One of the reasons I never got too tweaked in Iraq was my confidence in my Interceptor body armor. Now, according to the New York Times, I should have panicked more.
Piggybacking on a Soldiers for the Truth expose, the paper reports on a “Pentagon study [which] found that at least 80 percent of the marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to their upper body could have survived if they had extra body armor.”
That armor has been available since 2003 but until recently the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection, according to military officials.
The ceramic plates in vests currently worn by the majority of military personnel in Iraq cover only some of the chest and back. In at least 74 of the 93 fatal wounds that were analyzed in the Pentagon study of marines from March 2003 through June 2005, bullets and shrapnel struck the marines’ shoulders, sides or areas of the torso where the plates do not reach.
Thirty-one of the deadly wounds struck the chest or back so close to the plates that simply enlarging the existing shields “would have had the potential to alter the fatal outcome,” according to the study.
Trouble with the Interceptor armor has surfaced before. The Marines ordered the recall of more than 5,000 of the Interceptor Outer Tactical Vests (OTVs) back in May. Another 18,000 were recalled in December, says Soldiers for the Truth.
“For more than two years [Soldiers for the Truth’s] DefenseWatch has received reports and complaints from Grunts in Iraq and Afghanistan that the Interceptor gear is lousy,” the group notes. “In late October DW began receiving reports for war fighters in Iraq that the American Armed Forces Network was warning its radio listeners there that the Coalition had received intelligence about insurgents snipers that were being trained to aim at areas of vulnerability between Small Arms Protective Inserts (SAPI plates) hard composite armor plate — where Coalition war fighters wearing Interceptor armor are particularly vulnerable.“
Still, 80% of casualties? That number seems awfully high. Maybe the sample was off, somehow. Or maybe I’m in denial.
UPDATE 01/08/05 10:05 AM PST: Over on the National Security Round Table list, Phil Carter — who’s currently in Iraq — echoes what guys like Nicholas Weaver and Joe Katzman have been saying in the comments.
What troubles me about this story (and the larger debate) is this: It assumes that we can and should put an infinite amount of armor on our troops, and that the trade-offs between armor and effectiveness/weight/speed/maneuverability are illegitimate. This goes to the “force protection uber alles” mentality that we talked about a few months ago. And I also think it reflects a larger ignorance about combat that’s prevalent among many critics and decisionmakers. Risk is inherent in combat. We try to minimize and mitigate the risks to the extent practicable, but ultimately, we have to take risks to win.
Phil Fraering also points out this AP story:
U.S. soldiers in the field were not all supportive of a Pentagon study that found improved body armor saves lives, with some troops arguing Saturday that more armor would hinder combat effectivenes…
Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division’s 3rd Brigade “Rakkasans” are required to wear an array of protective clothing they refer to as their “happy gear,” ranging from Kevlar drapes over their shoulders and sides, to knee pads and fire-resistant uniforms.
But many soldiers say they feel encumbered by the weight and restricted by fabric that does not move as they do. They frequently joke as they strap on their equipment before a patrol, and express relief when they return and peel it off.
UPDATE 01/11/06 9:51 AM: This rules. In the comments, a former Marine sergeant writes, “During the invasion phase of the war, only non-rates were issued SAPI plates. All NCO’s and above wore only the vest into combat. Following orders, I collected all ‘unauthorized reading material’ from my Marines and then redistributed it to my NCO’s to wear in their vests as extra protection. So, we marched into war with porn instead of SAPI plates as added protection.”
I’m a former 0311 and a current police/SWAT officer. I think the main problem is the typical problem with big government, they have to bid out contracts and usually don’t get the best overall product. Pinnacle body armour has a level III vest (SOV-2000) that would be the best of both worlds (protection/comfort,manuverability) for grunts but it’s 5K per vest. Its alot cheaper to stick a steel plate that can only take a few hits before it gives out, in a carrier. I know what carrying alot of gear can do to you, but I would personally add 17–18 lbs fighting in cities like in Iraq.
Will wrote about the North Hollywood shoot out and the Two A-Holes with all of the body armor. Those guys could not move worth a damn and had the fire power to keep officers away.
As soon and The officers got the rifles from B and B guns. The problem was over. The Armor stopped 9mm rounds yes but how many of our enemies are waging war w/9mm handguns?
It’s apples and oranges. I think what they have is doing a decent job. Going back to the middle ages, even children learned to find the chinks in armor.
