The seemingly-endlessly soap opera behind the new-fangled Dragon Skin body armor has taken yet another plot twist.
In our last episode, Army program managers in charge of a competing body armor system were publicly dissing the Dragon — while they were in the middle of supposedly impartial tests to gauge the armor’s effectiveness. “To anyone considering purchasing an SOV 3000 Dragon Skin — don’t,” one program manager said on an online forum. “I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents.“
But the National Institute of Justice, which has long rated bullet-proofing systems, has come up with a different opinion, according to Soldiers for the Truth. Within a few weeks, the NIJ will formally certify for Level III protection — good enough to stop AK-47 fire. If I’m not mistaken, that would make the Dragon Skin the first soft armor, without plate inserts, to get that high of a rating. And it would certainly call into question the Army managers’ disparaging remarks about the armor — after Dragon Skin went from ballyhooed to banned to grudgingly accepted for testing, all in a matter of months. Stay tuned…
Dragon Skin: Proven Tough?
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It’s a little misleading to call Dragonskin soft armor…It does contain hard inserts, but they are small ‘scales’ (hence the name) making it highly flexible.
It’s always looked very impressive in other tests, and the Army’s failure to accept it seemed stange. Murray Neal (Pinnacle CEO) has always maintained that he offered a superior product which has been rejected because of the distrust of anything ‘not invented here’. Maybe he will be proved right in the end.
So are we to see a return of the headlines of the $10,000 toilet seat, and the $400 ashtrays, along with the other old days of a completely fubar’d testing and procurment system?
One would like to think that the DOD and others involved would want our guys getting shot at, to have stuff that not only works, but is GOOD in REALITY; not what have what seems nice in paper, or skewed tests, or to further one’s career *cough *boeing*cough*…
Who knows.
Again, it goes back to the war economy. Think about Mr. Noble (inventor of TNT?) During the wars of the 1800′s. Both sides bought Explosives off Mr. Noble. Mr. Noble became rich rich off the sales of explosives.
However, if Mr. Noble was french or british then the french/british would have made more taxing Mr. Noble.
If Dranonskin was an americian company, where in the end, it resulted of americians making money off it’s own military again then it would be recommended.
Back long ago (1950/60?) a man wrote a report to the whitehouse saying that if we made and sold our own weapons, and then sold our weapons to other countries, it would be good for our encomy and thus we can make more weapons and sell them cheaper to ourselves. Thus if we encourage war in other countries than we can keep our own weapons cheap/sustainable thus being able to fund a strong military.
So if you think about the 400,000+ troops & National guard in the US, having to buy them ‘new’ superior body armour at about 500 dollars each (I estimate) that’s 200,000,000. At the end of the Fiscal year Pinnacle gives their government x dollars in taxes… that’s a lot of money that doesn’t go back into the USA.
It’s about miliatry sustainablity
Personally, I’m pretty pissed off, as this just basically proves that a few people in positions of power place their wallets before the lives of our soldiers and marines.
If it does formally get certified, and proven effective(which given some friends of mine who are ex-rangers and recommend dragonskin),I really hope that EVERY single general/civilian/etc. that was involved in trying to sabotage the dragonskin armor, loses their jobs/contracts/etc.
What they did, is downright dispicable. For all we know, if our men could have had this stuff from day 1 in Iraq(and yes it was around back that far), hundreds more of our personell would now be alive. The job of these people is first and foremost to ensure the well-being of our military personell, and they utterly failed in that when they put profit before people.
I’ve been following this story since the very beginning of its introduction to the public, and I don’t know who to believe. It seems that all the “independent” tests except that of the Army do favor Pinnacle. Maybe the Army test used special purpose armor piercing rounds that could defeat Dragon Skin.
There is that famous story of the contractor in Iraq, who was wearing a Dragon Skin vest and was shot several times by 7.62 x 39mm bullets and didn’t even feel it. Don’t know if that story is real or another battlefield myth.
I do know that these Dragon Skin vests are difficult to manufacture and are extremely expensive, with the top of the line maximum protection model costing several thousand dollars a piece. Multiply that by 250,000 and you can see that it would not be possible to field this vest in mass.
My only real concern is how dragon skin can handle high speed blast fragments; because I am sure more troops have been killed by fragmentation than bullets to the upper torso.
I know if I went to Iraq as a civilian I would take my chances with an 18 pound SOV 3000 Dragon Skin vest.
Dragonskin is made by an American company based in Fresno, California. The ‘not invented here’ refers to a product not invented by the Army through the pentagon’s R&D budget. The Army didn’t pay Pinnacle to make Dragon Skin. That is my understanding.
Also, like David Hambling said, Dragon skin is not soft armor, it uses hard armor plates, just small ones overlapping one another.
Dragon Skin in clearly inferior to Interceptor for economic reasons. This country is stupid in that politcians are unwilling to discuss economic issues because of “you are putting a price on human life” nonsense. That is why the Army is deprecating Dragon Skin, so Pinnacle can’t do an end-run around the Army through Congress. This is why Dragon Skin is inferior:
(1) Interceptor already provides effective protection. If dragon skin does provide better protection, the differences would be small enough that it wouldnt make a noticable impact in preventing casualties.
(2) Dragon Skin costs many times more than Interceptor, Ive seen over $5k for dragon skin versus about $1k for interceptor.
(3) Damaged interceptor armor can be repaired cheaply by replacing the damaged armor insert that was hit. By contrast, if a dragon skin gets shot, you have to throw the whole thing away and get a new one. You can’t simply replace the “fish scales” in the field.
Cost matters. The more something costs, the less you can have, or if you absolutely must equip the whole force, then you have less of something else. Is it really a good idea to throw billions of dollars at dragon skin, only to leave our infantry short-changed when it comes to other research/training that has to be cut to make up the difference?
ive seen 7.62 miss the plate in a otv and strike someone in the side or shoulder and cause fatal wounding if the dragonskin can cover more area than and sapi plate then put it in some serious testing.
Interceptor can cover just as much or more area than dragon skin, the problem (with both) is that if you wear all the extra armor to cover as much area as possible, it adds considerable weight and troops wont wear it.
The point is going to be moot because the Army is already looking for the next generation of armor, and it is pretty clear that dragon skin won’t get it.
I personally don’t like the dragon skin concept because it is too expensive and too difficult to repair. Maybe it is a good choice for non-combat types who dont ever plan on getting shot, but it isnt a good choice for people who are going into combat.
NIJ Level III isn’t what DoD requires. Even level IV isn’t what DoD requires. The original SAPI plates were level IV, and have been/are being replaced by heavier ESAPI plates to protect against a classified threat.
So Pinnacle finally getting Level III approval hardly means that it’s as great as its advocates claim.
The fact that DragonSkin didn’t have NIJ approval for anything above IIIA when claiming it could stop AP rounds was what initially made me thing pinnacle was pedaling a line of bull, and the fact that their web site was full of demonstrations and testimonials and empty of test results sure didn’t help counter that impression.
It’s a valid question as to whether we are over armoring (and hence overloading) troops, but that isn’t a politically correct question given the media BS.
Ever wonder why Firestone got hammered over exploding tires on Ford Explorers? Ever wonder about congressional ownership of Ford vs. Firestone stock?
The same principle applies here; while it’s not always clear just who benefits from legislative action and govt. contracts, the competition for them is fierce.
One thing that has been clear for a very long time is that soldiers are expendable – that’s part of the job description. Another is that the primary purpose of war is economics. If it didn’t pay, we wouldn’t do it.
Firestone got hammered because it was their tires exploding. It’s not like Ford Explorers magically make their tires explode.
The following comments are based on my discussion with Murray Neal.
Weight-for-weight, a Dragonskin insert will be able to cover more area than a SAPI insert. So Dragonskin will always give better coverage – either the same coverage for less weight, or greater coverage for the same weight.
Crucially, Dragonskin is much, much more robust than hard armor inserts. SAPI inserts are like china – drop one onto concrete and its gone. Dragonskin can be thrown out of a 2nd storey window and driven over by a Jeep without affecting its integrity.
Equally crucially, the flexibility makes it much more wearable. Armor that is not used gives no protection.
The multi-scale nature of Dragonskin also means that it is much better at withstanding multiple, close-spaced hits than conventional inserts. It may not be repairable in the field (neither is a SAPI plate…) but that doesn’t mean it can’t be repaired.
The cost issue is related to production runs. If you ordered a hundred thousand OTVs, the cost would be very much lower.
However, when you look at the many billions going into other projects (no names….) which probably won’t save a single life, and the political sensitivities involved, then a billion on better body armor might be a very shrewd investment.
I have to comment on the Ford Explorer/Firestone trash: The tires were being run on 3/4 of their originally recommended PSI because their original customers were complaining about the less than Cadillac-ride and Ford wanted them to come back.
The question that still remains is does Dragon Skin stop the real threats that our guys face? These are 7.62 x 39mm type BZ (AK-47 Armor Piercing Incendiary), 7.62 x 54R type B-32 (Armor Piecing Incendiary). AK-47 Type M1943 PS Ball is a “NOT” an Armor Piercing Projectile. So far the manufacturer has tapped danced around answering these questions. The other question is what does a Dragon Skin vest weigh? The weights for Interceptor are well known. My guess is that Dragon Skin is heavier, and does not stop AP, so what makes it better? If I had a vest that was lighter, better performing, I would be proud of its’ technical specifications and they would be published. I cannot find anywhere what Dragon Skin weighs. A vest weight by sizes or an areal density weight which is what the armor industry uses to compare different armors. I have seen their promotional video and although appears impressive, would really be impressive if they were shooting real military threat ammunition which is AP. If they really intended to prove anything, they would have submitted their vest to U.S. Test Labs along with a box of Armor Piercing ammunition and then publish the data. That would certainly go along way to clearing the air and prove who is full of crap. What they have done by making unverified claims is to force the military to clamp down on the troops ability to buy any armor other than what the system provides.
