A Canadian soldier with the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment was killed and four others injured when their light armored vehicle, very similar in many respects to the US Army’s Stryker, rolled over after swerving to avoid a local car that was driving without headlights on the highway between Kabul and Kandahar.
After the light armoured vehicle swerved, the driver lost control of the vehicle which went off the highway and rolled over.
“It was purely and simply an accident to avoid a head-on collision,” Craig Oliver, CTV’s Chief Political Correspondent, reported.
Pte. Braun Scott Woodfield, 24, died in the accident.
Predictably, the article contains this:
Earlier, the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III, was called into question after a media report claimed the army had been warned that “speed and driver inexperience” were frequent causes of rollovers.
There have been 10 rollover accidents in the six years the vehicle had been in use.
A 24-year-old Quebec soldier, Pte. Patrick Dessureault, died earlier this year when a LAV-III rolled over into a river during a training exercise in Alberta.
And last year, two Canadians were injured when their LAV rolled into a ravine in Bosnia.
In fact, Google News calls the article “Vehicle safety questioned after soldier’s death”. Once again we hear of the 8-wheeled LAV’s problem with roll-overs. I noted similar coverage of the Stryker very recently. While there’s little doubt that an LAV has a higher center of gravity than, say, a tank, and is much more likely to roll over than, say, a tank, I’m a bit skeptical about that wild-eyed claims that so many seem to have made over the past few years. And I’m not quite so quick to just accept the higher probability of rolling in a Stryker or LAV based on incidents like when two Strykers rolled into a canal in Iraq off of a collapsing roadway or rolling into a ravine in Bosnia.
A Marine tank flipped over while falling into the Euphrates during the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003. I don’t ever see that listed when discussing the probability of M1 tanks to roll over. But we all know that M1’s are nearly impossible to flip, don’t we? And we all know that LAV/Strykers are very prone to flipping, don’t we?
If we do, it might be because so many people act like it’s a self-evident truth. Take, for instance, this in another story:
Military sources said the LAV-3 — its inherent tippiness exaggerated by armour plates added recently to protect soldiers from explosions — rolled over after a civilian car with no headlights suddenly appeared out of the dark.
“Inherent tippiness” according to “military sources”. That, um, leaves a lot of wiggle room, I think. Also, don’t miss the fact that that paragraph is a ‘twofer’. You noticed how add-on armor was implicated in the event as well, didn’t you? And then there’s this in an article entitled Military vehicle in fatal accident has history of rollovers:
Documents obtained through Access to Information laws show the army was warned in May 2004 that “speed and driver inexperience” were frequent causes of rollovers involving the LAV III.
A two-page briefing memo prepared for military leaders said the armoured vehicle is limited in the type of terrain it can handle.
I find this a bit interesting because the article seems to use the report as a cornerstone to build its anti-LAV angle from. Except that both factors are not problems with the vehicle itself, but problems with the drivers or the way it’s used. Despite a slightly bizarre claim by POGO that training was a “band-aid” solution to Stryker driver inexperience with add-on slat armor, it’s obvious that training is how you overcome inexperience. I’m reminded that the first Stryker brigade shredded a ton of tires when they first acquired their vehicles, but as driver experience and training increased, lost tires decreased dramatically. Training and re-training is where it’s at in the military. In this particular case, the driver had four years of experience behind the wheel of an LAV, so I doubt that driver inexperience is at fault this time. And if speed was a factor, or maybe the use of the vehicle in terrain that it can’t handle, that again comes down to factors unrelated directly to the vehicle.
If you read the report note (1 page .pdf) that the story refers to, you’ll see exactly that training seems to have overcome the driver inexperience problems and that steep embankments or collapsing terrain were responsible for the rest. I’m not exactly sure where “speed” comes into it, though.
And how about this:
Like many armoured vehicles and SUVs, the LAV-3s can roll over under certain conditions.
Wow. Comparing LAVs to the big bad SUVs. Though, to their credit, they go on to note that “several defence sources” claim that vehicle structural issues haven’t been a factor in any of the Lav roll-overs and that “accidents still happen”.
I know it sounds like I’m getting all up in arms about this, here. As a bit of a Stryker fan, I guess I’m tired of seeing the same old “anti wheels” claims peddled about as gospel. Yes, the Stryker/LAV is probably a lot more prone to rolling than a tank. But, then, so is everything else. It’s this last point that usually is ignored or goes unmentioned. I don’t claim to know if Strykers/LAVs roll more often than most other vehicles or not. But let’s look at some numbers and compare.
Oh. The Canadian military has. And it says that they’re actually less-likely, statistically, to roll than other troop carriers. And later they also point out that they are also less-likely to roll than a sport utility vehicle. They give no numbers, though.