Sgt DeRoche is about cracked the hell out. I don’t know where he’s been, or if he’s admin or what — but good training and command isn’t going to save you from a Hadji sniper with a 7.62 armour piercing round. Especially about the time he takes aim at your shoulders or your lower torso. Don’t get me wrong, being able to keep on your toes always helps. But not from somebody trying to lay you out 500+m away. Better armour is in order.
We could fully armor every Marine and offer them the best protection possible by issuing each and every one their own personal M1 Abrams Tank.
I don’t mean to make light of the situation and I know that it smacks of sarcasm but taking examples to the extremes often serves to highlight the problem and make it easier to understand. So humor me and play along for a couple of minutes. Why don’t we issue each Marine his own person M1 Tank?
Mobility — There are many required functions you can’t perform from inside a tank so to their jobs it will be necessary to leave the confines of the tank. Now apply that logic to body armor, the heavier and bulkier you make it the more functions you will be required to remove your body armor to accomplish. So now we reach a decision threshold, which is better, body armor that offers less protection that allows you to perform all required tasks while wearing it or body armor that provides better protection but sometimes has to be removed to perform certain tasks at those times providing no protection?
Weight — Just like we wouldn’t be able transport them if each Marine were issued his own tank, at some point (at a much lower weight than most people realize) body armor weight impacts our ability to transport Marines to the battlefield. The weight that can be carried by the Marine’s main transport helicopter the CH-46 Sea Knight is finite. Just because you can fit something onto it doesn’t mean you can lift it off the ground. These helicopters often operate near max gross weight, you add 10–15 lbs of weight to each grunts load and you have to make up that weight somewhere else. Do you carry less fuel decreasing the distance you can travel? Do you carry less ammunition for the aircraft weapons systems putting everyone aboard the aircraft at greater risk? No the reality is your payload continuously gets smaller, now you can carry one less grunt per load, then with the next itteration of additional protection and more weight two less grunts, etc.
Cost — Here is the one everyone would like to pretend doesn’t matter or factor in but the cold, hard fact is that it does. Just as it wouldn’t be cost effective to issue each and every Marine a tank for personal protection at some point it isn’t cost effective to improve body armor. If we took the current tanks in the inventory (because we have all the tanks we can afford) and said ok we have tanks, they keep you safe so only Marines with tanks can be forward deployed, we have now limited the number of Marines we can put into battle. Now lets look at our armor systems and apply the tank logic. If we develop personal armor systems that are so expensive we can only afford to equip a fraction of our force which is better, cheaper, less effective armor that I can afford to provide to each and every Marine or armor that is so expensive that I can only equip a single rifle company?
None of this means we shouldn’t continue to research, fund and develop improved armor that is lighter, stronger and allows more mobility, but we also have to realize that everything at some point is a compromise and not play to politicians that spend their time trying to create issues to use against one another. Just because some other form of protection is available that increases performance on one end of the spectrum it doesn’t mean that it is the best solution because it is probably lacking in some other area of consideration. It is the job of Marine Corps Systems Command to decide which equipment will be procured they have to find that bubble where protection, mobility and cost are all given the correct amount of consideration. Don’t buy into soundbites from politicians. The Marines at Marine Corps Systems Command who are involved in developing, testing and procuring equipment want the Marines in the field to have exactly what they need to accomplish their mission.
Kevin Winters
GySgt USMC (Ret.)
“We could fully armor every Marine and offer them the best protection possible by issuing each and every one their own personal M1 Abrams Tank.
I don’t mean to make light of the situation and I know that it smacks of sarcasm but taking examples to the extremes often serves to highlight the problem and make it easier to understand. “
And sometimes taking the example to extremes serves to obscure the argument entirely. Would increasing the size of the plates to increase coverage of the torso really be equivalent to giving every Marine an M1 Abrams?
Please. Unless you think that the armor is absolutely perfect the way it is and that fighting in Iraq has taught us nothing about our equipment, there’s a perfectly reasonable discussion to be had about its various components. That discussion has–unfortunately–not happened in these comments.
As a former Marine and parent of a current Marine I agree we need we need to improve the armor. The solution is not just larger plates using the same technology. Our folks need lighter armor that provides the desired coverage. Years ago our science advisor would call me evert week with a new piece of technology that “Only weighed” 5 pounds. I finally asked him after 4 such gadgets what did he want me to leave home so I could carry the load, water, ammor, food, or sleeping gear? Weight and overall mobility for dismounted infantry is critical.