Go to their website, they have all the information. I can’t verify the authenticity of the clams though.
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php
“The SOV-3000
Yeah but what Ford never mentioned was that the sway bar links on the explorers would crack partially or just shear in half on a corner because of the steering vs. top heaviness of those SUV’s. Underinflated tires are merely one of the issues, if you think about it someone goes to make an emergency turn or fast lane change and the car just keeps rolling over as the weight shifts, suddenly you have 90% of the vehicle weight on one tire which blows and since the distro is already off it tumbles. The first thing the cops see is the blown tire…
Was under the impression if your vest took hits to the point of damaging the plate, depending on the damage the vest might have to be repaired/thrown away.
The primary factor against Dragonskin is cost. Chainmail was expensive in it’s day too.
For almost 12 years the U.S. Army has been trying to develop Land Warrior Systems that not only protects from small arms but also gives the wearer the ability to carry heavy weight without as much fatigue (basicly a new backpack frame).
This LWS has already cost over one hundred million dollars (not just the suit) and so far only a few of the projects have hit the field (except for testing here in the US).
Our government can not do anything without it costing ten times what it should and taking five times as long as it should to become operational.
If you don’t believe me, ask anyone who has worked in the Pentagon (for more than a few years).
Papa Ray
It all comes down to ‘Does Dragon Skin do what it claims to do?’. Thankfully, the military is finally testing just that, after years of what appear to have been internal politics and conflicts of interest. I just want to see the stuff be given a fair shake, to see if it is more cost-effective than Interceptor, how its effectiveness measures up over-all, and if Pinnacle’s claims are really true.
Dominic, I think you’re going over the top. Soldiers and Marines are being provided more-than-adequate armor protection. As someone else noted, the current ESAPIs and side SAPIs provide NIJ Level IV protection at the least. Also, the vest I was wearing (Paraclete MTV, not Interceptor) could barely fit the ESAPI plates, and as a result they fell out on numerous occasions when I was donning or doffing my body armor. Several times they landed on pavement or concrete, and they never broke.
If they were going to go after an NIJ certification that would actually prove something, they should have tested Dragon Skin against the NIJ Level IV test, which uses the 30.06 AP M2. Then show off the multi-hit capabilities that it has. That would be a test which is hard to argue with. From what I know about armor, there are no new materials out there that would allow for lighter armor. So, if Dragon Skin uses “scales” they will have to overlap at least 30% so that would make Dragon Skin at least 30% heavier than anything else that defeats the same threat projectile. So if I have a vest that weighs 30 lbs, Dragon Skin will wind up weighing 40 lbs or more. That is not better in my book. If you made the Interceptor ESAPI armor 30% thicker/heavier to equal the weight of Dragon Skin, how much better would it work? I say show me a Dragon Skin vest with the same coverage and weight and then test it head to head with what the Army is buying and see which one is better. Things need to be equal to have a fair test, with weight reduction being the most needed by the troops. As far as flexible, that is kind of a myth, since this stuff is heavy it will not be flexible in reality. A pile of steel chain is flexible in theory, but in reality it is impractical the same way that dragon skin is impractical. I say a set of this stuff recently, a contractor going to Iraq bought a set and I put it on. I could not see what it offered compared to the Interceptor with all the plates other than it was more streamlined. His Dragon Skin vest was not rated to stop any Armor Piercing rounds, the SO 2000 model. It was just as heavy as the Interceptor but without AP protection. I could only imagine how much heavier the SO 3000 AP version would weigh!
“So are we to see a return of the headlines of the $10,000 toilet seat, and the $400 ashtrays, along with the other old days of a completely fubar’d testing and procurment system?”
That never went away.
I have, on my desk, a piece of T-6 aluminum tube about four inches long, tapered on one end and flared on the other. It is nothing special, is not machined, but it cost over $2000 per Fed Log, and confirmed by the two we had to order.
All it does is spread open a shaft boot for installation.
A local machine shop will machine me a better, stronger, industrial nylon bullet tool for under 200 bucks that won’t crush when stepped on or ding when dropped. This is not unusual.
I was just watching future weapons,and the Dragon Skin seems to be the real deal.It stoped AP223 rounds from an AK and 9mm.Keep in mind the hit the vest with over 20 rounds and none went through.To top it off,the laied the vest over a frag grenade and set it off.While the front of the vest was mangled,nothing penetrated.Very impressive if you asked me,
It appears the military is has a bias about Dragon Skin, similar to the M-16, it is about time they embrace this life saving technology and invest in the welfare of our troops. The future requires that we open up the system and not continually fight progress, did you see the Discovery Channel special , 5.56 ap and 7.62 ap a close range, multiple hits…If we had the draft you can bet the public would be mandating congressional hearing on why their sons and daughters were not provided with this new technology. Maybe tomorrow Dragon Skin will be there for our troops!
We need to do what is best for our troops and that may ultimately be met buy combining the strength of both designs into new body armor that is superior to either current design. The trade offs of ballistic protection, body area coverage, weight, flexibility, body temperature regulation, serviceability, production capacity, and cost all need to be considered. From what I
We need to do what is best for our troops and that may ultimately be met buy combining the strength of both designs into new body armor that is superior to either current design. The trade offs of ballistic protection, body area coverage, weight, flexibility, body temperature regulation, serviceability, production capacity, and cost all need to be considered. From what I
I’ve dployed several times to the AOR with the Interceptor vest and I’ve done some reserch on the Dragon Skin and the Dragon skin seems to have better ballistic protection with out the plates and equal/better protection with the plates, while being able to withstand more hits. Now let me tell you, I like having the protection of the vest but can you imagine what it feels like wearing 20 pounds of vest in 110+ degree temps. plus the normal gear? Even if this vest is only equal to the Interceptor but lighter, thiner, more flexable I’m all for it. I would like to know one thing though, Pinnicale Armor doesn’t say on it’s web site how much it costs. They have an order form but no prices. Anyone know where I could price/purchase one?
If dragon skin is as tough as interceptor or more so it would definitely be worth the money… just for the fact that it is flexible… you know how hard it is too shoot in the prone with interceptor and plates inserts… can’t get comfortable so it becomes harder make accurate shots
I watched Future Weapons on the Discovery channel
on Monday 22, 2007. The program showed the the vest withstanding many hits from 7.62 and 5.56 steel cored bullets. The vest took the hits with no problems.
They ran a test where a dummy wearing the vest was placed on a hand grenade face down. They blow up the grenade and checked the damage. There was no damage to inside cover of the vest.
Check out the show. Lets protect our troops!
Reason Dragon skin is not standard issue is because it is more expensive and is not mass produced like the interceptor is. it is 5 times the cost but with military recruitment down maybe they should spend the extra green and protect who we got over there I plan on joining out of college and I’d rather use my own money and by Dragon skin then use the issued stuff.
Ray, in response to your post, the Dragon Skin vests are going for around $5000 dollars a unit. My brother who is a marine and member of the 1st Force Recon Co. was telling me that they will be testing these vests within the next couple of weeks. This price might just be representative of how much it will cost the military per unit, so as for civilian price, i’m not sure. Hope this helps though.
$5,000 vest or a $400,000 check to mom? If you ran the military, which would you rather pay?
The dragon Skin body armor has been banned by the Army becuase they havent tested it yet.Sounds like a bunch of Gen. are trying to cover for whoever’s supplying the intercepter vest.Idiots! They aren’t the ones fighting and dying!
does neone know where i can order dragon skin? i’ve got till’ august when i head to iraq and i’ll b looking to buy some
i have a dragon skin vest for sale: medium size, but will be a better fit for a guy who wears a small interceptor. full torso protection, with dragon skin groin, collar and shoulder protectors. to be more bulletproof, you have to be in a humvee.
My brother said that dragon skin is not allowed in his unit in Iraq. He is not reupping for that reason.
jason has a vest for sale but does not say how much or how to contact him
Down to the nut cutting. Has anyone out there worn dragon skin? Has anyone worn it for long periods of time; all day, every day, for a year? If so, what kind of carrier was it in? How did it wear? Has anyone seen any testing stats? if so, where? Has anyone been shot while wearing dragon skin? How did it perform? Were you able to get it repaired? All the conversation and venting is great, but can anyone provide more then “a friend of a friend of my cousin told my brother that….”?
I’m a contractor in Iraq and I’m looking to buy armor. Cold, hard, personnal accounts would really help here. As for price, I had to call a sales rep to get actual prices, no the order form doesn’t have it. BTW if you wear XL or above, add 26% to the cost. Yes it’s expensive, but is it worth it? Can anyone help me out here?
I would just like to comment about the state of what we are going to the field in Iraq wearing. I am an Lance Corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. On my upcoming deployment to Iraq I will be wearing the interceptor otv not in the desert brown color, but in the old woodland camo pattern. Supply had a groin protector, but did not have the throat or shoulder protectors. I would also like to add for the benefit of those talking about the coverage of the interceptor that the shoulder, throat, and groin attachments are not rated for ballistics. That is a big deal when that is where the snipers and insurgents aim because they no the SAPI plates don’t protect there. I don’t know what the answer is. Dragon skin sounds like it could be the real deal (the Discovery Channel’s spot on the system was unbelievable), but without the research from a Pinnacle-free/Military free testing group it isn’t proven. All I know is that when I get to Iraq myself and 75-80% of the Marines in my unit will stick out like sore thumbs because of the inadequate nature of the military’s supply. I really hope SAPI plates and the interceptor are better that dragon skin, because it looks like we are going to need them to be.
Please cut thru this bullshit and give us a price and a source for basic protection and two upgrades. IF you want to sell this stuff quit concealing the price.