If you click the pic near the top of this story, you can access a video of a Canadian LAV firing its gun. The fact that standard Canadian LAVs are armed with stabilized turrets sporting the reliable M242 Bushmaster 25mm chain gun probably, if anything, gives them an even slightly higher center of gravity than US Strykers. And, most definitely, significantly greater firepower. Another pic of a Canadian LAV-III with full load-out, crew, and dismounts, can be seen here. For what it’s worth, I still believe that a 25mm-armed Stryker would come in handy.
There’s no doubt that the Strykers and LAVs have their downsides, but both the US and Canadian armies seem to be taking lessons learned and working hard to apply them to the real world. And there’s also no doubt that, in some cases, tracked vehicles (such as the upgraded M113s that so many anti-Stryker folks seem to advocate) would be a better choice. But nothing is a one-size-fits-all solution, and the Strykers have performed quite well overall since first arriving in Iraq at the end of 2003. By all means, let’s discuss their pros and cons. Let’s just do so fairly and honestly.
Meanwhile, let’s not forget that though the US and Canada have had some differences of opinion on a lot of things lately, the Canadians have been in Afghanistan all along and are continuing to do a great job. Sometimes at great sacrifice.
–cross-posted by Murdoc
But, but … military equipment is supposed to be perfect. LAV/Stryker should never roll over, M1 armor should never be penetrated, V-22 should never crash, laser-guided bombs should never miss, body armor should never fail, radar should never report civilian aircraft as enemy, satellite pictures should never be misinterpreted as WMD depots … (I could go on forever, hope you picked up on the sarcasm).
Umm, the reason it rolled over is that it was sideways on an embankment. Morons, cover the whole story instead of leaving crucial details out to injesct your own opinion in. There arent a whole lot of vehicles that won’t roll over on a steep enough embankment (a tank of course).
Its simple physics, when an objects center of gravity is shifted so dramatically (such as when its on an embankment) it will…wait for it…roll over. It doesnt matter how low its center of gravity is normally.
In other news, in has been found that US soldiers, can’t stand on slopes greater than 60 degrees…jeeze our military sure is slacking…
Umm, the reason it rolled over is that it was sideways on an embankment. Morons, cover the whole story instead of leaving crucial details out to injesct your own opinion in. There arent a whole lot of vehicles that won’t roll over on a steep enough embankment (a tank of course).
Its simple physics, when an objects center of gravity is shifted so dramatically (such as when its on an embankment) it will…wait for it…roll over. It doesnt matter how low its center of gravity is normally.
In other news, in has been found that US soldiers, can’t stand on slopes greater than 60 degrees…jeeze our military sure is slacking…
Chucky was being sarcastic. Read the last line of his post.
Good Morning Folks,
Another Stryker posting, I just can’t resist. Firt of all the shifting problem is refered to a shifting center of mass and is not an uncommon problem with overweight ans over loaded military vehicles.
This is a problem that can be addressed by the “Chain of Command” and should be with an expediated priority.
One solution to the problem, as well as the same problem the U.S. is having in Iraq with up armored and over weight Humvee’s is more and better operator/driver training, this is an old and reaccuring problem in the U.S. Militray and by this posting also the Canadian Forces.
Unfortuntaly more training requires more time and money, both always in short supply with the military of any country. So until this problem gains media attention the High School Drivers Ed. class will have to do to train wheeled vehicles drivers.
Someone out there is going to post that the military alreday has extensice wheeled and track vehicle driver training which it does, but we are still having “Avoidable Accidents” with vehicles so what ever is being done is not enough and not to the right people.
This problem is not unlike the marksmanship problems that happened earlier in the GWOT, Soldiers and Marines were not hitting what they aimed at.
Training and Doctrine cried foul that averyone has his/her annual marksmanship qualifications to pass, well it wasn’t enough.
Now marksmanship training in Basic Combat Training and Officer Basic has been extended by 20 hours and requalification is done twice a year by all. It has cost money and other resources but it has shown results in the GWOT.
The Marines found that by issueing optical sights for the M-16A4 the production of the Riflemen more then doubled.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
The reason the LAV flipped is because the driver was smart enough not to run over a civilian vehicle. The driver is very experienced and knew what he was doing, the added armour plateing was the cause.
Pte. Braun Scott Woodfield lived a street away from me, went to school with my sister, and graduated from my highschool. I hope that you can look past the problem that you are all looking at and realize that the subject really should not be about the LAV-III, but the soldier who died
“The reason the LAV flipped is because the driver was smart enough not to run over a civilian vehicle.“
Well said Ryan. My deepest sympathies regarding the fellow who died.
Its a pity when people (see:Byron Skinner)lose track of what really matters. Byron, first off the fellow was Canadian not American, so more training for American drivers would not have helped. Why must you inject your political leanings into everything you post? And why on earth are you correcting me for saying ‘center of gravity’ instead of “center of mass”? You knew exactly what I meant, and attempting to browbeat me with semantics is childish. Perhaps I should complain about your typos and incorrect sentence structure.
