One of the reasons I never got too tweaked in Iraq was my confidence in my Interceptor body armor. Now, according to the New York Times, I should have panicked more.
Piggybacking on a Soldiers for the Truth expose, the paper reports on a “Pentagon study [which] found that at least 80 percent of the marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to their upper body could have survived if they had extra body armor.”
That armor has been available since 2003 but until recently the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection, according to military officials.
The ceramic plates in vests currently worn by the majority of military personnel in Iraq cover only some of the chest and back. In at least 74 of the 93 fatal wounds that were analyzed in the Pentagon study of marines from March 2003 through June 2005, bullets and shrapnel struck the marines’ shoulders, sides or areas of the torso where the plates do not reach.
Thirty-one of the deadly wounds struck the chest or back so close to the plates that simply enlarging the existing shields “would have had the potential to alter the fatal outcome,” according to the study.
Trouble with the Interceptor armor has surfaced before. The Marines ordered the recall of more than 5,000 of the Interceptor Outer Tactical Vests (OTVs) back in May. Another 18,000 were recalled in December, says Soldiers for the Truth.
“For more than two years [Soldiers for the Truth’s] DefenseWatch has received reports and complaints from Grunts in Iraq and Afghanistan that the Interceptor gear is lousy,” the group notes. “In late October DW began receiving reports for war fighters in Iraq that the American Armed Forces Network was warning its radio listeners there that the Coalition had received intelligence about insurgents snipers that were being trained to aim at areas of vulnerability between Small Arms Protective Inserts (SAPI plates) hard composite armor plate — where Coalition war fighters wearing Interceptor armor are particularly vulnerable.“
Still, 80% of casualties? That number seems awfully high. Maybe the sample was off, somehow. Or maybe I’m in denial.
UPDATE 01/08/05 10:05 AM PST: Over on the National Security Round Table list, Phil Carter — who’s currently in Iraq — echoes what guys like Nicholas Weaver and Joe Katzman have been saying in the comments.
What troubles me about this story (and the larger debate) is this: It assumes that we can and should put an infinite amount of armor on our troops, and that the trade-offs between armor and effectiveness/weight/speed/maneuverability are illegitimate. This goes to the “force protection uber alles” mentality that we talked about a few months ago. And I also think it reflects a larger ignorance about combat that’s prevalent among many critics and decisionmakers. Risk is inherent in combat. We try to minimize and mitigate the risks to the extent practicable, but ultimately, we have to take risks to win.
Phil Fraering also points out this AP story:
U.S. soldiers in the field were not all supportive of a Pentagon study that found improved body armor saves lives, with some troops arguing Saturday that more armor would hinder combat effectivenes…
Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division’s 3rd Brigade “Rakkasans” are required to wear an array of protective clothing they refer to as their “happy gear,” ranging from Kevlar drapes over their shoulders and sides, to knee pads and fire-resistant uniforms.
But many soldiers say they feel encumbered by the weight and restricted by fabric that does not move as they do. They frequently joke as they strap on their equipment before a patrol, and express relief when they return and peel it off.
UPDATE 01/11/06 9:51 AM: This rules. In the comments, a former Marine sergeant writes, “During the invasion phase of the war, only non-rates were issued SAPI plates. All NCO’s and above wore only the vest into combat. Following orders, I collected all ‘unauthorized reading material’ from my Marines and then redistributed it to my NCO’s to wear in their vests as extra protection. So, we marched into war with porn instead of SAPI plates as added protection.”
{ 90 comments… read them below or add one }
It actually wouldn’t suprise me TOO much. 80% seems a little high, but consider:
The medical care is so amazing that most wounds which aren’t to the chest or head are non-fatal. Remeber the “No fatalities after the casualties got to a field hospital” bit during the invasion (that IIRC, was correct!!!!)
Thus of the fatal woulds, they have to be in the chest or head. Given that the body armor is pretty impressive if the bullet hits the ceramic plate, this means the fatal wounds are almost all either in the head or through the gaps in the ceramic plate: on the sides. Given the relative area of the sides of the body vs size of the head, the 80% number may actually be correct for those who died due to bullets or shrapnel.
Oh, the 80% number makes perfect sense:
The study was “Fatalities due to wounds to the torso”. So shrapnel & bullet wounds only, and only to the torso.
Thus that 80% of the fatal wounds went around the ceramic plates is not at all suprising.
Australian Army would be appear to be having similar issues with the standard of equipment being supplied. Check out the link http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1541968.htm
very viable alternatives exist that could
have been put into service or aqcuired
commercially,i,e,off the shelf.the main
problem is a fundamental lack of under-
standing for ballistic protection or lack
of effective response.with politicians
in this country voting down the aqcuisition
of effective body armour,its amazing our
troops have even the protection they
presently have.now with the insurgents
actively shooting for weak spots in the
armours coverage its even more imperative
we put a flame under the collective butts
of our lawmakers to speed up the process
to procure better armour with more coverage.
No armour system today yesterday or tommorow will ever be perfect thier is always going to be vulnerable points and those points once found will always be exploited by the enemy its the nature of warefare.
I am 200% agreance that the military should have the top notch every thing all the time we should never have to see a fair fight, but you just cant know all and be prepared for everything its a calculation based on and with what the gov provides in funds (our military only gets like 4% that number should be alot more in my opinion especially since the Federal govs job is not super mamma for every tards ills and confort but to protect the people from foriegn powers interference which the military is key to). Their is alot of new cutting edge armour that could do better that is called adaptation we see weaknesses and plug them but it takes time and everyone must remember their are always weaknesses to expliot in everything its always a balancing act with many variables.
Financially, wouldn’t it be cheaper for the Pentagon to buy all the body armor (including the extensions) for all of our troops than to pay the military service life insurance? I keep hearing that our guys have been buying their own body armor.
Humanely, wouldn’t it be nice if the Pentagon did everything they could to keep our soldiers alive?
Publicity-wise, wouldn’t it be effective to minimize fatalities?