I read in an internet article that a complete suit of Dragon Skin armor runs for more than $5,000. This includes a protective collar, an optional weight bearing rig, optional lightweight SAPI plates, backpack plates, and an armored protective blanket. However, the basic Dragon Skin vest for torso protection alone, costs about $2,000.
Comparing anything that the army/marines have to the dragon skin is like comparing a crushed soda can to somethign as strong as a block of steel. The dragon skin can take dozens of hits from AK rounds and provices 221% more coverage from rifle rounds than the interceptor and modular body armor (the new one made by the marines). The Interceptor and MTV still rely on SAPI plates, which can only take three shots and turn into gravel afterwards. dragon skin is also extremely flexible, the interceptor with SAPI plates and the modular tactical vest is not. What really makes me mad is that the Army tested dragon skin a while ago and sabotaged the tests, saying that they were inferior to the interceptor. Go on YouTube and type in “Dragon skin” and watch the FutureWeapons episode about dragon skin. Speaks for itself. If you’re in the armed services, you can’t buy dragon skin either. The military fears that you will buy inferior body armor and they will not let you use it/court marshal you, so don’t think about bringing in dragon skin to theater =(.
ok cutting through the bullshit here, dragon skin can come in different configurations. You can customize the vest by selecting the amount of rifle protection. The best dragon skin vest you can buy from pinnacle.com which will offer basically the entire vest as rifleproof except for the shoulder straps will cost you about 5000 dollars. There are no SAPI plates, no armored blankets like metioned below. Just a bad ass vest that is far superior to anything the army currently fields to its troops.
ok cutting through the bullshit here, dragon skin can come in different configurations. You can customize the vest by selecting the amount of rifle protection. The best dragon skin vest you can buy from pinnacle.com which will offer basically the entire vest as rifleproof except for the shoulder straps will cost you about 5000 dollars. There are no SAPI plates, no armored blankets like metioned below. Just a bad ass vest that is far superior to anything the army currently fields to its troops.
This dragon skin stuff seems badass. I am a US Marine and it’s way better then anything we are offered it’s just too expensive for the government to put it to use with US troops. Don’t believe anything the Army says they can’t do anything right anyway. The interceptor vest are very uncomfortable especially when you are humping (marching) with a 100 lbs on your back and your rifle. This armor would be such a great weapon to protect US forces but will not be put into production for the government for another 15-20 years if at all. Yes military troops can buy the armor themselves and use it. I thought that you couldn’t also but I asked a higher up in my chain of command and he said that it’s up to your command to use it but he’s never seen any Marine have a problem bringing in his own protective equipment.
I agree the Dragonskin is very expensive and hasn’t been tested for longer periods of military use.
I don’ get the point. What’s so great about dragon skin? It weights 17.4 in its level III configuration. An interceptor weights about 20 pounds with side plates with protection level IV. The Dragon skin might be more flexible but is that really worth 5000$ each? Another point is the reliability. A history channel test and some cool videos from their homepage are not really convincing. The IBA is not perfect but the army would be stupid introducing dragon skin because it costs a lot of money and wouldn’t be a real better protection than the interceptor. The choice between interceptor/ MTV and dragon skin is more a question of comfort than protection. And as you all know the army won
Hans, then what is convincing? Dragon skin SOV-3000 vest CAN take level IV rounds many times more than the SAPI plate of an interceptor can, it weights about 10 pounds lighter (19 pounds) than a fully configured interceptor w/ side and front/back places (30 pounds), clearly offers superior protection and coverage against rifle rounds. That’s obviously why it costs 3000$ more than the interceptor. You think an interceptor can stop 120 9mm rounds or 20 AK rounds in a small area?
You asked what is convincing then, perhaps NIJ level IV certification? The ESAPI plates can also take several AK hits and I
I’ve never seen a single reason to mistrust in DragonSkin. I’ve talked to combat veterans of the army AND marines, not to mention watched multiple demonstrations of the armor, and there is no reason to think that the protection is even remotely close to that offered by the interceptor. Yes, the interceptor system can take hits just as well but after about 3-4 rounds from a 7.62 anywhere in the same quadrant of the vest, your protection is almost gone. I watched dragonskin take 30 9mm, 30 5.56, and 30 7.62 rounds back to back from 30 feet back and not have a single penetration.
Yes, of course, cost is an issue. At multiple times the cost of current body armor, it’s not going to be implimented by the military anytime soon, if at all… But don’t knock it cause of its cost. It’s high price tag doesn’t diminish its ability to stop lead. Not to mention, as long as its not heavier… who truly cares if it’s a whole bunch lighter as long as its more flexible and can take a substantial beating?
My cousin is an army ranger, im an army paratrooper, and my grandfather was a marine in korea, and not a single one of us thinks that weight matters vs. protection. Throw in a less ridged plate system, and it matters even less. The only REAL issue you can have with this system is its cost.
I work for the DoD in acquistions. I have been with this agency for over 30 years. All I have to say is politics have never played as large a role in purchasing “stuff” than it does now. Rumsfeld (I thank any and everybodyand advocate buying stock in whatever contractor he has charged for shredding services) and his bunch (those who have not moved on to the various contractors), has removed any and all quality requirements and competetion from selected sourced items. Personal protection equipment is but one class of items that are off limits in certain cases. The contracts go to friends of the adminsitration. Sorry if some readers don’t want to believe the truth. This guys in charge are very scary. The facts are these. If the Army were to provide a R&D contract for Dragon Skin, the costs would come down. Beleive me, there is no doubt as to what the guys in the field would wear. And for the Army to disallow the wearing of it is more reason to use it.
tne cost of this stuff shouldn’t even be an issue. If it work as well as it looks, then think about how many soldiers that this could save from injury or death. If it can take 90 bullets (and it can) to the back without penetration then not even aside from the clear and immediate benifets to our soldiers then it will also pay for itself tenfold in averted medical expense and lower the pressure for new recuits.
This vest for one will stop ak-47 rounds!Who in the world makes a vest that can stop penetration from a hand-grenade (as seen on futureweapons)?I
think this vest should and will be standard issue.
Dragonskin is the future and the interceptor will be the past.As any active-duty/veteran will tell you use the best or die like the rest.
This vest is the best in the world.I have used it and a lot more army buddies are catching on.The probability of being killed by one or two rounds to the torso is elliminated.Big props to pinnacle for raising the bar in armor.I can’t wait until pinnacle comes out with an AK-47 proof helmet or have they?
By far, the best body armor seems to be air resistence and gravity-U.S get out of Iraq!
The dragonskin is the subject of this page.However when a faggot says “air-resistance”and “gravity” are better than any armor I believe he should have to prove it.T this is an American page maybe you should get back to your job at your local 7-11.You sand ninny.
I’m with old choptop, T should be beaten severly.This sand ninny (great insult choptop)should be banned from this post.Anyhow I have had the dragoskin vest for about 1/2 year.I look forward to using it in any combat sittuation I get into in Iraq since I deploy sometime this year.
I ship out in the “near future” or thats all I am “allowed” to say at this time, all I can say I is that I am in the Army and I am not sure what to do, I don’t want to invest in the armor just to have it taken away, any advice from a more experienced soldier?
hey everyone,
i just found out that my boyfriend will be deployed soon. he mentioned that his vest with the ceramic plates aren’t as good as dragonskin, so i was thinking about getting him a tactical vest. can any of you guys out there please give me some more information on what i should get for him and from where? he needs to come back and i just want to do waht i can.
have a great day, guys.
hey everyone,
i just found out that my boyfriend will be deployed soon. he mentioned that his vest with the ceramic plates aren’t as good as dragonskin, so i was thinking about getting him a tactical vest. can any of you guys out there please give me some more information on what i should get for him and from where? he needs to come back and i just want to do waht i can.
have a great day, guys.
Order dragonskin from pinnacle armor.You can find the order info at the bottom of their homepage.I hope this is helpfull because this is a very important personal mission of mine.I have survived hits from rifles that killed some very good friends.I wish I had a better way of saying it, but my buds and I are very pissed that some of America’s toughest young men are dying from shots to the chest and back when all I had were bruises not much worse than what a paintball gun would do.If that isn’t a reason to use Dragonskin I don’t know what is.
as light as polyestr.lol?……
as light as polyestr.lol?……
as light as polyestr.lol?……
Haha, how many vests has this disgruntled vest mfg actually sold? So his magic vest didn’t past US Government muster, and now he floods this message board with troll kiddies and wannabes.
Some of these comments are so friggen made up its ridiculous.
@AHS and your BF being deployed to iraq.
go to http://www.pinnaclearmor.com and look for the “Order application” PDF file or whatever it was called. print it out and fill it out, then mail it to the company. i think your BF should buy the SOV-3000, its stronger than the SOV-2000 and make sure that you configure the scales so that they provide the most coverage (yes, they have options about the amount of anti-rifle coverage you can get for the vest). it’ll cost you a lot though, so better start savin those nickels.
and @ melon
if you dont accept the fact that the dragon skin SOV 3000 is the best body armor for the torso in the world, you’re sadly mistaken. period.
Melon, the dragon skin SOV-2000 tests failed the army tests either because of sabotage from the testers in order to save the army money because of their already-established contract with the company that makes their body armor, or because they fired level IV rounds into the level III SOV-2000. Level III is AK bullet, and level IV is AK bullet but bigger (like the bullet of an SVD dragunov) or a high velocity M16 (5.56X45mm) round. The plates that the army gives out to its troops are level IV, and can stop 3 rounds of level IV threat. Howeverm the SOV-3000 can stop dozens of level IV rounds. Either way, the level IV SOV-3000 vest defeats all level IV threats with ease, and i bet if you got yourself into a war you’d be scrambling to pinnacle’s website to order a DragonSkin vest unless you want to die wearing inferior armor. I do understand, however, that its unrealistic to field this to all the troops. would cost the pentagon a LOT of money. Still, it pisses me off that the US military confiscates these if troops wear them.
