In 1994, Russian military contractors were handing out brochures touting their “high-speed underwater missiles.” This weapon, called the Shkval, had a “high kill capability,” the contractors promised. Against it, “known anti-torpedo defense system[s]” were “not effective.” Someone in Tehran liked what they read, apparently. Check out today’s New York Times.
Iran said Sunday that it had test-fired what it described as a sonar-evading underwater missile [video of the test here]…
The new missile is among the world’s fastest and can outpace an enemy warship, Gen. Ali Fadavi of the country’s elite Revolutionary Guards told state television.
General Fadavi said only one other country, Russia, had a missile that moved underwater as fast as the Iranian one, which he said had a speed of about 225 miles per hour.
That’s because this Iranian weapon — called the “Hoot,” or “whale” — is based on the Russian Shkval, according to former Naval Intelligence Officer Edmond Pope. “I was informed in late 1990’s by a Russian government official that they were working with Iran on this subject,” he tells Defense Tech. “A cooperative demonstration/program had already been conducted with them at Lake Issy Kul in Kyrgyzstan.“
The Shkval goes so fast because it creates an air bubble around itself, essentially. The process, known as supercavitation, keeps friction to a minimum. “Instead of being encased in water,” New Scientist noted, the weapon “is simply surrounded by water vapour, which is less dense and has less resistance.” (Pope has more about the technology on his website. The Airborne Combat Engineer blog rounds up supercavitation speculation here.)
As the AP notes, the Russian-Iranian cooperation could have major strategic consequences for the U.S. navy, possibly keeping American ships from operating freely in the Persian Gulf. “The U.S. and Iranian navies have had brush-ups during the past.”
During the “Tanker War,” when U.S. warships moved into the Gulf to guard oil tankers.
In 1988, the frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts was badly damaged by an Iranian mine. In response, the U.S. Navy launched its largest engagement of surface warships since World War II. Two Iranian ships were destroyed, and an American helicopter was shot down, killing the two pilots.
(Big ups: NH, RC, Kathryn)
UPDATE 12:22 PM: As Aaron and Hambling both note, Darpa has its own supercavitation project — an ultra-fast torpedo for shooting SEALs through the seas. Defense Technology International has the scoop.
UPDATE 1:39 PM: Kathryn clues us into the fact that Iran is planning to test-fire another new torpedo later today.
“Because of its high speed, this torpedo is able to strike any type of submarine at any depth,” Rear Admiral Mohammad Ibrahim Dehghani told the state-run news agency Fars.
“This torpedo will be fired from mini-warships to combat pretend enemy submarines in the Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz,” Dehghani said.
Meanwhile, ACE digs through Ed Pope’s site, and finds that “a concerted effort to develop an underwater supercavitating vehicle was begun here in the US and the Russians obtained key documents from us and reportedly bought at least one patent from a company in the US.“
ACE also echoes a commenter below, who says that the Germans have “developed a supercavitation torpedo which is able to intercept and destroy a Shkval.“
UPDATE 4:05 PM: Nick flags a quote from Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman, who reminds reporters, “Iranians have also been known to boast and exaggerate about their statements about greater technical and tactical capabilities.”
so what about an underwater missle defence system… can u imagine these missles and underwater umanned mobile platforms that are remote operated or have some primative AI… it could wreck havoc on a surface fleet…
and why cant a sub have supercavitation… using some heating element from the reactor…
The information is not correct.
There is indeed a countermeasoure. A shkval is only able to move straight ahead. And personally i don’t that the Iran has evolved beyond the russian design. But, and thats the point, the german firm “Diehl BTG Defence” has developed a supercavitation torpedo which is able to intercept and destroy a shkval. That is possible not only because it is faster (around 800km/h) but also able to steer underway.
It is named “Barracuda”.