I think the taxpayers, including me, would be more than happy to keep our guys alive with the proper body armor and extensions.
we can only wear so much body armor! Of course if we cover our troops with ceramic plating they would be invincible, but they wouldn’t be able to move or breath, especially in 135 degree weather! I found the armor issued to me very effective, we should keep funding better armor materials however. Such as the liquid that turns rock hard when force is applied. But to blame lack of ceramic plating on our troops dying is moronic.
Actually, it makes sense for the pentagon NOT to do so…
Lets assume that a better body armor would have cost $5000 a copy more than the currentn body armor, and would have prevented 500 fatalities…
At a $100,000 life insurance policy, those fatalities cost $50M.
At 100,000 sets of improved body armor, those non-fatalities cost $500M.
So it makes sense, from a bean-counter viewpoint, not to give the troops the best.
But from a moral, and morale viewpoint, it makes more sense to cut an F22 and buy everyone the better body armor.
I can’t find the link at the moment, but SFTT has been advocating a body armor set that uses small articulated ceramic plates, giving a wraparound effect.
I can’t find the link for it however.
Nicholas seems to have the right of it… if the stuff works, and covers a number of vital areas, it makes complete sense that most of the fatalities would be in the few places the ceramic armor inserts don’t cover – by definition.
I’ll add that armoring areas like the sides etc. creates other problems – like difficulty rotating the torso, extra weight (for any additional inserts, but note that extra weight on the shoulders is especially tiring and would affect weapon performance), etc.
It’s always a compromise between protecting soliders while leaving them militarily effective. Until Starship Troopers armor comes out, you’ll be able to write stories like these forever. In future, a bit more context when writing those stories would be helpful.
This is a similar thing that happened to us Marines back in 1967. I had three different M16s
while in Nam. The best one would fire 80 rounds and lock up, even if it was squeaky clean. Didn’t matter if it was semi or fully auto. Many of our guys died while trying to eject a round with a cleaning rod. One day they will say, hell no we won’t go.
What did the author of this article want to imply?
Iraq is a literally hot zone, putting the soldier into an armor shell is impractical.
There’ll either be a protection with gaps or a useless soldier.
An of course, if body armor works where it covers the body, there’ll be exposed parts that get the most beating and mroe armor would reduce casualties – mathematically. Not necessarily in practise.
The “let’s attempt zero casualties” thinking is simply wrong if you go to war – mission is more important than lives. If you don’t intend to accept the losses, give another -or no- mission.
Low casualties first is a recipe for failure – you can expect to have low casualties for nothing, becuase you don’t accomplish the mission this way.
Nicholas Weaver
I think the body armour your thinking of is called Dragon Scale if you go over to http://www.defensereview.com/ and do a search for Dragon Scale you will find some details photos and a mess of links. And yeah it looks unbelievable think Sapi all around and even potential for more full body. They do good work over their good site. Although before anyone gets too exited about this new body armour remember its a new product and thier is always bugs to be found not to mention I think the main problem with this perticular product is ability to be mass constructed and of course expence not to mention what happens when it wears out making gaps and of course the pain must be something sereous?
And dont forget guys thier is always counter measures Le Mas makes a frangible bullet that is insane warfare potential Noah would sh*t himself over the humanity but this thing in 5.56 or other is chemically made to penetrate armour while disentigrating aka exploding on warm soft target meaning this baby can literally disentergrate a full size ham after going thru body armour or steel like butter. The military is flipin for good reason about how they cant penetrate doors and block, the lack of kill or knock down punch of the 5.56. This round would cure all real quick although the peace-love-&-happiness mentality jerk offs will stop its use untill and even maybe after its use by our enemy. We dont want to be considered scary barbarians who are extremely dangerous or anything http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/
Blended metal :: and thier is even more info in last the year priors shootout. This thing is bad talkin minor extremity wound would be fatal by bleeding to death. Awesome, War should be ugle should be brutal should be gremsome for two reasons to 1) give US all advantages we can get to ease victory lessen suffering on OUR side 2) to make our enemy absolutley horrified at the prospect of war with the Big Satan (I dont care if they love US as long as they fear US enough to deter is fine with me) also it would keep the military the last resort option it is by our polititions, sanitized war just makes the war option way too easy for our politicians.
Someone with the AP actually went out into the field and asked the soldiers about this, and wrote the following article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-5531102,00.html
I think that’s the basis for the “80%”; accurate (given how it was computed) but disguising what it’s saying — of those shot in the upper torso where they were not protected by armor, 80% died. Doesn’t say anything about how many that was; it could be that five had the described wound, and four died.
The number of troops who are now going to be targeted in those areas will go up, I’ll predict, and I am only surprized that there was no graphic showing the protected areas.
“Ya just cant get anymore left wing anti-american then that.”
Those damn left-wing anti-Americans in the Pentagon. How dare they not support our troops.
In response to the first post…
It cant be Left Wing because the GOP has majority in both congress and senate…
The liberal democrats do not have say in our current goverment…
Good Morning Murc,
On Lou Dobbd I agree, he asked General David Grange the question in such a manner that he could give an evasive answer but yet still be factualy correct.
The problem is that Lou Dobbs knew the answer regarding the foreign manufacture of body armor, it can be found by anyone who cares to look in the DoD Daily Contracts. At the time the story line of the Lou Dobbs Show was “Contracting out America”.
I will disagree with you thought on the Liberal/Conservative bias of the Media. All of the Media outlets drink from the same news pool and that is supplied by the Federal Government.
The Bush White House has effectivly controled the Media since day one. If anyone takes time to notice all the news from Iraq is comming from talking heads standing in a secured area. The background video is the same canned items on all the outlets.
How many times do we need to see the tattoed right arm or a Marine Machine Gunner from the first fight for Fallugah in the Spring of 2004?
All the Media is marching to the beat of the Bush White House, including Lou Dobbs.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Byron Skinner???
Ahhhhh…yeeeeeeeaaah, The Bush administration controlls the media, and tells them to constantly bash him and everything he does.
paaa-leaze. *rolls eyes*
Skinner, I never thought I’d see the day you turned troll.
