The seemingly-endlessly soap opera behind the new-fangled Dragon Skin body armor has taken yet another plot twist.
In our last episode, Army program managers in charge of a competing body armor system were publicly dissing the Dragon — while they were in the middle of supposedly impartial tests to gauge the armor’s effectiveness. “To anyone considering purchasing an SOV 3000 Dragon Skin — don’t,” one program manager said on an online forum. “I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents.“
But the National Institute of Justice, which has long rated bullet-proofing systems, has come up with a different opinion, according to Soldiers for the Truth. Within a few weeks, the NIJ will formally certify for Level III protection — good enough to stop AK-47 fire. If I’m not mistaken, that would make the Dragon Skin the first soft armor, without plate inserts, to get that high of a rating. And it would certainly call into question the Army managers’ disparaging remarks about the armor — after Dragon Skin went from ballyhooed to banned to grudgingly accepted for testing, all in a matter of months. Stay tuned…
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Dragon Skin: Proven Tough?
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Why is this pointless discussion still going on when Phillip Coyle one of Dragon Skins main pushers clearly admitted to congress that
Interceptor saves lives. Dragonskin can’t even pass an FAT test which means there are critical issues wwith it. The issue of the disks coming unglued or unattached is the biggest problem I’ve seen. I bet if you tested DS in the field in Iraq it would fail catostrophicly. The day to day temperature swings, with being in excess of 125 degrees at times and then being in an air conditioned base or even slightly cooler than 80 degrees would cause the disks to eventually disattach and slump to the bottom of the vest. Until the issues are addressed there is nothing better than Interceptor. To anyone who thinks differently then the smell in the air arround you is chicken shit. And you are looking for reasons to get out of your duties to this country. Hey if I had a choice of not going to Iraq I wouldn’t but as a soldier you gotta do what you gotta do. I have been in two tours and have been through a lot but I know one thing is for certain my comrads and I weren’t worried about our equipment. All you can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst so to all you who are gonna be deployed, good luck and keep good faith because we all need it. I recommend these steps for daily inspiration. 1. Remember the fallen soldiers and fight in their honor 2. Tell yourself you are gonna make it. And beleive it. Because you will. 3. Don’t see it as a death sentence. Too many soldiers can get depressed in those conditions. If you have free time use it to socialize or play sports or guitar or whatever you are in to. 4. It’s always good to talk to your family back home. I didn’t always have a chance to do this, but when you can you’ll see that it makes a hell of a difference in your attitude and well being. 5. Finally when you get home don’t hesitate to get extensive counseling and also talk with your comrads about your experience because they are really the only ones that can understand those experiences.
You can argue over Dragon Skin if you like, but to say the the IBA is the premier system… well, not to my eyes. I suppose it depends, as ever, on the intended use. There’s also no question it’s gotten better in the latest iteration. It’s just a few years behind Paraclete and Eagle (and perhaps a few others) technology wise, which is not too shabby for government procurement. There is a darker truth here. You can only field so many products, so fast, for so much money. Drawing from a limited resource pool, the government has to judge whether enhanced equipment in other areas and training might not be a more cost effective life saving measure. It might not make you feel warm and fuzzy when you wear the stuff, but if “perfect” armor saves 100 lives a year and better equipment and training saves 150… where is the money better spent?
I am disrespectful sorry everybody for being so vulgar. I dont know that small children visit this site with their parents. I am ashamed of my behavior.
I’m not disrespectfull. I may be an aggravated soldier of America who hates wannabe soldiers but that’s my right. Dragonskin isn’t ready for use period. I’m not saying it never will be but for now we have Interceptor and that’s all that matters. Why aren’t these people that are championing Dragonskin also bringing up the issues of our armored vehicles. When I was first deployed to Iraq in 2004 our Hum-V’s were not protected at all. There were no doors on the one I drove and the protection was non-existant. It’s good to see that they are making upgrades to these vehicles. IED attacks are the biggest problem in Iraq and no vest on the planet or universe will protect you from them. I don’t care if you are wearing two Dragonskins and two Interceptors. Your legs arms and head will be decimated by a stacked IED. So to all you armor experts what is the answer for this problem? I know one thing, the answer deffinately isn’t nor will it ever be Dragonskin.
