Peter B. de Selding hit the front page of Space News (subscription only) the other day with a scoop about a Chinese plan to build a 24-satellite navigation network, called Compass, in roughly the same orbit as the American and European sat-nav systems, GPS and Galileo. But theres more: the Chinese are apparently threatening to use an encrypted signal for military ops that would actually overlay and maybe interfere with “M-Code,” the Pentagon’s GPS broadcast. That’s the signal that keeps everything from precision bombs to flying drones on track.
You might remember that the Pentagon had a right royal hissy fit when the Europeans proposed to overlay Galileos encrypted signal on the M-code, because under those circumstances the U.S. military wouldnt be able to jam Galileo during any hostilities without blocking its own ability to access the GPS signal. So, you would figure collective hair would be on fire over at the five-sided building at the news of the Chinese plan, right?
Well, maybe and maybe not. Turns out this jamming biz is not as simple as it sounds. According to CDIs resident techno-geeks, Haninah, Eric and Ryan, it seems that we could, at least theoretically, jam the Chinese satellites even if the GPS signals are overlain (over-layed? laid over?). It would be difficult, and wed need a lot of jammers to ensure that enough satellites in the network were shut down to degrade the systems functionality. But jamming the signals of individual satellites is a tough challenge, so wed likely end up opting instead for frying in that the easiest way to shut them off would be to them slam them with a pulse that would put the electronics permanently out of commission.
That’s probably not an option we’d want to take with Galileo constellation — which, after all, is costing the Euros a serious wad. Considering that the U.S. isnt likely to be at war with Europe anytime soon (perhaps despite the efforts of the French), its probably safe to assume that wed only be talking about stopping up Galileo if some bad guy was using it against us and it is pretty unimaginable that under those circumstances that the U.S. would want to be faced with having to blow (electronically that is) Eurohardware out of the sky.
Instead, we’d probably want to use local jammers, to block out a given area’s satellite receivers on the ground. GPS signals (and Galileo signals) are weak. So it’s pretty dang simple to drown them out using an in-theater jammer putting out a stronger signal over a certain geographic footprint. But that only works if our M-code and their signals aren’t crossed-up.
But the question of being able to jam the Chinese isnt the only problem raised by the potential Compass signal overlay. The CDI techno-geeks, as well as one of my P-gon buds who actually knows a thing or two about satops, explained that the Compass constellation itself could be used by the Chinese as sort of a giant jammer in space to muck up GPS. The Compass sats could transmit garbage that disabled GPS, or transmit deceptive signals that would not disable it, but cause it to broadcast incorrect data. They could do this intermittently and sneakily to undermine confidence in GPS/Galileo reliability (Beijing to Washington, Were so sorry, bugs in our system.) Or they could equip the Compass satellites with high-powered transmitters linked to a big, red DISABLE GPS button at PLA HQ for use in any conflict with the U.S.
Before I get slammed for pretending to be Bill Gertz, it is worth noting, as Gregory Kulacki from the Union of Concerned Scientists pointed out, that there isnt any money in the current Chinese five-year budget plan for such a satnav system, and wed be talking about big, big money. Nor could Gregory find any info in the Chinese-language technical literature in the public domain about the specs for such a potential system. So, maybe the Chinese just want to scare the Euros into letting them in on their signal? Stay tuned, well know more next Monday when Space News will be publishing a follow-up story.
– Theresa Hitchens
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This is what we get when we keep enabling the Chinese economy. Are people ever going to wake up and realize that China is a growing threat to the west, and that it isn’t a good idea to keep buying goods from China?
Ok, here are a few takes on this issue. First, what was the main drive behind Mutually Assured Destruction? It was because the threat of a nuclear attack is so great that it became necessary to create a neutralizing situation to balance the playing field. Well, the destructive capability of GPS guided precise attacks is just as great. If you combine the destructive power contained in cruise missile attacks, drone surveillance and attacks, kinetic energy attacks, etc…you come up with a greater destructive capability, and much greater precision than nuclear warheads currently pose. So, why not use the ‘if one satellite get’s jammed, they all get jammed’ scenario as a kind of MAD for precision warfare?
Secondly, the US has already spent millions of dollars on ways around the whole GPS sat jamming scenario. There was a call a few years back from DARPA to come up with a system to target enemy positions without using current GPS satellites. I haven’t found any more information on how far this has progressed (and frankly if I had I wouldn’t be posting it for all the world to see), but I know they put out the call.
