No matter how many times soldiers and marines say they’re not interested, there’s always someone trying to wrap them up in heavier, hotter, more uncomfortable armor.
Reader AS points to the latest culprit: MTek Weapon Systems, which is pushing Stormtrooper-esque “facial armor” for our troops.
The mask weighs 1.3 pounds, is compatible with ballistic eyewear, and will stop a bullet from a .44 magnum. So far, there seems to be one marine corporal using the thing in Iraq. We’ll see if more emerge.
Facial Armor Rears Its Ugly Head
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{ 82 comments… read them below or add one }
Personally I am not sure why they are not covering the face with more armor. I know this 1.3lbs monster is not the solution, but even riot police wear more in the way of face covering. Thankfully I have seen recently the army is really working on eye covering which is a step in the right direction.
After watching the video of the mask being shot at 1 meter with a .44, I’m not convinced. If you look at the interior design of the mask, you can see that the mask is being shot in the thick armoured center, rather than on the thin, less armoured sides. Given that the mask is being marketed as protection against high speed fragmentation damage, shooting it directly in its most armoured location isn’t much of a real world test.
More importantly, how much does this particular piece of hardware reduce the individual soldier’s ability to communicate, both with his fellow soldiers and with the public?
I would like to see Hillary wear that thing for a whole day while walking the halls of congress. She might actually look better.
You wouldn’t want to walk around town or the base with that on, but if you are the point man breaking down the door to a house where you believe armed opponents could by waiting for you, or you were peeking around a corner in a gunfight, I would think that you would take any protection you could get.
This’ll be a hoot. The insurgents won’t pop a .44 magnum…more like a 7.62 WP or a 7.62R. I’m pretty sure both are assigned to a higher ballistic grade.
Do they have gorgets for the neck yet?
Argh, wish I could edit posts.
Anyhoo, the image up for this is “Generation I”, designed for the less mobile crew-served weapon operators. There’s a slightly smaller one called “Generation II” on their site.
Somehow I’m reminded of something else.
http://www.eris.net/~johan/gallery/london-amsterdam/dscn1124.jpg
Ah, think its a waste of time do you. try giving one to Bob Woodruff, Oh yeah to late. Maybe you’ll get takers of this thing if you just post “after” pictures of Bob Woodruff.
Nobody likes armor until they need it. Its a total waste of time until it prevents your ass from getting blown off. Or in this case, Your Head!!!
perianwyr, I too was thinking of Warhammer 40K.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen.
More armor is not the solution. The more we try to armor up the harder the insurgents are going to look for something that can defeat what we are wearing. Look at the midieval period, the more armor knights wore the harder somebody looked to find some way to beat it.
There reaches a point where armor becomes a bigger hinderance than a benefit. From my own experience, most troops think too much about gear and armor instead of learning their Warrior Tasks, which is the stuff that really matters in a fight.
Soldiers are not walking tanks. Humans are not invincible. Stop trying to make them so. What gives a human an advantage over equipment is mobility. Take advantage of that.
I think this would work for turret gunner’s on Ma Dueces, but cant see how a Saw/M240 gunners gonna be able to get a cheek weld to use the sights. Pretty good for anyone “interrogating” an IED. For general Infantry usage? I dont think it’ll be usefull.
to Charles, the 44 mag is very close to the 7.62×39 (actually .311″) at close range. similar sectional density with larger caliber and more muzzle energy.
.308-.311: 125 gr, 1552 ft lbs, 2365 fps MV
.429: 240 gr, 1650 ft lbs, 1770fps MV
both rounds are decent short range deer killers, with the 44 mag (actually .429″)being a little worse at long distances only because of its roundnose shape rather than the .311′s spitzer shape.
the advantage is that the 44 mag achieves it numbers from a MUCH shorter barrel. You can squeeze out another few hundred fps if fired from a carbine barrel.
The facial armor, combined with something for the neck would work best for the vehicle gunners, who are probably the first to get nailed by anything out there.
It will work best in enviroments where the operational tempo is shorter-for instance, a snatch and grab which isn’t projected to last more than a few hours under the hot Iraqi sun.
