After a few soldiers started wearing Dragon Skin body armor, the much-hyped alternative to the standard Interceptor defenses, the Army banned the flexible armor — and allegedly threatened to cut off the life insurance policies of anyone wearing it. Then, the Army took a different tack, saying it would start testing the Skin, to see if it was up to snuff.
Now, one of the officers in charge of those tests is publicly dissing the Dragon armor, Jane’s Nathan Hodge reports.
In comments posted on an online discussion forum, Karl Masters, director of engineering for Program Manager — Soldier Equipment, said he recently supervised tests of Dragon Skin, a vest made by California-based Pinnacle Armor.
“I was recently tasked by the army to conduct the test of the 30 Dragon Skin SOV 3000 level IV body armor purchased for T&E [tests and evaluation],” Masters wrote in a 6 June posting. “My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor. I’m under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain.
“I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing an SOV 3000 Dragon Skin — don’t.“
Masters added that he would not recommend the vest, particularly given the threat from 7.62 x 54R armor-piercing rounds.
“I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents,” he added…
Pinnacle officials have consistently maintained Dragon Skin passed the tests that were conducted in May, and said army officials agreed to continue tests at a later date. They say they are awaiting word from the army on the resumption of testing…
After repeated inquiries, an army public affairs official referred Jane’s to Pinnacle for more information on the results of testing. Lieutenant Colonel William Wiggins, an army spokesman, said the safety of use memorandum regarding Dragon Skin is still in force.
“As our research community comes up with new products, we’ll field them,” Col Wiggins said. “You can be assured that we field the best body armour in the world.”
Allan Bain is a nobody.What are you “BainDead”. Did you even graduate high school? Who are you? What is your agenda? Are you William’s lover? You fagget.
Allan Bain is a nobody.What are you “BainDead”. Did you even graduate high school? Who are you? What is your agenda? Are you William’s lover? You nobody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why hasn’t Army or Marines or anyone tested Dragonskin again? It’ almost like they just don’t care. I can see how they have limited time with the war and all but they still need to examine everything thuroughly. Especially if it could save lives. I’m not looking for a response to this, these are just questions I wonder about here at home.
First rule of testing should be, that it be done by someone who does not work for the vest’s competition. The second rule in my book is that the testing should be very intensive and take more than just a few days. The final rule should be, that you don’t diss the armor publicly, for one it doesn’t help your case since you work for it’s competition, and second they gave Dragon Skin the publicity that it has today. Finnaly the vest will be retested but the testing will be done in a proffesional matter in which it’s testers will only care if the armor performs better or worse than what we already use.
Great concept Trey. Remember when me and my brother told you about these forums? I told you there were self proclaimed armor experts trying to make up crap. They ain’t arround no more though. HaHaHaHa!!!!!
Allan Bain
Dragonskin is not your idea.
You have no credibility.
Now run away and ask for murray to take you back.
Who is Allan Bain, I’m sure he has a self servicing website but he sounds like a no credibility douchebag to me and my girl Erica.
And William what’s the matter, can’t face the trauma of a real soldier makin’ points?
I am the inventor of Dragon Skin, it’s an undisputed fact,except by no bodies who have never made any armor for sale to the market like you guys.
Yourlanguage speaks volumes about your intelligence and maturity, it reminds me of the Geico commercials, You know, “it’s so easy a caveman can do it” except the cavemen are smarter than Erika and Trey. That would make you both some sort of Monkey creature gibbering about things you can’t understand.
Grow up, nobody takes your opinions seriously, Nobody! I am just trying to be cool and be honest with you so you can move on and maybe one day make something of yourselves; maybe go to school or something, and quit drinking and doing drugs. Clearly you both are on some kind of drug, and making fools of yourselves simultaneously.
Hmmm, where do all these idiots come from?
Good luck it sounds like your going to need it!
Trey in response to your sensible comment:
First rule of testing should be, that it be done by someone who does not work for the vest’s competition. The Dragon Skin was tested by the Army, not by any competitors.
The second rule in my book is that the testing should be very intensive and take more than just a few days. Military armor testing is the most extensive, it is called a First Article Test, and is the most demanding test any armor faces outside of actual use.
The final rule should be, that you don’t diss the armor publicly, for one it doesn’t help your case since you work for it’s competition, and second they gave Dragon Skin the publicity that it has today. The public dissing was in response to the direct attacks and mis-information about Interceptor and the Program Office responsible for fielding armor. No one at PEO Soldier works for the competition, they work for the government.
Finnaly the vest will be retested but the testing will be done in a proffesional matter in which it’s testers will only care if the armor performs better or worse than what we already use. This is exactly how testing is performed. This is the mission of PEO Soldier. Their only concern is that the armor performs. If you cannot produce a product that meets all of the criteria, you fail. If the product does not perform after environmental conditioning, heat, cold,wet, etc. you flunk. If the armor fails ballistically, guess what? It is not something that the Army is looking anytime soon. Come back when it works properly.
