are used to achieve the ultimate goal of victory. And if that means using these so called “BRUTAL” weapons to protect our soldiers,Then we have to be “BRUTAL”!

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Tpr. Bloodhound November 16, 2005 at 2:06 am

The Marines have something that puts them on an
even footing with Iraqi Ambush Insurgents, and that’s a bad thing!!??? JMJ!! who’s side are
these nitwits on. We should give them a leg up
cause Winning isn’t playing fair!!?? Screw the
Insurgents. If they take shots at US Troops or
they are ambushing Marines from somebody’s house,
Somebody better grow a brain and defend themselves from the Insurgents putting those same people at risk. The cerebral types have way
too much to say. The “Lawyers” should shoulder a
weapon, go on patrol,dig some metal out of their
butts and then, see if their opinions are the same. Otherwise take the advice of Cheech and Chong to Chris Schenkel, “Don’t say nothin!!”

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Todd November 16, 2005 at 2:18 am

Hmmm, a half second thermobaric death. Or being stitched head to toe by 7.62 and writhing in pain for the next four hours until finally retiring??? Fellas there is nothing good about any death whatsoever…Fact is until we get the Star trek phaser gun what death is best for both parties is the QUICKEST one. I do not worry much about the moment of death, it is the hours before it that worry me. I had also rather die a brutal instant death over a gutshot anyday. Besides it aint about how good you look as a corpse…A side note worth thinking about though: When the enemies of America has the opportunity to choose we did it is usually torture…Sad how good weapons can bring all this negative publicity when the truth is everyone seems to not see a problem with hurling infintismal lead missles by the hordes tearing ripping and utterly destroying wounding an maiming for life all in its path…BUT god forbid we vaporize those who would destroy us by any means at all possible?????

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Tink November 16, 2005 at 2:35 am

have we forgotten war is hell and people will suffer. It is not intended to be painlees or kind, that is why it should be avoided. But if it can’t there can be no second guessing or hesitation.

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robert berencreuz November 16, 2005 at 3:29 am

if you don’t think weapons are sold in an open market you’re wrong. this will find it’s way into the “enemys” hand.

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minky moo November 16, 2005 at 4:45 am

who proffits from all of this,and why arnt the shit stirring politicians out there fighting,Ill tell you why,because they are laughing all the way to the bank,while mugs like you and me provide them with cannon fodder in the form of ourselves and our offspring,as well as pay many taxes to fund new methods of destruction,In short,go kill yourselves ,while we sit off ,and you can pay us too,SUCKERs
when a human dies they litterally make a killing,and ordanance proffits soar,like class a drugs,they kill you ,and the price keeps going up,hey but arnt they illegal to keep the prices high,,

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jay vaughan November 16, 2005 at 4:54 am

“American Lives” are worth more than other lives?
Amazing. Simply Amazing. Has every single American overlooked the fascism in their country, or what ..

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zonabill November 16, 2005 at 5:22 am

I found Cowicides comments to be somewhat biased, after clicking on his profile I discovered just how bitter it is.
Personally, whether this war was justified or not(And I still believe it was/is) is immaterial at this point. What matters is that our Marines, soldiers, etc. are in harms way and if there is ANY weapon system available to give them an advantage it would be criminal not to deploy it.

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Night Eagle November 16, 2005 at 5:32 am

No question in my mind if the new thermoberic device should be used if it helps save just one American life. The big danger lies in keeping this device out of the hand of potentially hostile forces through illegal arms trade or enemy capture. Perhaps integrating the device with a digital arming code and basic failsafe devices deployed previously in similar unconventional devices may be in order. Thermoberic devices are under development and will not go away so protocal for their use must be established.

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RUBEN November 16, 2005 at 5:56 am

Don`t need and do not want anymore wars.But if we have anything that can be used by our kids to do thier job. I`m for it,100%.I remember when we went from C`s to Long Rats,we all thought that was the greatest thing.Humping the gun in a Force Recon team,meant I could carry more ammo.More bullets,lighter beans just wonederful. SF

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Michael November 16, 2005 at 6:06 am

I would far rather that American soldiers die during operations than Iraqi citizens. The soldiers signed up for this. If the cost of war is too high for the U.S. then it is quite simple. Don’t go to war. 11/9 (Notice the U.K. date) he was an invitation to come over and get involved in an unwinnable war.
The U.S. would have been far better to concentrate on intelligent responses to terrorism. The ‘Yee Haa’ response is unworthy of the people in New York, a lot of whom will probably be appalled at the descision to lie to the U.S. people in the case for going to war. When most of the world is against you when even after you have been attacked in a vicious way, your case is probably very poor.
I have no problem with wars being fought when the justification is there, I don’t mind weapons that kill effectively.
For those of you who would love to dismiss my comments on the ‘You don’t know what it was like’ basis. I live in London, and work about 1/2 mile from where a couple of the bombs went of on 7th July. I felt angry with the people who did it. I also felt angry with the U.K. and U.S. governments for their incompentence when dealing with terrorism.

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Dan Hughes November 16, 2005 at 6:15 am

I have a son and a nephew who are both Army Infantry. Hooah! If this weapon keeps them and their buddies alive while they dispatch Islamic Terrorists………….give it to them and let them use it. If the Marines or Army are coming to town to clear it of Jihaddies anyone in their right mind not involved (ie. civilians) will clear out. The rules of engagement are pretty simple. Don’t shoot at our troops and our troops won’t use the weapons given to them. In the mean time use what you have to get the job done and get home safe.

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Arrogant American November 16, 2005 at 6:17 am

If it kills more people and better, like all good Americans I’m all for it.
But nobody else is allowed to have them, that would be terrorism.

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the heretic November 16, 2005 at 6:26 am

We should anex all the countries that wish to become part of the United States and NUKE the rest of those muthaz. Might makes right baby! Then we can bring all the boys home and make them police to control the nation with an iron fist. If you don’t like it then you get kicked out into the toxic wastlands.
It all is to much for my brain. Forget thinking, I am going to church.
PRAISE THE LORD

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Joseph November 16, 2005 at 6:32 am

What happens when you put a powerful weapon in the hands of savages? Total destruction of everything in sight. It is good however that recruiting for the military services is down. People are finally getting smart.

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Arrogant American November 16, 2005 at 6:38 am

We have gotten rid of all those sissy Geneva Conventions and International Bans on Torture. There is no reason we shouldn’t just Nuke the Towel Heads. Nuke the whole lot of them.
Then we can sleep safer in our beds and not live in cowering terror all the time.
Besides they have our oil, and they were selling it for the wrong kind of money. They can sell the oil but they can only sell it for American Dollars of course. How the hell can we run the world if people start selling their oil for other currencies. That’s like, pretending that oil was theirs in the first place. It aint. That oil is American Oil, or it soon will be.

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Todd November 16, 2005 at 6:45 am

I believe that the more power you can prove you have, the less you’re enticed to use it. The only caveat is having a morally/ethically stable person in charge of when and how it’s used. I can trust the guys pulling the trigger to make the right decision, I’m just not so sure they’ll have the ability to exercise that decision.

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Arrogant American November 16, 2005 at 6:45 am

Heretic nobody wants to be a part of the USA, except Mexico, and they are moving in already. So we don’t have to bother with annexing anybody, we can just get on with using these Nukes we’ve had sitting around, going to waste all these years.
Anyaway, it the Armageddon, and we are supposed to do it. Thats what my uncle says. Uncle George that is.

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bones river rat November 16, 2005 at 6:50 am

I noticed that several entrants in this forum evidently are happy that so many americans are dieing because “They signed up for it” I can only wish that some day You might find yourself in MY crosshairs. All I can say is that any spinless COWARD can sit in an office 1/2 mile from a bomb blast and deride their government and rightfully so, Just keep in mind that your right to do that was paid for by the Blood of young armed forces troops (Both American as well as English) and as I mentioned before neither YOU nor anyone else on this planet has the right to say even one miserable utterance against them.
Why don’t you take a short jaunt down to your local Pub, find one of your local disabled veteran Royal Marines and tell him and his mates that you value a bunch of ragheads over people like him! Unless you feel THAT convinced that you are right and the rest of us are wrong, I would suggest that you consider taking up residence in Iraq, I’m sure the “Insurgents would welcome another sniveling COWARD into their midst!
As I mentioned earlier, It is my contension that whether we like it or not WE ARE AT WAR and WE OWE it to our troops to support them in any and every way possible to the compleation of their mission, otherwise WE are not worthy of their efforts!!
In closing, I would like to pose a question, How many of you contribute on a regular basis to the U.S.O.??? If you haven’t now is a good time,,think about it???

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realist November 16, 2005 at 6:52 am

Who Would Jesus Bomb?
Jesus, save yourself from the gory gloryseekers, who use your name in death.
Allah, the same goes for you.

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the heretic November 16, 2005 at 7:03 am

I got it. We can do away with these cool tech weapons and just give the marines nets. YEAH! We could capture those SAND NIGGAZ and then torture them to death. Maybe bring them back to America so every house hold has an Arab to torture and spit on. That will teach those women and children too blow up my twins. “Spit on the brown guy little Julie” “good girl”

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bones river rat November 16, 2005 at 7:12 am

For all those squawking about not being opposed to a war as long as it is justified,,,I would ask, How the hell does the aspect of justfication have anything to do with war???
War is the result of the failure of justification!

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Jack November 16, 2005 at 7:23 am

“Uncle George”… that’s cute. You really don’t have a clue, do you Arrogant?

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Rich November 16, 2005 at 7:24 am

Don’t see a problem here. Blind them , blast them, burn them – worked at Tarawa and it apparently still works today. Much more simple and efficient than a precision guided weapon (missile/bomb) – but wait – last time I checked, a direct fire weapon in the hands of US Marine is a precision weapon.

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J. Love (USMC ret.) November 16, 2005 at 7:31 am

War is voilent and destructive, but for those on the front line involved in carrying out the “dirty work”, it is imperative that he or she be given the “best” in order that they can survive and accomplish their assignment.
It is a kill or be killed situation, if it were otherwise, it would proablly be called “power puff football”.
Semper Fi!

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Wendy November 16, 2005 at 7:33 am

With the technology the United States has, there isn’t one reason why we should have lost one soldier and the sad part about it is that the war isn’t being fought to keep our freedom in the United States. This war has grown into nothing having to do with the U.S. and our freedom and our soldiers are getting killed. If the government were truly trying to get terrorists, it could have been done by special forces which just shows this war has some political agenda we don’t know about. It would be nice if our government supplied our soldiers with the weapons they need. I bet if they (government officials) were made to go over there and fight, they’d have the best, greatest and latest equipment which should be given to all of our soldiers. Our soldiers should have whatever technology they need to get the job done and protect them.

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ste fargher November 16, 2005 at 7:39 am

I want to see more weapons like this,more often,and I want one for the kids to play with,I dont want to have to say to my kids NO!,I want to give them the best,newer better weapons,more available to more of the free world,I want my kids taught how to destroy things properly,I think schools should start teaching them how to kill early,at the age of 13 they should all have m16s ,and if theyre good they should get a SMAW on their 18th,I was gonna say 16,but that would be irresponsible cos theyre too young,I didnt get my first minigun till I was 21 !! ,,these days theyre spoilt !!!

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bones river rat November 16, 2005 at 7:42 am

After reading cowicides entries I think it might do us all well to look at it again.
I think he is hitting alot closer to home than even he knows, In doing so he is treading close to some very dangerous waters. The war in the middle east is “justifiable”, But not for the reasons that the public has been told. To delve any deeper into that area would run the risk of coming up MIA one morning. Suffice to say that there are some very evil people in this world, Much more so than Hitler, Tojo, Saddam, Charley Manson,and all the rest could ever hope to be, No I’m not referring to our “elected politicians” Those clowns are just a bunch of puppets on a string.
There are a few still around who are aware of the true agenda behind all the mess. If the general populace knew what was really going on in their own back yard it would cause total chaos! (As there will be a loss of a few sheep to apease the wolves, best not alarm the entire heard from their slumber lest we lose many more to pandimonium)

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Echo4Sierra November 16, 2005 at 7:42 am

Mr. Depman,
I see no reason to “debate” these issues with liberals like you. First you have no idea of what is really happening in the field and therefore are just whining. I have read a lot of comments here that I agree with, some that I don’t and I have “TRIED” to discuss these issues with people like you. What I have found is that you and others like you are just ignorant of the real truth. Being ignorant isn’t a bad thing, I’m ignorant of certain things, I would not attempt to debate brain surgery with a brain surgeon because I’m ignorant of that issue. I am not stupid though, if I REALLY thought there was an issue to be debated I would study and learn, THEN discuss the issue. What makes you and others stupid is that you absolutely REFUSE to learn anything. You would rather wallow in your ignorance and write letters that only prove to others that you are. You are NOT intelligent, as you presume yourself to be. I will not discuss the issue of whether the SWAM-NE is good or bad, though I think it is great, what I will address is your extremely limited knowledge on the subject of war. I am just an average guy, work everyday at a job I like. I am a Vietnam Vet whose belief is that people like you cost thousands of American lives there and continue to try to kill Americans in Iraq. You celebrate everytime an American dies, throw a party when we lose yet another war. People like you have weakened America to the point that people like Bin Laden are no longer afraid to attack us. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we HAVE to win this war? I just don’t understand your philosophy, these people (terrorist)are not going to lay down their weapons if we lay down ours, they will only use that moment to attack us. I think it was Abraham Lincoln that said “It is better to remain silent and be considered a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”. You may be a “hero” in your circles Mr. Depman but to true Americans, those of us who have fought and lost friends, you are nothing but a traitor. Again Abraham Lincoln said during the Civil War (paraphrased) “Those who speak or act in a manner that hurts the morale of American troops should be hanged”. I fully agree with Mr. Lincoln.

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CodyK9 November 16, 2005 at 7:52 am

Looks like a Bazooka to me.
Been there. Done that.
(Beautiful French Indo-China Nov.’68 til Apr.’70)

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the heretic November 16, 2005 at 7:58 am

I enjoy starting and ending the day crushing people under rubble. Also, screw the trees too. Haven’t scientists figured out a way we can live with out the blasted things. If I have one more fit of hay fever I will burn the things down myself. They can all be NUKED with the women and children of the god hated, freedom hating 3rd world. I am white, christian, adult, male who comes from a wealthy back ground and I am just simply better than most of them. BURN EM’
Is there any way I can get one of these weapons? Doesn’t Walmart carry’em for hunting yet?
the heretic

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mike doyle November 16, 2005 at 8:00 am

the U.S.marines are pretty damn good but not as good as our British Royal marines,even if one of our guys has no weapon at all he can destroy enemy positions using things that people have left lying about,and then make off into the desert like he didnt exist,you see Britain is better than anyone else,because we are British,and thats a fact,In fact everyone wants to be British,even Johhny Arab,but thats where we British draw the line,it simply wont do,so we dont mind our American chums mucking in ,in the middle east,by bumping off these backward ,sheeps eye munching ,rag headed desert mongrels you’re doing us British a big favour,anyway you speak our language,I think you deserve to be made into honourary British citizens,and seeing as though our Queen owns your federal reserve bank,and our Prime minister gets on well with George W ,we might as well all be British,then everone else will have to follow suit,it makes sense to be British,because Britain is the best place on the planet,and London is the best place in Britain.