Melon, these vest were not tested by the GOVERNMENT when they were labeled as “ineffective” they were tested by the ARMY. Siunce then, the SOV-2000 has gained level III certification from the GOVERNMENT National Institute of Justice and the SOV-3000 is in the process of getting a level IV certification. you should do your homework before you slander a breakthrough in technology that cna save lives of human beings. its people like you who @#%@ everything up.
melon is a bitch with no credentials.his name is melon cause that is the only thing that will have sex with him(unwillingly of course).the vest kicks the teeth out of all its competitors and this is from technology that is well developed by people who actually give a damn about our troops/officers/government officials.
Amen.
Well, it looks like Dragon Skin has had another free publicity showing on the Discovery Channel, so I guess I just have to make another comment. They showed the “Skin” being shot with the AK, ammo type not specified as usual. The best scene was the grenade explosion. If you go to you tube and look at the video, the grenade looks to be blue in color. This is significant since they didn’t say which grenade type was being used, it appears that they packed some type of low order explosive or gunpowder in a training hand grenade. The explosive force of a specification US grenade either HE or Frag would have propelled the dummy much further into the air. This marketing stunt reminds me of “Dynamite Man” that used to come to the county fair and “blow” himself up inside of a cardboard box. It looked very impressive but was just smoke and mirrors. I am throwing the bull$hit flag on this one. With these type of marketing tactics, if you are considering purchasing I would be afraid, be very afraid. I also have on good account that the SO3000 in size XL (same size as large for everyone else) weighs 47 Lbs. So much for lightweight.
william they specified 7.62X39mm. listen to the host say 7.62x39mm over and over. furthermore, dragon skin SOV-3000 offers up to level V protection. that’s right, V, not just IV. It will stop the armor piercing incindiary rounds. pinnaclearmor.com has the ballistic chart you can check it out. and if you think they BSing about level V protection, flexible armor, and ability to take dozens of hits (as opposed to 3 per plate for ESAPI plates), then go ahead and sue them. william the bottom line is, dragon skin SOV-3000 is the best body armor out there right now. maybe in a couple years the army will make some exoskeleton that can help the soldiers carry hundreds of pounds while at the same time, providing protection. but for now, nothing compares to dragon skin in respect to rifle protection area, multiple hit survivability, and flexibility.
and it doesn’t weigh 47 pounds. iono where youre getting your info from. everythin is on pinnaclearmor.com. again, if you think that they are BS, sue them then if you’re that confident
william you think you are an expert?!!!!
1.you think an XL vest weighs 47 lbs
2.you think there is no specification on future weapons AK rounds (when clearly there are).
3.you think life saving tactics are “marketing tactics”.
4.you dont know a god damn thing about what its like to have someone shoot at you and the whole time be thinking that your standard issue armor will not stop any AK rounds no matter what type they are.
CONGRATULATIONS you have qualified to be an expert in this countries government.
right on choptop this douche(william) must be in government.
Calm down children. Swearing and name calling does not help your cause. You can print anything you want on a webpage or brochure. No I am not in the government. I did wear body armor for many years during my military career. I also learned quite a bit about ballistics. You guys don’t even know which bullets are considered Armor Piercing by the military. The current threats on the battlefield 7.62 x 54R Type B32 API @ 2880 FPS, 7.62 x 39mm Type BZ API @ 2400 FPS are two predominant threat rounds. These are the “real” Armor Piercing rounds. Lead core and Mild Steel core Ak rounds are considered ball rounds by the military. There have been a lot of armor companies mis-representing their armor’s stopping power by telling customers that the AK 7.62 x 39mm type M1943 PS Ball (Mild Steel Core) is an AP threat and then pushing one of their armor plates that stops this ball round as being capable of stopping AP. The NIJ classifies any rifle round containing steel in its’ construction as being a Level IV threat. This can be a steel jacket or steel core. However, this is a gross misrepresentation of the truth, and the uninformed can be sold an inferior product. The NIJ uses the 30.06 M2AP as the defining threat for true Level IV. If Dragon Skin can stop this AP threat, all they have to do is submit it to the NIJ for testing. This has nothing to do with the military. They can also have it independently tested at the Prestigeous, world recognized, H.P. White Laboratories, or U.S. Test Labs. This would go along way towards dispelling all the arguments. An independent test would also ensure that no one monkeys with the results, so they cannot use the Army as a scapegoat if it fails. If I were going to purchase this product, I would ask to see the independent test data. All reputable companies happily supply this data to their customers upon request. The test data will provide the size and sample weight also. That way you will know what the true weight of the armor is and not what is printed on some brochure.
My brother in arms is right the armor us soldiers are issued would not hold up to a full scale assault.It is a shame that soldiers self purchased supperior armor is being confiscated in most cases.I’m also a member of the Texas Warriors who fought very hard for this country and its time this government looked into better armor instead of worrying about losing money from their own companies that don’t give a shit about who dies because of it’s inferior quality.
boo hoo they are calling me(william)names, it is obvious who the real soldiers are.you just keep getting info from nay sayers and the death toll rises every day.if you are or ever had been a military man you would see the benefit of this armor.not only have you made an ass of yourself,you are also trying to make an ass of vets who have fought in this war.the info you keep pointlessly trying to post is copyrighted material.
Grow up Chotop. If you really want to see Dragon Skin succeed, then you would want to see the test data. That way you could prove your conspiracy theory. By the way, Titanium disc platelet armor was first done by the Soviets, and we recovered some in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. It caused great concern since we thought they had a technology that would make our jobs tougher. But US ammunition made short work of it in testing. It looked very much like Dragon Skin too. So much for new technology.
if you really cared about vets willie you would advocate any and all armor that is fairly tested.I am a police officer and we have been testing the vests extensively.so far we have tested 9mm .45cal. as well as 30/06 and even a couple of 50.cal.sniper rifles have been tested that we acquired. ONLY THING THAT PENETRATED THE VEST WAS THE 50CAL AT 300 YARDS.we tested the 9mm.,.45cal,30/06 at ranges of no further than 15 yards at all angles and have yet to penetrate any of the vests.exactly how do you get off saying these vests weigh 47lbs.all of the vests vests we are exprimenting with (all XL level V protection)have weighed less than the interceptors.the reason you are being called names is because you think you know it all and have never even done any real research about the vests other than list calibers and so called reasons (clearly no good excuses)as to why our military can’t use the revolutionary armor.also the testing is being done in a manner in which all law enforcement/military can test these vest for real instead of dissing the level III vests that are for handguns and light rifle rounds.this test will soon be on the web and may provide further insight as to why the vest is so controversial.hope to have the testing with close up specifications of the rounds on the web soon.
So how much does it weigh? and how much rifle protection coverage does it provide in square inches? What Armor Piercing projectiles have you fired and stopped, and what velocities?
Thanks, William
what war were you in william because it sounds like your copyrighted material just ousted you as a fraud.by the way I am a vietnam vet you werent even in any battle or even light conflict so I suggest you stop posting faggety material and have some respect for people who want soldiers to survive this war.by the way you act like you served in the military yet you sight an afghanistan/soviet war you must be a terrorist piece of shit.
All you have to do is put it on a scale. How much does it weigh? Anyone on this forum actually have a Dragon skin vest?
the report on all this info ‘william’ should be released as soon as possible.im not the judge on these tests but is seems to me that compared to interceptor the dragonskin is far supperior. for instance the interceptor was useles after only 10 rounds of the.45cal. and the dragonskin held up with absolutely no penetration to 10 rounds form the 9mm., 10 rounds of the .45cal. and amazingly 10 rounds of the 30/06.this vest was truly amazing we through every thing we had at them and there was no penetration.next week we will be testing assault rifles/high explosives on the new vests and I can’t wait.and yet again this will be on the web very soon so don’t get your panties in a rut.I’ll post it on here where you can see it soon.
for your latest comment the XL vests weigh I believe 19.5 lbs.
Ok, I guess I will have to wait until you post the results. Are you planning on including weights and measurements? The Interceptor weights have gone up with the addition of the new ESAPI plates which are heavier and the side plates. Make sure you list the Interceptor weights. What type grenades will be used for the frag tests?
what the hell man I had the vest and was ordered to give it up for a shoddy used interceptor and that really made me resent joining the army.all in all I am reading all of this and you have to be obsessed with discrediting these vests without any knowledge of the tests that were done.
I never said grenades. I said high explosives which I have not been told who will be doing the explosive tests.It could be grenades or it could be dynamite or any other thing that would blow the crap out of the vest.And yes we will be using weights/measurements/velocities/everything that any other vests are tested by.I am seeing why you seem to be this forums punching bag a light one at that.
william seems to be too interested in a vest that he claims is not worth the lives of soldiers who actually fight and die wearing second rate armor.Anyhow I can’t wait to see this armor in the future along with our military combat systems.We’ll see what william has to say then.My guess is that it will be something like “I’m gay please don’t hurt me”.
