Imagine this: A super-secret government organization is caught eavesdropping on countless thousands of conversations going in and out of the country. Outraged, Senators demand hearings into the project.
Last month? Nope. Last century, thirty years back.
“Decades before 9/11, and the subsequent Bush order that directed the NSA to eavesdrop on… U.S. citizens… they did the same thing with telegrams,” Bruce Schneier notes. “It was called Project Shamrock, and anyone who thinks this is new legal and technological terrain should read up on that program.“
One of the big legal reforms to come out of Shamrock was the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which set up the series of courts that the Bush Administration is now circumventing with its current eavesdropping effort.
A lot of people are trying to say that it’s a different world today, and that eavesdropping on a massive scale is not covered under the FISA statute, because it just wasn’t possible or anticipated back then. That’s a lie. Project Shamrock began in the 1950s, and ran for about twenty years. It too had a massive program to eavesdrop on all international telegram communications, including communications to and from American citizens. It too was to counter a terrorist threat inside the United States. It too was secret, and illegal. It is exactly, by name, the sort of program that the FISA process was supposed to get under control.
UPDATE 12:41 PST: Check out this WaPo op-ed, on the difference between World War II’s eavesdropping efforts and today’s.
The difference between Bletchley Park [the UK’s codebreaking center in the 40’s] and Crypto City [the NSA HQ] has as much to do with the very different nature of their tasks as with the way they are viewed. By today’s standards, the mission at Bletchley Park was well-defined. The targets of the surveillance were clear: the German high command and intelligence service. The signals collectors had a good fix on what communications to monitor. The greatest challenge lay in breaking the extremely complex Enigma code.
By contrast, the NSA conducts broad-based surveillance indiscriminately over communications lines that few bad guys even use any longer. “Big Noddy,” as those in the know call the NSA’s vast “Ear in the Sky,” has capabilities that dwarf the Bletchley Park World War II enterprise, but it isn’t picking up much because the smartest terrorist groups have long since stopped talking about their plans over cell phones or land lines — or to the extent they do, it’s probably to plant disinformation. Today the challenge isn’t decoding an intercepted message from a known enemy; instead it’s figuring out what is and isn’t a message and who the enemy is.
(Big ups: HLS Watch)
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Good Afternoon Folks,
I very much hate to agree with President Bush but his statement yesterday of “…when al Qaeda calls somebosy in the United States we want to know what they are talking about.“
Our nation is at war and something that many considered “rights” must be put in obeiance until the emergency has passed. I ask anybody who claims that thereis a violation of their “Right to Privacy please show us where the word privacy appears in the U.S. Constitution.
During WWII people of Japanese ancestry were put into internment camps for the duration of the war because they were a risk to national security, today we have to put up with the Government listening in on our communications.
I’m sure that in the distant future there will be a massive Civil Suit in Federal Courts over this and a few underserving folks will make a pile of money but for now I don’t know of any alternate.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
which was leagllay and constitutionally authorized by Bush)
Ha!
So if the president does it, it’s not against the law?
Crack me up …
During WWII people of Japanese ancestry were put into internment camps for the duration of the war because they were a risk to national security
Racist.
A: This is felonious behavior on the part of the President and the NSA, in the FISA act, which resulted from the previous NSA domestic spying.
B: If it really WAS so limited, you woundn’t have had the Justice department refusing to sign off on it, or FISC objecting.
C: The FISC court is specifically designed for what the administration has publically claimed they did, and is notoriously compliant (not quite but almost a rubberstamp).
D: If the FISA act was too restrictive, it could have easily been changed, especially in the post September 11th 2001/2002 era where this program began.
But rather than work within the very loose limits of the FISA act (which includes retroactive warrants, very fast lead times and near-instant approval, 3 levels of appeal if the executive branch isn’t satisfied) or changing the law to enable this program (if you could get through the Patriot act in Fall 2001, you could have gotten major changes to FISA approved), the Administration, over the objections of many within it (including the acting Attorney General), embarked on an illegal, felonious program.
This is not a democratic or republican issue, as wittnessed by several Republican senators’ vocal objections. Its a rule-of-law issue. If the law is too restrictive for national security, change the law. If the law is NOT too restrictive, work within it.
If the program IS as the President pubically claims, it would have easily passed muster with the FISC court, and there wouldn’t be a problem if the administration did follow the law. If the program is NOT as the President claims, then why not have a compliant Congress change the law, especially in 2001 or 2002 when this program reportedly began.
If we don’t have the rule of law, and we don’t have a president willing to follow the law, we no longer have a functioning democracy.
Here! here! Nicholas …
The rule of law is what stands between all of us and the arbitrary exercise of power by the state.
While I agree that the current NSA operations do indeed exceed the limits set by the FISA, I also don’t see any alternative if our IC wants to get real, up-to-date, useful intel. Warfare has changed from having a clearcut enemy, to a guerilla-style enemy that both lurks in the shadows and hides in the open. You have two options in this scenario; either target specific persons intensely, or gather as much broad info as possible and try to sift through it for relevant intel. When specific targets are as elusive and unreachable as ones in the Middle East, the only other alternative is a broad approach. It’s similar to the decision to send a remote unmanned attack vehicle into a cave to take out one terrorist, or hit it with a Daisycutter and take out everything inside.