Re: The Compass sats could transmit garbage that disabled GPS, or transmit deceptive signals that would not disable it, but cause it to broadcast incorrect data. They could do this intermittently and sneakily to undermine confidence in GPS/Galileo reliability (Beijing to Washington, Were so sorry, bugs in our system.)
Interesting legal ramifications in this approach if the interference could be traced back to China. Since just about every mode of transportation uses GPS for navigation, think of the lawsuits from a crashed airliner or supertanker on the rocks. Does anyone out there remember celestial navigation?
Awe come on, If Compass is going to interupt U.S. Military Operations on any level that the Compass satellite will not meet some untimley demise??
China has thought about use of lasers to damage electronics on enemy satellites. Why not do the same with their satellites?
I’m wary of pat dismissals, and my knowledge of DSS is very thin, so I’m not confident when I make the following statement. But what the hell:
A well-designed receiver should be able to discriminate between legit GPS signals and “spoofing”, even if the bogus transmitter uses the same PN code.
And then there’s the fact that this Chinese project is still in the early planning stages. One would hope that by the time the Chinese have designed, built, and lofted enough satellites the DoD will have a number of GPS Block III platforms up, which will a very robust anti-jam capability.
And speculating in full blue-sky mode, it may be that some of the newer birds in the constellation can broadcast a double-super-secret “war emergency” AJ waveform should the need arise.
Good Morning Folks,
Here we are again it’s Congressional Budget Season and the annual boggy man stories of how China is going to get us.
This story like the one on China’s AWACS is placed to get mo-money in the Defense Budget for pie in the sky contracts to defeat an non existening threat from China.
Before we talk about a killer GPS from China lets get closer to them actually putting up a working GPS Constellation, before we worry about Chinese AWACS lets see the Chinese build a transport aircraft.
Instead of the above why not put funds into the annual Defense Budget to support our military so that in the Spring of 07 the DoD won’t have to goto Congress with a Tin Cup in hand saying we can’t pay our Soldiers. I know this is a tradition since 1775 when Washington sent a letter to the Contiental Congress wanting more money so he could pay the troops.
Ithink this might be an excellent place to start a real transformation at DoD.
ALLONS,
Byron
does any one know how to use a SEXTANT
lasers? jammers? how about we throw a rocket at any chinese nav satellite launched? We can do that. what are they going to do, million man swim over to the US?
Could it be that the china space age development
was assisted by our former commander in chief.
President Bill C.
I don’t know but heard that secret technology was
given to china by his domain. So why worry, if he
did give secrets it must be OK, right!
China build GPS satellite 24 units. That part of a country progress. Why be afraid ? Live and let live. They are not bothering us, what all the fuss ? Congressional Budget up for the military again ? Same old hype for more money…
Seems to me that if this doubtful deployment does take place and a Chineese game of interupt is played, it would be wise to put self attaching flea sats in place that find and attach to their sats without the Chineese knowing. These flees have their own can of RAID to kill on our command. They smile and say So-sorry, we smile and say So-sorry too.
Why the hell is our elected leaders attempting to force other countries to do as we say? Apparently we think we are the police force of the world and force our ideas on other nations.
Why can we not mind our own damn business and keep our own yard clean!
According to the Jaye Scenario ground and space Asat Warfare and Jamming will play a critical part in the opening stages of a PRC invasion of Taiwan, which should be happening in just under 30 days from now. It will happen just after a typhoon hits the island and will be ultra quick, lethal and legal according to the PRC’s Anti Secession law, etc., etc. Ouch Taiwan
Hey J. Turner. Simple answer to your question. Invested interest. We would love to keep our own damn yard clean if the rest of the world would quit stcking their hand out for money at every turn in the road. If the rest of the world would quit crapping in our yard it would make things simple too. Keep listening to NPR, you have it all figured out.
SIMPLE… frequency hop protocols would prevent this entire situation from ever being a concearn. its part of the encryption method used by our millitary for all communication that is “secure”. this makes the entire subject pointless. if the Chinese sats are not programmed with the same crypto key they can overlap all they want and our sats will not respond to their commands. its like being in a stadium with 100,000 people screaming as loud as they can until one person says your name, you then direct your attention to the one voice to hear what it is saying and ignore the 99,000 others. this is now a non-issue, correct?