I have plenty of buddies who can no longer use their armor of choice because of the stink Pinnacle caused along with another vendor. They spent plenty to get lighter weight armor, and now it sits collecting dust. I also know some people who liked the DS and bought some to only have to wait for it to show up and they are having to use level III armor in the mean time. I spent a career in the military, and was involved in body armor development for my unit, when the Army was still using the PASGT frag vest. I also worked extensively on special purpose ammuntion development. So my friends that know me who are either still on active duty or working as contractors call me all the time about what body armor to buy. I just buried a good friend at Arlington last Thursday, so do I care, yes, so I will pry into this thing and make my own judgements and give my honest opinion to the guys who expect me to give them a good answer. I have two hash marks on my sleeve, and a combat patch. Three destroyed disks from jump injuries and falling out of a little bird, and was shot twice wearing armor. So I have a little perspective. I have asked for information and all I get is fancy videos, so I will throw the BS flag when necessary. I also don’t like to see soldiers get hurt. I have not seen this armor shot in person. We used HP White for all our lab tests and some times Aberdeen would shoot stuff for us. I have seen more slick marketing that didn’t mean squat when the rounds went downrange. I have kicked many a vendor out, when the performance did not equal the marketing claims. I had plenty of access to classified capabilities while on active duty and worked with many scientists from Aberdeen, Sandia Labs, etc. There are no new materials. So big claims get big scrutiny. It comes with the territory.
william I thought you were the expert on weights/ measurements.Why dont you have the comparison of interceptor vs. dragonskin?Ohh!!! thats right your in government and don’t have to speak about the facts.DRAGONSKIN KICKS ASS{.}{.})
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Hey Will sorry about the loss I am a marine from Texas and am very hostile about people who think they are entitled to discredit things that could be benefitial to soldiers.That being said you or anyone would have to admit that the Army tests were not efficient or evidential or even filmed or released so therefore any one person can’t truly credit or discredit dragonskin.There have got to be more tests done no matter what.America is at war with terror and trust me the war I’ve seen aint over by a long shot.
CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?Actually no we can’t and that’s why these forums are important.People reading these posts will hopefully catch on and spread the word that our country needs to do more defense technology testing and not just discredit something because it wouldn’t be in their financial interests.Everybody knows that the dragonskin tests done by the army were laughable at best because you dont take a level 3 vest fill it with AK rounds and then try to pass it off as the level 5 vests.
Dragonskin should be researched more and with the help of law enforcement/military there will be more .The tests by the military can’t always be released and that is an advantage for government run companies who would rather have (possibly)cheaper/less durable vests just to save a little green for themselves.Everyone should encourage new defense technology but,when the tests are being done by people or companies who are going to discredit anything that they don’t support it is very wrong and very unpatriotic.
Dragonskin should be researched more and with the help of law enforcement/military there will be more .The tests by the military can’t always be released and that is an advantage for government run companies who would rather have (possibly)cheaper/less durable vests just to save a little green for themselves.Everyone should encourage new defense technology but,when the tests are being done by people or companies who are going to discredit anything that they don’t support it is very wrong and very unpatriotic.
Dragonskin should be researched more and with the help of law enforcement/military there will be more .The tests by the military can’t always be released and that is an advantage for government run companies who would rather have (possibly)cheaper/less durable vests just to save a little green for themselves.Everyone should encourage new defense technology but,when the tests are being done by people or companies who are going to discredit anything that they don’t support it is very wrong and very unpatriotic.
guys,stop fighting here. it’s useless. right now, dragonskin SOV 3000 is being tested by the NIJ for an OFFICIAL LEVEL IV certification. let’s just see when sov-3000 dragon skin will get this rating. this should shut up william and the other naysayers. level IV covers everything thaqt william claims can shoot through dragon skin. true, level IV rounds can shoot through dragon skin SOV-2000.but when sov-3000 dragon skin is level IV certified, the debate will be over.
by the way
FRIDAY APRIL 6, 2007
HISTORY CHANNEL SHOW CALLED MAIL CALL will feature dragon skin (sov-2000 i think). tune in
Thanks for the tip Sean.I’ll definately watch it.I would recomend William watch it as well since he is so skeptical.I can’t wait to get my Dragonskin and put it to use.KICK ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will be waiting. The lightest weight armor that has demonstrated the ability to stop the 30.06 APM2 at 2900 FPS weighs 6.5 lbs per square foot. That is for Boron Carbide ceramic. Since Dragon Skin is using a different ceramic which is much heavier, and the discs have to overlap to eliminate the gaps, reaching that low weight will be impossible. The current Interceptor areal density is 1.1 lbs for the soft armor + 7.4 lbs for the hard armor = 8.4 lbs per square foot of coverage. An average Interceptor with front and back plates and two side plates ballistic weight is 29 lbs. According to information posted on this website, the SOV 2000 was 2 lbs heavier at 19.5 lbs than the old interceptor which was 17 lbs. The Pinnacle website says that the SOV 3000 weighs 19.5 lbs. Is this the correct weight for the full coverage SOV 3000 since this is the same weight that the SOV 2000 used to weigh also?
I will be waiting. The lightest weight armor that has demonstrated the ability to stop the 30.06 APM2 at 2900 FPS weighs 6.5 lbs per square foot. That is for Boron Carbide ceramic. Since Dragon Skin is using a different ceramic which is much heavier, and the discs have to overlap to eliminate the gaps, reaching that low weight will be impossible. The current Interceptor areal density is 1.1 lbs for the soft armor + 7.4 lbs for the hard armor = 8.4 lbs per square foot of coverage. An average Interceptor with front and back plates and two side plates ballistic weight is 29 lbs. According to information posted on this website, the SOV 2000 was 2 lbs heavier at 19.5 lbs than the old interceptor which was 17 lbs. The Pinnacle website says that the SOV 3000 weighs 19.5 lbs. Is this the correct weight for the full coverage SOV 3000 since this is the same weight that the SOV 2000 used to weigh also?
william you know why the dragon skin SOV’s are heavier than interceptor? cuz they cover a shitload more area of the torso from rifle fire with those hard scales. it’s so obvious its funny to argue with you. just wait william, once it gets that rating, we’ll see what you have to say. b patient, will.
I don’t know why you guys are ducking the question about how much Dragon Skin weighs in the Level IV version. So far all we get is more promises of the next certification or the next video. Does anyone here on the forum have a SOV 3000? If you do, please weigh an actual vest and tell us what it weighs.
Well the weight issue is quite funny, because on pinnacle
by the way the weight for the dragon skin SOV-3000′s i listed are with FULL TORSO WRAP (maximum area of the scales). just to be clear.
SOV:
34 lb is with respiratory protection and torso wrap. 29lb is only with torso wrap which is more comparable to the IBA’s coverage.
Comparing an extra heavy version to a standart version is nonesense.
The IBA (medium)with ESBI weights 25,7lb.
OTV:7,7
ESAPI: 10,9lb
ESBI: 7,1lb
https://peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/IBA.pdf
The new I-OTV is 3 pounds lighter.
You have to question yourself Will you post so much nay-sayin’ material but you have no facts.By the way I posted that the XL vest weighs 19.5Lbs and you bit like a fish you are so gullable.You seem to take everyones word and post it as fact
you are I was waiting for you to post material that I made up just so I could prove you know nothing.I’m the cop who just busted William as a fraud.
Give up William you just post things that you look up on the net.Other people are involved in the experimentation of this armor and don’t have to make up things just to sound like they are experts.
David are you a liberal? Because you use their smear tactics to try to confuse the facts when someone asks a legitmate question that you don’t like. Your comment about baiting me is a pretty weak cover story for your outright lies, now that someone else posted the real armor weights. You guys can use all the smoke and mirrors you want but eventually the truth will come out. If Dragon Skin achieves Level IV certification that will be an accomplishment. Like I said before, I look past the slick marketing, and just would like to know some facts about the armor performance and weights. You guys just insist on trying to pick a a fight. I just wanted my questions answered. So that I could give my opinion to those who have asked for it. At this juncture, I cannot really give them one, since nobody wants to state the facts, but they do want me to wait until the next marketing video comes out. Just remember that the Federal Trade Commision enforces the truth in advertising laws.
Youi guys here are the facts. Interceptor is slightly weighs less than SOV-3000. But, you know, dragon skin is much more flexible and can take more shots (obviously, come on you guys you know this is true. Esapi plates are designed for 3 level IV rounds whereas SOV-3000 cn take more than three for sure). IF i were in a war, I would go with the SOV because I don’t care if its 5 or 6 pounds heavier i want the 88% more area protection for my torso vs rifle rounds than offered by interceptor. plus it is flexible. William if you were in a war what armor would you pick? I aint picking a fight witnh you i want your opinion. the draft is a very possible scenario in the future and i’m just wondering if you’ll take the military’s issue or buy your own from pinnacle.
One would come to expect that an armor which offers much better protection and resilience would weigh more. like the man said, its only a couple pounds heavier. I could lift 5 pounds with my pinkie. I’d pick SOV for sure. clearly much better hit endurance (takes more hits) and more flexible. Also, Dragon skin armor scales produce 50% less trauma from the bullet than ESAPI plates.
Hi Biz, I have seen the DS stop the ball rounds. However, a lot more AP ammo has shown up in theater so the threat has escallated beyond what the SOV 2000 is capable of stopping. This was also the case when Pinnacle declared that Dragon Skin was superior to Interceptor, but they were behind the times. The original SAPI specs were developed in the 90′s and were pretty good for the times. The Clinton administration took all the money out of the budget so very few were in the system when we went to war. Production went full blast until it was determined that the plates designed for open field combat were not robust enough for the Close Quarters Battle our guys were faced with. The army procured several thousand BALCS plates which do stop AP on the SOCOM armor contract until the ESAPI plates could be tested in conjunction with OTV. ESAPI was already being fielded when Pinnacle started up a stink that DS was better than Interceptor. The only problem was that they were comparing DS capabilities to the old SAPI plates, Believe me when I tell you that if Dragon Skin were the hyperleap in technology that they claim, every military in the world would be knocking at their door and one or more of the large armor companies would be trying to buy it or at least team up with Pinnacle. The government spends tons of money on R & D, so does industry, every ceramics manufacturer, fiber and textile company is looking for the next break in technology, because they will make a lot of money when the get something that is an improvement. You don’t see anymore steel helmets ever since the first kevlar one came out do you? The old steel pot cost like $30 bucks and the kevlar costs uncle sam almost $500 each, so where is the argument about the army is too cheap to buy expensive armor? How much is one set of night vision, $4,000? One IR sniper scope costs $60,000, Every soldier has night vision goggles, so I don’t think that money is the issue here. Don’t get sucked into the baloney that the reason you don’t get issued Dragon Skin is because of some conspiracy about money or someone is protecting their ass. I know for a fact that SOCOM has had a standing request for better armor for years. They just held an armor conference soliciting new technology, did Dragon Skin show up for it? I don’t know if they went or not. This information is published for the public so if you have something to show, they want to see it. DARPA puts out requests for new technologies all the time. DARPA and SOCOM both have special funding to help emerging technologies get off the ground. If this technology is truly revolutionary there are plenty of people who want to see it and have the funding to buy it.