Yeah, and they soldiers on D-Day died because they were deployed to close to the Nazis… If we gave each soldier his own M1 tank then we wouldn’t have any casualties. How could the administration been so negligent as to go to war without a plan to equip each soldier with his own tank! Impeach! Impeach! Impeach! Gimme a break.
If you want invulnerable armor you’ll wind up with individual pillboxes.
This reminds me a bit of the media-created hysteria that gripped the nation upon the discovery that anti-tank weapons could knock out Bradleys.
From my experience in Nam, and those of some of my fellow Marines and Fleet Marine Corpsmen, I doubt that any body armor we could make will be that effective against 7.65×39 or 7.62×54 or our own 7.62×52 at close range or less than a hundred yards. When the fire fight starts, a Marine’s best option is to move fast for cover and return fire. If he is clad like an old Knight, he can’t move that fast thus leaving him open to fire longer. Remember the Long Bow had a hugely detrimental effect on the armor of the 15 century, and the good old .308 full metal jacket is an awfully hard round to stop. The 5.56 (just a way to make the lousy .223 sound better) is much more suseptible to being stopped by armor than any of the .308 or 30.06 or even .303 of days gone by. there is a good reason that we used M1 Garands, accurized, in Nam and the Seals and those needing killing and penetration power still use the great old fine weapon I loved, the 7.62 (.308) M14. Not only had we longer range but superior killing power even at long range. Heavy, yes, but far more dependable. And remember, even though it is not as accurate as the 14, the AK fires a 7.62×39 (.308) on automatic and the SKS is the same round with much more accuracy at semi-auto. Then there is the 7.62×54, the old Russian Nagant from the 30′s, AWESOME!!!! It sure made believers of the Nazis.
Remember a third of all fatalities (or was it a quarter?) come from head and neck shots.
With regards to body armor: perhaps we should put the side armor into inventory, and allow troops to choose between dehydration and possible death.
The exchange in Black Hawk Down where the guy removes his rear plate, believing that he wouldn’t get shot in the back comes to mind.
Next up on the list is personal shields. Why can we not go to war without forcefields? :P
If the Body Armor is flawed then force the manufacturer to replace it as specified in their lucrative contract.
There is NO EXCUSE for Marines and Sailors to be deployed with faulty body armor that our enemies will take advantage of this situation.
How many more service personnel will die because of NO BODY ARMOR, DEFECTIVE CERAMIC PALTES, or FAULTY BODY ARMOR?
How many more body bags will it take before something is done about the Body Armor Problems?
Could of used body armour in the nam; but i guess they didn”t think about it back then; huh;
“Next up on the list is personal shields. Why can we not go to war without forcefields? :P”
Because the technology’s not there yet. When it is, I suspect we will.
_Of course_ armor is a tradeoff between mobility and protection, but if you can improve the current armor so that it doesn’t impede mobility too much, but does substantially reduce fatalities, then you should do it.
War teaches many lessons about what works and what doesn’t, what could be improved and what couldn’t. Let’s take advantage of that.
As a trained sniper , they teach head shots. No amount of armor will protect from that
What the hell is going on with our government? Our troops aren’t getting the supplies and gear they need to survive. I was in the Gulf War in 90-91 and we were poorly supplied and fifn’t get the necessary things that would have helped us out. Now all these years later and the way our technoligy has grown, wouldn’t be safe to assume that they have invented better things to help keep our men and women in the service safe? Why should George W. Bush care? If he and the government actually spent the money on our troops, that means he wouldn’t get that extra week of vacation, FEMA wouldn’t get that extra clothing allowance to buy new suits instead of helping hurricane/flood victims and it would mean Dick Cheney would actually have to let companies legally bid for jobs to rebuild Iraq instead of giving them to his former company. With his latest insult to our troops, illegal wire tapping, Enron, DeLay and other things are governmet is supposed to monitor to make sure it’s citizens are not hurt, just what the hell are they doing?
Our government needs to come up with something better… I know it’s a lot better than what I had in Iraq (I was issued a regular old flak jacket) but it is not enough, many fatalities could have prevented if the plates covered certain areas, we need to fix that now!!!
Why do I see political commentary about this article? Might it be because there are those of you out there that just do not care about the current administration? Wy not stick to the point and get our guys some help? How abot asking the war fighters what they think, who are actually on the ground. I would love to hear what they have to say. For those of you who have been over there, I guess hind-sight is 20/20.
It appears that this old axiom continues to raise its ugly head. All we need are wars to prove it:
“Nothing’s too good for aour boys in the service, so give them nothing”.
There is a concept called the law of diminishing returns. Basically, what it means is that getting double the protection does not necessarily mean it will only cost double the price. Unfortunately, armor like most everything else follows this rule. The Interceptor OTV is kevlar, designed to stop everything up to a 9mm fired out of a submachine gun, or NIJ 3A. The cermaic SAPI plate in the front and back is usually single curve, the cheaper and easier to produced type compared to triple curved. The SAPI plate is somewhere above NIJ level 3 protection, which means it stops 6 SPACED impacts 1 inch from the edge of: 7.62x51mm, 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm, 5.45x39mm, and 12ga slugs.
Ceramic, while lighter than steel plates must be twice as thick to be effective as steel. It is a extremely hard material… but it’s also extremely brittle. SAPI plates are covered in kevlar first, to keep it together instead of shattering like a dinner plate on first impact as well as to prevent spalling and reduce backface deformation. After the kevlar covering it’s covered in, of all things, bubble wrap to protect against impacts such as diving to the ground to avoid getting shot or hit with frag. And to keep it all together, there is a water proof plastic covering over it all. Ceramic is uncomfortable to wear, is extremely bulky, and adds tiring weight to any armor system it’s added to. So sacrificing absolute invulnerability for the ability to MOVE, most wisely stick with vital organ plates over the chest and back.