Exactly, if anyone really was concerned they would bring up the issue of armored vehicles. Because there is no vest that can protect you from an IED attack. I can recall a patrol in the summer of 2006 where we were providing convoy support and IED’s were the main threat for the road we were on. The vehicle in front of us was hit by an IED and then an ambush insued. There were three deaths and seven seriously injured. It was clear to me at that time that no amount of protection could stop an IED attack from criticly injuring soldiers. Therefore here in the states I have written congress and spoken with several high ranking officials about this issue. MRAP vehicles are now being largely produced and deployed to Iraq for soldier patrol as well as convoy support. I never heard of Dragonskin before and it doesn’t seem like it could help as much as new vehicles. But if it can I hope the Pinnacle company can weed out the problems and get them useable as soon as possible. Keep it real
and keep on truckin brothers.
Exactly, if anyone really was concerned they would bring up the issue of armored vehicles. Because there is no vest that can protect you from an IED attack. I can recall a patrol in the summer of 2006 where we were providing convoy support and IED’s were the main threat for the road we were on. The vehicle in front of us was hit by an IED and then an ambush insued. There were three deaths and seven seriously injured. It was clear to me at that time that no amount of protection could stop an IED attack from criticly injuring soldiers. Therefore here in the states I have written congress and spoken with several high ranking officials about this issue. MRAP vehicles are now being largely produced and deployed to Iraq for soldier patrol as well as convoy support. I never heard of Dragonskin before and it doesn’t seem like it could help as much as new vehicles. But if it can I hope the Pinnacle company can weed out the problems and get them useable as soon as possible. Keep it real
and keep on truckin brothers.
The MRAP vehicles are a major turning point in this war. It’s a major improvement over the armored Hum-V’s. Casualties will be substantially lower and hopefully they will produce enough for all soldiers to use thus elliminating IED casualties. I’m glad to see that things are starting to shape up in Iraq as far as equipment and I beleive the moralle will be raised with this addition. I’m not sure what to think of Dragonskin though. If there is an issue with it’s design you would think a sensible company would fix the problem or just go away. Interceptor is very reliable and from everything I’ve heard about Dragonskin it doesn’t seem reliable at all.
David you are a dumbass. They issue these weaopons because the soldier is able to carry more ammunition idiot. The M4 has a higher velocity round and is more accurate at longer ranges it also allows the soldier to carry more ammo at a lesser weight and size. As for the 9mm. the rounds are also smaller allowing more ammo to be carried at considerably lesser weight as well. The 9mm. can be fired repeatedly without a major kickback like that of the 45. Dragonskin can’t be issued until the problem of the disks disslodging is addressed. If you ask me it never will be issued because of the accusatory statemnts of Neal Murray. He has proven to be very unproffesional and does not want to fix the problem therefore he and his company are to blame and not the U.S. ARMY. David you are retarded and should stick to banging your sister instead of acting like a 60’s era activist on this forum trying to blame military for Pinnacle’s incompetent actions and manufacturing. Neal should hire some Americans to fix these problems because from what I’ve seen and heard they are mostly illegal immigrants who don’t care about America’s army.
What I cannot understand is… why does it have to be one or nothing. Why is dragon skin who’s role is clearly defined, being compared to IED resistant vehicles?
even if you are a pissed off soldier, I’m still not seeing the connect. I clearly see that dragon skin is superior. Should we not expect the best for our troops? What’s the argument here?
Wa Wa Wa. Hear me roar my profanity.
Dragonskin=useless
This forum is useless. Just Like Jay is.