Unless you are actually over in the field, questioning the competence, skill, and training of our soldiers strikes me as both ineducated and demoralizing. I don’t doubt they would be thrilled to hear you questioning their abilities. But (yes but) I’m sure you only say these things because you really REALLY care. You don’t by chance work at the big P or the puzzle palace, do you?
NEWS FLASH: People die in auto accidents. Sometimes they only involve one vehicle. Sometimes it has almost nothing to do with the vehicle or the driver.
In other news, apparently armored military vehicles are vehicles and have to be driven.
The stryker and it older brother the LAV-III are great vehicles that are doing a great job. And for all of those out there that say it should be replaced with a tracked vehicle I think it’s important to point out that the stryker guys say that one of it’s biggest assets is that it’s wheeled and therefor quiter and does not sound like a tank.
Good Evening Folks,
This post has become more interesting in the past 24 hours. To disagree with Mr. Craig Oliver, in light of other recent events it appears that this roll over is not an accident but a new combat tactic that the insurgents are using both in Afghanistan and Iraq.
On or about Nov. 18th. a simular “accident” happened to a M-1126 “Stryker” of the 172ed. Stryker BCT in Iraq rolled over and an American soldier was killed. This past weekend on the “Seven Mile Road” an Army up-armored HUMVEE with three Congressmen on board had a similar roll over “accident”.
Information about the details of all three events is fragmented but two factors seem to be consistent, in all three cases.
A Stryker or HUMVEE traveling at a high rate of speed is encountered by a civilian vehicle head on at night with it’s, the civilian vehicle head lights off. The U.S. vehicle takes evadesive action to avoid a collision and rolls over, because of a high center of mass. In two instences a Soldiers was killed in the third two Congressmen were injured, one beat up pretty badly.
The answer seem to be clear the insurgents have found a fatal flaw in the the designs of both the Stryker and the up-armored HUMVEE. At high speeds there misplaced centers of mass make the vehicle highly susceptible with a tendecy for roll overs. Not unlike some some civilian SUV’s.
The problem here is that drivers travel at high speed and down the center of roads to avoid IED’s. The suicide driver of the civilian vehicle is not playing chicken, he is more then willing to die. The driver of the American or Canadian vehicle has a bad and worse choice to make.
This tactic creates a gut check for the U.S. in it’s ROE. Do you permitt the firing at on comming cilivian vehicles, knowing that the insurgents will put women and children in these vehicles to be killed with the suicide driver, it makes great press, or do you take the loses of American Military Personal?
The engineering problem with the Stryker is rather simple the “Bird Cage” that is suspose to protect against RPG’s adds 6K weight to and already overweight and unbalanced vehicle. The up-armore HUMVEE adds about 3K in additional weight.
From this point on it is a simple High School Freshman Physics of Mass, Speed, and change of direction of the venicle with out reducing the speed. The terrorists/insurgents appears to have passed High School Freshman Physics unlike the “engineers” who design there killer vehicles.
One other very, very distrubing thing going on here is that the terrorists/insurgents in both Afghanistan and Iraq seem to have have estlabished lines of communications that as of yet we have not seem.
With the exchange of tactical information I think it is only a matter of time before the bad guys in both countries get together with there C3 and begain conducting cordinated offsenive combat operations at the sametime in both combat theatres.
This of course could create a whole new set of problems with the U.S’s. efforts in the GWOT.
To those who find problems with my writing have at it, I could care less. I’m far more concerned about the lives of U.S. Military Personal then improving my spelling or dusting off my fourty year old coppy of “Oxford Grammer”.
An finally to anybody who gives a sh**, I have no relationship to the DoD, DoA or the Pentagon other the that of a Taxpayer.
My thing is simply I hate to see Americans killed and especially because of greed and stupidity and I hate to see my Tax Dollars wasted.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Tracked vehicles roll too!
The various causes of M113 APC roll overs are covered in the Australian Army’s relevant driver training courses, i.e. losing a track at speed, mechanical failure locking the differential steering, sudden changes of direction at speed, exceeding the max allowable side slope e.t.c.
Appropriate and continuing training is vital to reduce the occurrence of avoidable accidents as well as to provide the individual with the knowledge of what they them selves are and are not capable of doing.
thanks…
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thamx.military equipment is supposed to be perfec
Craig Oliver and basically all the media in Canada are well known for their lack of knowledge and obvious bias to those in uniform.
They do love to spread a story damning the military regardless of facts. As I was told many years ago, the media will not let a few facts stand in the way of a good story.
thank you
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I didn’t hesitate to think more time and try playing at once. Now I love the Tibia money Game very much.
Craig Oliver and basically all the media in Canada are well known for their lack of knowledge and obvious bias to those in uniform.
They do love to spread a story damning the military regardless of facts. As I was told many years ago, the media will not let a few facts stand in the way of a good story.
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