Now, the whole OTV and SAPI package weighs in at a good 10-12 pounds, if I remember correctly. And since kevlar is weakened by exposure to moisture, it’s sealed in watertight fabric. Now, you have this big, heavy, bulky vest covering your entire torso and it’s over a hundred degress and your running and gunning. Your body is not forced to cool itself just through your arms, legs and head. Under the armor it’s a sauna, your clothing litterally soaked through with your own sweat in the shape of your armor. Like a bucket of water hit you and managed only to wet you in the shape of the vest.
Now that’s just the armor. Imagine extending that sort of stifling armor over your entire body in 100 degree weather. Sure, the bullets won’t get you but the heat stroke will as your core temperature spikes.
Now, I have heard of dragonscale, and it has been used in Iraq by private military contractors at least once with marvelous success. Reportedly it stopped a 7.62x54r mm round to the back and side so well that the operator didn’t feel it. Admittedly, if he were wearing and Interceptor with a SAPI, the round would have completely bypassed the SAPI, penetrated the kevlar, and let the armor piercing, incendiary round burrow into his flesh. However the armor, SOV-2000 is incredibly cost-prohibitive when you are looking to armor hundreds of thousands of Marines and soldiers. Compare the government cost for an Interceptor with a pair of SAPI plates weighing about 12 pounds at a less than $1000 for a system that costs well over $5000 for the ceramic composite armor that weighs 17 pounds.
I’m all for better gear, but sometimes you’re stuck with a budget. And if it means armoring all my Marines and soldiers with good gear or armoring only some with cutting edge gear, I’ll stick with protecting all my troops.
As a former Marine, I know the effectivness of our past flac and current kevlar body armor, with multiple non-offical field tests. For the first part Flac or the body armor that has been used for the past 10-20 years is not designed to stop any types of rounds. It was only designed to stop light shrapnel like had grenade fragments at about 3-5 yards and mortar fragments. Marines are well versed in its limitations. A Marine would consider himself lucky if at about 40 yards Flac would stop a 9mm round from a pistol. With the Kevlar bucket it was quite more effective than the vest because it was designed to be. Effective against most pistols at about 10 Meters but not very effective against Rifle rounds inside 200 yards besides its ablility to deflect indirect shots. We were told that at the time we first wore this equipment.
As for the new body armor it is much more resiliant than flac againts fragments and Pistol rounds (Sub Machine rounds to some effect also) but it is not designed to be completely round proof, and if you acctually do the research you will see the effects that flac had to our casualty fault seince vietnam, Cutting Fragmentation deaths by about 50% probably more by now.
With my time in the field and working with the equipment I know that Marines are told that this equipment will make your chances better, however it is not Bullet Proof. To make Marines wear bullet proof vest with heavy armor plates (making them almost rifle proofin the area the vest coverd) would only be putting the nail in the coffin. Marines are a fast hard charging high speed low drag attack force to slow them down with so much would be very detrimental to their mission, Lifespan and effectiveness.
Maybe down the road the exo-skelton program or armor weight will be effictive enought to make our marines bullet proof but untill then, we will just have to be faster, smarter and meaner than our enemy who is trying to kill us.
Why dont we just bomb them into the stone age? Then there will be no one to shoot at our troops? If are there to fight, then lets win this and bring all of our fire power to bear on the enemy. Then rebuild from scratch just like we did in wwII.
Yes the plates only protect portions of our upper bodies but as other people have stated, its a weight to movement sistuation. We could cover a Marine/solider with armor from head to toe, but then he would not be able to move and therefore combat ineffictive. We all know the risks involved with being overseas and accept them.
I did 2 tours in Iraq, and anyone stating or using the phrase “cost prohibitive” in conjunction with outfitting our fighting men with the best body armor available doesn’t deserve to enjoy the freedoms these brave men have bestowed upon us all. The wealthiest nation in the world has no problem footing the bill for such things, this country completely mobilized for WW2, but now too many want to make a half hearted effort… especially when it comes to their pocketbook.
“We could cover a Marine/solider with armor from head to toe, but then he would not be able to move and therefore combat ineffictive. We all know the risks involved with being overseas and accept them.”
Nobody’s talking about a return to the high medieval period, with suits of plate armor. What is being suggested is an expansion of the chest plates to cover more of the torso. Would it really stop a marine from moving if the chest plate was 20%/33%/50% bigger?
The SAPI plates are heavy enough as is. Anyone that spends time in them relizes that the extra weight (and size) of the extra body armor reduces the Marines abilty to move, making it an additional hazord. Take a poll of the troops and you will find that they are happy with the existing armor and would not want to add any more on top of it!!!
I want ALL Marines on the front lines to send me their comments, criticisms and ideas in good faith and confidence. I want only information and “The Word” directly from our Marines that are deployed or returning from deployment. I want the front line FACTS without all the bullshit.
If our Marines need something, I will make damn sure that they get it.
It is a federal offense to interfere with ANY mission of ANY Marine in combat. If I find ANYONE that is preventing our Marines from doing their duty, we will have their ass in a sling!
Write me in good faith at:USMC0351Grunt@yahoo.com
Your names will be held annonymous if requested.
Semper Fi my brothers!
Gregory Romeu
with 2nd bn, 1st mar div., we were not even given sapi plates until about 2 weeks into the war, not even non-nco’s, and we were among the first into the country! when we were finally given them, we anly recieved enough for half of our guys, or for everyone to just put one in the front of the vest! so that is the extent of armor protection we continued with for another 3 weeks.
Full body armor would be nice but very impractical. If you can’t move effectively, you will probably get killed anyway. I was in Vietnam in the mid-60s and we wore the ‘flack jacket’ body armor woth plates in the front and back with padding on the sides and shoulders. I took a shoulder hit that was not where a plate was. The padding took a lot of the iron and I got the spill over and some came through. Without the padding I would have lost everything from the shoulder on down. Forty years later I still have scars, but use of most of my arm.
Copy Write by ABC on line Jan. 10, 2006 Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton called the Bush administration “incompetent” when it came to protecting the troops in combat and called the lack of adequate body armor for soldiers and Marines “unforgivable.”
