Comments on: Mystery Munition in Lebanon Strike

By: Azrael

Azrael — Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:21:02 +0000

Apparently, the fellow with 20 years experience has never seen the damgage done by a 40mm low velocity grenade on a civilian(japanese) automobile. Looks like it was fired from up on the hillside, from a trace line forward of the vehicle down on the vehicle, notice the secondary fragmentation pattern on the hood. Not everything that conks you on the head is dropped by an f-16.

By: DJM

DJM — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:07:23 +0000

SFW would drop onto/into the hottest portion of the vehicle as it was designed to punch through the lighter armor above engine compartments of armored vehicles. This damage is something else.
D

By: J.B. Zimmerman

J.B. Zimmerman — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:52:29 +0000

re: the BBC pic of the ambulance…note that the hole in the ambulance is small, with a roughly circular shape, and visibly burned at the edges (paint charred). In addition, there is a clear pattern of shrapnel/blast damage radiating from the impact point. Compare this with the large, almost square hole in the car in the post, with curled edges and no visible charring/shrapnel.
One quick note: the picture caption, at least, says nothing about an air strike. It says the ambulance was ‘caught up in the violence.’ An antipersonnel cluster bomblet and a hand grenade aren’t noticeably different in many cases; this could have simply been a ground munition hitting the top of the ambulance — or, from the angle, a small mortar shell designed for fragmentation rather than penetration.
Man, I love to hear myself talk, don’t I? Sorry.

By: Bob

Bob — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:36:43 +0000

The BBC has a picture of an ambulance with curious hole in the roof, the result of an Israeli air strike.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/5245644.stm

By: John

John — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:44:43 +0000

Even a cluster munition would cause outward deflection of the metal, this vehicle looks like a roll over.
Also the windsheild is still in tact.
No shrapnel holes in the roof or heat/fire damage to the paint?
I wouldn

By: Cranky Observer

Cranky Observer — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:57:46 +0000

If it was hit by a weapon and not just a junker that was in a road accident, my vote would be for a non-explosive guided bomb. A rock with fins, in other words. Such an object would go through the roof, hit the ground below, and bounce back up. If it were small and didn’t hit the gas tank that would be all you would see.
Cranky

By: Brian

Brian — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:04:29 +0000

That’s some pretty shoddy reporting work there, David.
Seriously, a cluster bomb? Are you honestly telling us that? My cousin drives a car in worse shape than that. Your politics are showing through, AGAIN.

By: mike

mike — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:27:40 +0000

Another, more likely possibility is that the car was just driving around partially stripped. Anyone who's been in a "developing country" situation like southern Lebanon can tell you that's not exactly uncommon. Again, I am expressing no opinion about possible ordnance effects on the car, 'cause I don't have one, or whether or not photos are being 'faked', because I don't care.

By: mike

mike — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:57:38 +0000

“The car has obviously been stripped. For example, the headlights are both missing, not because of damage, but because they were removed by hand.“
No idea about cluster bombs or submunitions, so I’ll keep my trap shut on that one, and I think arguing about whether or not a given photo is faked just plays out as a bunch of ideological yammering from both sides, so no comments there either. (Besides that one.)
But I *do* know that if you are going to be sneaking around in your car, and not in a convoy, you’ll want to disable the lights.

By: Kaltes

Kaltes — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 06:49:16 +0000

One more thing, if a SFW hit this car, which is on its face a ridiculous notion because a SFW is a very specialized weapon designed to be used on heavy armored concentrations, I could forsee one of two results:
1) The car would have a much smaller hole in the roof (and then the floor) and otherwise remain entirely functional, as the powerful but small penetrator would pass through the car quickly and nearly all the penetrator’s energy would end up in the ground beneath the car.
2) That the car would be a charred, twisted mess. This could easily happen if the penetrator caused spalling, throwing small fragments of white-hot metal into the seats, for example, starting a fire. Cars tend to be filled with flammable materials and will burn for quite some time, leaving a blackened frame behind.