I agree with you william, in the point you make that there are level IV threats that are beyond the SOV-2000′s capabilities to stop. But, when the SOV-3000 gets its level IV certification (which it probably will, soon), then I don’t think there can be any other body armor that can stand up to it in terms of pound-for-pound protection, flexibility, and multiple hit resilience.
disregarding the level IV ratings and disregarding the SOV-3000 completely (lets just wait until it gets the level IV rating, then everything will unfold from there. that’s a matter for the future), the SOV-2000 is the current issue. It’s the only vest thats been shown tested by Pinnacle Armor on their videos and it looks very good. You heard about those 90 marines that died from isolated torso wounds in iraq (where the bullet hit around the area not protected by their plate)? I mean, honestly, if they were wearing dragon skin then they’d be alive today. there is no question about that whatsoever, because you’ve seen those videwos of the SOV-2000 stopping round after round after round of AK ammo (which basically all the insurgents use), and you know that the SOV-2000 has the full torso/full back wrap option where it covers basically their entire torso (besides the shoulders. the shoulder straps are level IIIA rated). Since SOv-2000 is rated for level III and level III+ as well, it will most likely be able to handle the SVD dragunov ammo used by the insurgentgs (which is the only sniper they got pretty much, besides extreme cases where one of em would have some foreign weapon or whatnot, you catch my drift?). So, my view is that Dragon Skin would have saved many lives in iraq because of the insurgents’ limited options for weapons. they don’t got those rounds with tungsten penetrators and they dont have Armor Piercing Incindiary rounds. Dragon skin would have done a phenomenal job in iraq, much better than the interceptor.
Now, if we’re takling about a war vs say…England. then Dragon Skin SOV-2000 would probably not be fielded because it isn’t rated for level IV rounds which the brits or any other prominent, professional army uses. Ya know what I mean? That’s the job for the SOV-3000.
as you know, all DS body armor can take substantial repeat hits. there’s no question to that, the videos that pinnacle releases are not fabricated. if you were to shoot a fully decked out interceptor with level IV ESAPI plates with an AK 47 until the vest would fail, it would fail sooner than a level III dragon skin sov-2000 for sure. DS sov-2000 can take more hits from 7.62x39mm than an esapi plate. but if you were to shoot a fully decked out interceptor level IV (in the plate) with a level IV 7.62x61mm round, it would stop the round (given that it is shot in the plate and not the soft armor portion, which is crap) and the sov-2000 would fail.
So basically, ESAPI plates offer better higher protection level than SOV-2000, but the SOV-2000 can take more hits from lower powered rounds than the plate can. If you were gona go to sniper alley and you knew that they would shoot you flat in the chest, you’re best bet would be interceptor with ESAPI plates as opposed to SOV-2000. but if you were going to iraq and you knew you’d get sprayed with 20 rounds of AK ammo or something like that, SOV-2000 over the interceptor for sure hands down.
I think that what we need to do is to wait. When the SOV-3000 gets its level IV rating, then it will truly bring into question, the effectiveness of the interceptor.
and im gona have to disagree with your statement about cost. Night vision and body armor are in different categories. Obvioysly, night vision is more important than body armor when it comes to a night fight. So, its as if you need to make a decision. Buy your troops night vision or screw the night vision and get good body armor. If you buy both, it will cost too much. you know what im saying, william? cuz honestly, you can’t really argue that the interceptor with ESAPI plates is a better vest than the SOV-3000. it just isn’t.
here’s a comparison
Dragon Skin SOV-2000
Protection Level: III and III+
Hit capability: dozens
Flexible: entire armor is very flexible
Weight: In any size, at most 3.7 pounds heavier than interceptor OTV
Area coverage: with best config, 88% more protection from III threats than Interceptor OTV.
Interceptor OTV
PRotection Level: IV
Hit Capability: three IV rounds per plate, probably five or maybe six III/III+ rounds per plate for the front and back (side plates offer IV protection, but less hit capacity due to their size which makes them easier to fracture and fail.
Flexible: soft armor is flexible. plates are not. so about half the vest is not flexible
Area Coverage: 270 Square Inches of level IV protection (medium size, front, back, and two side plates ESAPI).
weight: At most, 5.2 pounds lighter than Dragon Skins (SOV-3000).
Dragon Skin SOV-3000
Protection Level: IV and V (V does not exist, but on pinnacle’s website it is mainly smaller 5.56×45 and 7.62×51 ammo but with the specialized penetrator tips and classified velocities which probably exceed 3000 fps. these rounds are slightly more powerful than IV rounds).
Hit capacity: Dozens
Flexibility: whole vest
Weight: At most (in all sizes), 5 pounds heavier than Interceptor.
As you can see it took me a while to do this.
VERDICT: Although the ESAPI plates are stronger than SOV-2000 dragon skin, they can take less hits (they can withstand a stronger round, but they are less durable. hope that makes sense).
However, the SOV-3000 is the haymaker here and i’m almost certain it will recieve the level IV rating from NIJ. If it does, then i am confident to state that the SOV-3000 is clearly superior to the Interceptor Body Armor.
NIJ level IV would be a good start to proving that DS can defeat AP. The next step would be meeting military requirements of multihit at the required velocities.
Level III protection is relatively easy to obtain, compressed dyneema or spectra does this at very low weights.
Level IV is very challenging at the lower weights. Like I said before Level IV NIJ has been achieved at 6.5 lbs areal density, the military requirements require a heavier armor, hence the ESAPI areal density of 7.4 lbs. Which is the best that industry is capable of doing currently. I am afraid that the weight of Dragon Skin will wind up increasing significantly to meet the military requirements. In my personal experience, we had many vendors that presented products that were claimed to meet the specifications, but most failed in testing and when they came back to try again the product had increased in weight. Shooting armor with regular guns on the range can give a false impression of the capabilities. Many products were found to be on the margins of defeating the rounds, and shooting a few samples doesn’t provide enough data points. The V0 and V50 numbers are determined through extensive testing. Armor is classified as bullet resistant vs bullet proof. Nobody could carry bullet proof, the safety factor is too high.
Differnt barrel lengths give different velocities with the same cartridge. You have to test for worst case.
Live fire demonstrations without velocity measuring equipment are easy sandbag. A few years ago the Miami Dade Police department bought some body armor after seeing a live demonstration on their range. It was very convincing. But two weeks after fielding the armor an officer was killed by the very round that was demonstrated that the armor defeated. There was a lawsuit and the armor was replaced with another brand. I still have a copy of the demo tape showing the smoke and mirrors tactics of the manufacturer. This also why the NIJ tests armor and even then they got fooled by Zylon. Now Zylon cannot be used to make vests, Second Chance went bankrupt, and a lot of good officers are dead. So just because a manufacturer makes claims does not necessarily make it so. I would venture to say that the military has the most extensive testing protocols, and with good reasons. You have to prove consistant performance to make the grade. Also the military cannot just replace a million plus sets of body armor overnight, everytime something new comes out. Once it is a proven technology it will be adopted. Would you get into an new airplane design without it being tested first? I don’t think anybody would, except for the crazy test pilots. Just look what happened to Airbus’ new passenger plane that used a composite tail section. Even after what everyone thought was adequate testing it failed and killed several hundred people. I will not fly on one, even though they claim to have fixed the design.
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Hans, I agree with you. I think that Pinnacle used the USMC report as a launching pad to attack the Army/USMC and start a big marketing campaign. The only problem is that the Army had already identified the short comings of the SAPI with change in the environment and enemy tactics when it became apparent. The Army already had ESAPI in the field when the report came out. Unlike the liberal media press the Army is not going to publish a guide on how to kill our guys by putting out information that would let the enemy know how to defeat what we have in the field. I actually see Pinacle’s tactics as “opportunistic” and reeks of the very things that they and some of their supporters have accused the Army and defense contractors of doing. Pinnacle also employs fear tactics by trying scare soldiers, I see this as an attempt to undermine the confidence of the troops in the equipment that they have, if this were WWII they would probably be arrested. Pinnacle has been claiming to stop Level IV threats and their own ficticious “Level V” threats for some time, but they have yet to acquire any certifications to prove it. I think they don’t really understand the difference between investor relations and truth in advertising.
though DS is heavier, i’d still wear it for reasons that it provide superior protection. the plates in the front/back of an interceptor still leaves out chunks of area of back and chest that are vulnerable to rifle threats, and hard plates are inflexible. i don’t mind the extra 5 pounds. i’m buff anyways, so no problems here. maybe you skinny guys would care (haha).
dude interceptor puts a lot of weight on your shoulder. i’m ex-army (82nd AD) and i know what its like to wear the interceptor AND the the dragon skin (managed to get a hold of one from a buddy of mine who is also a contractor). i’d tell you that his SOV-3000 feels much lighter than the interceptor due to the fact that it disperses the weight better (hugs your body instead of justp utting weight on your shoulders) and offers superior protection to the interceptor (duh), and is substantially more flexible and comfortable. Although DS sov-3000 (best configuration+shoulder pieces+goin pad)is about 6 pounds heavier than the fully rigged interceptor, it feels a lot lighter and it is much more easy to move around in. same with the marine corp’s new vest, the MTV (modular tactical vest). it is 3 pounds heavier than interceptor but feels lighter because of better weight distribution. Hans and william, i will tell you hands down, from a soldiers perspective, that dragon skin SOV-3000 is superior to the interceptor in every way.