So far in Iraq, more than 2,100 American troops have been killed. Critics like Clinton, D-N.Y., say that many of these deaths are the result of inadequate body armor. A secret Pentagon study of 93 Marines who were killed in Iraq found that 74 died after they were hit by a bullet or shrapnel in the torso or shoulders areas unprotected by the armor most are issued.
It must be comforting and convenient for a person who had eight years of constant 24/7 protection from paid government bodyguards to be incensed by lack of protection for our troops. In harms way means just that, as every combat veteran knows, you can’t lock them in a steel cubicle and expect them to be safe. You are completely wrong, or an obvious opportunistic politician keening for votes. I’m an independent beyond your Democratic, or the Republican self-serving manipulation. And…for your education, in military matters, full body armor DOES NOT protect you against high velocity projectiles in ALL cases and, in some cases, explosives. Witness the LA police bringing down two fully armored-protected individuals after an aborted bank robbery. Senator Clinton, I believe you have been seeing too many SWAT thriller movies. And IF the troops you are so concerned for would wear FULL body armor they would collapse from heat exhaustion or heat stroke. NO ONE wore armored panties in Vietnam for the same reasons. Stick to politicking for your political objectives and leave the military to tactical decisions.
This article only focuses on half of the story. It focuses on the soldiers who were killed while wearing body armor, and uses that to determine the effectiveness of the armor. What about the soldiers who, while wearing the armor, were struck by bullets or shrapnel and survived unhurt? Add those into the equation, and you get a whole different, and much more truthful, story. But then, the story came from the New York Times, so why should I expect the whole truth?
As a member of the “gun club” now practicing in the civilian word, yes I would want the best protection that I can get, but that does not severly limit my ability to do my job. If body armor prevents me from being able to move efficiently, then it is not critical.
Unfortunately, now how much protective gear you get there is always a vulnerablility that can be exploited. And any good warrior will seek to use that vulnerability to his advantage. That is how we conduct the training of our fighter today. Look for the weakest point and exploit it to your advantage.
So give the best gear that we can give out to those who need it. But realize that no matter what we do, ultimatley, we can not 100% guarantee that everyone we send over walks back off the plane. Some of our best wont. The ones who are out there accept that fact everyday they serve. Whether it is out in front or back at home. It is part of the oath that all service members take before entering into service.
We will always miss those who are lost. We will work to mitigate the risks to those who fight. But we must place the combat effectiveness of each and every warrior in the forefront of our minds when we try and protect them when in harms way.
An armored knight looks great, but he would be totally ineffective because he just wouldn’t be able to move around fast enough to even save himself.
I read articles like this all the time about what we should or shouldnt have and then the costs to build or replace. The bottom line is we spend millions of dollars on r&d (research and development). Yet we cant make a high speed vest with kevlar or someother materials combined. Instead they want to spend the money on how to make better bombs and ships. The reality is the foot solider is ultimately going to get the job done. I was corporal in 1/7 usmc. I would want a vest that can stop an ak round and some shrapnel. Every warrior needs the best body armor available from the samuari to the spartans to todays infantry man. Basically what I’m saying is throw down the cash and spend it on something that will save more lives then take them.
I was an 0311(grunt) in iraq in the summer of 2005. Yes body armor is great but frankly we don’t need more of it on our grunts. It’s already difficult to move with all the gear we have to wear already. There are better designs however than what the Marine Corps uses and many grunts that are over there if their commands allow them buy better variants to the interceptor vests. It’s a dangerous job and throwing more gear aka armor on the infantry marine who is walking around in the heat for atleast 4 hours on an average patrols is not helping that marine.
You can wrap these men in armour until they are unable to either fight or run and sadly some will die.I am a former Marine,in context,I quote a 1st Lt in the 101st Airborne.”I would wear less armour,if regs permitted,I could move and fight better”.I am sure a lot of Marines share the words of a Army Brother at Arms.
Leadership, Good training, experiance, lots of ammo and guns with the willingness to use them, and the ability of a command to change in the field to ever changing situations. Will save lives not dressing up like a F- ing sand turtle
Do not get me wrong protective gear is good but we have surpassed common sense. What would happen if we had to do iland invastions like WWII where your sinking in vocanitc ash.
Semper Fi
this is the same argument thats been going around since Vietnam. P + F = k (constant)
Protection plus Freedom of motion is a constant. Basically, you have protection, then your freedom of motion and speed is decreased. More freedom of motion means less protection. If gov’t think tanks had their way, troops would be covered in SAPI plates. Unfortunately they would only be able to crawl around under all the weight.
(Read “The Things They Carried” for more info on Vietnam era protection issues)
Body armor is great when you need it, but even with Kevlar, Flak jacket,two SAPI plates, rifle etc, a man gets weighed down. It’s funny though, they say that the reason soldiers are getting injured is that the armor doesn’t cover enough area. This is a good thing. That means that the armor is doing its job: saving lives. Not to sound heartless, but having your arm or leg blown off versus taking shrapnel to the heart/lung/intestines is not such a bad thing. Anyone remember the stories (or saw it in person) where some guy got shot in the gut and watched his guts fall out? Not such a problem when you’ve got armor on.
I’m a former 0311 and a current police/SWAT officer. I think the main problem is the typical problem with big government, they have to bid out contracts and usually don’t get the best overall product. Pinnacle body armour has a level III vest (SOV-2000) that would be the best of both worlds (protection/comfort,manuverability) for grunts but it’s 5K per vest. Its alot cheaper to stick a steel plate that can only take a few hits before it gives out, in a carrier. I know what carrying alot of gear can do to you, but I would personally add 17-18 lbs fighting in cities like in Iraq.
Will wrote about the North Hollywood shoot out and the Two A-Holes with all of the body armor. Those guys could not move worth a damn and had the fire power to keep officers away.
As soon and The officers got the rifles from B and B guns. The problem was over. The Armor stopped 9mm rounds yes but how many of our enemies are waging war w/9mm handguns?