Better armor is the way to go but, there are better ways then using heavy duty “metals” that weigh you down. There are alternatives out there in this world that can be used that are just as effective and cheaper than what our government pays today. Unfortunitly our government doesn’t go shopping like it has a welfare budget, it shops like a “cheaper Bill Gates.”” Its not the most expensive but its second on the list lets get it!” For an example of one of those alternatives, everyone knows what corningware is but does everyone know that during the cold war before the design for corningware changed was used as the nose cone for nuclear weapons. Now if a dish that we use to cook mom’s favorite meal in is strong enough to withstand the pressures of what a nuclear weapon goes through there is something there. Not to mention that the heat tiles on this countries beloved space shuttles are made of the same material.….America think about it.
Check this link:
http://www.hk94.com/hk/index.php?s=&showtopic=17944&view=findpost&p=171559
Soldier currently deployed in Afghanistan says his unit has had these plates for awhile and they have opted to not even use them; they hinder mobility too much.
Let’s not get too excited about manufacturing a lot of these plates. If our men can’t move around in this stuff, and are going to refuse to wear them, it’s a waste of money.
The FLAKs need to be lighter, b/c with all the ammo and camelbak full of water is heavy enuff to wear whenever we go on 24hr operations it gets a little heavy on the shoulders and during the blazing summers over here its not too cool and whenever the gov gets the crazy idea to add more body armor, the marines are just gonna proudly accept their “charge sheets”
It was my experience that many, if not most troops, didn’t use the groin protecter and that some would even forego the current SAPI plates. The soldiers don’t need more and more weight. I’ve seen the weight on the current SAPI plate listed as 4 pounds each. That must be for the small size because my XL size plates were a lot heavier than that.
Check out body armor called “Dragon Skin” made by Pinnacle Armor Inc. Also go to defencereview.com for info on it. Says that it will stop an AK-47 round in its tracks. Secret Service uses it.
When we think of more armor we need to remember the Battle of Crecy on 26 August 1346 when 20,000 to 40,000 French attacked 12,000 English.
The heavily armored French knights lost between 6,000 to 20,000 slaughter as they lay in the mud incapacated by their heavy armor.
The English lighly armored/no armor lost 150–1,000 KIA.
The following (Below my comments) was posted on your page and I cannot even find such a web site (defensereview.com). It is ‘for sale’.
Our men and women should have the best defense and the best equiptment that is available. We give money to everything else don’t we, including countries that don’t even like us.>
“Check out body armor called “Dragon Skin” made by Pinnacle Armor Inc. Also go to defencereview.com for info on it. Says that it will stop an AK-47 round in its tracks. Secret Service uses it.“
Posted by: PD at January 12, 2006 10:36 AM
“When we think of more armor we need to remember the Battle of Crecy on 26 August 1346 when 20,000 to 40,000 French attacked 12,000 English.
The heavily armored French knights lost between 6,000 to 20,000 slaughter as they lay in the mud incapacated by their heavy armor.
The English lighly armored/no armor lost 150–1,000 KIA.“
The next time I am in Crecy being attacked by English longbowmen, I will keep your comment in mind.
Isnt this more of a question of having a tool at ones use rather than a debate between cost/protection/movement? I’ve had several friends and family memeber “over there” throughout my life, I’ve heard the stories and as the generations progressed from my grandfather going to war with nothing but a cotton shirt on to my uncle serving in desert storm and bosnia to two of my best friends fighting in Iraq there has been one fundemental change in their stories, the amount of friends they have lost. All of them site the body armor we now have available as a reason so many have been spared. sure this means that head shots are becoming a more viable target but it is also a much smaller target area. The side plates are a bonus, IF the soldier has the choice to use the item or not. Patrols, and transport missions, where mobility is vital, a certain degree of protection could be left at base, but in home searches and foot patrols, would not the option to have that extra protection be a bonus? Before the soldier had no choice because none was provided. Isn’t that the whole point. I think the real problem will be if the side plates are made a mandatory regulation.
The Government doesn’t care enough about the soldiers/Marines to provide additional funding required to save lives.…They want to get the job done at the LEAST cost to them…if it mean risking their lives “oh well..there’s more of them and they’ll just keep recruiting them“
With the technology we have today our Men and Women in the Military should be wearing fully armored suits that are next to impenetrable.
They exist…Our Soldier’s Lives just aren’t worth the COST in the Govn’t’s eyes.
I mean common man when are people going to wake up! I see people posting names of manufacturer’s on here.…you really think THE U.S. Govn’t needs advice on where to go for better armor?? LOL
It’s the GOVERNMENT for Christ sake! They’re just cheap!