I gurantee you that Dragonskin will revolutionize body armor.There may be kinks now but like any other body armor they will work them out.Just imagine if all technology wasn’t scrutinized or tested thuroughly/fairly.The point is…Dragonskin seems to be searching new avenues of body armor technology and that seems to make others jealous of not having come up with it themselves.
DRAGONSKIN SHOULD BE PROUD TO BE WHAT SEEMS LIKE THE ONLY NEW DEVELOPMENT IN BODY ARMOR.WITH ALL THE SCIENCE NERDS ON THIS FORUM THERE SHOULD BE MORE ADVANCES.KEEP KICKIN’ ASS AND ERASIN’ NAMES FELLOW MARINES.
What most people do not understand about the current state of the body armor industry is that millions of dollars are spent each year on research. Current ceramic armor technology already uses the lightest weight ceramic which is B4C (boron carbide) and the total composite weight of a plate is 1/4 the weight of the equivelent ballistic steel that would be needed. Boron Carbide is as hard as a diamond and is lighter than aluminum. The composite fabric is ten times stronger than steel, Kevlar is only five times stronger.
Platelet armor has been around since Roman times. The concept is nothing new, it was used for military armor during WWII, and the last usage was by the Russians in the 1980′s, using Titanium plates (simliar to the SOV 2000). No one uses this concept except for Pinnacle today because you pay a 30 percent weight penalty because of the overlap of the discs, so you won’t have seams. Everyone in the armor industry knows this.
Pinnacle however relies on the fact that the average person will see their product as being innovative and new because it is different from the what everyone else is doing today. Add in some flashy videos and some scare tactics and you have a good marketing tool. However, this like argueing which truck is better a chevy 1500 or a ford f150. If all of Pinnacle’s claims are true, there is still not a nickles worth of difference. If we assume that their claims are true for a moment, they might have a slight advantage if you were going to stand around and be shot by multiple rounds, however in the real world no one would stand around be shot this many times, so in reality you would be carry more armor than you need and the additional weight. If we are talking about bragging rights maybe they are ahead, assuming all claims are true. Earth shattering? HARDLY. Significant improvement? NOPE!
Industry has exhausted all current materials available. The only significant improvements will be made when a new material is discovered or invented. So until then, ask to see performance data, weight data, and quality controls since that is the real measure of an armor system, not some hyped up video.
William what you’re saying is a disgrace to the men who serve our country to defend your right to be a fool. I HAVE WORN BOTH THE INTERCEPOR AND SOV-3000.
As menjtioned in my previous post, i served a tour in iraq in the 82nd (I will not, however, disclose my identity)and managed to get hooked up with a SOV-3000 (briefly) from a friend of mine who is a contractor working in the green zone.
Have you worn dragon skin? Exactly, now listen up.
First of all, interceptor IS lighter than dragon skin. However, its poor weight distribution system makes it feel like its 60 pounds. It puts severe strain on your shoulders and is inflexible when it comes to leaning foreward. You cna hardly do a sit up in an interceptor OTV w/ all 4 plates (and I am very fit). Dragon Skin is heavier, and when i picked it up with my hand it felt heavier. However, wearing it was quite comfortable after a couple of minutes and it felt much lighter due to the fact that it hugs your body and offers great weight distribution. Bar none, SOV-3000 offers superior protection to a fully configured interceptor. You cannot argue against that. Furthermore, I felt much more unrestricted and I felt that if I was on patrol, I would be able to chase down the guy who shot at me (rather than sulk in the interceptor and call off the chase or whatnot).sThe video, though hyped, shows what dragon skin can do. Those were SOV-2000′s. Imagine how manyh lives would have been saved if the SOV-3000 was fielded to our troops.
William, please consider the things you say. Most people who visit this site are poorly informed and easily manipulated to believe what a few “experts” claim are true. Words can trick people and prevent such great armor to be fielded to our troops.
who cares if its heavier, as long as it feels lighter and allows the men to perform their duties with flexibility (excuse the pun) and better protection than the current issue Interceptor and Modular Tactical Vest (new marine vest). Who cares about the industry, who cares if it aint revolutionary or if it is. This will save so many lives and if the troops like it (like the guy below me) then you should listen to them becaujse they are the ones who evaluate and need it. I for one would use this no problem. And William, are you some guy sent by the military? You troll this site almost daily I have noticed with your friend Hans (who is less obsessed), and all you do is make Dragon Skin look unoriginal and useless. Do you have any idea how many men died from wounds to the shoulder/upper chest/outer front torso who were hit in the soft armor portion? 92. That’s right. If we had given them this armor 92 of our men would be at home with their families right now. Until some supervest is designed in the future, the best thing we got is this. I’m sure that if you were evfer called into duty you would scramble to pinnacle’s site and order their vest. They also have knee pads and shoulder and groin pads made of dragon skin too. Mayhbe those you might not need (except for the groin one) but the vest itself is a stud and offers the best protection, flexibility, and comfort for our troops right now.
William,why don’t you listen? Everyone on this forum states the truth and take it from me you are way out of your league.When Special-Forces uses this armor then its clear what is the best.Hey man take it from everyone except your government buddies Dragonskin is the best in vests.You say it weighs more but that dont matter to real soldiers anyhow.Mess with this vest die like the rest.Keep up the spirit of this country and serve it well to all military.P.S. William is a sociapath about knocking Dragonskin maybe he should be a live comparison testee for Interceptor/Dragonskin.I’d like to see that.
Hey guys, all I have said is put up or shut up. They made some claims, none of them have been verified. I said on an earlier post that I was impressed with the potential of flexible armor designs. This has been tried many times before, but there have always been problems. Dragon Skin has been around for more than 10 years and if it is the revolution everyone talks about, then it would certainly win in the market place. They have claimed to have an NIJ certified Level III vest for several years, I have seen their vest marked this way. However they just actually recieved their NIJ Level III certification in December of 2006. They have claimed Level IV and Level V since 2004 and still don’t have a Level IV certification. Here is an interesting link to a company who claims to have sold the rights to Dragon Skin and are apparently re-entering the market since their non-compete has expired. http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Flex.htm Maybe the real inventor of the original Dragon Skin can really make this concept work. They claim to have some new disc material that works better than the conventional materials. They also claim to be working with the government to have their design tested properly. So we will see what is up with that.
Interceptor was designed as a frag vest with the added capability of providing lightweight rifle protection. It has evolved with the increasing threats on the battlefield. It also did not have any molle attachments on it since the army was still using LBE to carry ammo, water, and other stuff. The load bearing capability was added way later and now the design is no longer workable with all the changes and added armor weight. I am sure that some changes in the ergonomics are in the works. The Marine corps went to a new vest design last year, at least they let a contract for it, I don’t know if it has been fielded yet.
Ask the Rangers about the first Ranger body armor, steel plates and a heavy kevlar soft armor, it weighed 40 lbs. The next generation weighed 32 lbs with the lighter weight ceramic plates. Interceptor with plates was 18 lbs. Now the weight has been going back up with the increased threats.
A handful of Special Forces operators bought DS, so do not confuse that with an endorsement for the command. I can guarrantee you having served 14 years in Special Forces, that Dragon Skin was tested by some very competent people and if Dragon Skin actually worked, SF certainly has the ability ,funding and procurement authority to obtain it. So if SOCOM didn’t buy any for fielding to the guys, I would take that as a pretty good indicator that there is more smoke and mirrors than substance. After all they do have their own armor program seperate from the Army’s program. I also want the guys to have the best protection and equipment. Promises do not stop bullets, videos do not stop bullets, slick marketing brochures do not stop bullets, only armor stops bullets, and only proper testing will ensure that it will do so with a high confidence level.
We shall wait for Dragon Skin to get their level IV rating, which is currently in process.
Go to this link and see what Defense Review was saying about Dragon Skin in 2004. They were claiming that dragon skin was stopping Level IV threats at 17.5 lbs vest weights. They also were saying that M80 ball is a Level IV threat which it is not, NIJ classifies it as a Level III threat and they say that AK47 Mild Steel Core is AP, which it is not, it is a ball round. This article is full of inaccuracies, and that is putting thinks politely.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=490
So how is it that Dragon Skin just recently recieved their NIJ Level III certification?
the SOV-2000 recieved the III rating. the SOV-3000 is currently being tested by the NIJ for a level IV certification. At this time, it is being tested alongside NIJ standards, so no worry there.
william i am just wondering if you were ever going to return to combat would you wear the SOV-3000 or something else (name, be specific). For my part I’d go with the SOV-3000.
Personally, I prefer having modularity. So any system would have to allow me to configure how much armor protection (weight) I was going to carry. This includes being able to just use a set of plates, sans the soft armor on occasion. This would mean a that the plates would have to be safe to use in a stand alone mode against the majority of threats. If I needed the highest level of protection, I could either use the complete soft armor or supplemental soft armor behind the plates to reach the higher protection. If my mission required high mobility or endurance I would just be using the plates, if the physical demands were less I could add more protection, like the whole soft armor, and add some side plates. If I was spending a lot of time riding around in a vehicle, where the threat of IEDs was very prevelent, then I would be wearing all the armor protection I could put on. The vest also needs to have a cutaway feature in case I was caught in a burning vehicle, or some other situation where I needed to cutaway my equipment to escape. My normal setup when I was on active duty was a concealment vest that I wore full time, with two plates in a bikini carrier that I could throw on when I went out. That way I always had on frag protection in the base camp, I had a buddy who got hit while sitting in the crapper, but his soft armor saved him. The conventional guys would drop everything, so they wound up being exposed when they thought it was safe. If you are in a war zone, there are no safe areas. Of course I had a lot more control of what equipment I had to wear, versus the conventional units. But it annoys me that mandatory use of soft armor is not seen in the base camps where getting mortared is very real. You can never let your guard down. whether you are in the mess hall or just walking across the compound. Since all they have is tactical armor it is difficult to be able to shed some of the weight quickly. I could go from soft, to hard, to both, and throw on my LBE with full kit in seconds. If I had to operate somewhere like Afghanistan, I would like to be able to just throw on hard plates for rifle protection, and maybe add and subtract hard side plates when needed. I don’t like the integrated system where everything is attached, because it is an all or nothing proposition. I know we can do better for the guys on the ergonomics than what they currently have in the field.