Nice try Allan, who do you think beleives your crap? Yes it is fun to see a self proclaimed inventor of Dragonskin (yeah right) get his panties in a wad. Let’s get real here yeah I’m ribbin’ ya, and you are probably a smart guy. What I’m getting at is if you do have something in the works then why do you even bother to waste your time on these rediculous forums. Yes I do drink, but I have never done drugs and I am a soldier of this country. So if you want to talk shit go ahead.
Hey, William I agree I’m not arguing that the FAT testing isn’t the proper method I’m just wondering if the testing was totally completed. The evidence, although very little, does not support a complete First Article Test. I think it will be retested and the drama will be over but for now I think it looks promising but then again what we use now isn’t bad. I just worry about the parts of Interceptor that aren’t as well protected with hard armor. It would seem to me the solution would be to add more hard armor thus adding weight and lessening mobility. The Interceptor has saved more lives than Dragonskin and I love anything we are issued, not because I have to but because it’s my job and I think all soldiers have faith in the IBA system. At least I know I do.
Allan you can’t even spell my name. You should use your sell-out money to go to college. Trey is a respectable man and to say he’s on drugs is rediculous. He’s a college graduate like myself and is being redeployed to Iraq with my brother later this summer. What armor have you made for sale to the market? None. Further it looks like you take our opinions seriously or you wouldn’t respond to them in the first place. You expect us to buy your shit? Then learn proper english douche.
Erica and I are gonna keep ribbin’ anyone who thinks he’s a know it all. So keep it comin’.
Good in luck to you in Iraq, hope you make it home.
Cheers
Good luck to you in Iraq, hope you make it home.
Cheers
William wake up Karl Masters even admits he works for Dragonskin’s competition.
I agree FAT testing is the best way to go but, it was not completed therefore the results aren’t fair.
The public dissing is a matter of opinion. You have to admit that it got the ball rolling as far as publicity goes.
We agree that PEO soldiers are unbiased but the problem is that Karl Masters and James Zheng were in charge of the testing. They were forced to retired early. I wonder why. It was due to the fact that they did not follow protocol when testing Dragonskin instead they chose to unprofessionaly test it and then bash it publicly.
The lack of responsibility is on their shoulders. And once again we are not interested in seeing a lesser capable armor for soldiers we just want the unbiased truth so that all soldiers have no worries about their armor’s capabilities.
If anyone thinks we are doubtfull about Interceptor or anything soldiers are issued, think again. I have faith in Interceptor because I know it performs. I would also appreciate fair testing with anything that could help me and fellow soldiers.
Yeah like that isn’t condascending Allan. I’m sure you’d like to see my dead body on a gore website but hey that’s o.k. At least I’m a part of something with a good history.
Soldiers For The Truth is a very respectable group
and they helped in this investigation.
This is great, I have worked with them before and was amazed to see the results that can come from their research. I hope they do more and more stories about this controversy because it looks like only soldiers can get it through their heads what is going on.
Once again
NBC NIGHTLY NEWS TONIGHT
CHECK OUT http://WWW.SFTT.ORG FOR MORE DETAILS AND ANYTHING SOLDIER RELATED
Once again sorry patriot for the multiple postings. I’m just giddy because I know they always get results.
Trey that’s repugnant, I hope that your
mission(s) have a valid efficacy, and that you fulfill them with honor, and I hope that you make it home safe.
But you and your friend Eriduh don’t know anything about armor or testing. It’s pretty evident.
I think you’re an idiot Allan. I know more about armor and testing than you ever will. Just because I have an attitude based opinion doesn’t mean I don’t know my shit. I have a military career and I wear armor for my job so I think I’m more entitled to talk about armor than you ever will be. I’m a Staff Sgt. and I’m in charge of 18 year olds with more qualifications for armor based knowledge than you. You may be able to say what you said about Erica but if you knew either of us your opinions would not exist in that fashion. So to you Allan “Bain Dead” good luck in all your future endeavors cause you’re gonna need it. And that is truly evident!
I just watched the NBC story and yes it was about Dragonskin. They are doing their own independent testing and Dragonskin is hands down better than Interceptor according to their ballistics experts. They are doing a follow up on sunday and will show more results. Clearly the controversy has just begun and there will surely be more stories about it in the future. Sounds like bad news for all the haters of something that could save lives. By the way Mr Bain all my missions have a so called “valid efficacy” because they aren’t surrounded in greed. I fullfill my missions with honor because I don’t sell out on a whim either. I always make it home because other soldiers lives depend on me and I depend on them as well. So you can stop trying to be condascending and face the fact that you are not an expert. You may have had an idea a long time ago but now all you can do is claim that you have something better than Interceptor and Dragon skin eventhough nobody has heard of any of it.