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the heretic November 16, 2005 at 8:02 am

I enjoy starting and ending the day crushing people under rubble. Also, screw the trees too. Haven’t scientists figured out a way we can live with out the blasted things. If I have one more fit of hay fever I will burn the things down myself. They can all be NUKED with the women and children of the god hated, freedom hating 3rd world. I am white, christian, adult, male who comes from a wealthy back ground and I am just simply better than most of them. BURN EM’
Is there any way I can get one of these weapons? Doesn’t Walmart carry’em for hunting yet?
the heretic

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Old Devil Dog November 16, 2005 at 8:09 am

I agree with Sgt A USMC, being a former marine I think that we should send every last one of these so called anti war / tree hugging liberals over to Iraq and Afganistan and put them on the front line and see how long they stick to those passive ideals.
Give our Marines the tools to get the job done or just give them the location and they will improvise over come and adapt to any situation.
Happy Birthdday Marines…
Semper Fi!!!!!

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Bob Kelly November 16, 2005 at 8:18 am

Looks like a great weapon to me. I was in Vietnam and as far as I am concerned the best weapon was Napalm, it always made me feel good to feel the heat. So if they can’t use Napalm, then I guess this will work. And to Old Devil Dog, Semper Fi!!! and I am with you, send the peace lovers over and see what progress they can make from the front lines. Our Marines and all the services are doing a great job over there. I commend them for carrying on our great tradition.

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Joshua Hays November 16, 2005 at 8:18 am

My initial thought is, it looks like an impressive new tool; one that can help keep Marines and soldiers alive. First and foremost, I believe that to be the ultimate end result that we are looking for.
I can add this from my own experience, no American serviceman goes into theatre with the intent to kill innocents. In fact, I have personnally witnessed servicemen and women risk their necks to provide medical care for a local civilian after a terrorist attack. While we were still fighting an enemy who was hiding inside a concrete building, a medic raced across a street and without any cover pulled a wounded child and a wounded man out of the line of fire. I can not believe that my brothers at arms would chance killing innocents unless it were absolutely necessary to the survival of themselves, and I believe that most commanders would weigh that choice hard before they make that call.
So, when considering the knowledge and creativity of the leadership of the United States military, I have no misgivings about sending them to war with this tool. I only wish that we had this weapon available while I was there. If so, I would still be there fighting alongside my comrades instead of sitting here in a wheelchair going to funerals and responding to some chatter on a damn message board.

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g November 16, 2005 at 8:21 am

What comes around….goes around. g

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Kimberly November 16, 2005 at 8:23 am

Get Permission to save our beloved Military Lives.
Get real. I can’t believe after everything we have been fighting for, this new weapon is a big surprise. Get over it. Our MEN AND WOMEN are over there trying to save lives and HONOR our Commander In Chief’s requests. You need to not forget what started this war. How they destroyed lives of innocent Americans. To many People are forgetting that. I say Good Luck and Carry on.

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Tom November 16, 2005 at 8:32 am

Truly pathetic when someone says we should check with lawyers first. People are getting to the point where they believe an Iraqi civilians life is worth more than an American Military life. THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!! If we can save American lives by using this weapon then this is a positive thing. When we have to talk to lawyers first during a war this is a negative thing. The reasons for being in this war is irrelevant at this point and for the purposes of this discussion. Use ANY weapon that can save AMERICAN lives……

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Sgt. A USMC November 16, 2005 at 8:44 am

To Mike Doyle:
I have nothing against the British, and I have worked directly with the British Royal Marines, but I would never…ever…make the mistake of saying anyone is better than United States Marines. As far as everyone wanting to be like the British…name 5 great American movies…name me the current fashion trends in America….name me 5 people in political positions in America….My point exactly. I can’t name you any of that for Britian so who wants to be who??. Oh yeah, and we brush our teeth.
With that said, thank you guys for all your support in Iraq and don’t take advantage of all we have done for you.

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Michael November 16, 2005 at 8:44 am

You ask people to care about AMERICAN lives. It is precisely because of these attitudes that people like me project our anger about the lies and actions of the US administration onto the US soldiers.
I accept that by expressing a preference over who should die if given a choice is a bit tasteless. Perhaps it would make it less tasteless if I also said that I regard a US soldiers life as worth more than any terrorist, anyone who supports terrorism, or anyone expressing a view that killing heaps of people including those ‘ragheads’ is a good thing.

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the heretic November 16, 2005 at 8:46 am

Well I was in the Civil War and back then we Mariners didn’t need no stinking fuel-air-bomb to kill a dirty reb. I would march right up to him and bite his face off. That’s all needed was my legs and my chompers. Leave that pansy crap to the enemy. HOO-HOO ka chew
And to you Brits. Check the Score Board mates. Last time I checked we kicked your butts out of our country. Not to mention the fact that we seem to be coming around every twenty years or so to save your fish and chip eatin lives. So go have some tea and leave the fightin’ to the real men.
HOOTER-HO,
Mariners!
Semper-Fimper

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Tom November 16, 2005 at 9:02 am

“You ask people to care about AMERICAN lives. It is precisely because of these attitudes that people like me project our anger about the lies and actions of the US administration onto the US soldiers.
I accept that by expressing a preference over who should die if given a choice is a bit tasteless. Perhaps it would make it less tasteless if I also said that I regard a US soldiers life as worth more than any terrorist, anyone who supports terrorism, or anyone expressing a view that killing heaps of people including those ‘ragheads’ is a good thing.”
I NEVER said killing heaps of people was good and I never used the raghead word. What I meant was using a weapon that can save ONE American life is WELL WORTH using.
I think projecting YOUR anger on the troops is exactly the problem we are having today. You may not agree with the war, you may not like Bush or the way our government is run. BUT, the soldiers are doing what they are told. They believe as we did during Vietnam that we doing our patriotic duty and came home and had rocks thrown at us, etc. Blame the administration, the government NOT the soldiers. If you are really upset write your congressmen(women), senators etc. These Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy, National Guard, Reserves men and women are the reason we can sit on the Internet and complain. Something EVERYONE on this discussion should remember!

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Michael November 16, 2005 at 9:13 am

Hi Tom,
Thanks for your reply. Sorry if you thought I was accusing you of using the term raghead. I wasn’t clear about it, but I was actually responding to what ‘bones’ wrote at 06:50 AM.
I have no problem with using a weapon that will save the life of any soldier against any other solider or terrorist, but not at the expense of civilian castualties on either side.
For the record I am neither American or British (although I hope to become a british citizen someday). I come from a country who doesn’t support the war in Iraq, although we have troops in Afghanistan, and have been doing work in Iraq to help the rebuilding.

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Nick November 16, 2005 at 10:02 am

The ists are trying to take over the world and we have to ask permission to shoot. The military lost officers in VN because of stupidity. Have the Marines turned into a bunch of wimps? Tell the world and the UN to go to the HOT place.Either that or become an anti-Christ muslim!
I’m a Vet.

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PFC Runnels USMC November 16, 2005 at 10:36 am

To all the service men and weman on this page thanks for the hard work an Sacrafice you make every day……….As for every one else who has a problem with them. Why dont you try walking in there shoes for just one day. Then you will change your tune and have a little respect for YOUR service men and weman.

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Jim Webb November 18, 2005 at 10:58 am

Cpl. Dwayne Hicks:
I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

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thatfigures November 18, 2005 at 11:37 am

I really don’t care how much you dislike the government, or thier policies, but to take tha dislike and anger and put it on the troops is stupid. They are doing what they are told to do to the best of thier ability. You don’t like it VOTE. Thanks to the troops we can do that.
Semper Fi MARINES

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anonymoustroll November 18, 2005 at 11:41 am

It’s been a while, but back when I was shuffled through the MCT arm of the SOI, we were taught leading with M203 frag rounds followed closely by CS was a really effective way to screw with the enemy (start the bleeding, deny first aid and produce non-OODA loop movement… pop-’em when they exit into your field of fire).
I also remember the humanitary bullshit about the 50cal being verbotten agains individual combatants. It’s a running joke among those who inhabit the professions involving combat arms.
The reality is *ANY* and *EVERY* weapon is authorized during times of war. What oppoents of the US need to remember is that we are the *ONLY* nation to have *EVERY* have used nuclear weapons in the process of making war… twice. What make *ANYONE* think a simple bunker buster would be a subject of contraversy?

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2311bombsquad November 18, 2005 at 12:11 pm

I work in a field where I see different rounds of ammunition every day. I see absolutley NOTHING WRONG with using these weapons. It helps us marines “arrange the meeting” without putting us in direct contact with the enemy. We are sworn to protect this country from all enemies foriegn and domestic. The new SMAW-NE is just helping us do it faster and better.
Where does the line end between Civilians and combatants? If a 6 year old child picks up a rifle, is he still a civilian or is he a combatant now? I guess it all depends on who you are and what you believe. I think that if you pick a a weapon to fire it you no longer have the protection of being classified a civilian.
As far a the civilian cassualties go, If you want to stay in a war ridden area and you end up dieing, it is for a greater good.
So I say if you got it, use it.
OohRahh

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James USMC Retired November 18, 2005 at 2:58 pm

The thermobaric weapon gives the assault Marine or Soldier a better chance of their survival rather than the finatic(s) inside a house or bunker. The people our troops are fighting do not play by the International Laws of War, yet our forces have to. As for Human Rights and collateral damage, this is war, not pattycake. Unfortunately civilian casualties will continue no matter how careful our combat forces are. I would like to see some of the Human Rights activists a fire fight and see just what they would to.

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peter November 18, 2005 at 3:02 pm

this is unreal! Who runs the show the marines or the public perception of the stronger but more friendly corp. I mean thisa is a war last time I checked? this is unreal that you are debating this. If it has this capacity not having to go in and fight through the kill house so be it. The casualty rate goes down all the better. It is sad that the press has more power. We are fighting animals with no regard for us. IT is written that in war you destroy your enemy his family and his offspring so that you never have to fight them again and you never create the idea of extremism so that you are feared and you eliminate the possibiltiy resistance you deal with them with the iron fist. this idea of the good war and more friendly war no colateral damage this type war cannot be won. Besides I dont understand who all of that american oil got under all of that Iraqi sand

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roberts November 18, 2005 at 3:11 pm

well gentlemen and all of the AMERICAN TAXPAYERS that are paying for EVERYTHING. After reading a number of the comments and trying to decide whether it was even a good idea to post anything at all i decided that maybe just a note would do . i am an honorable discharged u.s. marine of the real viet “[police action]” 67-69 and even “GOD” sent his people to WAR ;you know the JEWS not CHRISTIANS . What nationality is CHRISTIAN ????! Jesus did not sign up christians; He signed up JEWS ,GOD’S people ? !!!!!! Now WAR is not a nicy business , but in the standard vinue of all time each has brought it on themselves ,YES the JEWS too. when you mess up,duh. Who is right GOD– or you ? ! YES, go ahead — say it ,from the few comments i read ,supposing that these people are not a majority anyway . DARE GOD –SHAKE YOUR FIST AT HIM !ONLY THE STYLE OF DELIVERY IS DIFFERENT AS I AM NOT PRIVY TO HOW LARGE A THERMO GRENADE WAS AVAILIBLE IN MY DAY . bUT YOU CAN BET A POT OF BOILING OIL WILL STICK TO YOU OFF THE CASTLE WALL . THINK A LITTLE ,BEFORE YOU POST YOUR COMMENTS.[IF YOU CAN AT ALL] P.S. TO THE BRITISH FELLOW ;THANK-YOU FOR YOUR INPUT , SO THAT SOME OF US CAN SEE THAT YOU HAVE SOME REAL ISSUES THAT NEED SOME SERIOUS CONCERN AND OBSERVATION PREFERABLE IN A CONTROLLED FACILITY .AS IF IT HAD NOT BEEN FOR THE JAPANESE YOU MIGHT BE SPEAKING GERMAN DER DUMCOF KINDER .IF IT WAS NOT FOR LEND LEASE THEY WOULD HAVE WALKED THROUGH LONG BEFORE THE JAPANESE EVENT !!!!!! GET IT? AS IN IRAQ ,IF AT LEAST ,THE BRITISH HAD GOT OFF THEIR TEA AND CRUMPET AND THE AMERICAN RUMSFELT [WHO HAS THE INVOICES FOR THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION THAT WE DID SELL TO SADDUMB IE. CHEM/BIO] GOT OFF THEIR DUFFS AND DID THE JOB CORRECTLY EVEN THIS WAR WOULD NOT BE AS BAD AS IT IS ! LEGO-LETUS MAKE A VIETNAM ! WHAT PART OF SOLIDIER DID THIS SQUICKY WHEEL DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND—THIS IS NOT A GAME ! A VERY OFFENSIVE WORD ! THE SPOILS OF WAR AND GREED ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS . THOUGH THE MEDIA HAS THE RIGHT AND INDEED MY BLESSING EVEN IF THEY ARENOT VERY GOOD AT IT THEY HAVE EXPOSED THE CITIZENS THOSE THINGS THAT AS OWNERS/TAXPAYERS WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW, REGARDLESS IF THE GOVERNMENT THINKS WE NEED OR ARE COMPETENT TO KNOW . WHEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DECIDE THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE CHARGE OF THEIR COUNTRY THEN WILL THINGS BE AS WE SAY THEY ARE —–THE LAND OF THE FREE——! THE WHOLE U.S. CITIZENSHIP IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT ! NOT JUST BUSH ! ETC.SO IF YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MINORITY SQUICKY WHEEL AND MAKE RULES TO APPEASE THEM YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE?!?!?!?!
EVER USE A SHAPE CHARGE TO TAKE OUT A BUILDING OR BUILD ONE? EVER RUN A BULLDOZER TANK IN ONE SIDE AND OUT THE OTHER ? FOO-GAS WILL STICK TOOOOOOO YOU ? !
IF YOU GO TO WAR–DO IT–RIGHT . HUMANITARIAN COMES AFTER YOU CLEAR GROUND TO TO HOLD THOSE WHO ‘CLAIM’ TO BE CIVILIAN? WITH A PICTURE AND PRINTS [AND NON-PAROLE PRISON/DEATH] FOR THOSE THAT BREAK IT AND CLEAN SLATE FOR THE REST COMBATANTS! PRISON WORK FARM FOR FOR THE SURRENDERS.———-OR DO IT YOUR WAY AND SEND IN THE HUMANITARINS——FIRST THEN THE SOLIDERS !!!!!!!!!! HA HA MAYBE TRY THE “NEW?” SOUND GUN ON A CRUISE SHIP ??????????????????? WHAT?! REAL SEASONED COMBAT WARRIOR ! RICK

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LoveUSA November 18, 2005 at 4:42 pm

Did I read about COWARDS on this side?!?!
Hmm, that reminds me of all the US-Tourists in Europe and elsewhere that are officialy advised to pretend to be Canadian for their own good. Always talking about what a great nation the US is and when it comes to the point where you’re asked by your closest allies where you’re from, you neglect the very same “great nation”?!?!???
Guess why? It’s really a shame. Do you have an idea what that has to do with this site and the comments?