It’s apples and oranges. I think what they have is doing a decent job. Going back to the middle ages, even children learned to find the chinks in armor.
Sgt DeRoche is about cracked the hell out. I don’t know where he’s been, or if he’s admin or what – but good training and command isn’t going to save you from a Hadji sniper with a 7.62 armour piercing round. Especially about the time he takes aim at your shoulders or your lower torso. Don’t get me wrong, being able to keep on your toes always helps. But not from somebody trying to lay you out 500+m away. Better armour is in order.
We could fully armor every Marine and offer them the best protection possible by issuing each and every one their own personal M1 Abrams Tank.
I don’t mean to make light of the situation and I know that it smacks of sarcasm but taking examples to the extremes often serves to highlight the problem and make it easier to understand. So humor me and play along for a couple of minutes. Why don’t we issue each Marine his own person M1 Tank?
Mobility – There are many required functions you can’t perform from inside a tank so to their jobs it will be necessary to leave the confines of the tank. Now apply that logic to body armor, the heavier and bulkier you make it the more functions you will be required to remove your body armor to accomplish. So now we reach a decision threshold, which is better, body armor that offers less protection that allows you to perform all required tasks while wearing it or body armor that provides better protection but sometimes has to be removed to perform certain tasks at those times providing no protection?
Weight – Just like we wouldn’t be able transport them if each Marine were issued his own tank, at some point (at a much lower weight than most people realize) body armor weight impacts our ability to transport Marines to the battlefield. The weight that can be carried by the Marine’s main transport helicopter the CH-46 Sea Knight is finite. Just because you can fit something onto it doesn’t mean you can lift it off the ground. These helicopters often operate near max gross weight, you add 10-15 lbs of weight to each grunts load and you have to make up that weight somewhere else. Do you carry less fuel decreasing the distance you can travel? Do you carry less ammunition for the aircraft weapons systems putting everyone aboard the aircraft at greater risk? No the reality is your payload continuously gets smaller, now you can carry one less grunt per load, then with the next itteration of additional protection and more weight two less grunts, etc.
Cost – Here is the one everyone would like to pretend doesn’t matter or factor in but the cold, hard fact is that it does. Just as it wouldn’t be cost effective to issue each and every Marine a tank for personal protection at some point it isn’t cost effective to improve body armor. If we took the current tanks in the inventory (because we have all the tanks we can afford) and said ok we have tanks, they keep you safe so only Marines with tanks can be forward deployed, we have now limited the number of Marines we can put into battle. Now lets look at our armor systems and apply the tank logic. If we develop personal armor systems that are so expensive we can only afford to equip a fraction of our force which is better, cheaper, less effective armor that I can afford to provide to each and every Marine or armor that is so expensive that I can only equip a single rifle company?
None of this means we shouldn’t continue to research, fund and develop improved armor that is lighter, stronger and allows more mobility, but we also have to realize that everything at some point is a compromise and not play to politicians that spend their time trying to create issues to use against one another. Just because some other form of protection is available that increases performance on one end of the spectrum it doesn’t mean that it is the best solution because it is probably lacking in some other area of consideration. It is the job of Marine Corps Systems Command to decide which equipment will be procured they have to find that bubble where protection, mobility and cost are all given the correct amount of consideration. Don’t buy into soundbites from politicians. The Marines at Marine Corps Systems Command who are involved in developing, testing and procuring equipment want the Marines in the field to have exactly what they need to accomplish their mission.
Kevin Winters
GySgt USMC (Ret.)
“We could fully armor every Marine and offer them the best protection possible by issuing each and every one their own personal M1 Abrams Tank.
I don’t mean to make light of the situation and I know that it smacks of sarcasm but taking examples to the extremes often serves to highlight the problem and make it easier to understand. ”
And sometimes taking the example to extremes serves to obscure the argument entirely. Would increasing the size of the plates to increase coverage of the torso really be equivalent to giving every Marine an M1 Abrams?
Please. Unless you think that the armor is absolutely perfect the way it is and that fighting in Iraq has taught us nothing about our equipment, there’s a perfectly reasonable discussion to be had about its various components. That discussion has–unfortunately–not happened in these comments.
As a former Marine and parent of a current Marine I agree we need we need to improve the armor. The solution is not just larger plates using the same technology. Our folks need lighter armor that provides the desired coverage. Years ago our science advisor would call me evert week with a new piece of technology that “Only weighed” 5 pounds. I finally asked him after 4 such gadgets what did he want me to leave home so I could carry the load, water, ammor, food, or sleeping gear? Weight and overall mobility for dismounted infantry is critical.
Better armor is the way to go but, there are better ways then using heavy duty “metals” that weigh you down. There are alternatives out there in this world that can be used that are just as effective and cheaper than what our government pays today. Unfortunitly our government doesn’t go shopping like it has a welfare budget, it shops like a “cheaper Bill Gates.”" Its not the most expensive but its second on the list lets get it!” For an example of one of those alternatives, everyone knows what corningware is but does everyone know that during the cold war before the design for corningware changed was used as the nose cone for nuclear weapons. Now if a dish that we use to cook mom’s favorite meal in is strong enough to withstand the pressures of what a nuclear weapon goes through there is something there. Not to mention that the heat tiles on this countries beloved space shuttles are made of the same material…..America think about it.
Check this link:
http://www.hk94.com/hk/index.php?s=&showtopic=17944&view=findpost&p=171559
Soldier currently deployed in Afghanistan says his unit has had these plates for awhile and they have opted to not even use them; they hinder mobility too much.
Let’s not get too excited about manufacturing a lot of these plates. If our men can’t move around in this stuff, and are going to refuse to wear them, it’s a waste of money.
The FLAKs need to be lighter, b/c with all the ammo and camelbak full of water is heavy enuff to wear whenever we go on 24hr operations it gets a little heavy on the shoulders and during the blazing summers over here its not too cool and whenever the gov gets the crazy idea to add more body armor, the marines are just gonna proudly accept their “charge sheets”
It was my experience that many, if not most troops, didn’t use the groin protecter and that some would even forego the current SAPI plates. The soldiers don’t need more and more weight. I’ve seen the weight on the current SAPI plate listed as 4 pounds each. That must be for the small size because my XL size plates were a lot heavier than that.