Allan it does seem like you are somewhat using the Dragonskin layout on your new vest. What have you changed that makes it better than Pinnacle’s vest? Is there a pattent infringement with the vest? Just cross you’re t’s and dot you’re i’s because there needs to be something better and it shouldn’t be chopped down in it’s infantcy by a lawsuit or something. Ideas seem pretty good but is anyone purchasing or testing your stuff? I have to say that I’m a bit skeptical with the titanium stuff.
Well thats great Trey glad to hear it. Keep up the good work then!
Jacob,
Can’t tell you why it’s different because of the secrecy around the development.
Good advice to dot the i’s and cross the t’s, thanks for that, and yes I have. I have solid legal advice in this matter that are experts on this type of Intellectual Property.
At the end of the day the reason why Dragon Skin 7 years later hasn’t made the big time in sales to the military is price. Whether thats bad or good isn’t my call (i think it’s bad), but
honestly I can buy a plate for 250.00 dollars that will take 10 shots of M-80 ball rounds at “real” NIJ velocities, and it weighs less than Dragon Skin. So price is always an issue, and thats where we have seen the market from the beginning. Mr. Neal saw it differently, he wants to make 3000.00 a unit on the full coverage level 4 vest. That’s absurd and greedy, and that combined with an ego issue has been the main reason why Dragon Skin hasn’t been adopted.
Trey, pack it in pal, do your job and I will do mine. I wouldn’t think about trying to tell you how to train and run a unit, I have 12 NIJ certifications, 5 patents in my name and 4 pending, and have dealt successfully with over 500 governments and municipalities over the last 20 years. I have also consulted for 7 major armor companies. I know what I am talking about.
So save your opinions about my status as expert they mean nothing.
I am frankly shocked that you would take such a hostile attitude using so many colorful metaphors to insult me with such little information. I hope you are smarter and more thourough in representing the USA on the battle field. I would hate to think that we are being represented by people who don’t do their homework and make idle baseless negative comments about other people you don’t even know. It’s sets a bad example, and you should be better than that.
Did any of you watch the NBC Nightly News Special on Dragonskin? Obviously not. Even the designer of the Interceptor admited that Dragonskin was better hands down. I’m so pissed that two men alone jeoprodized thousands of men that could already be wearing this armor. Not to mention how many died. God bless those soldiers. This story will certainly lead to advancements. I can say for myself that I was hoping the ARMY guys were right. It’s too bad this kind of shit happens. Those men Karl Masters and James Zheng have to live with the penalties of greed, as I like to call them, for the rest of their lives.
I can’t say I’m surprised that the man in charge of making the Interceptor body armor would publicly insist that a competing design is inferior.
My question is why are high level officials including I beleive a 3 or 4 star general being allowed to wear it. Certainly if it’s good enough for them it’s good enough for the rest of the military. The remark of the Brigadier General I beleive was “even Generals make mistakes” with a grin from ear to ear. It’s like they know it’s better and don’t want to cough up the cash.
Definately Trey, there is certainly something up when a General can’t even talk without a shit eatin grin on his face. I’m guessing he will be retiring early as well.
I can’t understand how a high-ranking general claims, ON NATIONAL TV, that his staff might have bought him the dragon armor, and he might have worn it without knowing? Ah, can we say DUH! Does he want the public to think he’s that stupid, and be impressed he made it that far in his career, or does he want the public to accept his lame excuse at face value, ’cause he’s so far up the chain? Either way we’re in trouble!!!!!
Trey it is utter desparation on the part of Pinnacle Armor to get a relic from the past and
post him up on National TV to say that. Ok yea I would probably wear Dragon Skin too, but that isn’t the point! The idea that only the best equipment for our ground troops is rediculous. I have seen it all over the world in every procurement, the end users want the best, the commanders have budgets and it never transcends to acquiring the best. Plus there are some drawbacks that you never hear about, things you don’t know and Pinnacle isn’t going tell you.
I can tell you that we do have something coming out this summer that will be an improvement and address these weaknesses. I also know of other entities that have versions as well that are performing quite well in development. If you really care about the troops and getting the best equipment available tell Pinnacle to drop the price 30%, and then pass the Article One testing; believe me they will still make plenty of money.
Ya know Mr. Bain now you’re starting to talk my language. All I want is someone to wake up and see that we do need better equipment and that there is other technology that may be better. Dragon Skin might not even be that armor but someone will surely make something similar that is tougher and more affordable. I can’t persuade Pinnacle to do anything, I would hope that they would at least try to work with people on the pricing. If they won’t then someone else will and basicly they will go bankrupt anyways. Where do they get off selling those vests for five grand? Hell just strap a used car to your body. I never was a fan of the pricing or publicity but if it helps then it can’t be ignored. Hopefully someone will come up with the right thing.