“SIMPLE… frequency hop protocols would prevent this entire situation from ever being a concearn. its part of the encryption method used by our millitary for all communication that is “secure”. this makes the entire subject pointless. if the Chinese sats are not programmed with the same crypto key they can overlap all they want and our sats will not respond to their commands. its like being in a stadium with 100,000 people screaming as loud as they can until one person says your name, you then direct your attention to the one voice to hear what it is saying and ignore the 99,000 others. this is now a non-issue, correct?
Posted by: Steve Niemand at June 17, 2006 12:19 PM“
Sorry, Steve, but it is not SIMPLE. Frequency hopping works for terrestrial RF systems, but because our GPS uses the same freq for every satellite in the constellation, this would require a paradigm shift in every receiver system. Also, the power consumption for frequency hopping systems is grater than the PRN (pseudo random noise) system now employed. As we have no way to refuel the birds, their lifespan would be significantly shortened, and the program costs would therefore become astronomical — pardon the pun…
I say we destroy all the Sats that china sends up because if they really want a sat they can ask us while we luagh at them for tryin hey Europe has Gps so why cant they use theirs.
P.S. get ready to go to war with China it’s around the bend comin very soon
I say we destroy all the Sats that china sends up because if they really want a sat they can ask us while we luagh at them for tryin hey Europe has Gps so why cant they use theirs.
P.S. get ready to go to war with China it’s around the bend comin very soon
I say we destroy all the Sats that china sends up because if they really want a sat they can ask us while we luagh at them for tryin hey Europe has Gps so why cant they use theirs.
P.S. get ready to go to war with China it’s around the bend comin very soon
China would be really stupid to pose a threat to their customers! Yes we are their best customers they burn us and their economy goes down.
Sad buit true!
BR
I seem to recall, in the late-80’s or early-90’s the USAF were experimenting with F-15s launched ASAT ( Anti-Satellite ) missile systems. Whether I saw the information in Aviation Week, Popular Science, or elsewhere, I could not say. It seems that somebody might want to pull that technology back off the shelves, and dust it off. Assuming that other systems, such as the Patriot III, do not already have that capability. Albeit unadvertised.
A Chinese constellation of Positioning Satellites, are not the only threat that are of concern. An increasing number of countries, are launching their own satellites, designed for one purpose or another. If those countries become a threat, and actual hostilities commence, it would be in our interest to deprive the enemy of those resources. Permanently. Oh, excuse me. National Technical Means.
When I was a young boy before Sputnik and Star Trek, I had an Uncle who was a Brigader General. I he made one comment that I never forgot and that was “He who controls space controls the world”. Our international policies should take these 7 word to heart.
All china wants is U.S. Dollars to make the threat go away
Remember its not as simple as to adopt a policy of NOT buying Chinese products.. We need them to keep buying US Debt and as long as we remain dependant upon this, we will have no choice but to play nice… Not as simple as you would think.. Remeber that next time the fed raises interest rates.. Money is still far too cheap!
You give them and inch they will take a mile this why we are paying high gas prices? Do not forget the promise Sam Waltman (Wal-Mart)gave we only by American!!
rod i am going to remember that quote “he who controls space controls the world” that is a classical quote that i will remeber. do you mind if i use it in my book
i say we slowly, ever so slowly, replace China with our or Japans industry
re “All China wants is US dollars.…”, the sender should know that China currently owns well over $700,000,000,000.00 of US currency. This places China behind only Japan ($800+ Billion) in US currency reserves.
economy politics and brain if we want to be over
head chinise economy to us, go and buy there product,if you think that american have a better
politics go and use your head.
Alex Jones has some eye-opening perspectives about China on his website at http://www.prisonplanet.com that you all should view and consider! The world has virtually forgotten the brutality shown on peaceful demonstrators at Tienamen Square. How anyone can ignore such brutality just because of a nations vast wealth is beyond me! Go ahead and buy cheap products from China. When it falls apart after 10 minutes of light use, or never works right out of the box, consider if it was really the great value you thought it was when you bought it over an American made product, and just try sending it back to the manufacturer or getting replacement parts to fix it. Good luck with that! The old addage “you get what you pay for” still applies today, so buyer be forwarned when buying cheap Chineese goods that are often made by prison labor.
Mark my words, if we ever get into another shooting war we may lose. We nolonger have the
ability to produce products like we did during the
second world war. China fought us in korea, they
hate our guts, and they will do anything to defeat
us. Russia is no longer our enemy, but China is.