I watched a 7.62 round pierce the soft portion of the body armor of a marine standing next to me on post in Iraq. We learned about dragon skin while we were there and and one of my teamates bought himself a dragonskin vest. at 15 yards he fired one round from his own AK into his vest near the kidney area of the front. Without the aid of inserts the round still did not penetrate. better coverage area than inserts and allot less weight. I’m not an armchair general i’m a grunt. I’m going back in less than a year and im bringing this armor with me.
again, take a look at SFTT.org, apparently ARL, in Maryland tested two DS vests about 3 weeks ago. These tests followed FAT protocol for a “high temp” test. The number of shot and placement of the shots for these vests actually exceeded ESAPI specification. It is probably also noteworthy to mention that every single round was defeated, and yes they did use 7.62 x63mm AP2 rounds. The Army is going to have a lot of explaining to do. See the following link for more specifics on this story:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=33
Lemme say something. I am a marine, stationed in Iraq, I am an 0311 rifleman. I hate the flaks we have now with a passion. Ive heard of the problems with the armor in the heat… I hope they would fix it soon. The flaks we wear, are heavy, they destroy your shoulders, eat your hips, bulky, you cant move in it, and god help you if you fall on your back… ever seen a turtle on its back…same thing… personally i wouldnt give two **** if we wore any body armor at all.
I’ve always thought, that if I, or someone was to come up with a product that was a substantial improvement over an existing system that was in widespread use. I figure there would be tremendous resistance from certain individuals and organizations that had deep financial interests as well as political and corporate connections that would go out of their way to protect their interests no matter what the costs.
This is the unfortunate reality of mankind that should be fully expected by anyone planning to launch a new and improved product that can step on the financial toes of big US defense contractors.
When I saw the DS system being demonstrated on TV I was extremely impressed and thought ‚the guy that invented that is going to get a snout full of trouble. I do hope for the sake of the troops that he has skin as thick as a dragon’s. He’s going to need it.
Kaltes I absolutely AGREE with you. BUT, why the ban on soldiers buying it for themselves. It would be hard as hell to replace the armor for the Marines and ARMY single handedly but if every troop was allowed to purchase why shouldnt they. What i dont understand is the active ban on dragon skin Products.
It appears that dragon skin is the best possible protection in an environment devoid of Heat swings and Oil and Diesel immersion
http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf
This my friends, however, is not the desert. Id have to say that id trust Interceptor over SOV in the desert but in any normal urban environment devoid of extreme temperature shifts id go with Dragon skin. The truth appears to be simply this..
The armor is not suited for the desert, and it costs too much anyway. Its hard to replace damaged suits.
Pinnacle is working on a level Five armor but it most likely will suffer from the same problems. If dragon skin is to make it to the front line it would need to be desert, alpine, and snow worthy.
Id trust this jacket with my life if i was a swat team member but not in Iraq, not until the design kinks are worked out. Thats all.
ur all fuking gay with men and u like to lik ur dogs weiner and ballsak
Dragon skin failed because the Army’s tests because it can not be relied upon to protect from any level 3 threat if the armor is exposed to extreme temperatures or conditions. The fact is the armor will fail if it is transported or stored at common temperatures experienced by military equipment. If you are going to be using this armor for yourself in San Diego and will store it at room temperature in you house by all measures it is the best armor. But it is not fit for military use.
PS: Dirka Blaze, you are not only misinformed but you aren’t failing to look at the bigger picture as well.
Well in spite of all the pros an cons about Dragonskin the simple fact remains. Id rather my brothers wear a vest with kinks and flaws than wear no vest at all… And all this crap about our government sending our soldiers to die, yes they are and have bin doing so for hundreds of years, this blood is the price of our freedom and those who died knew this when they signed up for it so stop bitching about it like someone stole something from you. They knew the risk and paid the cost for our happiness through blood an sweat, and their death diserves a more honorable mention than some pety angry rant from someone who didnt get a fat enough check from Uncle Sam.
Bottom Line to all you Soldiers I am not allowed to say I am for or against Dragon Skin.…“I CANNOT” I made my own…I tested it –It works fantastic and will be made Indestrutable soon…I can say –Chose what you think is better you feel more safer with…I will feel safer soon with MY new Armor…
LS Armor(Lorica Segmenta Armor).…That is what I will choose.
If I am not mistaken, the man that developed Interceptor, tested Dragon Skin,and called it “far superior” to his own vest. “If I am getting shot at, I want to be wearing Dragon Skin” is a near-direct quote.
There IS something crazy going on here! Why was DS dismissed, trashed, and banned by the military before it even tested it?