Further information only in german, on this site for eyample: http://www.morgenwelt.de/609.html
Underwater torps would work best fitted to CAPTOR mines; though the navy has dolphins to find these kinds of things (or are they only trained to locate tether mines?)
Inability to move might be a problem, but that’s why in WW2 surface ships had quad launchers.
Then again, the Soviets probably put a nuclear warhead into the Shkval, just as we had atomic depth charges and a nuclear warhead for the Tomahawk cruise missile.
The fact that the Iranians are getting this will drive the “From the Sea” crap that the Navy is sticking with, and will only encourage the rail gun program. We’ll strike from afar and use LCS/Streetfighter to attack, where a Shkval’s speed advantage will not be as drastic.
Supercavitation would have very little use for a sub. Why? Because cavitation is noisy, and a sub survives on stealth. The Iranians talk big about sinking a sub, but the truth is that you cannot sink what you cannot find. And they do not have the ability to find US Submarines.
Surface ships, however are another matter. And their survival is going to depend on what kind of range this thing has. If it can only go straight, and the surface ship has time to react, then it should be easy to avoid.
I think this pic will be the result of these missles. Hard to Port!!! Hold Onnnn!
http://www.strangemilitary.com/content/item/8294.html
Where’s the seeker? Without some kind of guidance, this thing would be visual aim-and-shoot, at best. Pretty low Pk there.
I would find it hard to believe one of these things on a sub or small craft getting close enough to try a US Super Carrier but I would imagine there is a real good chance of some escorts doing some fancy footwork.
The Iranian’s really believe their own hype and misunderstanding of kindness as weakness. The US and West in general are overly kind but are we so weak to the point were we can be scared off with threats sword rattling and weapons shows. If anything it is proving just how insane it would be to allow Iran to get nukes and even more deadly weapons in more numbers.
I guess the next thing will be Chem/bio test to show just how scary they are.
Iran is the big show boys if we falter all actions leading to here were in vain. What bothers me is now that Iraq (a unbelievable success by historical comparison) has been made into a failure with unacceptable sacrifices by the media and others resulting in the bar being set so high that our enemies may just be right.
Has the US and the West in general become no longer able to survive in the real world? Have we become so weak that we fear so much accepting sacrifices on the battlefield today that instead we would rather wait till tomorrow when we are either forced to make massive sacrifices and do horrific acts to survive (think WW2 with todays technology and widespread WMD nukes) or are we so far gone to the point that even then we would rather test our luck at surrender to our enemies rather than fight for our way of life?
Its past time to put Partisan Political difference to the side and be what our founders intended many races but only one that one being AMERCA all AMERICANS hell its on the freekin money.
Can we all get along?? lol
the best war is the one that the leaders of the 2 sides get in front of each other ( like the old day) and fight.. why would they send somebody elsses son to die and not their own son??
I am an Iranian and sure don’t want to see my people die, the same way American’s don’t.
I wish you all Americans a good life and just remember History repeats itself… thus no single race can be the boss of the world..
Okay guys I’m an innocent mum of four living in Kuwait. Give the run-down, are those Iranian missiles and torpedoes dead accurate. Cos if they aren’t my family are dead meat. Amna
a) The US Navy bought some shkval’s from Yeltsin’s govt in the 1990’s.
b) There is no guidance: straight line only. They were designed for a Russian sub to perform a suicide attack on a US aircraft carrier by sneaking in close enough for the missle to be effective (but too close for the sub to escape support ships).
c) I would imagine (since these are so noisy) that even a conventional topedo lauched from the targeted vessel could find and kill the shkval, since it’s moving towards the conventional torpedo.
d) The Russians conned the Iranians into paying hard cash for an almost useless weapon system.
I too wish the Iranian people good luck. But we may be facing an August 1945 scenario where the only way a fanatical government can be removed is by threatening the mass of the state’s forces (not the party militia) to take things into their own hands or face national annihilation.
Unpleasant, but it it’s Ahmadinejad with nukes or a barbequed Iran, better them than me.