To whom it may concern,
This is a military website. Just to clarify that, it means for US soldiers + families. It provides good support, ideas and info. The fact is the chinese system represents a REAL threat to US Security for soldiers and families. That is the issue. I personally could care less about the political / geopolitical aspects, or personal hates of my country, I love the US and what we as Americans stand for. If our failures are that bad, u don’t like it, please go where-ever it is u like and DO NOT take the mistakes of a few and judge all persons, in this case Americans!!(Yes, admittedly I, as a Human Being do make mistakes, that I am trully sorry for, but does not mean I am evil…) SO THE FACT IS DO YOU HAVE A SOLUTION, IDEA ETC? IS IT TO THE POINT, HELPFUL, OR IS IT A PERSONAL COMMENT THAT DOES NOT GENERALLY INSULT MY COUNTRY??? AND YES I AM AMERICAN!!!
If not please feel free be quiet, not comment, and return to the GOD FORSAKEN PLACE YOU CAME FROM!!!!
Marcus N. Walters
Mike Corbeil is an idiot!!!
Quote: >
It’s all the US’s FAULT anyway. The PROBLEM is that instead of SEEING to real peace-keeping, the US is a totally hellish country, and has been rather all along. It has been, unfortunately, but really. Based on today’s laws and conventions, there’s no way that either the US or Canada could form governments, definitely not the way that happened anyway. Both would be strongly condemnable under not only international laws and conventions, but also national ones.
No one today is authorised, legally, and morally, to do anything like that, but the US and Ca are allowed to continue with much IMPUNITY. Reparations have been called for, and some promised, but none provided. And with increasing human population in the world, it’s normal that this will spread; ending up with, gradually, less space.
But I don’t see China as an enemy. I prefer to see China as a truly potential ally, while needing to be truly honest. I have NO cause to want to hide anything from China, unless it persecutes for pot-smokers, say; in which case there’ll be some silence (and which of course no longer is).
NO. NO. NO. NO. … I DO NOT see any cause for any hostility between the world’s nations; both nationally and internationally. This needs to be resolved, seriously worked on, for we need to get it done and over, so that we in turn don’t have to have such worries again. It’s very bad, stressful, and needs to be ended. F… it. It needs to stop.!
What kind of gripe can I possibly have against any other particular country, as opposed to first paying attention to my own (US and Ca)? Starting as locally as the most proximate problems are is a healthy way to procede; accomplishing some tasks along the way to the end. It’s related to “take the log (or plank) out of your own eye, before trying to take the small speck out of the eye of another person”, and “you need to have walked in another person’s shoes to be able to fully understand him or her” (paraphrased quotation, not exact; but same meaning).
China may hate the gutts of the US, but it’s not the sole country to do so. Most don’t like the US; just fear it, while having reason to do so, too.
The problem is not working on real peace making.
WE lack real peace-makers, in sufficiently high level positions anyway, to make a real impact on the wrong-headed path. Plenty of the overall population is against this war, but the war is continued, boosted, speech-wise anyway, now and then, etc.
Mike, dude, not a lot going on at four in the morning, eh? Or at least nothing as important as getting those 9,727(!) inane words out onto the Internet. I bet there are doctoral theses in quantum mechanics shorter than your “blurb”. I think I only made it through the first couple hundred before realizing what a waste of my time it would be to try to wade through your quagmire.
A word of advice — work on your sentence structure, grammar, and word choice. Maybe invest in a thesaurus. Also, your sentences are way too long. Can you say “run-on”? You maxed out one sentence at 158 words(!) and averaged 33 per sentence. Can you take constructive criticism? I’d say you’re a TEEny bit verbose. A blast at all those parties you must get invited to, but a wee bit wordy when your audience isn’t as gassed as yourself.
Oh, and you spelled “color” wrong. There’s no “u” in it in this, the best country on the planet!.
Cool off (Bill) Holden! Let the man rant. What are you an antiranter? BTW, They could give Japan and China (the PRC) a run for their profits, if the Koreas reunited peacefully! According to the Jaye Scenario ground and space Asat Warfare and Jamming will play a critical part in the opening stages of a PRC invasion of Taiwan, which should be happening in just under 30 days from now. It will happen just after a typhoon hits the island and will be ultra quick, lethal and legal according to the PRC’s Anti Secession law, etc., etc. Ouch Taiwan, you were warned!