I wonder how one rehydrates with it. Probably have to flip the cover off. Also, does it impose strain on the neck by shifting the weight balance forward?
I think alot of people, including the military itself is missing the potential uses for this kind of thing. With the refocusing of our forces from fighting large scale wars down to an anti-insugency style force, having small units of fully armored troops for limited deployment use could be extremely effective if used properly. Instead of focusing so heavily on increasing the basic infantry armor which is obviously NOT wanted, focus instead on building a small, but highly specialized unit of heavily armored troopers that could be called upon for specific strike purposes. These troops could well be utilized as shock troops and be supported by regular troops with less armor and higher mobility. The current emphasis on over armoring our front line infantry is not going anywhere fast, the troops don’t want it and so it won’t last. But creating specialized units with heavy armor in mind could be exceptionally useful for offensive operations.
We could call them stormtroopers! Actually having a variance in the level of armour used by soldiers is a much better idea than the walking tank fantasy being pushed right now. I think the desire to up the armour level on foot troops largely stems from the political desire to stem the number of deaths in Iraq for PR reasons. No attempt is really being made to balance the need for protection and the performance of troops.
Look at the firm developing this product. They have two versions, a MK I & II, both which are basically rapid prototypes. Their one ballistics test involved shooting a .44 round at one meter into the most armoured part of their product, a test that tells me nothing about the effectiveness of this product. If dully developed it might be a good addition to the options available to gunners and other personnel who do not need to communicate verbally in areas of high vulnerability.
Interesting! Fantastic!
Hey, here’s an idea. Instead of putting money into additional armor, how about just not sending troops into ill advised and poorly planned adventures?
The whole point of this First generation bulky face cover is to protect exsposed gunners. For all who argue about mobility, and we should just throw this thing away are missing the point. A gunner on top of a HMMWV is exsposing the top of his shoulders and up. With that, just about 50% of what is being exsposed is the face.
At this stage, I believe it is a great peace of armor for Marines, and Soldiers serving crew served weapons were mobility is neil and communication is either via radio or not a number 1 issue, such as gunning anything fixed or a crew served weapon such as on the side of a hello or the top of a HMMWV or guntruck.
Uneeded armor… hah.. try and tell a Grunt not to wear his helmet or vest.
Hey how about just making a vehicle that you provide the protection need. Maybe, I don’t know, with a turrent to protect the whole gunner and not just his face. Duhh?? It would be cheaper in the long run to protect the whole body instead of just the face. Just more crap that they are pushing to make money. You guys just swallow it up.
Buli, im guessing you mean something like the XM101 common remote operated weapon station or (CROWS). But the point is we are debating this piece of gear here, the face protection. Intill we get the XM101, which we do not have right now, the face armor is good for its purpose.
Here is a site about the XM101 http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/m101-crows-image100.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m101-crows.htm
Throw that damn thing away. I am retired from the Army and even if you survive the round it will break your neck. Try stopiing a car at 35 mph with your face. Lets stop field testing this crap on soldiers to try to win contracts
Why are we always trying to re-invent the wheel or in this case armour? The old barrel helms of the middle ages are a better design if you want to try a full head helm and if properly shaped will keep the inpact from snapping the man’s neck as one of your other posters say. After all a lance tip with a couple thousand pounds of man horse and armour backing it packs a pretty sound punch too.
Actualy it will most likely save your life. The PASGT helmet has stoped plenty of bullets and saved many lifes. I have a friend who is in the Marines and was a gunner atop a Hmmwv intill he got sniped in the head. The bullet was stoped by his helmet and saved his life, he suffered a concusion and minor shrapnell that came off the inside of his helmet. It may not stop a car going 35mph, but it saved his life.
I agree with the commenter above that the XM101 Common Remote Operated Weapon Station(CROWS) is the better technological product. Isolating the human component to the interior of the vehicle seems much more intuitive than burdening the gunner with more equipment.
The problems that I see with the mask are the facts that the way the mask is designed would seem to channel debris towards your eyes from a frontal blast. The second problem I see is kinetics. The mask might be able to take a round, but can the human neck?