1. Russia views Iran as a threat (and it has more reasons to do so than either the US or Israel) and that is why it does not sell any usefull equipment. US should be more worried over its sales of latest weapory to Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt. Regimes and polcies in those countries can change in 24 hours. Remember, couple of decades ago Bin Laden was US friend.
2. Shkval is no replacement for an ordinary torpedo and nobody normal is claiming that.
3.Iran seems to be reciting Russian advertisments for latest Russian weapons.
4. Iran has only recently begun investing in its science and engineering. Acutally the Islamic revolution led to a prolonged suspension of their technical development. (Iran has some quite well known people in electronics for example).
5.Yes, it was again the Russians that copied from US the torpedo the US does not have. Yes and that is why Pope was spying to obtain the open source literature. I also must point out that technical knowledge of military inteligence officers (from any country) is ridicolous from what I have seen up to now. The fact is, that Russians are ahead in certain areas of technology (as is the US/“Western” Europe in others). In general, Russians are great in theoretical work (be it fluid mechanics,mechanics (including robotics), .…)while the implementation is often their problemetic area.
I doubt the Iranians are going to really use it against Submarines but rather against whatever big military ship (preferably aircraft carriers) resides in the Persian gulf. As noted on DiD this weapon is fired at point blank range; in a ‘suicide mission’ style where the escorts can sink the submarine.
Firing from surface ships doesnt seem ‘sound’, but from a submarine it does. The noise would expose the submarine but we’re forgetting 2 elements: Iranian FAC’s and aircraft.
FAC’s and aircraft engaging the remainder of the fleet, with the aircraft providing additional air support/cover. Could not only have further devastating effect but (perhaps) could cover the submarine’s escape.
Whats the status of the Iranian air force?
Their F-14’s; long range AAMs?
Edmond Pope? Is it the person who was released from prison due to his illness? Is he still alive? That’s news.
>and why cant a sub have supercavitation… using some heating element from the reactor…
Boil the water to make it steam? That sure sounds like something to release heat signuatures.
“Iranians have also been known to boast and exaggerate about their statements about greater technical and tactical capabilities“
Lucky we never see anything like that over here from manufacturers etc
Hi!
Here is a link to the official website of “Diehl BTG Defence” (in English) which shows the “Barracuda” that may have the ability to intercept a supercavitation torpedo. Unfortunately you don’t get much information about it.
http://www.diehl-bgt-defence.de/index.php?id=550&L=1
Sounds like it is short-ranged, and loud. Expect that the launch vehicle won’t have a great life expectancy post launch. And this is all assuming that said vehicle can survive the trip to get into launch position. There is perhaps some potential as some form of undersea remote mine…
The Germans also have an active program for such super cavitation systems, as I understand, conducted at WTD 71.
ummm, can’t they do a 2-stage-rockedo? (hehe)
i mean a supercavitation-rocket on top of a propelled-torpedo stage, which releases the high-speed warhead up on reach..
anyway, i want sharks with lasers.
Perhaps; Doesnt the SS-N-27 carry a torpedo?
serious question.
What’s to stop the Iranians (in the Straits of Hormuz example) from using a fast (but suicide) surface attack boat to get within 5kms of a tanker or aircraft carrier. Forget about subs ( I understand all that stuff).
What do you use against 1/2 dozen fast, light surface attack craft? Planes? Outside of 1 mile the Phalanx is useless. What can take out multiple 5–10 kms distant targets IN TIME.…
»What’s to stop the Iranians (in the Straits of Hormuz example) from using a fast (but suicide) surface attack boat to get within 5kms of a tanker or aircraft carrier.
No menacing ship is going to get within 10 kms of a carrier. That’s why it has an air, surface and submarine combat screen. Helos, subs, destroyers, and frigates will take care of them.