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AJ November 18, 2005 at 4:52 pm

Why do yall ppl worry too much about “civilian” casualties? This is a war for gods sake. Instead of worrying about what this weapon will do too the civilians, think about how it will help our troops. This helps save our own men, just shoot the damn thing and let the insurgents die. By the way, how can u tell the diffrence between a “civilian” and an insurgent from Iraq. U cant. All they have to do is pick up a weapon, shoot our men, drop the weapon and theyre a “civilian” again. So think about it ppl.

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SSG Ray Grosser November 18, 2005 at 5:44 pm

There are times it is difficult to understand why so many in this nation have such a difficult time understanding that there are bad guys trying to kill us, for no other reason than we are US. I say deploy the weapon and use it. War is a serious business and requires serious ordinance, and in the hands of skilled soldiers and marines, fewer of them will be killed or injured while the enemy dwindles down to a force of wimpering ingrates who will sue for peace. Send some of these to Israel as well. Former SSG Ray Grosser, US Army Airborne

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ChemDog November 18, 2005 at 8:59 pm

Holy Crap! I for one, am getting tired of all these “cherries” telling soldiers that war is just too mean. DUH, we know, we’re the ones fighting it!
As for the weapon itself, BIG DEAL! It’s not the next A-bomb people. All it does (from what I can gather) is add a little punch to increase the internal presures INSIDE a structure, which tend to make the building fall down and go boom. I’d recon that if someone wasn’t inside SHOOTING at our soldiers, then the building has nothing to worry about.
Sounds like a much more precise weapon than the million dollar smart bombs, and can be deployed on the ground when needed by the men that need it. Geez….

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Alfred Knowitall November 18, 2005 at 9:46 pm

These and other new exotic weapons are being prepared for use against U.S. populations– and if you don’t think so, some research would substantiate this in part, and with minimal reasoning one can adduce the rest. This isn’t going to convert anyone but those already informed, but maybe it will start some thinking. The Pentagon has admitted that it has tested microwave weapons in Iraq that caused the passengers on a bus to shrink to the size of infants (sound familiar to your microwave?), and that police departments in the U.S. can have them, and therefore will. The rationale is that it will only be sting the skin and will be used for crowd control.Other weapons include, sound that can kill, induce vomiting, and scatter enemies running, also supposedly for crowd control; a laser rifle that blinds the enemy, but will only be used in the U.S. for temporary blindness; the use of mercenary forces, usually from other countries who won’t have compunction about killing Americans on U.S. soil, and were used in New Orleans during Katrina. These are just a few facts. Now, consider that the President long ago approved an executive order tha sets aside the constitution at his will and imposes martial law (no more rights), and recently said that the so-called bird flu may require “quarantinning” areas of the U.S., even though doctors say the procedure would have “zero value” in an epidemic; so instead, just think military control instead of the word quarantine and you can see what’s coming. ONe way or another, all the types who think they won’t get my gun “out my my cold dead hands” would be wise to consider that when this happens they won’t worry about your guns. They can stand up to a kilometer away and use these weapons that can cover huge areas in one use and render the undesirable population dead or helpless. One of the problems with the media is that they don’t examine motives of people; that is, why would anyone do this to their own people, such as Bush or Cheny. The reason is simple, though, statistically speaking, it’s unlikely that anyone reading this would believe it. Bush and the Cheney crowd don’t actually believe in democracy. They want are preparing to turn the country in a third world nation with 10 percent having lots of mone and the rest poor. Can you see the mounting evidence.For them, democracy is merely organizing behavior to keep you pacificied long enough to gut the economy and get you under control before you figure out that someone has his iron hand on your throat. Believe it. It’s coming to a neighborhood near you very soon, marshal law by one euphimism or another, bird flu or some other excuse. By the way, you’re not going to be a member of the new club if you survive. Now go have a good burger and a beer and tell yourself it’s conspiracy theory crap. Bye.

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gunner November 18, 2005 at 10:04 pm

Ask the Marines on the front line if they need a more humane weapon or a “tool” that will help ensure their survival. For those who think we should use weapons that limit civilian casualities to “win their hearts and minds” I say KMA. Did our enemies use limited and humane weapons when they struck the USS Stark, the USS Samuel B Roberts, the USS Cole, or the attacks on 9/11. Give the troops the tools they need, the authority to use those tools, and leave the bleeding hearts at home.

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Major Bob USMC Vet November 19, 2005 at 12:51 am

David -
Public discussion about the design, application, and effectiveness of new weapons? Ummm, have you forgotten that concept we call SECURITY? Secrecy keeps men alive on the battlefield. Your idea SOUNDS nice, but we had better not be so naive as to think our enemies will cover their eyes and ears and promise not to peak while we openly debate the relative nicety of our newest means of killing them. Oh, the enemy also has to promise not to develop tactical or technical countermeasures to our weapon until after we use it on them with some degree of regularity- just as if they had no idea it was coming. The fact that they listen in on our “public debate” before fielding our new weapon really just has to be ignored by them, and they have to promise they will forget everything they overheard. Kinda like a “do-over” on a grade school playground.
Your comment: “Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide “we do/do not to use X”. Otherwise when the media find do find out as they always do — not only do you get a level of hysteria but there is also the charge of covering up.” Truth: Guess what – we are covering up… intentionally and with good reason. It’s called military security.
Public discussion about the ethics of using a new weapon is ludicrous. Such a discussion is best left to the professionals who live and die by the effectiveness of their weapons and equipment, and best kept behind closed doors. And these discusions take place and are debated vigourously among experts (not novices) in military ethics, history, weaponry, and international law of war. The notion that human rights activists have any clue about what constitutes a “humane” weapon and what doesn’t is foolish – here’s why … no lethal weapon is humane, and every lethal weapon is humane. It simply boils down to who pulls the trigger and who writes the history books after the war. For example: Were Fat Boy and Little Boy humane weapons? You bet they were; if you happened to be one of the million plus Marines and soldiers preparing to invade Japan. If, however, you were Japanese and lost your entire family to blast, heat, and radiation in a single afternoon, you might have a different opinion about the humane use of strategic nuclear weapons.
Here is something every Marine learns nowadays in bootcamp: “Combat efficiency: the ability to accomplish a mission with minimal loss of human life (on both sides)minimum expenditure of resources, and minimum collateral damage, in the shortest possible time.” That’s humane; that’s how we do business, and the business does involve killing. If your concern is for the innocent civilians inhabiting a building that gets crushed by a SMAW-NE, ask yourself this question: Why didn’t the innocent civilians in the builidng being used by the insurgents just pick up a stout stick and bash the insurgents’ heads in? Why do the Marines have to fight a fight these people should be fighting for themselves? If more Iraqis grew some balls and went toe to toe with the bad guys taking over their homes, we wouldn’t have to blast their insurgent occupied homes. So your notion about losing hearts and minds every time a civilian gets in the way, stays in the way, or stands around gaping at a firefight is nice copy, but flies in the face of human behavior and good old fashioned common sense.
I don’t mean to sound condescending or insulting, but for God’s sake – get your head screwed on straight!

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Kathy November 19, 2005 at 2:58 am

In reference to suicide bombers not being afraid of anything but missing the target, the thing to remember is that once they’re gone, they’re gone. Suicide bombers are not a renewable resource. And there are only so many muslims that are willing to be suicide bombers. If they kill themselves faster than they reproduce, and keep in mind that the majority of them are male, the law of diminishing returns comes into play. Sooner or later muslims will run out of suicide bombers, as will palestinians.

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Richard November 19, 2005 at 3:34 am

War is war. It is not moral but necessary. Like when carpet bombing Germany and Japan it was brutal but necessary. Those who think that they can stop civilian deaths are kidding themselves and cause wars to prolong. Vietnam was winnable if we did what we know was necessary and let the military do it’s job. Those who think they can negotiate for peace are only giving the enemy more time to get ready. Read up on your Pre-World War Two history and remember about Hitler and Appeasement. Those who want to restrict the use of this weapon only are giving the terrorists more chances to survive. War will have civilian casualties, it’s good to try and limit them but will happen none the less. Let the military do it’s job

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Gysgt Mac November 19, 2005 at 3:44 am

Hey what a great idea about debating the use of a weapons system with the human rights advocates before we give it to our troops to fight with. I have an even better solution. How about we attach a lawyer and a politician to every unit, right down to the fire team level. That way, they can be right there in the thick of things to make sure that our troops act according to all of our legal codes and only kill people in a proper, legal, “humane” fashion. In fact, just before a battle our politicians and lawyers can have a sit down with the other side and work out all the legal arrangements before the fight just to make sure we’re all playing by the same rules. Oh yeah, the other side doesn’t play by any rules do they? Hmmm…Well, hey at least when we’re putting our boys in the ground we can be proud that we followed the rules and didn’t violate anybody’s “human rights.”

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education November 19, 2005 at 5:47 am

war is a failure on all sides..
never forget that!
war is never a freakin answer!
it is a failure and the wars of today fuel the hatred of tomorrow!

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eric faucett November 19, 2005 at 10:16 am

ok…. why doesn’t anybody come out with some publication getting back all of the negetivity about war and politics. I’m a senior in highschool, and I understand, that if terrorist bastards would QUOTE “Negotiate” then peace and paper solutions would be used. But when you have some insurgent assholes that only wanna destruct, I want someone to tell me how you peaceably negotiate with them. I think it was Martin Luther King who said “An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice EVERYWHERE” So if you have Al Quaida over there, growing and fueling a huge regime, then what are we to do, sit like a bunch of bitches and wait to take it. No, if at 911 Bush would not have done anything about it, then what would the nation have said or done? They would have impeached his ass, and they would complain about that. So then he sends troops over, and stuff happens, and now we all complain. Here’s my philosophy: “Life is tough, get a helmet” I mean come on, if there are easier ways to accomplish whatever needs to be accomplished, then please, someone tell us all, but all I know is that war is gonna suck for everybody. But, in the end, positive can come out of it, and don’t cry about the death rate, yeah, it sucks, that’s WAR for you, but it’s gonna happen, get some dudes out there with some firepower on each other, and then you have some death. I think people, (i.e., Cindy Shehan(or however you spell her)) should keep their stuff shut. I think all that woman wanted to do was get into history books, cuz her son that died, kinda chose to be in the military. His choice, wasn’t forced lady, I’m sorry, but if he was forced, then you may have had a better reason to gripe about it. Why can’t we all just get along, and accept what happens. I don’t follow politics perfectly, I just catch a little bit here and there. So I can’t tell you if Bush is perfect or not, but he seems fine to me. He has a pretty tough job, being President and all, so i think the nation could give him a break, because we can all sit here at home “SAFELY” and chat on our computers and drive to and from, also we can enjoy our “SAFE” American lives, so we should shutup and know our roles, because in the end, we jeopordize our self-security by this on-going slaughter we see ourselves in at putting down the president, and the war, and how bad things are, please, my showers are hott, my heater works, my truck runs, got DirecTv, internet is slow, but hey, it still chugs along, school sucks, but is good for me, got that everyday, umm, the radio is fine, seems to be a Civil War all over that stupid and I Quote “N Word”, but hey, my clothes are clean, my food is hott, my gas is expensive and roof doesn’t leak, so you know what… I’m thankful for America, because of all of these blessings we have that are taken for granted everyday. Shut your mouth America, for you are ignorant in your ways “while you sleep at home warm under the blanket of protection that we provide.” We are safe, the streets are clean, ha, for the most part, if anything, lets start griping about corrupt law enforcement, or something that is actually an issue. For the people, of the people, and by the people. But…. one exception.. our nation is divided in so many directions, we just need to shut it. Thank you for your time,
Eric Faucett
Waurika, OK 73573

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Malcolm Massie November 19, 2005 at 10:20 am

Why must we listen to the handwringing of human rights activists over a new weapon system? What is more destructive, this new shoulder launched weapon, designed to break down structures within which enemy troops are most likely taking shelter, or an area weapon such as an artillery barrage? Or for that matter, if concern about pin-point destructive weapons is the factor, how about a 120mm tank round of HE fired through a window, and set for delay fusing? NO one on these activist boards seems to say a damn thing about the activities of the enemy – especially such dastardly deeds as the recent bombings in Amman, or the random killing of civilians by car bombers throughout Baghdad. No, we must make sure that OUR guys fight with marshmallows and limp noodle hockey sticks, otherwise we might hurt someone. These are the same folks that will scream bloody murder for our troops to protect them if and when the bad guys start really winning and come here and oppress them. I am a three times combat vet from ‘Nam and have seen at close hand just what the bad guys do when let loose. Saddam may not have had WMDs on hand when we invaded, but he sure did use them against his own folks – the Kurds up north come to mind – and would not have hesitated to use them against us if given the opportunity – he said that in Gulf War 1. Wake up people. We are in a world war against these folks, whether you like it or not, and if we lose it, the consequences will be far more terrible than what we are now seeing. Use what weapons we have with their best capabilities to eliminate them and take care of us. Buck Massie, Major USMC (Ret)

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The Comfy Chair November 19, 2005 at 1:22 pm

The essence of war is violence! Moderation in war is imbecility!.
- John Arbuthnot Fisher
The problem with modern warfare is that we fight to achieve complex goals and are governed by obtuse laws and lead by politicians not Generals. Unfortunately, when troops go in to achieve goals which have a dual nature of both easily defined military components and conflicting political components, a balance needs to be struck in order to achieve both. This necessitates compromises on both weapons and tactics, and sadly, compromise or Moderation means troops die.
The current justification of the war in Iraq is to bring Freedom and Peace and Democracy to the Iraqi people. Killing the bad guys or the evil doers is a core component of that campaign, but the secondary objective involves winning the Iraqi people over to the ideals of Freedom and Democracy. These brave men and women are over there dying; not just to kill terrorists, but, to bring Freedom and Democracy to the middle east. Whether or not you agree with these goals or the justification for the war in the first place this is why they are there now.
Personally, I would not shed a tear, let alone a drop of my own or anothers blood to bring peace to the Middle East. I would rather blanket the entire region in an infinite rain of JDAM hell than see another soldiers family mourn the loss of their child. I may not agree with the administrations choice for war, but I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for any man or woman who chooses to serve their country and put their lives on the line in its defense. If it was up to me they would have every weapon imaginable to simply wipe the face of the earth clean of anything or anyone that might threaten their safety and damn the consequences or collateral damage. I dont believe that any American lives should be wasted on this badly thought out war (see quote at the top). Unfortunately, I dont get to make policy, I dont get to define the goals we have over there, but I do understand the ones the current administration has chosen, and the sacrifice necessary to achieve them in the way that the politicians have planned it.
It is our assertion that we have a better way of life, and we are trying to bring that way of life to the oppressed peoples of the Middle East. If we want them to see a better way, then we must live up to the ideals we hold dear and the standards that we are espousing. This is why we have to be better than everyone else at all times be smarter, hold a higher moral and legal standard, be tougher, be more courageous and cleave to justice and mercy when others would not. This is why we must follow the rule of law, cling to our highest ideals, live up to our treaties and not cheapen the sacrifice of those who are over there shedding their blood in the desert sands by cheating, cutting corners and taking the easy way out when it goes against everything we know is right.
This is why we have to ask ourselves every step along the way; Is this the right thing to do? Is this the moral and legal thing to do? Is this choice consistent with achieving BOTH of our goals? If you can answer yes to all of these questions then you must be on the right course and God Bless you.