Trey, you make a very viable arguement. The pricing is the only reason I can see that is hampering dragonskin. It’s just not reasonable to pay that much when you can get probably two Interceptors for the same amount.
I’d have to say that it is well worth the price if it lives up to it’s word. Come on our soldiers lives are priceless and if we could give them a vest made of diamonds we would. But some things just aren’t as practical as they should be.
I’d have to say that it is well worth the price if it lives up to it’s word. Come on our soldiers lives are priceless and if we could give them a vest made of diamonds we would. But some things just aren’t as practical as they should be.
I agree with you all, the troops are worth the investment, but I am just explaining what I have seen in over twenty years of tendering, budgeting always factors in somewhere.
I can tell you this we will produce our level 4 FC vest for about 2800.00 dollars give or take in orders of 1000 units or more. 5K is rediculous.
Good Luck to you in IRAQ and I mean that.
Hey Trey, I find it funny that everything about Dragon Skin is “Secret” but they claimed that the CIA tested and bought DS for their operatives. I am sure that they just revealed some confidential information about capabilities that is at least an OPSEC violation. I wonder how happy they are about that. Pinnacle is a bunch of money grubbers, that is the ONLY REASON they are doing all this $$$$$$$$$$. There are in fact several companies working on flexible armor, this research has been going on for years. Everytime you hear about things like liquid armor that is part of the government, university research, and industry efforts to perfect flexible armor. however they all have one common problem, the design requires overlapping joints which automatically make the armor HEAVIER by 20 to 40 percent. Liquid armor is a concept that does not require overlapping joints. So there are thousands of people working a real solution to the weight problem. No one has found it yet. Least of all Murray Neal the circus tent ring leader! He is marketing a myth. Using sensationalism, lies and deceit. This is a farce being perpertrated upon scared soldiers and their families by someone making a profit. The price of Dragon Skin by industry standards is rediculous and an outright ripoff. In the last 10 years no one with any credibility has bought Dragon Skin, no one WORLD WIDE, even the Israelis didn’t look at it more than once. So now all of a sudden the ARMY has a conspiracy to deny Dragon Skin. Well I don’t buy it, and neither does anyone with any experience in the ballistics field. Pinnacle is the laughing stock of the industry. They are taking advantage of ignorant and naive people and are selling the concept of better armor. Pinnacle has a long way to actually having an armor system that can meet military requirements. Murray Neal knows this and is trying to force the Army to pay to perfect his armor system, since they lack the experience and expertise to do so. He needs to hire the right staff and continue development, when and if they get it right, someone credible may take them seriously.
Well said William
Well said William
Brad,you should go have a DNA test done, since me and your momma had a thing years ago. I hope you didn’t turn out ugly and “stupid”. By the way tell her I said hello, and if she ever gets rid of the loser to call me. Just tell her Willie Boy is here.
Remember my prediction about secret dealings with NBC and a 4 star general? Well now you know the rest of the story. Pinnacle and NBC orchastrated this ambush of the Army along with General Wayne A. Downing. It will be interesting to see the Army and USSOCOM reaction to this whore who would sell our soldiers out for money. I hope he enjoys spending his Pinnacle allowance, it won’t last long after they are all in jail for fraud.
This forum is dead, just like my sex life. Where are you Mr. Bain? Do you still wanna sex me?
Fag.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1-William sucks fat dicks!
2William swallows!!!!!!Just ask Allan Bain!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Very intelligent post my friend, I think you have some deep seeded issues that can only be resolved at a Psychologist office.
go to http://www.evolutionarmor.com and click on the
Dragon Skin Vs. IBA
BTW ~ We have named our new generation of flexible armor and will advertising officially in October, 2007 in Law & Order Magazine
Regards
I see that the cheer leaders for Dragon Skin have been quiet for some time now. Was the failed tests, the fraud investigations, the embarrassing testimony before congress, the NIJ revocation of certification, the Air Force placing Pinnacle on the denied parties list or the criminal investigation when they raided Pinnacle’s offices that put a damper on their enthusiasm?
I do remember one Robocop talking about how his whole tactical team wears Dragon Skin. I wonder how his team mates feel now that some truth has been shed on the Dragon Skin myth?
I really don’t understand all the vicousness concerning this product. I saw the Future Weapons show with the former SEAL testing DS and it apparently did quite well. I guess what we need is to have some truely objective tests run by an equally objective tester. One on One, Dragon Skin vs. Current Military Armor. Multiple Rounds, Multiple Hits and Handgrenade Servivability. That’s the only way we’ll ever know the truth. Maybe MythBusters could be contacted or if not, I will volunteer my services for this test cycle.
Eisenhower: Supreme Allied Commander in WWII had this to say as he left the Presidency of the United States of America.
http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=e45d2u4ssn
Do us all a favor; Pass it on.