Remember how the destroyer got it’s name? It’s origin was as a “torpedo boat destroyer” when the first turbine engines appaeared at the end of the 19th century. It still can do that job, especially against boats carrying weapons of even shorter range than torpedos such as these.
Tankers are another matter. Of course, the Iraninan economy depends on tankers, so I doubt they would want to start a tanker war.
That’s why the Germans are great people, and we must ensure that the Germans stick to our side. I still think the Iranians were stupid for even showing off to the world that they tested such weapons. If I was Iran, I would keep that crap quiet. Now, it’s going to be a cake walk when Iran refuse to lay down there Neclear Program, and America Invade.
The only question that remains, is which Media Network will jump to Tehran first and telecast live Images of Anti Aircraft fire under the cover of night (green glow filter to see the anti aircraft battery easier) as important targets are blown to bits by the new F-22’s? My money is on CNN.
supercavitation weapons require high launch speeds; think of them as lifting body designs that create the vapor bubble in which they travel, a conventional torpedo would have to do some pretty amazing tricks to pull this off, there is a reason this is launched in air (off a boat) and then into water. I suppose a dual stage could work if you had the torpedo aim for the sky, rocket stage then taking the same path you see from the boat launch. If you had such technical capabilities you would most likely not use russian help as its likely this is what did in the Kursk. think about a two stage underwater first; sub launched then pop up to air flight cruise missile radar doesn’t see it coming til it pops up, if it pops up high enough for radar.…..
YOU KNOW FOLKS EVERONE IS SPECTATING ON A USA ATTACK ON IRAN, I HAVE BEEN TOLD (ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO BY VERY NOTED PERSON AND NO I WANT REVEAL HIS NAME ‚I JUST SENT HIM A EMAIL ASKING HIM TO MAKE A PUBLIC STATEMENT)THAT IRAN AND RUSSIAN HAVE A TREATY OF MUTUAL DEFENCE IF EITHER WERE ATTACKED.THIS COULD TRIGGER WW3.
a treaty between iran an russia doesn’t seem like it would be worth much. I’m willing to bet– not much, but still willing– that the treaty is only there because the two countries share a border. the whole iran contra thing where the US embassy was overrun was such a big deal because we were using iran back in the day to spy on the russian missile sites, for example. from the northeast end it had a clear view to the test area, supposedly, and it made things easier for us to avoid diplomacy to find stuff out that way. then the shah fell and iran was plunged deeper into a self-imposed dark age, with continued insane secret police and considerably more restrictions to life in general.
the best way I can think of to describe the likely depth of russia and iran’s relationship would be to look at the state’s relationship with it’s own bordering countries. if mexico was attacked and there wasn’t much chance of repercussions to the states, how much interest would we take? some, granted, but not too terribly much. not with the current administration.
In the noisy, crowded waters of the Persian Gulf ultra-quite Iranian Kilo class submarines ahve a very real chance of getting close to a U.S. carrier of sveral submarines are deployed. The U.S. surv=face fleet fails miserably to find our own larger ‚noisier nuclear submarines (noiser becasue nuclear boats require pumps to be working at all times). Even with active sonar the larger submarines are hard to find because the water layers are so complex– different thermal and haline layers, which all defract soundwaves. An Irania “combined arms” attack with submarine launched supercavitating torpedoes, mach 3 “Sunburn”-type sea-skimming anti-ship missiles launched from various directions (overwhelming Aegis even if the msisiles could eb detected and shot down– which impossible at the moment), siicide air-cushion boats .….. I think a supercarrier task force with the standard one or two Aegis cruisers and oen or two Aegis destroyers could very well be overwhelmed.
u guys lives on an other planet
interessting stuff! saved it
Great to know about this, thanks a lot.
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The german navy is also working on an own version of the shkval — since they had access to GDR (DDR) data of the former sozialist brother state.
They are working on it — since approx. 10 years. A Test firing was 2–3 years ago…since then I didnt hear anything.
Just as info
thanks for all
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