Check out body armor called “Dragon Skin” made by Pinnacle Armor Inc. Also go to defencereview.com for info on it. Says that it will stop an AK-47 round in its tracks. Secret Service uses it.
When we think of more armor we need to remember the Battle of Crecy on 26 August 1346 when 20,000 to 40,000 French attacked 12,000 English.
The heavily armored French knights lost between 6,000 to 20,000 slaughter as they lay in the mud incapacated by their heavy armor.
The English lighly armored/no armor lost 150-1,000 KIA.
The following (Below my comments) was posted on your page and I cannot even find such a web site (defensereview.com). It is ‘for sale’.
Our men and women should have the best defense and the best equiptment that is available. We give money to everything else don’t we, including countries that don’t even like us.>
“Check out body armor called “Dragon Skin” made by Pinnacle Armor Inc. Also go to defencereview.com for info on it. Says that it will stop an AK-47 round in its tracks. Secret Service uses it.”
Posted by: PD at January 12, 2006 10:36 AM
“When we think of more armor we need to remember the Battle of Crecy on 26 August 1346 when 20,000 to 40,000 French attacked 12,000 English.
The heavily armored French knights lost between 6,000 to 20,000 slaughter as they lay in the mud incapacated by their heavy armor.
The English lighly armored/no armor lost 150-1,000 KIA.”
The next time I am in Crecy being attacked by English longbowmen, I will keep your comment in mind.
Isnt this more of a question of having a tool at ones use rather than a debate between cost/protection/movement? I’ve had several friends and family memeber “over there” throughout my life, I’ve heard the stories and as the generations progressed from my grandfather going to war with nothing but a cotton shirt on to my uncle serving in desert storm and bosnia to two of my best friends fighting in Iraq there has been one fundemental change in their stories, the amount of friends they have lost. All of them site the body armor we now have available as a reason so many have been spared. sure this means that head shots are becoming a more viable target but it is also a much smaller target area. The side plates are a bonus, IF the soldier has the choice to use the item or not. Patrols, and transport missions, where mobility is vital, a certain degree of protection could be left at base, but in home searches and foot patrols, would not the option to have that extra protection be a bonus? Before the soldier had no choice because none was provided. Isn’t that the whole point. I think the real problem will be if the side plates are made a mandatory regulation.
The Government doesn’t care enough about the soldiers/Marines to provide additional funding required to save lives….They want to get the job done at the LEAST cost to them…if it mean risking their lives “oh well..there’s more of them and they’ll just keep recruiting them”
With the technology we have today our Men and Women in the Military should be wearing fully armored suits that are next to impenetrable.
They exist…Our Soldier’s Lives just aren’t worth the COST in the Govn’t's eyes.
I mean common man when are people going to wake up! I see people posting names of manufacturer’s on here….you really think THE U.S. Govn’t needs advice on where to go for better armor?? LOL
It’s the GOVERNMENT for Christ sake! They’re just cheap!
For as much of the ‘Politically Correct’ B.S. that the Government releases pertaining to ‘Condolences and Prayers for the Soldiers and Families’….ALL military personnel are expendable and just there to further an agenda far beyond what they are told and TOTALLY unrelated to FREEDOM OR DEMOCRACY. In a democratic nation, the president is chosen by the people, not cheated in by family members in Florida or Ohio.
Point is…it’s the Soldier’s that deserve the respect for laying their lives on the line for what I believe are TRUE and HONORABLE intentions, unlike the intentions the Govn’t has by placing them in Iraq or any other land for that matter.
The VERY LEAST the Govn’t could do is Protect their lives to the best of their ability. But the Soldiers won’t even get that Respect.
President Bush once said that Saddam Hussein did NOT cause 9/11/ So why are we talking about armor when our troops shouldn’t even be in Iraq? Bush aslo said that he doesn’t think about Bin Laden to much. That issue doesn’t take much of his time, he said. Hopeless. Robert Burnett
I love the full body armor suit comment…thats a thing of beauty. I already have to hump around 100lbs. of gear and a weapon and my own body weight…lets be brilliant and add another 100lbs. to that. Sure, I wont die from a bullet, but an rpg, ied, or hey lets be real, heat exhaustion will sure as hell get me then. Heres a thought, dont want to get shot at or shot, continue whining on Internet posts and…DONT JOIN THE CORPS OR THE ARMY!
yea most of us dont care about the war. its our job to fight it whether we believe in it or not. its our profession. with the body armor your screwed if you do wear it and your screwed if you dont. the government does what they do as best as they can. they ask us all the time what we need. i aint no officer i aint no staff sgt. they ask we tell em. you all need to remember there is no cure for a bullet to the head. the enemy i fight isnt retarded in anyway shape or form he knows where to hit, because he studies us and our equipment as much as we study him. theres always a consequence to every action so stop complaining im tired of hearing it nothings ever perfect
cpl
usmc
I work for a police department – and the question just isn’t how many cops could we save if we made the armor bigger. . . it’s how many cops are saved by the armor that they have and wear. Too much armor that amounted to too much weight would become something that people just didn’t want to wear.
If you think that additional body armor is the answer, take two 100 lb bags of concrete, strap them to your chest and then put on a raincoat and run a mile in 100+ degree heat. In combat, everything (I say again for you slow learning liberals and white flag Democrats), everything is a trade-off. For every thing you get you give up something else. Increased safety versus decreased mobility, greater discomfort and potential life threatening heat stroke. Its know as the “Law of Retroprocity.”
I know what I’m talking about. I served as an infantry platoon commander in Viet Nam and later a whole lot of time training at Twenty Nine Palms.
My graduate level courses in Public Administration tuaght me that there are no simple solutions only alternatives. The operative definition for “solution” is the answere to one problem that in and of itself does not create any other problems.