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Scot Elliott November 19, 2005 at 2:34 pm

Having been a SMAW gunner and putting HEAA rounds into suspected pillboxes, it sounds like the NE is a good addition to the toolbox.
Fortis et Animus

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jim November 19, 2005 at 3:31 pm

whatever it takes to save more of our guys lives and get rid of the terrorists.

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F. Bright November 19, 2005 at 4:25 pm

Mike is right.

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Troy Miceli November 19, 2005 at 4:47 pm

I’m trying to kill you, do I really have to be nice too?

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BJ November 19, 2005 at 10:05 pm

Those flame throwers that my Dad used in the south pacific during WWII were also pretty horrible. But their use beat the heck out of charging a pillbox with only a rifle and hand grenades. Sometimes it seems that you just need to get a little heavy handed with the enemy.

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Sud November 20, 2005 at 12:19 am

Quite entertaining. Not the article, but the comments left by joe bubba Q Americans self-congratulating themselves on finding new and improved ways of "stompin dem dere stinkin pakis"
Hopefully, you can one day yourself experience the "acceptable and necessary" "collateral damage" first hand yourself, as some 12 year old Jihad kid strapped up with several kilos of explosives knocks on your door and bids you welcome to wherever we go when we're dead, as payment for some redneck overseas getting a little too trigger happy with his rocket launcher.

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DrZaius November 20, 2005 at 12:51 am

I’m so sick of this “War for Oil” bullshit…
The left has been spreading that shit for so long now that it would be unfeasible for us to take a single drop from Iraq after this war is over. Yet we are still there, we can leave at any time. So with the ‘spoils’ of war out the window (the oil right?) why would be hang around? Oh yeh. We are murderous capitalist pigs, etc etc etc..
Get off it.

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Dennis November 20, 2005 at 2:43 am

Cowicide???
WTF? You are a dumb bastard, but do realy beleive all that liberal BS???? Oh look! the terrorist will leave us alone if we leave there land! LMAO!! You Dumb Bastard! Have you ever read the Koran?????????????? Does the Us and Israel strike something your local CNN wont dare cover? Know what, your worthless not even worth the sake of time. Sleep tight asshole, by the way, did Osama declair Holy war after or before we helped his wipe the Soviets ass?????????? Oh yeah…….. It was for oil. Sad, sad, sad……..

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Neg November 20, 2005 at 11:58 am

Get the Liberals and Media OUT of the war zone, and let the Military take care of business! We don’t need to be giving sympathy to terrorists.
Geneva Convention “Rules”, I believe only pertain to the Armed Forces of Countries, not mercenaries!
This is a great weapon, so let’s see what it can really do!
PS: I think the United States should stop all this “ass kissin’” going under the guise of being Politically Correct.

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David Hambling November 20, 2005 at 2:33 pm

Bob: “Public discussion about the design, application, and effectiveness of new weapons? ”
No, that’s not what I was suggesting. My point was that controversial weapons need to be the subject of open discussion, otherwise problems will arise.
This is NOT a matter of “cool new weapon vs bleeding-heart liberals.”
The issue has to whether tactical utility is outweighed by the negative effects on a larger scale.
One picture of a little girl burned by napalm had a significant impact on the public perception of the Vietnam war – even though the napalm was not dropped by US forces.
With any controversial weapon we have to consider what the political effect will be on allies – losing their support may be costly. There is also the effect on the home front, the effect on the Iraqi political process, and the effect on the Muslim world – at present only a fraction of all Muslims are violently anti-US.
So any controversial weapon, be it napalm, WP, thermobarics or anything else must be evaluated carefully.
To take an extreme example, using nerve gas on a bunker filled with insurgents might be highly effective and might even play well with some of the domestic US audience, but in the long run it would be catastrophic.

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Dennis November 20, 2005 at 2:40 pm

Thor,
My,my,my what a hatefull little man you are. No I did not use your thoughts as to the Osama thing.
Yes, I have read the Koran douchebag. Face it, this is a holy war in the eyes of isamic extremest
Do I feel good about children being killed? Ahhhhh
NO! And if you ask the majority of Marines on this site they will agree. Lets look at this. If I seen a 8 year old boy strapped with explosives comming toward my unit or a populized area of people whould I put one in his head? YES! The tactics of the islamic jihadist are in way similar to those of Viet Nam. Oh and your other question about the bible, well son, the bible is 100% true, the Koran being the only book that has stayed true to the origonal text, meaning that its never been translated is 100 differant translations like the bible is the only thing I can say about it. But mohammed being the phesant and theif he was and the fact that your reward in heaven is that of fleshly desire does not line up with God. why would he condem adultry and fornication but then reward you with wine and virgins afterward? Seems like you are the one who needs to do the reading. Yes I know, I am only taking out key issues of the Koran. I suppose you will tell me how wrong I am, but i will tend to beleive my friend Jahffae who is from Iran and has never missed a day of prayer since he was a child over you when dealing with my facts of the muslum religon. I do not rejoyce when innocent children are killed, let me ask you, did you rejoyce when Timmothey killed all those people???
how about the USS Cole? a simple resupply deserved the horrid actions of some islamic asshole? Listen, no one likes to see innocent people killed, its just what happens in war. when I was in the Middle East, I had compassion for those who wanted the same thing as I, Peace. But I would not hesitate to end the life of some jerk shooting anyone who did not conform to his jihad bullshit. What about Africa? I dont see the UN doing anything about that. And as for the US? Damm if we do damm if we dont. Go to school litte boy, learn before you speak and my God, dont argue with someone who could be your dad LMAO!!!!!

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SkysoldierRecon November 17, 2009 at 5:19 pm

yeah, we are in a war of civilizations and religion. the faster the WEST realizes it, the faster we will win it. throw the arbs out of EUROPE..damn they are ding wat the turks couldn't by force of arms..OUTBIRTHING indig. pops. kinda sneaky huh? fuck 'em, they wanted war, we should let 'em have it…CALIPHATE…lol!! they WANT our countries, our lands..die moslem mother fuckers…DIE…yeah, i have alotta HATE..so wat??!!

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Daniel Roach November 20, 2005 at 2:40 pm

This new weapon will be a great asset to the 0351 Assaultman’s arsenal. Not that the current SMAW doesn’t do a good enough job. Its just that in war it is essential to have the best weapon available to ensure your safe return home. Those critics that are worried about collateral damage that can, and most likely will result from this weapon must have forgotten what brought us into this war. Think about all the lives of normal, everyday people that were taken away on that day. I am an 0311 in the Marine Corps and will love to have the Assaultman that will accompany me into battle to carry around this weapon. This way I would have a better possibility of coming home safe.
Semper Fi.
Daniel Roach, PFC/USMC

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lol November 20, 2005 at 3:32 pm

some poeple just contradicted themselves.
You are basically trying to say war happens and is wrong, so you can use whatever weapons you want?
lol, then why did USA invade iraq again?
and the USA cry “dont beleive the anti-US propaganda.”
It dont bother non Americans, because the fact the USA brainwash the American public, it dont amtter, coz its the American Lives at stake.
2000+ americans dead, and for what?

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Cpl Bliss Retired November 20, 2005 at 4:05 pm

Keep using it for it will save our MARINES.
the only ones complaining are the bleeding hearts.

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Nathan November 20, 2005 at 10:41 pm

Look damnit, we’re over in Iraq and Afganistan for good reasons. Now we can kill the enemy easier with this new weapon. Use it to kill, and lots of it. Semper Fi! Good job Marines.
Nathan

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PeXi November 21, 2005 at 12:40 am

Unbelieveable comments mostly.
Makes me feel ashamed to be a human.
Are you living in a dreamworld people?
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
How many times you need to hear that before you actually realise it?
What are those good reasons to attack Iraq Nathan? I haven’t heard any reason that is even close being enough to attack Iraq.

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Booyah November 21, 2005 at 12:55 am

.
All you stoked-up wannabee killing machines: eventually you live in the reality you create. So good luck trying to escape these horrible weapons when they are turned against you and yours. Do you have feelings of sympathy for the pain of other people, the suffering of other people? No, it appears that you’re just fascinated by the “coolness” of these killing machines. How sad for you! And no, I don’t need you to “protect” me. I see you and your kind as the problem. You are in every culture, in every society, in every country, down through the ages. You who put your energy into war are wasting your valuable lives on a grand failure instead of a grand solution.
.

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Pissed Off American November 21, 2005 at 1:43 am

“In the case of Fallujah everyone I know that went said they never once saw a noncombatant in the city. Blahblahblah…….”
Posted by: The Cenobyte
You’re full of shit.

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Michael November 21, 2005 at 6:05 am

Hi Wild Snide,
I would reply get over the U.S. casualties crap. I find it amazing how much the U.S. people bitch about their soldiers getting killed when they go to war. If you want to keep your soldiers alive keep them at home. If however you want to fight in Iraq you have to stop whining like a bunch of pussies about your casualties.
You talk about liberation. I doubt very much Iraqis view the U.S. as having liberated them. Indeed an Iraqi friend of mine said Saddam was 10 times as bad as was reported, but they regard the US and esp. George Bush as no better, what as he brought them, death, torture, and chaos.
I have no problem with fighting a ‘war’ on terror, or liberating Iraq. The problems I have are twofold.
1. Don’t confuse the two issues. If you change stories half way through (as the administration did), then the only conclusion we can come to is that the US people were lied to. The rest of us knew that George Bush was full of it.
2. Don’t think the rest of the world cares about your soldiers more than the civilians in Iraq.
For those of you trying to figure out where I am from, I’ll give you another clue. More than 10% of my country travelled a long way to fight in the fields of Europe. However most of the people in my country view the US efforts as illegal.

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arthurdecco November 21, 2005 at 10:18 am

First let me say this: My dad was in the air force for 25 years. I was raised in the forces. I joined the cadets (a form of militia for teenagers here in Canada) as soon as I could. Now I’m a middle-aged man with mostly centrist views and still with a soft spot for the armed forces. My son is presently in the militia, (much like your National Guard) with my support. But you can call me a liberalcommieweenie if it makes you feel better.
That said, I believe anyone who uses a weapon that kills as indiscriminately as this one is by definition a war criminal. There can be no justification for its use. This weapon will ONLY save lives in the minds of those who use and sell it. You can rest assured that this kind of terror will only INCREASE the threats faced by your soldiers by uniting everyone against you because they fear you. That’s how wars are lost – and believe me, you’ve already lost this war. The enemy has become everyone. (So much for winning hearts and minds!) It’s time to find a political solution to this morass and bring your soldiers home to safety.
One further thought – I’m astounded at the sheer number of psychopaths that choose to post on this site. Get professional help, fellas, before its too late for you.
And like Michael Moore said the other day – There’s a lot more people thinking like me these than there are that think like you guys. Your numbers are in “fringe” territory.
Thank God.

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Tag November 21, 2005 at 10:48 am

Well what do you know? The military has produced a BFG.

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Marines mom November 21, 2005 at 12:01 pm

When you have children lobbing grenades and women strapping on bombs how exactly are you suppose to figure out who is an innocent?
This whole discussion is rediculous if you want to argue whether we should be there or not then do it. But if you are going to put my son in harms way at least give him the weaponry that will keep him alive!
What do I know right? I am just a stupid American mom of a US Marine. Whatever!!
And those of you who say we should pull out right now please let us know, stand up and be accounted for because we want you to go to a certain area of the country where are military will not be responsible for protecting your butt Then when Al-qaida makes a trip accross the pond. Then you can all hold hands and have a long discussion with them about how the Stupid Americans are just an awful bunch of people and then after they have cut off your heads you might get the point they don’t like you or your culture!! The only good American to them is a dead one being it liberal or conservative.

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Timothy Forde November 21, 2005 at 12:43 pm

I think that it is always a good thing to debate the use and morality of using a new weapon such as this.
However, at the end of the day – our adversaries will not hesitate to use any weapon that they can get their hands on, including this one. So, even if we decide not to use it. That means our potential enemies will have this weapon and we won’t. Just because we are moral.
I guarantee that the Russian produced RPG version of this is just as deadly if not more so than our own. WHY should we deprive ourselves of the same weapon or a counter-weapon (if you will)?
As nasty as this oxygen-sucking – fuel air explosive is, I think that it is necessary.
It appears to be great on buildings and bunkers.
However, the possibility of fratricide and unintential civilian deaths needs to be addressed to all potential users. This simply means that this weapon needs to be used with great care. Not that any weapon is ever used without care.
The unfortunate thing is that any use of a weapon like this means that you are almost always going to potentially kill unintentially civilians and other friendlys in the area.
I think that that is a risk that most soldiers are willing to take. The problem will arise when such fratricide and unintentional deaths of civilians take place. HOW do you live with yourself? That is a tough question to ask and to have to live with.