For as much of the ‘Politically Correct’ B.S. that the Government releases pertaining to ‘Condolences and Prayers for the Soldiers and Families’.…ALL military personnel are expendable and just there to further an agenda far beyond what they are told and TOTALLY unrelated to FREEDOM OR DEMOCRACY. In a democratic nation, the president is chosen by the people, not cheated in by family members in Florida or Ohio.
Point is…it’s the Soldier’s that deserve the respect for laying their lives on the line for what I believe are TRUE and HONORABLE intentions, unlike the intentions the Govn’t has by placing them in Iraq or any other land for that matter.
The VERY LEAST the Govn’t could do is Protect their lives to the best of their ability. But the Soldiers won’t even get that Respect.
President Bush once said that Saddam Hussein did NOT cause 9/11/ So why are we talking about armor when our troops shouldn’t even be in Iraq? Bush aslo said that he doesn’t think about Bin Laden to much. That issue doesn’t take much of his time, he said. Hopeless. Robert Burnett
I love the full body armor suit comment…thats a thing of beauty. I already have to hump around 100lbs. of gear and a weapon and my own body weight…lets be brilliant and add another 100lbs. to that. Sure, I wont die from a bullet, but an rpg, ied, or hey lets be real, heat exhaustion will sure as hell get me then. Heres a thought, dont want to get shot at or shot, continue whining on Internet posts and…DONT JOIN THE CORPS OR THE ARMY!
yea most of us dont care about the war. its our job to fight it whether we believe in it or not. its our profession. with the body armor your screwed if you do wear it and your screwed if you dont. the government does what they do as best as they can. they ask us all the time what we need. i aint no officer i aint no staff sgt. they ask we tell em. you all need to remember there is no cure for a bullet to the head. the enemy i fight isnt retarded in anyway shape or form he knows where to hit, because he studies us and our equipment as much as we study him. theres always a consequence to every action so stop complaining im tired of hearing it nothings ever perfect
cpl
usmc
I work for a police department — and the question just isn’t how many cops could we save if we made the armor bigger… it’s how many cops are saved by the armor that they have and wear. Too much armor that amounted to too much weight would become something that people just didn’t want to wear.
If you think that additional body armor is the answer, take two 100 lb bags of concrete, strap them to your chest and then put on a raincoat and run a mile in 100+ degree heat. In combat, everything (I say again for you slow learning liberals and white flag Democrats), everything is a trade-off. For every thing you get you give up something else. Increased safety versus decreased mobility, greater discomfort and potential life threatening heat stroke. Its know as the “Law of Retroprocity.“
I know what I’m talking about. I served as an infantry platoon commander in Viet Nam and later a whole lot of time training at Twenty Nine Palms.
My graduate level courses in Public Administration tuaght me that there are no simple solutions only alternatives. The operative definition for “solution” is the answere to one problem that in and of itself does not create any other problems.
Finally, I rather doubt that the people doing and touting these studies have ever deemed it necessary to put themselves at risk to test their theories.
First of all the thought of more armor is nice, but honestly who in the hell wants to put more gear on just to have less mobility and higher levels of fatigue? All of these liberals think that we need help getting more effective gear, and better up-armored vehicles. Why don’t they think of a better solution than trying to keep us over there longer. This may be a war we were thrown into, but not a war we should be fighting. Embracing a democratic society in a country that believes in dictatorship is not only wasting our time and money, but it’s also costing our troops there lives. Don’t get me wrong I have my fellow marines backs any time of the day. All I can think about is coming home everyday I’m over there. If you haven’t been to Iraq or any middle eastern country take a vacation there with your family. See what we see everyday trying to defend your freedom. Everybody needs to stop worrying about themselves and dedicate some time and money to the troops that are supporting you right to be free. We don’t ask for much except some respect. When the military requests problems to be fixed, fix them with no questions asked. We’re the ones fighting the war not you politicians or civilians. You have no idea how to fix it because your not getting shot at everyday, as you live your comfortable lives day to day. Just shut your mouths and listen to the experts when the make suggestions. We’re the ones that know this the best, because we are on the job 365 days a year 24 hours a day. Thanks for you time, and if you want to discuss this email me at jameszipperer@hotmail.com
Perhaps this has already been addressed but I’m not sure what we’re supposed to get from the 80% fatality statistic. No matter what the level of body armor if we’re talking about fatalities to the upper torso, if you die of such a wound isn’t there a high probability that whatever level of armor you had it wasn’t enough and you could have survived if you had more? Obviously the total number of fatalities would differ depending on the level of body armor but it’s not clear to me that the 80% statistic would change significantly even with an increase in body armor.