Yes, the human neck can take the pressure. Bullets are small, and while they carry a lot of energy, they don’t have the mass to break a man’s neck.
the mask looks like it could save lives, but only if it is developed correctly.
Just as all of you have stated before, the wiplash from a bullet hitting the mask probably has enough force to send a persons head flying backwards, causing damage to the neck, not neccessarily blowing off your head. Of cource, this all depends on what weapon is beign fired upon. I am certain lances aren’t being used against our soldiers in iraq, and I’m also certain these masks aren’t made out of primitive medival steel.
The masks are going to need to be designed to take and absorb the impact from the bullet’s force on your face. I’m guessing that is why they’re field testing this device, and seeing what materials to use in making the face-shield, what are the benifits to the armor, and what would be more comfortable for the soldier.
I am for the mask, just as anyone else would appreciate just a little more shielding against enemy fire. Up to what point though does the face shield start to decrease a soldiers ability to perform movements and communications while under fire (which is equally important) ???
If anyone finds that out, it would greatly determine my approval of the facial armor.
Have you ever tried to fight in 150 degree heat wearing 50 pounds of extra crap that somebody back home in the air conditioning thought you should wear? The soldiers are griping about the extra armor they have now, why not let them decide what they need. When I was there I preferred the ability to move out of harms way, and not having to worry about passing out from heat exhaustion. In some cases wrapping soldiers in kevlar shells puts them in more danger than if they had no armor at all. Don’t believe me? Put on a rainsuit, and a 50 pound backpack, then run laps in a sauna.
The heck with Storm Troopers, let’s get on with Terminators.
I believe this face mask is the best thing that could save lives so far. Think about it, an infantry soldier goes to peak arounj the side of a building…Suddnnly some crazy-ass Arab has an ak-47 pointed at his face and pulls the trigger…Wouldn’t you like to have that for protection? I’m sure the man who got his tooth shot off and nearly died would have liked to have that.
Moreover, I also believe that we should begin giving up armor to help in mobility. Have you ever looked at armor through out history? Ther’s more then less and more again then back to less… Medieval times: lots of armor…guys were getting bogged down and getting annialated. SO: less armor, civil war…less armor, turns out people wanted more armor: now a days. It always takes about sixty years to switch from a lot of armor to almost no armor and having speed.
Anyways…I believe our fellow American soldiers who are fighting for the right cause desrve this extra piece of protection…It’s the least we can do for them.
At least they have the balls to go there and fight for their country.
>I agree with the commenter above that the XM101 Common Remote Operated Weapon Station(CROWS) is >the better technological product. Isolating the human component to the interior of the vehicle
>seems much more intuitive than burdening the gunner with more equipment.
Somebody here doesn’t know how many are in Iraq today, how many to be produced, how many the Pentagon ordered, and how much time it takes to develop each. It’s a good choice, but it’s going to cost time to develop each. There are just too many vehicles to attach these CROWS on each, even those were to be only installed on vehicles operating in hostile areas. The CROWS has recently and finanly got to the stage of next generation. Improvements won’t be discussed here.
“These are not the droids we’re looking for…”
That thing is just asking for a creative paint job.
Seriously.
If we’re going to send our fighting folk to some godforsaken hell-hole to fight some fruitless ego-trip war for our neo-monarchical nihilistic President, the least we could do is let them have the right gear. And if they think this armor is the right gear, then give it to them I say.
I think that it adds to the intimdation factor. Who wants to mess with a stormtrooper. Beside, one of my LT. lost his eyesight. This may have deflected that one peice of frag that got him. To bad it doesn’t come with some balistic eye shielding.
Obviously, these guys have NOT read the manual re: “The Top 100 Things I’d Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord.”
Item #1: “My Legions of Terror will have helmets with clear plexiglass visors, not face-concealing ones.”
RTFM, guys, RTFM….
Seamus, you sound like a massive douchebag. Getting Saddam out of power was a good thing. There will not be another liberal/democrat in power for decades to come.
I still dont understand why people are still argueing over whether it will brake your neck or not. Obvoulsy if you look back and see how many bullets and lifes the PASGT helmelt has stoped and saved, without someones head snapping off, you would realize it would do about the same. A hellmet is higher on the head, thus a bullet hitting it has more leverage to snap your neck, a face mask lower on the neck has less, thus it it less likely to do so.