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Dennis November 21, 2005 at 1:04 pm

Fellow soldiers,
It seems the mouths of those who have never served once again know more than the people who are over there. I cannot beleive I still see the (war for oil) bullshit on here. Once again be reminded that Saddam funded the terrorist. To look into it deeper, why are we picking on N. Korea? Oh, for oil, thats right, what about Iran? Ahhh, I forgot, oil again. Most people including myself get wrapped up into the news and start to beleive what we hear by people like Wolf blitzer and Dan Rather. The fact remains that the majority of the civilian population will never know what happens at the Presidenatial briefs. It just hit me that when I post to comment on people who say thigs like(you dick suckers)ect..about our service men and wemon, I am just waisting time arguing with high school kids who know nothing. The kids on this forum are like a bunch of John Kerry clones. They thribe on what there social studies teacher tells them or what they see on CNN. (Humanbeing) is a perfect example of what a liberal is. He states that Bush is responsible for his lost pen, Christian and ect.. are the blame for what happens in the US. Yet the same Democratic party wants diversity. What a joke. The democratic party has SOME good ideas but for the most part everything they do is a lie. Look at Tom Dash-hole, he bitched about tax dollars being spent on the military yet his wife lobbied for Bowing and instead of letting the military buy outright good o’l Tom got contracts to lease these planes wich cost the tax payer triple the $$$. Do you see the liberals talking about this? Nope, cause there great leaders would be exposed. Anyhow, have a nice day

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ArmyTeach November 21, 2005 at 2:08 pm

“let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up.”
“Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first.”
Really! War is not won by legal people or fought by debateing societies. When we send our military heroes into war, the nitpicking should stop. Our military are known for their compassion as much as for their might and they deserve our trust and our support. Not a single military life should be lost because we failed to use the munitions and resources available. That would be a scandal!

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Brad Sommerfeld November 21, 2005 at 5:57 pm

In war, weather weapons production or use,
there is no room for discussion of human rights.
The right to be human is already decided to be lost, by your opponent. therefore, in their families, and neighbors, there is no right to life either.
In war, there is war, and it should be absolute, and made to achieve victory, nothing else.
If we would remember these simple truths of warfare, Iraq would be its own right now, with our troops home right now. Why?
We should have destroyed the entire region with everything we had, or else not gone in at all.
Why preserve a people that allowed the situation to devolve to its current point anyway?
If they wont make change on their own, they dont deserve to be helped to make change from others.
Like my Father always said, “If you are willing to help yourself first, then I am willing to help you”. I hope they develop new rounds for our Marines to fire that have the same explosive/damage capability as a .02 ounce chunk of heavy-duty explosives.
Thank You for the news.

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Willie November 21, 2005 at 6:16 pm

Americans call themselves civilized -
What a load of crap, sooner or later if not already everybody on this earth will see you for what you are – a bunch of murderous bullies.

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PICKLES November 21, 2005 at 6:23 pm

if it saves one Marine and kills 1 insurgent its good for me, damn the Lawyers and PAO’s.
I was in NAM, damn the politics, use what we have and buy more. Save American lives. This is like NAM in you don’t know who you are fighting by day and night.
Fight wars to win not played by call Command to see if we can return fire.

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Dennis November 21, 2005 at 6:32 pm

JOZ,
I cant beleive I am going to say this but, Shit, I agree with some of your points. I am an American,served as a US Marine and also served in the US Army. Your quote(Dont underestimate propaganda) is the most common sence thing I have seen on here. I know what you mean by the US not understanding what its like to haveing a super power take over, and you give a great example in explaining that. That is why the US is the way it is. History shows us that every Superpower has its day. I hate to say that about my own country but facts are facts. The Roman empire, Egyptions,hell even the Middle East befor 1911(the year 1911) was under a somewhat calm leadership. But, I gotta ask ya something. The UK is growing and shapeing right? In history any country that prospers becomes the point of intrest. In the US its damm if you do damm if you dont. If we stayed to ourselves wich I would love to see, cosed off all imports and boarders and hoarded all of our economic power, the world would be bullshit over it. we are tring to (liberate) a country when we have homeless in our own. We point our fingure at every other problem when we have so many of our own. The problem with that is our political parties. Both sides are f&*ked up. bothe are out for themselves kinda like how the Roman empire was just before it fell.

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Shockwave November 21, 2005 at 7:03 pm

How long before the “bad guys” get their own?
1 year, 2 years, I bet there will be Chinese or Russian versions in less than 3 years.
Interesting ain’t it?
Have any of you Rambos ever read anything on 4GW?
Machines don’t fight wars, people do and they use their minds. (JB)

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junkdog November 21, 2005 at 7:07 pm

Damn, everyone thinks everybody cares about what they have to say. Shut the hell up. Nobody is listening…

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Kyle Bradshaw November 21, 2005 at 7:15 pm

After reading some of the comments posted here, I have stopped trying to wonder what kind of people voted for Bush. It is obvious. I have never read such heartless, bloodthirsty, mindless posts anywhere — except for the sentiments and strategies expressed in “Mein Kampf.” How do human beings cease to evolve and revert to Neanderthal?

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Willie November 21, 2005 at 7:30 pm

Your trigger happy red necks are to come home some day – have fun.

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realist November 22, 2005 at 6:36 am
Dutch November 22, 2005 at 10:01 am

I long for the day when all warriors on both sides hang up their swords and move forward towards peace. America has done this with England, Nazi Germany, and Japan. We thought those wars would never end. I long for the day that our troops can come home and Iraq can have the “keys” back to their own country and run it for themselves. Most hopefully for the better. Until then, lets give our troops the best tools for the job. If you want to make omeletes, you have to break eggs. Period. Semper Fidelis!

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Eurotrash Redneck November 22, 2005 at 10:02 am

The author of the article wrote:
“I’m undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up.”
You know, I could have sworn that this was already standard procedure?
If not, that would seem to indicate that weapon manufacturers churn out hardware without knowing whether if it’s capabilities violates the laws of war (???), which would certainly seem strange.
Or was the author’s problem simply that it wasn’t legal experts hired by the leftwing loonie establishment who did the assesment?
I suspect option no. 2 is the case…

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MOM-15 November 22, 2005 at 12:07 pm

Many of y’all tend to forget history. It was the Hittites that first defeated Darius (Persian) in what is now Iraq…they did it the same way are…a fleet “march up”…with vicious hand-to-hand fighting in small “squads” of warriors (OooRah!) War is hell. The Marines are the tip of the spear. Give them what they need. As for those who would acommodate/negotiate first, remember France?

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Rick November 22, 2005 at 12:12 pm

For the last two posters-
America has never hang up their sword, no they just sharpened it and treatened anyone who had a differend opinion.
Who cares about legality, certainly not America as they have proven in all conflicts they ever had.
Just keep on making more and more heinous weapons, if you are not using them you can always sell them or give them as aid to your friends and under developed nations.

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brit November 22, 2005 at 12:15 pm

Bush, and the ‘crazy gang’ have been promoting a US domination of the middle east since the early ’90′s.
I would say the majority view in Britain would be that this war is largely about oil. The fact that Our governments have been caught lying to us on numerous occasions, has left many feeling thats there is nothing our respective governments would not do. Pat Robertsons recent statement that someone should execute Venezuelan leader Chavez, paints a picture of America dominated by warmongering religious fanatics intent on bombing anyone who gets in there way. The Bush/cheney/ oil/haliburton connections, for god sake, Bush has been financially bailed out by the Bin laden family on more than one occasion.

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F.LEE MOORE November 22, 2005 at 12:36 pm

FINALLY LET THE PANSY,S AND HANDWRINGERS AND PENTAGON REMF,S . TAKE NOTE . A TIMELY WEAPON EMPLOYED BY OUR BRAVE SKILLED MARINES ASSAULT MEN IS EXACTLY WHAT IS NEEDED.THEMOBARIC ROCKS THE IRAQI WORLD MAJOR F.LEE MOORE III U.S.M.C.-RET

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my-crackpot-theories November 22, 2005 at 12:49 pm

The only purpose of an army is to murder people and destroy property, or to cause others to do what you want through the threat of murder and destruction. In WW2, our fire-bombing of Japanese cities murdered and destroyed much more than the nuclear weapons did. I don’t really understand how some weapons or techniques are OK and others are not. Murder with one thing is moral, murder with another is not? Someone please explain.

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J.H. de Raat November 22, 2005 at 12:53 pm

In WW2, both sides killed civilians – many, many civilians. Strategic bombing by the Allies destroyed cities in Germany & Japan & caused more civilian deaths & injuries than anyone could count. Germany & Japan killed civilians in bombings, but also in other ways, the Germans being the most efficient at it. The Germans in particular were responsible for tens of millions of civilian deaths. In modern warfare civilians get killed; that is the way it is. The more fundamental issue is the question of resorting to war, which the Bush administration seemed to have been eager to do. That, I believe, is the matter that should be addressed. Meanwhile, a lot of people, civilian & military, are being killed & wounded. In my view, invading Iraq without having realistic plans & resources for a secure occupation of the country was a rather stupid mistake.

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Al DiDomizio November 22, 2005 at 3:26 pm

The Iraq war would be over and many more civilians would have been spared if the U.S. had just carpet bombed Iraq. We’ll remeber that next time we have to bail a country out.
To all of you anti-U.S. folks out there, remember we bailed you out in every war that threatened world peace and your way of life. You still have your freedom, and I wouldn’t doubt you have more freedom since then thanks to us Amercians who are willing to sacrifice our lives for ungrateful people like you that are thousands of miles from us.
If you don’t like U.S. policies, then stop dealing with us. We’ll stop contributing to 25% of the U.N. budget and invest that money back into an alternative fuel source that doesn’t pollute. We won’t share it with you either so that you will become the so-called biggest poluters on earth, and we’ll watch your economy go to the toilet. Mark my words, all these things I say will come true because the U.S. is ruled by the people and for the people, and we are sick and tired of you!
One more thing, we don’t want to rule this world, and we sure as hell are not going to let you rule it either.

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Al DiDomizio November 22, 2005 at 3:42 pm

First of all, America and Britain were not the only countries who went to war in Iraq. Atleast half of the countries in the U.N. wanted the war and are participating in the war in some form. Secondly, Hussein did have WMD. He hid them and destroyed some of them before we invaded. He had plenty of time to do this. If he didn’t have them, then why was he so reluctant to have weapons inspectors in Iraq? What would everyone have said if he gassed innocent Iranians again or some other country’s innocent civilians and we had that same intelligence? You people would be lining up to take pop shots at Americans and Britains for failing to act on it. If you don’t believe he had WMD, then you don’t believe in anything. You are foolish.

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Tom November 23, 2005 at 11:31 am

Let’s face it wars are very profitable for some people, our VP comes to mind. Besides it’s happening over there so we can’t see the pain and misery we cause. Like all the wars we had up to date.
Reading this made me think -
“The bomber pilots came, unopposed, safe and cosy in their state-of-the-art aircraft, pressing buttons to drop bombs, to kill, destroy and maim. And then they fly back to their comfortable quarters and celebrate ‘Mission Accomplished’.
“Who are the terrorists? The people, in most cases civilians, who were bombed, or the bombers?

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PubliusJunior November 24, 2005 at 4:36 am

I suggest we create a division, lets call it the Sheehan division. We will send these crack troops in to dangerous areas to use the time-tested tactics of dialogue and appeasement to try to defeat America’s enemies without a shot being fired. If the Neville Chamberlain style attack fails, the hippies can break out the ultimate weapon: Flower Power.
What are all you pinko hippy peaceniks doing reading http://www.defensetech.org? Shouldn’t you be off dining with dictators or snuggling with suicide-bombers? Thugs can only be dealt with in one way: superior firepower combined with the will to use it. No other way has ever worked, and if you ever read a real history book, you would know it.
Unfortunately, I doubt the Pentagon will ever come out swinging in relation to a new weapons system, or indeed anything designed to actually *gasp* kill people or break things. Indeed, every spokesman for the Armed Forces seems to shy away from the idea that we actually kill anybody, and to try to obfuscate the fact that we are wildly succeeding in killing terrorists.
How about we stop saddling our soldiers with rules of engagement so strict that a terrorist must have already detonated his car bomb before he can be fired upon? How about we stop prosecuting our guys for any minor accident, and start pinning medals on them for killing these terrorist thugs?
Trying to evade the truth in these matters makes us look weak-willed and squeamish. Come out and say it. This is a great weapon, that will be used to send as many Islamofascists to their 70 virgins in paradise as quickly as possible. The more brutal and painful, the more they can feel that they earned it. Praise the Lord and pass the SMAW-NE!

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ucant seeme November 24, 2005 at 10:01 am

hurray !!!
i have read all the comments i can from a (bloody) lot of insanely non-realistict-menopsyhic-revolutionaries on this site and never before, have i seen so much hatered and fustration from people resident in “The land of the FREE”.
The important thing u “nuke troting” americans should rememder is what goes around comes around.
Believe it or not the gorvernment of the united states recriuted and trained most of us to do what they now call TERRORISM,then it was simple esspionage and S&D missions.
Am in Africa right now and its a perfectly good place to view the end of the WORLD from…your world that is…huh huh ha ha ha aha ha. fall off strangers.

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Lcpl Schmidt J E November 24, 2005 at 2:34 pm

Well if you ask me, the whole idea of using the SMAW-NE is a great idea, yea you more than likely will cause some serious harm or even kill innocents, but those are just two components/ facts about war, and have always been. Besides, one more thing about war that has always been there, and in the civilian world, that being risking the few for the many, somethin H.R.A’s dont understand, they are under the impression, that everyone deserves to live, no matter the crime, until that kind of situation happens to them, and they lose a loved one, then they say “kill them” they are nothing but hypocrites if you ask me. Where in the military, when we lose one of our own, no mater what service, affects us personally, because we are all one big family, and like with any family, when you mess with one, you mess with the rest, and when you do, stand by for an ass kicking. As I have previously stated, in my personal oponion, the use of the SMAW-NE is a great idea.
Schmidt,Jonathan,E.
LCPL / USMC

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Dennis November 24, 2005 at 10:01 pm

lilspitfire,
Nice post you have there. I had the privlage of a joint training exe. with the BRM @ Camp LeJeune NC back in 1996. Your right, you guys have always been thier, seems like your the only other backup out there worth anything besides Israel. I do see Japan becomeing closer. Whats your take on that? I dont know what you may hear over there but I know that Japan would be a great addition to the family. I have always admired the SAS, very high speed and when it comes to fu#*ups, there realy isnt any, and the BRM’s can hold thier liquore very well LOL. I got to know a marksman pretty good from the BRM while they were training with us. The sniper skills these guys have are very impressive. I know I shoot at the hip with alot of my posts and most of them are just out of fun due to the anger it causes the kids on here but hell, we all want the same thing when it comes down to it. Well have a good one and know that the US Marines hold you guys in high honors along our side, God bless

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David Hambling November 25, 2005 at 7:55 am

“Can we have some of these weapons for the Brits please?”
No. As a matter of policy, the British Army does not and will not deploy thermobaric weapons.
If you want them to change, start lobbying your MP to put pressure on the MoD.

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G. Filippone November 25, 2005 at 1:32 pm

Let’s stop talking about it and get into the hands of the Marines who need it now.