Finally, I rather doubt that the people doing and touting these studies have ever deemed it necessary to put themselves at risk to test their theories.
First of all the thought of more armor is nice, but honestly who in the hell wants to put more gear on just to have less mobility and higher levels of fatigue? All of these liberals think that we need help getting more effective gear, and better up-armored vehicles. Why don’t they think of a better solution than trying to keep us over there longer. This may be a war we were thrown into, but not a war we should be fighting. Embracing a democratic society in a country that believes in dictatorship is not only wasting our time and money, but it’s also costing our troops there lives. Don’t get me wrong I have my fellow marines backs any time of the day. All I can think about is coming home everyday I’m over there. If you haven’t been to Iraq or any middle eastern country take a vacation there with your family. See what we see everyday trying to defend your freedom. Everybody needs to stop worrying about themselves and dedicate some time and money to the troops that are supporting you right to be free. We don’t ask for much except some respect. When the military requests problems to be fixed, fix them with no questions asked. We’re the ones fighting the war not you politicians or civilians. You have no idea how to fix it because your not getting shot at everyday, as you live your comfortable lives day to day. Just shut your mouths and listen to the experts when the make suggestions. We’re the ones that know this the best, because we are on the job 365 days a year 24 hours a day. Thanks for you time, and if you want to discuss this email me at jameszipperer@hotmail.com
Perhaps this has already been addressed but I’m not sure what we’re supposed to get from the 80% fatality statistic. No matter what the level of body armor if we’re talking about fatalities to the upper torso, if you die of such a wound isn’t there a high probability that whatever level of armor you had it wasn’t enough and you could have survived if you had more? Obviously the total number of fatalities would differ depending on the level of body armor but it’s not clear to me that the 80% statistic would change significantly even with an increase in body armor.
Too the poster below re armor for the legs, being able to run in them with no loss of mobility…was this with the rest of the gear a standard Marine carries? I wouldn’t know myself but it’s not that any particular piece of armor is too heavy but 2 lbs. here, 15 lbs. there it all adds up when you also have to carry the standard gear that Marines/soldiers were expected to carry when they didn’t have any body armor at all.
During my first deployment I was issued only one sapi plate. And just my luck it was a medium. Now that would have been fine with me, but I was wearing a small flak jacket. And if you have ever had this problem, you know that the only place you can put a MED plate in a small vest is the back. My OIC said, “at least you got one”
I have has issued both the new Point Blank vest and the old flack jacket and the Point Blank vest is vastly superiour. The fact that the DOD now issues a vest to troops that is truely BULLET PROOF should not be over look. Right now our Marines and soldiers and better protected in combat then at any time in the history of this country. Ask this question, how many more would we have buried from this war without the Interceptor vest?
This 80% statistic that is being thrown around is nothing more then liberal media trying to start controversy over a non issue.
Should we try to find a way to better protect our troops in the future, absolutely. But lets not forget that we should be thankful for the level of protection they have today.
Covering a soldier in ceramic plates would not make him/her invincible. It would just increase the number of rounds required to kill that soldier. (Remember, level 4 armor is designed to stop only one 30-06 steel-cored bullet. Beyond that, it is useless.) Covering someone in ceramic plates would be even worse, since a lack of mobility will make it easier to deliver that second shot.) I’m sure the LeMas blended metal bullets will give even the newest armors (including the vehicle armors) a run for its money.
yes,very interesting.thanks
“LeMas blended metal bullets…”
Are a joke… Do some real research and you’ll find out what I mean.
mass X velocity = energy
Let’s be realistic: the way to penetrate body armor is to put more energy across a smaller surface area. That means longer, narrower pointed bullets (read: rifle bullets and high velocity sabots) at higher velocities. If we’re going to start talking about materials, our goal should be a heavier projectile with a harder point, because more weight carries energy better. Once we’ve reached the pinnacle of technology there, it’s velocity, Velocity, VELOCITY. That formula can defeat any armor ever made.
As for the 80% figure, that’s the media for you. If every soldier had 360 degrees of 3″ steel plate, they could call it 99% better. I do not believe that we should cut the media any slack because they have not been vetted in combat and they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. I demand that they should stat giving combat vets who have communications degrees a decent chance at explaining this complicated stuff to the masses, who don’t really care anyway.
God, this crap frustrates me.
Anyone heard of Dragonskin? Well you should really look into it. I have been very excited as a marine to see this on the verge of possibly replacing the old armor system.
Anyone heard of Dragonskin? Well you should really look into it. I have been very excited as a marine to see this on the verge of possibly replacing the old armor system.
I would like to speak with Pat McGilton USMC Retired. Dick Rudlaff drudlaff@comcast.net
gentlemen. perhaps someone should get the man in charge to hop on over to delta command and see if they want to share any input. their chameleon suits that refract light around operatives through satellite uplink would certainly address the fatigue problem. i’ll have to agree with cpl H that no amount of training or expertise or years of experience can prepare you for an unexpected attack in an unexpected place. only esp or body armor can do that….
Paint some teflon on the tips of the rifle shells and watch how easily they cut through synthetic body armour. A little space age lube goes a long way.
Most Teflon paint requires heat to fully bake out and cure. It will still dry on the surface (tip) of the Full Metal Jacket. Once dry it will feed into the gun. Once fired it will cure the teflon paint and rip right through those synthetic polymers and especially Kevlar fabrics.
Dragon Armour meets the Dragon Speer Cartridge.
How about a synthetic Carbon graphite and Kevlar composite suit made rigid with high impact epoxy resins? Honey comb layers would give a thicker armour plate without lots of weight. The honey combs will also absorb some of the impact force as well. The same technigue is applied in the aerospace industry with aeroframes and wing panels.
We have created plates that are extrememly light weight and bullet proof to most small caliber rifles (5.56 to 7.62x51mm).
The Dragon Armour also does not protect the armpits. Any soldier entering a room and finding himself shot from the side may find that bullet traveling through the armpit, or down the arm into the chest cavity.
First, Teflon has no effect at all on armor, the old KTW rounds (read as
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