Terell, if you want to see a douchebag, you should just look in a mirror.
“There will not be another liberal/democrat in power for decades to come.” You’ll be eating those words in a couple of years.
Your a fool if you think Iraq and the World is better with saddam back in power.
Ok, all I have to say is that a face shield is a great idea. BUT I don’t think it’s very prectical at this point. At least, not at this point. Not until they improve the design. Its too bulky and reduces your field of view. So bottom line is: Good idea. but not ready yet
also a good point,
the uniformed, “storm-trooper-esque” appearance our soldiers would be itimidating, and perhaps taht would be a double edged sword.
the mask would make our military look less human, and perhaps more like oppressors. then again, with the mask, emotions such as fear (god help us if the soldiers are afraid) would not be seen by the enemy of the citizens of iraq. the face of security could also be the face of posession and ultimating oppressors?
yeah, I can’t spell very wellm, but would anyone help me out here?
*or the citizens of iraq
not “of” the citizens of iraq
awesome where do i get one!!!!!
Makes me want to hum,
Dum, Dum, Dum,
Dum-de-dum Dum-de-dum . . .
And breath really wheezy. Don’t know why.
If I had that, I’d wear it on my regular commute to work. My odds of needing it are greater stateside!
“Lord Vader, RISE!”
How do you smoke with this thing on?
They guy who asked how to smoke in one must be Air Force.
I think it’s a good accouterment for the convoy gunners. Maybe the drivers too if they don’t have the up-armored 10 tons.
take off, you hoser! http://www.newyorkfreestyle.com
Yeah, It would be great to scare the hell out of iraqis. But thats not our goal, and personally, my head is weighed down enough as is by nods and a kpot.
I would wear it though, but not during the summer.
I think that he looks like a teenage mutant ninja turtle. I guess this could be the product of millions of children wishing to grow up to be one, but who knows, does the great god of the universe really listen to those kinds of prayers?
I think they look sweet, I can imagine they’d need the mask to be bullet proof. If someone came into my house wearing one of those I’d try and take em out.
Its a pity they don’t come in more colours.
Owen – Dublin – Ireland
A Major Pain In The Neck
Is it just me, or does it seem like a one piece helmet might work better? Instead of trying to build on an old design, why not start from scratch and build something with better peripheral clearance and better ventilation? Maybe design a full helmet similar to a motorcycle helmet that has a removable face area?
That mask just looks clumsy.
I like the look. I especially like the fact that we look like stormtroopers. We are the imperators after all, and I don’t mean that in a bad way. The strong rule, and the weak take it.
I was an infantryman for a long time. Master military parachutist, honor grad from Ranger Scool, even did a tour in a Ranger battalion, not to mention some serious special ops time. Ground pounders walk a lot and carry all their gear, so they expend a lot of effort trying to lighten their loads. All this armor looks like it would do more harm than good — even with the bullets flying. I can see how it would be useful for people who ride in vehicles all day, but try a 25-mile road march with that artificial exoskeleton plus your weapons, packs, and communications gear — and I think a bunch of it would wind up in the ditches. This particular mask looks like a great way to heat up the already-sizzling desert air — as well as impede your communications with your fellow soldiers.
i dont pretend to be an expert on the subject or even have any direct experience with body armor but it seems to me that we are relearning the same lessons the armor makers learned in the middle ages. the face guard seems the wrong way to go. is it possible to have cat III coller the comes up from the vest to cover the cheek, leaving only the eyes and the side of the face need to sight a weapon? has anyone seen anything like this?
Door kicker? Sure…
I can see this being yet another way to get heat stroke, and yet another piece of gear that worthless brass and SNCOs will make the troops wear because of liability issues. They won't want to be held accountable to some idiot officer who'll come down on them, and s*** will roll downhill to the Pvt. Schmuckatellis who have to wear this nonsensical crap.