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Dennis November 25, 2005 at 1:46 pm

Patriot,
Awsome post! very well put. I agree with you 100%. Just remeber, when Bush was told about 9/11 he waited for a few minutes before he left so he wouldnt get the children all upset. But as we know the liberal left would say differant. Ya know, it was just like the tax cuts he first put up before congress. The funniest thing was when the Dems found out his plan came from non other than the greatest Dem in the world! Yup JFK. It was entertaining to watch the dems scramble around after they found this out, they even went as far as haveing the murderer himself (Ed-I’ll have another-Kennedy) to shoot down his own family. When the Clintons left office and vandilized AF1 it was a disgrace to the office held. Yeah, getting a BJ in the oval office must be nice, why not teach our 4th gradders the roll of a presidant. By the way dems, your party is the reason why morality is deminishing in the US.God forbid if you are a hetro married couple who want to raise your children with strong morales, insted of reading Pug, in the 2nd grade you get Jim & Tom telling the kids its ok to touch each other. Its a sick demented world as it is. The left just cant be bothered with true diversity. They scream diversity but then they slamm anyone who has a beleif in God and claim that the religous people are a big problem. I am glad that I have a president who is not affraid to stand on his beleif, its called integrity, he has not swayed to the likes of the people and stayed the coarse he set out to do. Clintons on the other hand, well, although I may not agree with every little thing Bush does, am happy to have him as a leader and hope his brother Jeb gets into office to keep the Bush family running things. That statement oughta piss off o few of you high school kids on here. LOL. Have a good day and remember, when the feminest say that the only bush they trust is their own, chances are you may find a few (boots) in there LOL, for those who dont know what that means, wait til your at least in your 20′s then you will know, then again your social studies techer may explain it to you during you reccess at school.

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Jeff November 25, 2005 at 5:22 pm

Anyone ever stop and think this is just a big misunderstanding? They don’t seem to understand that we can kick their asses at will if we really wanted too, and we don’t understand that they’re just to stupid to value human life. I myself believe that it is time to bring those kids home, and don’t think we should still be over there.
Biggest problems are the media and negative PR, and not being able to tell just who is the enemy. With the bad PR and media, it is almost impossible to do what needs to be done.
Most of the troops stationed over there are just doing their duty and want to come home. They value their lives where the enemy does not.
When clearing a building you are supposed to give em a chance to give up, and if they won’t come out… well they weren’t friendly anyways and deserve whats coming to them. I don’t care if its a grenade,RPG, a SMAW-NE or converting the building to a parking lot with an APC or Tank. If it means leaving the engagement on your own two feet and going home alive you did the right thing.
Lets give these kids the tools they need to make it home safe!

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Dennis November 26, 2005 at 4:13 pm

Well said Jeff.

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Harper November 28, 2005 at 1:49 am

As a generalization, I do not believe that “morality” should play any part in the prosecution of war. We, as a species, have allowed ourselves to become desensitized to the horror of war. We believe that there is such a thing as a “clean war”. There isn’t. There will always be casualties, civilian and military. We must remember that war is not a tool, it is a great and horrible beast that is capable of acts of both good and evil, not to let loose lightly. However, when it is released, there must be no muzzle. No limit on weapons, tactics, or geographic boundaries. Total war or No war. In this way we can make war so horrible to contemplate that only the truly insane would dare try to use it as a tool.
-|Harper|-

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Ed Poinsett November 28, 2005 at 10:22 am

While it is smart to try to avoid collateral damage, it must never be the go/no-go decision. The achievement of the military objective must rule.

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Abid Allah November 28, 2005 at 3:50 pm

Bism Alalh Alrahman alraheem
Inshallah the weapon you have discovered will be employed against the very creatuers of it”s like. the life of many muslim freedom fighters rely on istishhad this new modified wepon you speak of is barbaric in nature. its ineffective against the Freddom fighters of Allah. (id say “smoke them out”) which i indeed did yesterdsay. i blinded the kuffar on dirt bikes! they saw nothing of smaw. (loQ) laughing out quietly). therfore however and moreover its imperative to calculate the reprucssions of this new fangled device. Will it protect Marine Corps lifes? good questions are hard to answer this is a fact of life? No you shall see that the American secret service whom quetioned me in Amman, jordan in the eighties had no idea of my importance in the arab muslim world. As of today nobody realy knows what the major deal is. The PAlestinains Specail forces MArine corps of Jerusalem are not afraid of a bombs(weapons) that levels the entire structures ontop of is peacful freedom fighter (fadayeen)occupants. But what if the fadayeen of Allah were the ones who possessed even a more feared weapon then the ones you have in your arsenal(Typical average middle of the road marine corps), would you contemplate using your devices? now that’the real delima, dont you thjink? I have reason to believe that our fadayeen of Allah have developed a weapon capable of obliterating entrie battalions and divisions in a split second and leaving no know traces for anyone to see! strange as it may seem the New deployabl;e versatile Nimir althanee is in existence for some time now developed by the famous abid alkalam shiek bin abid aljabar.
I know for certain that i will see the day that the idgenous Palestinian people of Palestine is returned to the Plaestinian peopel soon. with or without U.S. MArines help.

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louis November 28, 2005 at 6:26 pm

Asking ourselves if a weapon is not fit for use because of its destructive capability is silly. The very concept of placing a moral compass on a weapon is unfair for the soldiers that are employing them. if the enemy has these weapons they would use them with great public fanfare. As for the human rights activist, well they are not qualified to pass moral judgments on the war or the weapons that are employed, they are not the ones that are getting shot at, ambushed and attacked. The weapon that is the most effective for our soldiers should always be available and deployed with our moral blessing, after all, it would be immoral to deploy our men and women into action without the weapons that will protect them.

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The Freak November 29, 2005 at 3:15 am

Once again I find myself reading these posts and all I hear is people bashing on the military. If you have not been in are in or ever going to join. Then Shut up cause you have no room to talk I dont car how smart you think you are how much school mommy and daddy paid for.. The fact remains you are not over there you are here safe and sound in your little beds at night.
While men and wemen are being killed and sleeping in the cold on the ground in sand not knowing if the next day will be their last. And how do you treat them like shit. If any one on this page is uncivilized it you for not carring enough about the people who protect this country “that means you too ” then. Then you are even more uncivilized then yyou think.. Ohh And by the way I was over there 2 times so I do have room to talk. I was and infintry man so yes any thing we Can get will help us even more than you know.
U.S.M.C Freak 2/2

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JEROME EDGE November 29, 2005 at 6:46 am

In light of the type of urban warfare the Marines are subject to in Iraq,This type of weapon is necessary to limit the unecessary U.S. casualties such conflicts can produce.
It only stands to reason that most of the “good” Iraqi people are aware of who the insurgents are…So it’s in thier best interests to either turn them in or distance themselves from thier strongholds when this type of weapon is unleashed.
SEMPER FI

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Dennis November 29, 2005 at 12:40 pm

Hey guys,
I think one thing we forget about and even I was blind to the fact when I was their, is that they still use old school weapons. Alot of the Islamic nutcases cant afford the new technology and still use stuff from the cold war erra, the APM’s are a bitch and you cant blame EOD for not doing their job. These guys clear out a raod and then low and behold someone places these devices after the fact. My uncle said in Viet Nam, they would carpet bomb to form new roads to help ensure that their was no devices like this for the troops.( If anyone could elaborate on that) please do. Our upgrade in firepower will always rain suppreme, but lets not forget that our Russian friends have had weapons like this prior to us. The good thing about Russia is that they do not allow the pesty press around when they do a mission. Did you ever wonder why our troops are under the gun so much? I am ok with the media covering events such as the war, but I do not think the media should have a place in the front lines or be able to expose tactics that our men & wemon use in combat. The CIA and NSA can use pictures from tapes to pinpoint a location, what makes us think that these terrorist cant do the same? We as the United States have to realize that we are fighting a people who have always know war, they are experts in this area. I am not saying anything negative about the US, please understand this. I would kinda compair it to this, say the US went to war against the Korean Rock Marines, I hate to admit it, but we would be taken out very quickley going against these people in that kind of tarain. Our spec ops are the breath of our operations right now, thier intel helps us plan our (what to do) sometimes our troops overlook the simplistics of combat and as to what the enemy uses against us. Does anyone recall the neutron bomb? this would have been awsome to use when we first went into Afganistan. But, do to our media and tree huggers it became a (noway). This post is not bias to weather the war is good or not, rather I am asking the reader to look at some of the points to see if you may agree about what is being said.

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Ryan Hebert November 29, 2005 at 2:23 pm

I agree with jeff and the patriot, War is hell, it always has been. However you cannot judge morality in war. I submit to you readers an example.
There is a town, a town with wealth, propsperity, and strong law enforcement. One day the police just leave. Before long crime is ramppent, people fight amongst one another, chaos. Soon mafia groups start fighting each other for dominence. After awhile, one group takes the took and creates it’s own law in forcement. One that takes bribes and makes people pay for ‘protection’. Eventually, the town becomes a threat to other towns.
Moral of this story: Civilation cannot exist without law whether it be just or unjust. The reason we should support the war. Who are we, Americans to deny anyone their freedom. It’s our trademark.
Please think long and hard on this comment.

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tom November 30, 2005 at 8:07 am

as a Royal Marine RSM myself i feel that i must point out to you your mistaken belief of the U.S armed forces being the superior. I have myself worked with on many occasions U.S marines on both operations as well as in training excercise, and must say that although their hearts seemed to be in the job, they quite simply lacked all but the basic forms of military training. how long is U.S marine training? 10 weeks if that. how long does a basic entry recruit take to earn the flash of Royal Marine Commando? 36 weeks. the longest infantry training in the world. The US can talk all it wants on how it has saved our little island country all it likes, and i am of course grateful for your contributions, but lets bare in mind that what we do and have done for you is more than enough repayment. the amount of US troops that have broken under fire and needed OUR help in rescueing your colonial backsides still amazes me. and lets not forget that without our forces in Iraq who would your troops have to shoot at? friendly fire indeed. well good luck to you on winning this war, i cant see us staying around for too long after losing oh 100 troops since the end of the war. how many have you lost? 2000? again the inferior training. and again the stubborn refusal to realise that nobody wants you in that country. i hope that in your next war you intend to be prepared for it.

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Rome November 30, 2005 at 10:36 am

Well, first of all “tom”…the difference between the time spent in U.S. Marine training and your “royal commando” training is we are smarter and know how to get the job done without taking breaks for tea and crumpets.
And yes, you still owe us for saving your little island countrys’ skin during the “Big One”,So if you think it’s all up to your country to put a end to any war or conflict…WW III is looming over the horizon…so,pick your side…now.

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ATOR November 30, 2005 at 1:05 pm

Lovely weapon !great weapon ? ,we(the British ,the Iraquis ,the Americans.etc…),we die, they get rich ,the arms deales who promote this site ,Wake up you fools ,its about proffit for SPECIAL INTRESTS ,their intrests are proffit ours is stayin alive,,,WAKE UP AND DISOBEY,put your guns down,all go home its a bad idea theres nothing great about it,its stupid ,Why isnt Bush out there ,Tony Blair ,firstly they are cowards ,secondly ,they are operateing on behalf of SPECIAL INTRESTS The more rounds you fire ,the more bombs you drop,the richer those SPECIAL INTRESTS get,and those with no SPECIAL INTRESTS just die like fodder..WAKE UP BE TRULY BRAVE,SEE THROUGH THE SCAM…………..ATOR

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Joe November 30, 2005 at 8:05 pm

As for the British losing 100 vs. our 2000 it’s simple… UK forces are deployed in Basra, shi’ite territory that is generally peaceful compared to where most of the US forces are (central Iraq, dominated by Sunnis). Also, you contribute what, 8,000 men? Try 140,000 from the USA… If you compare precentages 1.4% killed for USA, vs. 1.2% killed for UK, the rates are quite comparable.

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Bill Daniel November 30, 2005 at 10:11 pm

OH, MY ACHING BUTT!!!!!
Has everyone forgotten the simple reason for the start of this post?!
Do we belong in Iraq? Who the hell knows? Who really cares?!
Should we STAY in Iraq? Not one MICROSECOND longer than we need to!!
Is democracy worth fighting for? Every last male member of my ancestors believed so, and served, even when there was nobody to be fighting.
SHOULD we make nice and let everyone in the world know what we have in our war chest? Hell. NO!!
(All of you morons that believe otherwise need to be spanked and deported to someplace that you can’t do any harm. France, maybe? They never have paid any of their war debt to us and hate us,too. Go figure)
I saw combat in the Navy in Vietnam. You can bet your bottom dollar that NO Iraqi (incidentally-they prefer to be called Persians) wants the US out of there. Yes, we have taken casualties, but don’t DARE compare this to Vietnam! What we are seeing here is a NEW COUNTRY being born! Anyone who thinks that it will be short or easy is deluding themselves. We need to ‘stay the course’. And every democrocracy based country should be over there, helping a new democracy to be born. If we pull out now, we might as well re-arm every mothers son that wants it and let the country sink into anarchy. And “USA” will be a curse word worse than shah,ayatollah,dictator or even Hussein.Because so far, WE and our allies are the only hope these people have of having a future and a decent country. If the current system is corrupt, then we need to help the people get it right until it IS right.I’m sorry as hell about my comrades that have fallen in a just cause. I nearly bought the farm myself a couple of times and am glad to have the p-hearts. But before you go blaming President Bush for what’s happening now….cast your memory back to Mr. Clinton’s actions over there while HE was in office! So, you’re entitled to whatever opinion you have; just please TRY to be educated about it!
Come to think about it…..let’s let ALL the anti-war, peacemongers and whoever else wants to; let THEM go over there and say “Pretty please, Mr. I hate anyone-non-muslim, give PEACE A CHANCE.”
Go ahead, Cindy, I dare you.
W. Daniel
‘The Lieutenant’
PS….Frankly, I WANT the ‘bad guys’ to soil their britches when they know that WE care to send ‘the very best’

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TAROT December 1, 2005 at 9:54 am

I know lets all bitch about whos got the best marines,how about we get real and realise all of us troops are puting our lives on the line,Its ordinary Americans ,British, and dare I say iraquis ,who are dying ,the more we scrabble amongst each other,the more the Big mouthed puppets in politics get away with murder, our murder ,follow orders ,dont ask why ,pull the trigger be ready to die, For What ? For Who ? ,killing a human with your weapon will put scar on your soul for all time ,war or no war ,its murder and theyre feeding on it like reptiles theres nothing great when your best mate has a ak47 round through the kneck and you look at your arm and your so surprised that its not there anymore !, For What ? FOR WHO ? ,Proffit ,for the bush family, for the Bin Ladens , for the Blairs , THEY GET RICH ,WE DIE ,thats not freedom ,thats a system of horror and evil perpertrated to keep those idiots rich ,and we follow their bent words, WAR ON TERROR ,AL QUEDA ,BLAH BLAH BLAH …there is no AL QUEDA they’ve invented it ,another dark enemy for us to kill at all cost….theres no need for any of this ,I ATOR AWAKE MENS SOULS TO SEE THROUGH THIS VILE DECEPTION,NO MORE WAR WE HAVE SUFFERED ENOUGH.
We are being decieved lied to and shafted by these HORRIBLE FILTHY RICH BEASTS ,we are FODDER to them ,be they red or blue ,left or right ,they have their secret meetings to decide wich of us is next to die ,FOR THEIR SPECIAL INTRESTS …ITS SIMPLE >>>>>WAKE UP,…………ATOR

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Agitant Chef , Serge Du Pont December 1, 2005 at 10:06 am

Firstly The Best are the French foreign legion,We have 89 differnt Nationalities in our Legion,Our Assualt course in France takes our MEN three hours thirty minutes to complete ,recently a marine contingent came down to train ,Why did it take them ten hours ,and why could they not speak our language ,when every Legionaire can speak at leats 3 ..they wre too busy trying to ram beer cans up each others asses ,…….. PRICLEESS ……..