I agree with Mr. Prousalis’s assesment of Mike Corbeil.… He IS an Idiot…
Oh and another comment about Mike Corbeil’s dissertation.… “Yawn”
Hello friends,
I could not resist to smile a little bit about this forum. Most US people paid for starting wars are really getting nervous anytime a non-US country starts some high-tech project. I think it would be best to divide the world into let’s say for a start three parts. T for terror states, U for the US terror state and N the other normal states. We currently have accomplished phase 1 where we have this division. Next is to let the U and T states fight against each other and the outcome will be that U survives. As long as that phase goes on the N states have to come up with nitty gritty technology for the later fight. Of course this is done below U’s radar. Unfortunately the chinese and EU people sometimes drop some information e.g. about their GPS replacements or submarines kicking enemy troops ass. Nevertheless after the phase finished N will obviously face U. At that time N has developed as much force to kick U from earth. Yes, first things first, even if that results in a big bang. Then the world will be in a position to focus on real problems, without troublemaker U hanging around. The resources U currently eats up can be spent much more useful.
Sincerely,
a friend
Oh, I forgot, you only understand short sentences. If you have trouble with reading, then please ask someone with higher education.
Mr Lin Chang:
Like most of your country’s products, your comments are useless drivel.
When evaluating a source, consider the source.
The “Union of Concerned Scientists” is NOT a neutral body by any means — it is a left-wing political organization. Their didsmissal of concerns re: China’s system may be true — but then, a tobacco company’s claim that smoking dangers are wildly overstated may also be true. A wise listener will understand the inherent biases at work and take both with a grain of salt, seeking to test their claims with greater rigor.
Especially when you look at the author’s actual expertise, which is far outside the realm of military satellite systems or the military generally.
Or when you consider that China isn’t exactly a transparent democracy, and so published budgets mean little — especially in military-related matters. A rather elementary insight for a supposed “expert” to miss.
There’s a lot we don’t know about Compass at this point, and many of the unknowns revolve around some pretty technical questions related to military (and hence not widely discussed) aspects of the GPS network.
The political and funding unknowns, meanwhile, are likely to remain unknowns until we can see defined events taking place. Given the 20-year planning cycle required for somethinglike a GPS satellite constellation, by then it’s a bit late. The UCS “contribution” to that part of the discussion is minimal, verging on negative value.
if this scenario should ever happen it would be a very limited victory for US or THEM, so what are we going to stand for or give up? that is the question thats around the corner.
National strategies aimed at making the US unable to use the GPS system for guiding weapons is stupidity of the first degree, yes GPS weapons are acurate and deadly but overall they are a lot less deadly than a lot of our other capabilities. In a war scenario if a target has to be destroyed it will be. If that means we can neutralize it with a 500lb GPS guided weapon then awesome. If GPS is down and due to the range involved the only thing that can assure destruction of the target is nuclear weapons then we’ve still got lots and lots and lots of those. So really disabling US GPS can be looked at like this: China is staring at a fantasically well armed surgeon, we can acurately destroy almost anything we want fairly quickly. If China knocks the scalpel out of our hand and kicks sand in our eys, we still generally know where stuff is and we’ll use the sledge hammer.
When I read the article, I was wondering how will China be a threat to the US? She just doesn’t want to be bullied again that’s all, I mean which nation would want those massacre and unfair treaties to be imposed on them? Remember 1962, it was India who wanted China as a partner to counter the Western powers. China distrusted India as the Indians adopted the ‘forward policy’ and intruded on Chinese territory since the Indians set up military posts north of the McMahon Line. But it was all a misunderstanding and a war was started. Just as the US claimed what she considered her states during the American civil war when the southern states seceded, is China ‘expansionists’ when she Claimed Tibet? How about US taking Mexican lands in the past, is it on Bush agenda to cede land back? A ‘friendly to US and Europe’ China would be beneficial to the West. Take about fighting rogue Islamic states like Iran and Iraq, a resurgent Russia and terrorism.
hi
we leave in plase how ne gps reslution radar and other system.
please sent to me the highest reslution gps how price about (550 $usa).
DaBunny, your xenophobic bigoted white man attitude is the same that caused colonialization, the creation of third world countries, global warming, apartheid, weapons of mass destruction, extinction of thousands of plant and animal species across the world; truth is, white people represent the worst of the human race. Now when another country wants to build up the arms to prevent itself from being colonialized by whites again, you bigots label it as “commie”, and think you’re right. Dumb ass. Maybe you guys can just kill off all the yellows, the blacks, the deer, the ecosystem; just nuke them all because that what whites are good at doing: Then you’ll have nothing left to shoot with your cowboy guns and hunting rifles but each other in your miserable little dead planet. Yippee kay yay you racist bastards! This forum is for losers; this is the first time I’ve come across it; the last time I’ll come here!