Having cooked in the sandbox twice, and having tried to ditch all useless crap that useless lifers made us wear – I think the owner of this company and the developers should be forced to put this crap on and made to doubletime in a sauna, while wearing all the other gear that doesn't work together. Goggles and Wiley-Xes that don't fit with the helmet straps, throat protectors that stab you in the trachea, collars so tight you can feel blood in your neck stopping up, SAPI plates that make it so you can't even lean forward, long-sleeved shirts always to protect from sunburn – even at night and if you're black – can't change the rules! Add all this crap with temperatures that reach 120-130 on a regular basis, and operations that last for days and days and days – the sweat the grime the sores from being wet and chafing on gear you can't drop, every breath of air being another choking oven blast – yeah – sure.
Did I mention the SALLE packs that have great hiking belts that fit so well, until you strap them on over a flak jacket? Or the LBV/FLC you wear underneath that, with canteens that sit where the SALLE belt maladjusts? Or the tan suede boots – great for lazy office pogues who don't want to polish their boots, but are instantly ruined and rendered "unserviceable" by oil and dark mud, because they're too dirty to be worn – so you have to go spend $95 for new ones?
This whole thing is just the stupidity of those in the office telling those in the field what to do.
Soldiers should be given the option to wear those (amongst other things…) and sign a waiver if they don’t want to.
How the hell are you supposed to fire an M4 w/ this thing?
Take a look in their gallery. The faceguard is uniform in thickness all the way around. When the .44 magnum hits it puts a big dent in a secondary layer which sticks through in the video. Thats not beefed up armor.
The facemask like the shoulder guards are great if you’re a gunner but I wouldn’t try it for dismounted troops. Gunners and weapon mounted vehicles make for bullet magnets when the shooting starts so anyone in the turret could use as much protection as possible. Ground pounders and door kickers wouldn’t benefit by this that much. Periphriel vision would be severly hurt and hearing would be cut down more than it already is which is crucial for ground ops.
omg this thing looks cool but come one man some one is going to be pissed walking up to a iraqin and saying luke i am your father come on i apreciate the extra amor but not the extra weight
If the mask looks too intimidating – perhaps a bright “smiley” face painted on it would soothe them Iraqi terrorist bastardz.
The interesting thing is that all these brainiacs making this stuff, arnt looking at the well rounded picture.
Weight, sure its heavy but if it provided more than just a pain in the neck would it be worth it.
Heat, Prehaps a simple device integrated into the armor to keep the soldiers head and face “temrature control” nothing major but like a small water cooler type aparatus.
Comunication, Giving comands to a unit or to possible prisoners must sound muffled with that hunk of plastic on, but its big enough to place a small mike and speaker set that you may even be able to plug into a patrol radio.
Enviroment, Can you say gas mask.
Look I’m not saying that I agree with the armor that they show but if your going to make a face covering for protection what good is it when you have to take it off to talk, drink, or use your NBC gear.
On a side note: the Storm trooper thing might not be to far from a good idea. Sound/sight enhancement; enviromental stability; head protection protection; comunications; and more. Not sure bout the look of them but it was still a better idea than that peice of plastic
I actually contacted the inventor of that ballistic mask. It has a very specific design goal. He wanted to give fragmentation protection to vehicular gunners who have mostly there head exposed.
Whats important here is options. A person should have the option for better facial protection if the job requires it.
A mechanic has hundreds of tools but can only use one at a time, the best one for the task at hand.
well its designed for a gunner most gunners get frag to the face and neck. they also have a mount system to quickly disconect the shield if need be.
There’s one! Set for stun!
Maybe I’m a little bit bias here, but I know the guy. He’s a marine. He has done his tour in Iraq. He’s not some government official that doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He’s been there. As a matter of fact, he’s spent the last two years trying to get enough money around just to make these masks for soldiers overseas. Look around, it’s the only decent facial protection out there. Everything else is far heavier. He
So sad our Army has to resort to this.
In the past, the Army went in, whooped ass, blew up everything and now they’re just glorified police.
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MTek Weapons systems. Marine, not Army. I respect both, but there is a big difference.
The concept is good, as for the design, I personally think that it will demorilise enemy soldiers very well.
If I have to go into war and I have a bunch of .20 – .44 cal rifles aiming at my head i’d rather wear one of those.
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