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Voltron December 1, 2005 at 2:30 pm

For sale:
One French issued Military Rifle.
Never fired
Only dropped once
please ask for Sir Ender Mon Key

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beenthere December 2, 2005 at 1:25 pm

And, gawdam, I just can’t pass up responding to Voltron who gets his nick from his fondness for sticking his finger into empty light sockets. A history course might do you some good as well. This fair America, this beacon of liberty to the world, would not be the United States of America were it not for the French. Had they not come here and helped out, you would be a Brit. LaFayette’s help is downplayed by our current propagandists but we couldntna dun it widout ‘em, ol’ buddy. So have a little more respect for folks that you owe your ‘free’ ass to. merci. And just for you knee jerkers who are for sending our kids to kill and be killed, brutalize and be brutalized, in the name of political corruption, and have never bothered to enlist yourselves, I got 4 looonnng years in the crotch (including 23 days in the CherryPoint brig, my fondest memory). Your turn.

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KillEmAll December 6, 2005 at 2:18 pm

This new weapon is just another toy for the death slinging fools in Washington. War is Money, we spend more on defense and war and death machines than the entire world put together. We should turn killing into theme parks. Seems to be what we do best, kill kill kill. If only we could kill more…

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Will December 7, 2005 at 8:55 pm

War is Hell, Patton said make the B. die for his country….. , as a Marine combet Viet- vet. the French can’t fight thier way out of a paper bag ,, no wonder the French lost all it’s fights , they sit in a fort, and get there ASS BEAT , that’s history. I Trained with the Legion , THEY are bunch of Drunks , and Missfits that EURO, does not want. As for Viet Nam the CFR – (one-Worlders) that control the World , gave away vietnam. WAKE UP GUYS ,, WE HAVE BEEN TAKEN OVER A LONG TIME AGO. They are not going to tell us. I say Learn To speak China , as that is the Military that will be called in to control the next problem , better yet the amerika sheeple will demand it . Think I’am wrong , the people in New Orleans proved it , The government must save me . THATS your god , who you call in trouble is your god… as for our current Military It’s too small to save amerika in a Real fight.. and we have some good men in our military , but fact is its too small, and high Tect. is not going to save us, our high schools no longer teach rifle. Protect our 2nd adment. rights. if we still have any men left?????????????????????????????????????/

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Dave December 9, 2005 at 1:13 pm

I’m just wondering how soon we the American people are going to be seeing these weapons being used upon US, by “our” government, in their ongoing war against “political incorrectness”. As in “Take that, you **** Christians, for being so **** intolerant!” The leadership of both major parties is committed to this diabolical madness. The world is a vast lunatic asylum being run by its worst inmates. God help us all.

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Johny the Homicidal Maniac December 18, 2005 at 8:57 pm

…Maybe it’s just that I’ve had a bad day and some of the comments I’ve seen on this “blog,” posing for intelligent conversation, but I’ve reached the decision that I fully endorse the use of this man-portable FAE on fundamentalist DUMNS**TS such as some of the morons posting, here.
That is all-
…Mere mortals.

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Owen Powell December 29, 2005 at 3:10 pm

Awesome!! Can you post an NSN and line number so we can order a bunch for our upcoming deployment? Thanks!

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Will Smith January 5, 2006 at 5:35 am

this weapon is awesome. i want one.
i think the employment of the weapon in falluja is appropriate, strategic, effective. seriously, i want one.

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RL Gumm January 7, 2006 at 6:08 pm

Can’t wait ’till everybody has one of these to hunt squirrels with.

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Chris G. January 9, 2006 at 12:30 pm

War is inhumane. What else is it. Are you going to ban war because it’s inhumane. Would be nice, but the world doens’t work that way. I call the use of these rockets, very humane. They save the lives of my fellow Marines. A real weapon of philanthropy, in my opinion. lol

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Al Rovati February 4, 2006 at 4:27 am

JUST SEARCH IN YAHOO: BUSH MIND CONTROL SCANDAL.
BEST, Al

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pvtpile February 16, 2006 at 4:37 pm

Great new tool!

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Mark B. June 9, 2006 at 3:55 pm

I get so tickled and sick all at the same time, watching us ham-string ourselves when it comes to fighting war… enemies that will kill us – both civilians and military personel, wholesale and by any means possible. It is nearly impossible to win a war, fighting with one hand tied behind your back and the other one with a mitten on. I wish both Marines and Army troops had this new thermobaric LAWS and hopefully a thermobaric round for the M203 and similar 40mm grenade launchers will be out soon, if not already. Kill the enemy and destroy his/her will to fight is the only way to victory, and weapons like the thermobaric weapons, with both the psychological and physical effects are the kinds of weapons needed to achieve this.
JMHO!

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James AF Compton July 11, 2006 at 2:49 pm

Weapons of war cannot be seperated from the process of war, which is a political act carried out by violent means. And the level and technique of force must be tempered against the desired political outcome.
In other words, if you’re chasing Osama into a cave, feel free to blow up the whole mountain.
If you’re going through a town, be discreet in who and what you blow away. Then you must discipline anybody who deliberately goes out of his or her way to kill anything that moves.
Again – back to Clauswitz. War is conducted to achieve a series political and economic goals. Never forget that no matter how many people you kill, they will STILL never come love and admire you for it. Or fully cooperate with you.

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skwg July 11, 2006 at 4:44 pm

Either fight the damned war or don’t. Whether we blow up countless civilians or not, they’re going to hate us. Screw ‘em. Our guys are sent there to do a job & tying their hands & wringing our own hands about how they’re doing their job & whether they’re killing people or hurting their feelings isn’t going to help them do their job & win this stupid war & come home. Human rights advocates should not figure into a war. It’s kill or be killed.

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Pauli July 12, 2006 at 8:14 pm

We invade someone else’s country, then get mad because they kill some of us! Amazing! Americans are arrogant, ignorant butchers of the world. Hopefully, someday the same things we have been inflicting on third world people will be inflicted on our people, in the spirit of what goes around, comes around. Imagine a little napalm used on american cities and towns, the way we used it in viet nam, or a 500 pound precision bomb dropped on the ny stock exchange the way we drop them all over villages in Iraq and Afghanistan, or one of the above “novel exposives” used at a football stadium, rather than a building in Iraq. I guess that would be unfair, as only we and the Is-piss jews get to use those weapons.

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kjs July 19, 2006 at 5:32 pm

Let’s hope the IDF/IAF uses tons of these in Lebanon.

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fronten August 1, 2006 at 6:45 pm

whoever spoke there in big caps.
i didtn read it.
you know the rules and you broke it.
i am sorry, maybe you had something interesting to say, but you broke it.

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Maverick August 12, 2006 at 5:14 pm

That’s a pretty amazing piece of hardware. Excellent for MOUT Operations. I suppose the US Army will equip it

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Jim September 4, 2006 at 10:09 pm

Hey KJS:
You brave Israelis’ and your lickspittle Kwan jannissaries are going to be in for a lot more than thermobaric weapons. Lets see how you like it.

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tjmosa October 15, 2006 at 10:39 pm

It never ceases to amaze me how these post stay sofar from the central question to include everything from: weather or not we should be in Iraq to armageddon to who has the longest basic training? I am suprised no1 has yet worked in a good Bar-B-Q rib recipe. Considering the weapon in question.
The question was: What do u think of the new Urban weapon? I 4 one, love it. Why? Because, once the boots hit the ground, the people wearing them deserve our full support. This includes any innovation that will help them to continue to wear these boots after they have come into contact with those who wish to kill them.

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SGT USMC October 26, 2006 at 11:44 pm

One should not truly discuss war and the right or wrong of it if he or she doesn’t possess the balls to involve one’s self in it and gain first hand experience. And as far as what military is better, “If you bleed with me you are my brother” thats all that matters.

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IsThere December 13, 2006 at 7:52 pm

Yeah, maybe it’s time you all realize the truth. Pacifying a people who have been fighting amongst themselves for THOUSANDS of years is not possible. They will fight because they always have and they don’t know what else to do. We are fighting people who would love to come to America and kill our citizens. Funny how we are seen as the problem when the majority of the attacks as of late are against IRAQI CIVILIANS and IRAQI GOVERNMENT WORKERS! When we use this weapon, it is an obvious obstacle to the rapid destruction of this terrible and ridiculous band of thugs. As for “beenthere,” being in the brig for 23 days doesn’t enhance your credibility, it just shows what type of Marine you were. I’ve met many like you, you all deserve the brig. We do what we are told to do. We are told to end the insurgency in Iraq. We will do that to the best of our ability. When you try to end an ideology, it lends to ending the live of ideological fanatics. People who do not respect who they fight or know what they truly are doing. What are the insurgents in Iraq doing? We haven’t lost enough men in the WHOLE WAR as a bad WEEK in Vietnam! They are merely causes enough strife to keep the news going. In my opinion, change over the power to the Iraqis, let them kill each other, as they have been, and defend against attacks where we need to. Help get Africa out of it’s backwardness. But we need to leave Iraq with an idea that we did what we could, that we deposed the dictator and that there was little we coudl do to stop the fanaticism. Simple.

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Pete January 14, 2007 at 7:23 am

Hey, Sgt USMC, are you saying that you have to be willing to kill, or at least help others kill, in order to have an opinion on the morality of killing? Man, what kind of jarhead hooyah crap has the core been feeding you?
This is a seriously cool weapon, both for its’ power and for the simplicity of the concept. War would be a serious BLAST(pun intended) if nobody got hurt.

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mike January 15, 2007 at 4:46 pm

as far as the weapon goes great for the corp…we sit here and talk about the morality of using it..ask the guy who lost his legs to the nail filled IED. anybody that has gone to war knows its brutal,bloody and messy we should use whatever resources we have to bring our brothers and sisters home in one piece.

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buba January 24, 2007 at 5:37 pm

this kind of warhead has its use but civilian casualities MUST be avoided, a shockwave weapon only with limited range and power (programable warhead) could be better.
And if USA wants to win, stop using drugs with the troops like in afganistan and be less happy trigger, your cowboy aproach dont work.

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Sidney Williams MD January 27, 2007 at 9:36 pm

Great weapon to lessen deaths to our troops. Any pill box or house containing combatants is fair game. As to the question of why we are there half way around the world: We are there because if we were not there, they would be here sooner. It is better to make the poor terrorist bastards die for Mohammad and collect their 70 preteen virgins whom they can abuse for eternity, than let the little goat molesters fulfill their fantasy of killing us.

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Neg February 11, 2007 at 5:09 pm

Great weapon and concept!
To all the bleeding heart liberals out there, you fight them there or fight them here! Which one do you want?? Get the Politicians and Media out of there and let the Military do what they do best. KILL!
Things should be censored like they were in WW II. Only let the public know what is necessary. Now, it seems like the Politicians and Media are trying to undermine the good old US of A! What ever happened to the “let’s pull together and get the job done” attitude!

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Jeremy February 15, 2007 at 2:13 am

Once a war has begun, the only sensible debate is how to win it effectively and with the least bloodshed. This particular BDM is effective; and while one may bemoan collateral losses any pragmatist knows that a war zone is a war zone. Plenty of things detonating out there. I don’t quite understand the fervor over this or that particular type of explosion – seems simple. Blow up bad guys. Mk 19 40mm gl pretty destructive too – want to ban that? Stupid.

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Tony E. February 27, 2007 at 11:58 am

I was reading through this and Christopher Karel brought up a good point about weapons and there morality being debated before deployment but what about the Air Force’s new thermobaric bomb. After all that is what the SMAW-NE is based off of. so what do you guys think about the use of a 2000 lb. thermobaric bomb in Afghanistan. This is some thing I feel should also be discussed.

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S July 5, 2007 at 5:56 am

Here’s a picture of this type of weapon being used in Lebanon in 2006.
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,677918,00.jpg

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Dark Lord July 19, 2007 at 4:38 pm

OMG im guessing mainly pro war, im half and half. the poeple who go out saying kill them all well, one day i pray to god it will happen to you and your family and then see you say what you say! people fight with sticks and stones and the usa retaliates with wmd and nerve agents, then robs the country dry and says we are helping? omg are most americans retarded or is it lack of education? why do americans find it good and fun to go to war, bing all hyped up.
well as every mighty country it has its high and then comes the low! america is at its high and is makeing a very very steep low! its a shame realy that the government has let you down and you fail to do anything about it!

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in your face July 19, 2007 at 5:16 pm

OMG im guessing mainly pro war, im half and half. the poeple who go out saying kill them all well, one day i pray to god it will happen to you and your family and then see you say what you say! people fight with sticks and stones and the usa retaliates with wmd and nerve agents, then robs the country dry and says we are helping? omg are most americans retarded or is it lack of education? why do americans find it good and fun to go to war, bing all hyped up.
well as every mighty country it has its high and then comes the low! america is at its high and is makeing a very very steep low! its a shame realy that the government has let you down and you fail to do anything about it!
i feel sorry for all the people who have no heart to think of thoes in suffering! if it was up to be id be superman and smash thy bush face, then thy used my super stregth against you and see how you would feel! bet youd say its not fair! well same way goes! america is a bully henc why so many hate

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Iraq War Vet August 23, 2007 at 11:33 am

That should help with the housing market!

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Dr.J. Gobbler August 24, 2007 at 12:02 pm

USA is almost over as all bully empires always finish. Your leaders lie you into war over and over for financial gain and power.ie Vietnam, Iraq, killing millions. When the violence comes home you are outraged. Dozy! You have over 700 military bases around the world. Do you really believe you need them to protect your “country?” Americans are from Puritan stock, crying in the night at the great forests, afraid of every shadow. It really shows in your history. ie Peoples History of the United States by Howard Zinn

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Terces August 24, 2007 at 2:01 pm

To all those living outside the USA:
You are correct; America is declining and declining fast and will fall just as Rome fell. Please forgive my fellow Americans for the unthoughtful, rude, and arrogant comments they make for they don’t know what they’re saying. They’re blinded by pride and bloodshed and I’m ashamed they say such things. America is the Constitution and that’s it… there are many of us in America trying hard to preserve that. Washington told us not to get into tangling alliances and to trade with everyone… not to go to war, without even declaring war, as we please.