Too the poster below re armor for the legs, being able to run in them with no loss of mobility…was this with the rest of the gear a standard Marine carries? I wouldn’t know myself but it’s not that any particular piece of armor is too heavy but 2 lbs. here, 15 lbs. there it all adds up when you also have to carry the standard gear that Marines/soldiers were expected to carry when they didn’t have any body armor at all.
During my first deployment I was issued only one sapi plate. And just my luck it was a medium. Now that would have been fine with me, but I was wearing a small flak jacket. And if you have ever had this problem, you know that the only place you can put a MED plate in a small vest is the back. My OIC said, “at least you got one”
I have has issued both the new Point Blank vest and the old flack jacket and the Point Blank vest is vastly superiour. The fact that the DOD now issues a vest to troops that is truely BULLET PROOF should not be over look. Right now our Marines and soldiers and better protected in combat then at any time in the history of this country. Ask this question, how many more would we have buried from this war without the Interceptor vest?
This 80% statistic that is being thrown around is nothing more then liberal media trying to start controversy over a non issue.
Should we try to find a way to better protect our troops in the future, absolutely. But lets not forget that we should be thankful for the level of protection they have today.
Covering a soldier in ceramic plates would not make him/her invincible. It would just increase the number of rounds required to kill that soldier. (Remember, level 4 armor is designed to stop only one 30–06 steel-cored bullet. Beyond that, it is useless.) Covering someone in ceramic plates would be even worse, since a lack of mobility will make it easier to deliver that second shot.) I’m sure the LeMas blended metal bullets will give even the newest armors (including the vehicle armors) a run for its money.
yes,very interesting.thanks
“LeMas blended metal bullets…“
Are a joke… Do some real research and you’ll find out what I mean.
mass X velocity = energy
Let’s be realistic: the way to penetrate body armor is to put more energy across a smaller surface area. That means longer, narrower pointed bullets (read: rifle bullets and high velocity sabots) at higher velocities. If we’re going to start talking about materials, our goal should be a heavier projectile with a harder point, because more weight carries energy better. Once we’ve reached the pinnacle of technology there, it’s velocity, Velocity, VELOCITY. That formula can defeat any armor ever made.
As for the 80% figure, that’s the media for you. If every soldier had 360 degrees of 3″ steel plate, they could call it 99% better. I do not believe that we should cut the media any slack because they have not been vetted in combat and they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. I demand that they should stat giving combat vets who have communications degrees a decent chance at explaining this complicated stuff to the masses, who don’t really care anyway.
God, this crap frustrates me.
Anyone heard of Dragonskin? Well you should really look into it. I have been very excited as a marine to see this on the verge of possibly replacing the old armor system.
Anyone heard of Dragonskin? Well you should really look into it. I have been very excited as a marine to see this on the verge of possibly replacing the old armor system.
I would like to speak with Pat McGilton USMC Retired. Dick Rudlaff drudlaff@comcast.net
gentlemen. perhaps someone should get the man in charge to hop on over to delta command and see if they want to share any input. their chameleon suits that refract light around operatives through satellite uplink would certainly address the fatigue problem. i’ll have to agree with cpl H that no amount of training or expertise or years of experience can prepare you for an unexpected attack in an unexpected place. only esp or body armor can do that.…
Paint some teflon on the tips of the rifle shells and watch how easily they cut through synthetic body armour. A little space age lube goes a long way.
Most Teflon paint requires heat to fully bake out and cure. It will still dry on the surface (tip) of the Full Metal Jacket. Once dry it will feed into the gun. Once fired it will cure the teflon paint and rip right through those synthetic polymers and especially Kevlar fabrics.
Dragon Armour meets the Dragon Speer Cartridge.
How about a synthetic Carbon graphite and Kevlar composite suit made rigid with high impact epoxy resins? Honey comb layers would give a thicker armour plate without lots of weight. The honey combs will also absorb some of the impact force as well. The same technigue is applied in the aerospace industry with aeroframes and wing panels.
We have created plates that are extrememly light weight and bullet proof to most small caliber rifles (5.56 to 7.62x51mm).
The Dragon Armour also does not protect the armpits. Any soldier entering a room and finding himself shot from the side may find that bullet traveling through the armpit, or down the arm into the chest cavity.
First, Teflon has no effect at all on armor, the old KTW rounds (read as
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