The fact is, terrorists will continue to use telephones, e-mail, etc. just as the rest of us do.They don’t have to communicate plans for us to discover behavior patterns re their communications. For example, the NSA knew Kalhid Al Midhar and Al Hazmi (2 (9/11 hijackers) called a suspected AQ logistics facility located in Yemen from Los Angeles in 2000. Merely following the calls and other types of ‘innocent contact’ outside and within the U.S. can garner very valuable intelligence on the lead up to the execution of an attack.
The Bush administration should go for a FISA for eveything they do, however, even if retroactive. If not, it can open the door for programs like Shamrock, which no one wants to repeat.
“If you’ve got nothing to hide, then you’ve got nothing to be afraid of. The government can snoop on all my calls and e-mails if they want (just don’t tell me about it).“
The problem with that line of reasoning is that it assumes that those in power will always be honest about those they watch, prosecute and jail.
I’ve met more than one old guy in the Soviet Union who was a party member in good standing, and believed in the system as fervently as you believe in the GOP and their stewardship (just taking a guess here, but with phrases like ” … the liberal media … “, “As for singling out Muslims for scrunity … “, and “It’s not racist if it’s true.” I’m making an educated guess that you ARE a conservative and Bush/Cheney supporter); hell, some of them were even decorated war veterans.
They generally told the same stories. You’d get to hear lots of, “I was sure my arrest was some sort of a mistake; a bureaucratic foul up. After all, what had I done?“
You know where they spent about a fifth of their lives?
Labor camps.
The founders of this country put in an arcane and hard to negate system of checks and balances precisely BECAUSE they knew that if corrupt people got into power, they would use whatever unhindered tools they could lay there hands on, to wield and keep that power.
I love how the Mainsteam Media always loves to throw theory or assumption myth or just opinion into the pot with some facts in a attempt to either play down the facts or in this case play up the assumption like fact. I think thier is a word for that hmmm oh I got it now Propoganda Gerbals would be proud.
If the NSA and Bush had got caught using the program to get dirt on political enemies or bust common criminals (something I doubt the NSA is even interested in getting into) or just having some good old Bushitler fun time with it…that would be news and that would deserve a leak even thou it still should have gone throught the proper channels they are their for a reason and I would be with you. But that is not the case in this case you have a president using a new weapon against our enemies. This is another case like the Thermabaric weapons Noah did earlier if you are pissed or disturbed about how a weapon could possible or maybe be abused but is being used properly and is awsome at its job killing defeating our enemy faster better, if this bothers you you are hopeless. And I would wager that if you were on the front line you would be first in line demanding that little extra edge. A weapon all the way down to a knife in the wrong hands can be abused but if used properly is a tool of greatness. This spy system has major abuse potential but also greatness if used properly. I have seen no evidence of abuse short the Bushitler is involved it must be evil hyperventalating.
In WW2 FDR put the japaneese in concentration camps and dont forget their was alot of German and Italian groups who favored the wrong side that were either rounded up too or spyed on to find out if they were guilty or innocent. Alot of other groups too got the same treatment even thou they werent down with the Nazi mentality at all just hated America and therefore were monitored for the possibility of trying to take advantage of a situation.
Bottom line is in the end I think this whole program will be compormised Bush will be found within legal authority and the program was not being abused. The result will be a major victory for the enemy some partisan points for the Dems and huge loss to US the peoples security OUR security. One thing I think must be done is this leak counter leak trend must be stopped it is time to set a example leaking Classified info is illegal its called treason one of the things Ames was caught leaking was a cable tap the Navy had on the Soviet Union in thier national waters, maybe he disagreed with the program maybe he thought it was a dangerous near act of war maybe he thought he needed some good old cash, either way it was treason just like this Leak here same thing. Classified means Classified you cant have everybody making thier own determination on every classified program that will be choas and everything will end up declassified for this or that reason and we really will be unsafe. The reporters should be rounded up imprisoned until they tell then all involved should go to prison for along time it should be done like Ames case make a example.
It is amazing to me how those who demand that we cant profile our enemies everyone must be assumed innocent, in the same breath pre judge and profile the gov especially Bush & the Military as guilty or evil.
And as a side note & pure opinion I have a feeling that Sen. Rokefellar or someone close to him will be drug into this and be a mojor part of the leak for two reasons 1) I just think it really odd the letter saved and sent, to me that just says he either knew he was going to drop the dime or knew that the dime was going down, he had access and knew it was classified so the common knowledge should not have been possible 2) he has a history of leaking Noah did a story awhile back on a Stealth Sat that the good senator was pissed got black oped over his objection so he decided to leak the program to the media, wether you agree or disagree with the program abilities that is illegal even though nothing was done about it but when you get away with something once the odds of repeat are increased by a factor.