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Troy August 25, 2007 at 11:15 pm

War is HELL! I am a vet so don’t sit there and say I don’t know what I am talking about. I have seen this weapon in action and know its power. Let me ask this…if the enemy had this do you think they would worry about civilian casualties? No. They would use it to make those casualties. If you are fired upon and have this weapon in your arsenol you bet your sweet ass you will use it.

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Tomme September 10, 2007 at 9:38 am

Hey, i have some draws i may want a weapon tec to look at, its maby by interest, i want someone to look at my drawings, an maby realise them!!! I have the pictures on my PC, yust ask so shall i send them.

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Bruce September 11, 2007 at 1:57 am

Thermobaric weapons are an advance in war technology but they are troubling because of their propensity to kill and maim civilians – like chemical weapons or cluster bombs. If we use weapons that kill civilians indiscriminately aren’t we behaving like terrorists? I hope the USMC can develop guidelines for this weapon to keep civilian deaths to an absolute minimum.

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Mike September 13, 2007 at 12:00 pm

Scout, some information from your “brothers in arms” http://www.ivaw.org/faq

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J September 20, 2007 at 10:12 pm

When did America decide killing civilians was a problem.. was it after we wiped out entire races in North America, cooked 25,000 people alive in their homes in Dresden, or nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? At least we won those wars.

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abdullah September 21, 2007 at 2:29 pm

Americans are a dieing breed and the CIA regulated cocaine during the cocaine era and sold it to the American people, u americans prefer drugs being sold to your kids to keep your mutual funds going. I ain’t saying i hate americans but u guys elect corrupt presidents. One congresswomen was against the war on Iraq and warned of the consequences but no one listened to her. Those of your presidents that weren’t part of the skull and bones secret society were killed. Including JFK who was a good president that actually workd for the American people.

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brian November 22, 2007 at 11:25 pm

u all suckers!!!!!! pinoy

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walter November 29, 2007 at 2:44 pm

all yall who are aganst americans can kiss my ass. go americans

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Squaddie December 3, 2007 at 7:38 am

As an OR6 British soldier that has experience fighting in both Afghanistan and Iraq alongside Americans, I feel that I am qualified to voice my opinion.
Firstly the development and use of better weapons systems can and does save lives. As long as those weapons systems are used in a conscientious manner by soldiers on the battlefield (which most do).
People are people no matter what race, creed or religion they are. Both the UK and US are now multicultural societies and we have to live with that whether we like it or not. There are bad people in the world and good and you can’t usually tell just by looking at them (sometimes you can).
If Thermobaric weapons mean that the airstrike that’ll flatten a few houses, potentially killing innocents doesn’t have to happen, then use them.
If you wish to kill American or UK civilians and soldiers, or torture foreign innocents to get your way – Stand by MF, we’re coming for you!

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john December 3, 2007 at 2:20 pm

i was in war once killed all you bastards haha

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john December 4, 2007 at 2:10 pm

hey walter john comment back

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john December 17, 2007 at 2:02 pm

hey walter this test sucks man

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Marc February 10, 2008 at 2:31 pm

im sorry but its shoulder fired multipurpose assault weapon. in the marine version there is 4 different kinds of rockets. i have read where ppl have said it is inhumane because civilians cant hide from the blast. its not like it is just being fired indisciminately assaultman are well trained it is our primary weapon we would never fire a rocket into a building that might have civilians in it the chance of giving away a position or not having effect on target is to great we dont carry enough to just send them down range. thank you

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ami February 17, 2008 at 8:16 am

itititfc5ftyr6reyvftr6uy5tgfyrtrgfhthfghuy7yjihjhfffx5yecgbvcbvfu

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phil March 27, 2008 at 11:23 am

i like cheese and pie is very good bye now

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????? April 22, 2008 at 2:02 am

SMAW-NE doesn’t seem “brutal” or “barbaric.” Dead by extreme SMAW-NE over-pressure is the same as dead by artillery barrage, is the same as dead by cruise missile, is the same as…etc. SMAW is more target-specific than other options which minimizes collateral damage/casualties?

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A.Smith April 25, 2008 at 8:06 pm

Dennis Kucinich+ Gimli+9/11=Conspiracy?

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Overseas Removal May 6, 2008 at 5:36 am

I am uncertain whether this means the left should turn ts back on the poor, or whether it should turn its back on egalitarianism. Either way, it’ not going to happen.
I am certain it didn’t mean either one. The point very clearly was about the conflation of the ideals, not the abandonment of either one. Strawmen very rarely bring evidence and rationality to any debate, but I applaud your skill with the matches …
And on a different note, I think am nearly certain that Tyler’s irony wasn’t comletely lost on almost all of the readers of this post….

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mini storage May 14, 2008 at 4:53 am

In any case, I’m glad to see they took it down finally.

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Sean May 23, 2008 at 5:41 pm

Quite the intellectual bunch. There is a saying that best describes this whole argument about warfare. War is hell.
Why would we want it otherwise? War should be a horrible bloody affair that drenches our memories in mountains of gore.
It should be the most horrendous nightmare packed full of pestilence and disease.
Bombs should be huge and kill the innocent as well as the combatants in a non discriminatory manner.
And when it hurts enough and costs enough then perhaps we will be less willing to wage it.

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tootall May 28, 2008 at 4:43 am

Why does it matter if the Geneva rules are followed? our enemies don’t, so why should we. They don’t care how many civilians they kill, why should we. So far as I’m concerned ALL Iraqis can die a horrible death, it won’t hurt my feelings one little bit. If it was up to me, the first foot soldier would never have touched ground over there, the entire middle east would have been one big hunk of fused glass on 9\12, had it been up to me. None of those bleeps are worth a damn, neither is that entire area. Nuke em and be done with it, and nuke anybody that doesn’t like it.

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Portable Media Player June 15, 2008 at 9:09 pm

There’s a thermobaric warhead (either Russian or Bulgarian) for the RPG7 that is apparently equivalent to a 122mm artillery round.
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Portable Media Player June 15, 2008 at 9:10 pm

would be far less likely to cause massive damage than, say, an artillery barrage, or an airstrike. Nothing controversial about the other two, so there shouldn’t be anything controversial about this.

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Warhead August 17, 2008 at 4:13 am

you all need to wake the hell up, its a damn weapon! so is an M16 a .45 pistol, an m67 gernade. they all do the same thing, kill! they all have the capability to take life, hostile or not. yes some are more effective than others but these are things that you cannot possibly understand unless you are there, unless you are in the military, this life is entirley different than what you are used to. we signed a contract saying we will take up this life and make sure that you dont have to. so we can only expect you not to understand. no one is trying to kill innocent people that is never an objective in any mission, its just war and no one can eliminate the accidents or terrible things that happen in such an environment, every war has been the same way. war is hell and its the devil dog’s territory let them handle it before our enemies come over here again.

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Cortez March 10, 2009 at 1:04 pm

if you Think 911 is wake you are retarded also this war we are in is a good thing a some ways

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George Bradstein March 29, 2009 at 8:19 pm

History has shown the side with the more advanced technology wins conflicts? No… how bout Vietnam? How bout the Russian-Aghani conflict in the eighties? How about the war of independence? Insurgents will outlast occupiers. Although I hope it is different for us in Iraq and Afghanistan…

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Bill April 9, 2009 at 9:35 pm

I say that they can use it as long it doesn’t affect us in the long or short run. It may be useful at war but sheesh, if that thing misfires and hits a nursery or something then…

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Joe Rocker June 24, 2009 at 3:03 pm

Wrong weapon for Falluja. Just flatten the place with B-52s. Why should one American die for a bunch of mud huts.

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Bobby June 29, 2009 at 8:33 pm

America has become so good at using propaganda that even it’s own people believe that it’s a free country. America this, America that.Trying to be world police…to keep it’s fingers in all the pies more like.Oil,strategic bases,money,converting states to allies through whatever means.They have been using Nazi techniques for years.Propaganda techniques and technology and who knows what else. Take 9/11 for example..inside job? Don’t rule it out huh.I do agree that fighting for your country may be valiant and brave..but before you sign your life away,when the american people’s lives have been in no danger from foreigners in the first place,you should maybe consider either what your fighting for or who’s side (if any) ahould you be on.

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nick maiocco September 16, 2009 at 1:23 pm

george b, i dont know about the Russian-Aghani conflict, but vietnam was a military victory, a political failure for sure, but our tactics were sound.. also, in war of independence…we used better tactics. guerilla tactics to be precise, as opposed to lining up and duking it out against superior numbers. hit and run tactics, the first sharpshooters, we even targeted their leaders. all of these were new and better strategems. where are you getting your info?

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Cabrone October 22, 2009 at 2:08 pm

neutron bomb them. Why spend any more money on developing nice weapons, war is not nice. Lets use what we already have and finish em off. set off the nuetron bomb and you can occupy territory in 4 days. Stop trying to spare so called innocent people. the women bare children that will grow up to be just like who we are fighting now. Remember they started this. The muslims are spreading like a plague throughout the free world and trying to impose their horrible beliefs on unsuspecting nice freedom loving folks. Lets stop screwing around and defeat this enemy.

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SkysoldierRecon November 6, 2009 at 2:21 pm

I really would like to see the M-3 CG given to line units, since only the ones we have are used by SOCOM. 1 and done ain't good enough, 6 rnds a minute works 4 me..buy more. Wat a great weapon, we should have a helluva lot more. Those guys NEED them. 1 and done sux…

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Joel (LT, ret.) November 16, 2009 at 6:12 pm

The Arabs routinely use civilian shields, civilian homes, and also use U.N. facilities as shields and bases from which to fire from and hide behind. These tactics were very frequent in the Lebanon War, and the destruction of a U.N. post happened because the Arab fighters set up observation and mortars around it. Any time a fighting organization fights from civilian "cover" or "concealment" casualties can be expected. But they shouldn't be blamed on the nuances of how one high-explosive works as opposed to another, or is more powerful. The civilian casualties should be blamed on the fighters who choose to endanger civilians … or for that matter, use them as suicide terrorists.

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bigdaddydan November 16, 2009 at 7:45 pm

just let them loose. i say make a bigger one and blow the whole damn country up. that way our soldiers can come home.

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R. Miller November 16, 2009 at 8:16 pm

the geneva conventions and similar rules of conduct are a good idea, only if both sides abide by them! i have 2 nephews in the u.s.m.c., and i've given them one piece of advice. "it's better to be judged by 12, than to be carried by 6." i'm on my last nerve with the bleeding hearts that think it's unfair that we have superior weaponry. if the al-qaida (hope i spelled that right) had thought about our firepower before they started up with us, they wouldn't have to be dealing with it now. we're not killing innocent people over in iraq, and afghanistan! the cowards hiding behind them are the ones responsible for the civilian deaths in my opinion. they can behead construction workers and school girls for their cause, but when we level a building they were hiding in and a non-combatant gets caught up in the mess, they call us cowards… OOH RAH!!!

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SkysoldierRecon November 17, 2009 at 5:12 pm

It would be nice if line units got to use the G-3 Carl Gustav..6 rnds a minute..with a thermobaric charge? Why does SOCOM have a monopoly on the CG's? Damn that is way better than 1 and done..the only good muj is a DEAD 1..fuck 'em…

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nikolayaleksi November 20, 2009 at 7:38 am

do you speak türkish any bady is here

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Brandon November 20, 2009 at 5:07 pm

OMFG where can I buy some of those.

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WarScientist November 23, 2009 at 11:17 am

The thing to take away from all this:

If you are a civilian in a war-zone, and theres a bunch of bad guys in your living room shooting out the window, get the fcuk out of the house!!

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Rugerblake November 24, 2009 at 9:17 pm

"Whenever the legal/ethical status of a given weapon system might be questioned, surely some public debate is needed."
Please stop! Whenever you include legal and ethical in killing you wonder why our soldiers are handicapped. It's wrong and unhelpful. You know if you use this stuff effectively – meaning no holes barred then your enemies tend to not fight you in the long run and it is when you chose limitations on your own – you negate your advantages. There is no ethical or moral superior way to kill. Period.
So what I am saying is that we need to lower our per enemy killed cost. If you add up the cost of per bomb, bullet or blast, which includes logistics, operational, cleanup and health services for wounded and then divide the number of combatants killed = staggering. Give the guys everything to their advantage i.e.: we win they lose! Lower the ROE, and let them loose so we can lower the cost in our lives and per combatant. You need to make it so the enemy has nothing worth dying for or help those that don't care reach their person goals. Lastly and most of all do it for the poor losers who have embraced the Global Warming, albeit dying hoax. They are going to need some other cause to embrace – like hating winners, capitalists and America. (Sorry I was just informed they already do)

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Jermaine February 13, 2010 at 5:53 pm

Man, that's really crazy the way the military gets around doing this. It soon becomes normal in keeping secrets like this.

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Dave August 7, 2010 at 8:15 am

Horrible weaponry, I feel sorry for anybody that has anything to do with these on either end of barrel.

The Bush administration blew up the twin towers as a pretext to make money and protect American interests. I’m an American citizen but thank **** I don’t lve in the U.S!

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danmac001 November 8, 2010 at 1:53 am

What money? Where is it? Do you have any proof or are you just repeating what someone has put in your mouth. Did GW personally give a pep talk to the terrorists before sending them out to crash planes into the WTT and the Pentagon or did he use a substitute?
Dave, do us all a favor and stay away from the US, We really don't need any more conspiracy theory numbskulls here.

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danmac001 November 8, 2010 at 1:46 am

I have read about ther "non-combatants" in Fallujiah. In the first battle there were civilians and their presence dictated that there would be a second battle. Before the second battle there was an intense weeks-long information campaign aimed at having "innocents" un-ass the area. Anyone stupid enough to stay–well shame on them, especially since all and sundry knew that by staying they were declaring themselves as combatants. The second battle of Fallujiah was an all-out "kill 'em all" effort as all battles should be. I have no sympathy for any hypothetical "innocent" civilians killed in that battle and huge scepticism that there were any.

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inalienablewrights November 27, 2011 at 5:39 am

Wonderful another weapon (after the sound cannons used at the Pittsburgh PA G20) to use against the American people.

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Cameron April 21, 2012 at 6:57 pm

There should be more transparency about the ingredients used in these devices. Fallout reports from Fallujah show the presence of toxic metals that undoubtedly also contaminate the bodies of our veterans. Technology should be aimed at increasing precision and reducing collateral damage/fallout.

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