The future force warrior concept armor was field tested at Bragg a few years ago, and while it looks cool, and really reduced the heat stress, it was unusable to do more than stand around on guard duty. Every SOF mission profile was tested with full kit, and it was not usable. If you only had on the armor it was pretty good, that is not reality. It was impossible to get in and out of a vehicle in full kit.
I am not against flexible armor. The concept is fantastic, but in my many years of experience, no one has been able to make this concept competitive in weight due to the fact that you have so many joints that the tiles have to be overlapped. This causes an automatic weight penalty of at least 30%. This can mean an extra 10-15 pounds more weight compared to conventional armor design, with the same level of protection. There is no way around the physics of this no matter what material you use. The use of small tiles to increase multi-hit is nothing new. Our first ceramic plates were made of mosaic tiles glued together to form larger plates. Very good multi-hit but you had to use thicker tiles (which added weight) to ensure a bullet hitting a joint would be defeated. Then industry mastered making monolithic large plates and we could use thinner, lighter tiles, but gave up a lot of multi-hit. Every armor system is a compromise. You can fix one thing but you have to give up something else. Flexible armor systems can be very good, but you will pay a large weight penalty for the multi-hit. I think 3-4 hits in a small area is sufficient, and that is for the highest threat the plate will defeat. I have seen some AP plates take 10 or more hits of AK Ball, which is way beyond any threat you would see in reality. So just because the plate is advertised to stop X number of hits, that is the minimum that a plate has to stop of the AP threat, it will stop a lot more of the non-AP bullets. But that part has been left out in some companies marketing literature. I have an old vest left over from a test years ago and it has over 300 rounds of sub-machinegun 9mm in it and it weighs just three pounds. All of the high end soft armors will do this so a hundred 9mm rounds should be no challenge. But the marketing makes it look like no one else’s armor can do this. I have another vest panel that we shot 25 rounds into the same hole at 6 inches away and did not get a penetration. I got assed off, because I do have the experience to know what I am looking at, and I could not get anything from the manufacturer except hype, no facts, no third party verifications on their claims so I did throw the Bull$hit flag and blew the whistle. I know what the industry is capable of producing and these guys are not telling you the whole story. They omit a lot of things, and misconstrue the truth so that their armor looks vastly superior, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
Maybe one day a new material will come along which will allow this concept to work at the same weights of current conventional armor. But guess what, the new material will just make conventional armor lighter too. Unless someone makes a material as light as air, the flexible armor will still be 30 percent heavier and no one can change that fact, because the design demands it. You cannot have the trifecta that is claimed. You cannot have the multi-hit, and do it at the same weight as regular armor.
So to answer your question, my armor would be what I already used before. If, I had to walk into a room for some ficticious firefight where I had to stand there with no cover and take round after round, then and only then would it make sense to use this concept. There is no such thing as comfortable armor. I agree that Interceptor soft armor leaves a lot to be desired in the form and fit department, but that does not take away from the protection level. Take out your ruler and measure coverage areas between your current gear and what these guys are showing you. You just might be surprised to find that a Large, really isn’t a Large, but a Medium. I would not do business with a company that will say anything to sell me something. If it is good it will sell itself. Just put the facts out and let the customer decide. It is illegal to tell people that you have NIJ certifications that you don’t actually have.
William you seem to be missing the point. Dragon skin is 6 pounds (at most) heavier than the interceptor, but it feels lighter and is flexible, thus it is more comfortable and allows the warfighter to be more agile and flexible and at the same time better protected.
Like the gentleman who posted before, I confirm that Dragon Skin weighs no more than 6 pounds heavier than a fully rigged interceptor (size L dragon skin weights 6 pounds more than an L interceptor w/ 4 plates), yet offers the same protection level(IV) but better resilience and covers 36% more area of the torso against rifle rounds (88% more if interceptor has no side plates).
Let me say that again.
It weights no more than 6 pounds heavier than a fully rigged Interceptor, and offers the same protection (level IV) and covers 88% more area of the torso against rifle rounds. and it can take more hits (which is vital if you’re being ambushed).
The reason why it is 6 pounds heavier is because it covers 36% more area than the plates of an interceptor do. That’s a trade I’d take anyday.
it is more flexible than the interceptor, and has superior weight distribution, so although it is heavier you don’t feel as burdened because of the good distribution. You can also configure the hard armor part of the dragon skin to meet your weight needs. The soft armor portion of the dragon skin, if you configure it to have soft armor, is also level IIA NIJ. Interceptor soft armor cannot stop IIA rounds.
And i guarantee you that Dragon Skin will obtain the level IV rating from NIJ.
Hi Ed, I think you should go have a health checkup since sufficient oxygen is obviously not getting to your brain. I don’t see how asking technical questions about weight and performance can be considered as me trying to block this particular armor design from our troops. I guess since I am not gullible enough to swallow the slick marketing hook, line and sinker, is what makes you cast dispersions upon my character. I just do not see the relevance to the discussion at hand. I guess I could take your multiple, simpleton, and childish remarks seriously and in return accuse you of being gay or something, but relevance would that have to the discussion of Pinnacle’s product or marketing materials? Since you obviously are very close to this product and company, knowing about the imminent purchases by all branches of the military, then surely you can give us clarification on the technical capabilities of the armor, and product specifications. I am waiting.
Hi Guys
Well I can’t deny that the dragon skin is better protection, the S-3000 dragon skin can stop level IV bullets (It is in the process of getting a level IV certification from NIJ, but I am positive that it will) and soak up multiple shots (more than plates). Though there is a slight weight penalty.
And it is heavier than the interceptor Body Armor, but in agreement with the other posts, the weight distribution will probably make it feel as light if not a little bit lighter than the Interceptor Body Armor (IBA). Either way, it would allow the soldier to perform his/her duties better because when you have all that weight only on your shoulders it impairs your movement whereas if you have it hugging your body and then some on your shoulders it feels tight and tough, and allows for better function.
As you know, Dragon skin reduces trauma significantly compared to E-Sapi plates (About 40 percent less backface trauma). That means that there will be less bruises (which is good).
Also, it is more flexible than IBA.
I agree that in the technicality of it, Dragon Skin is heavier. the most it is heavier compared to the interceptor when both are providing level IV protection is 6.4 pounds (size L for both vests). all other sizes have lower weight difference.
My decision if I were to be in combat: A Dragon Skin. Good weight distribution, great protection, flexible.
William I dont swallow nothin except whiskey and food.You swallow dicks- head,neck,and nutsack.Wake up kid you’re out numbered on this forum and I haven’t read anything that tells me anyone else is as doubtfull as you.I’m sure you are waiting since you certainly don’t have any sex in your future.By the way what have you heard or seen that makes the Interceptor better than Dragonskin anyway?I’m straight out in my opinion you better listen to a man who knows what he’s saying.I see why everyone has a problem with you.You always want people to argue with you when you have no valid arguements.
Ed is a crazyman.But he is correct I have yet to see anything taht compares Interceptor to Dragonskin from the so called expert William.How can you be against the vest if you constantly ask the weight and performance stats?If you really wanted to know you would do your own research.I think eveyone likes to argue with you because you raise some good questions but unfortunately don’t have the answers yourself.
Well it looks like my uncle Ed had ten too many last night and got a little carried away(sorry William).And no he is not a crazyman we just drink a lot.I knew I shouldn’t have brought up Dragonskin but I couldn’t resist to tell him about it as well as show him the you-tube video.In my opinion I believe anything new is going to be controversial and it should be.Without proper research by many experts new things can have faults.This product from what I’ve seen\heard looks to be very reliable but without fisthand experience with Dragonskin I would need to see Interceptor vs. Dragonskin to be either for it or against it.I personally could care less what the vest weighs because I’m an avid weightlifter.I would however like to see how it performs against armor piercing rounds and against IED attacks because thats the biggest problem in Iraq right now.
Hey guys, be respectful here. William has a valid point to state, which is that Dragon skin is heavier than the interceptor. Though ,in my mind, the weight distribution more than makes up for that.
We can’t really prove william false about the SOV-3000 not being able to stop level IV bullets, and nor wan be prove that he is correct, because pinnacle has never released videos showing its SOV-3000 vest. However, I am quite certain NIJ will send the letter of approval to pinnacle soon certifying their armor as level IV protection. Time will tell.
And dragon skin will not be adopted by the military anytime soon. The Marine Corps got a new vest called the MTV (modular tactical vest) which still uses plates. It features more soft armor near the lower back and good weight distribution. it is heavier than interceptor but feels lighter according to the marine corps press release and several testimonials from marines who got to work with it.
The army has signed a contract recently for a new type of interceptor. It will basically look the same as the MTV, but have the ACU camo pattern.
Concerning the SOV-3000′s, the army testers said that it failed the tests. But a pinnacle technician who witnessed the testing said that one of the army testers fired level IV roudns into the levle IIA shoulder straps to “see what would happen”. He also stated that all rounds fired into the side, back, shoulder blade region, and front torso were stopped. However, a few weeks after the test a congressman objected to Dragon Skin being fielded to our troops, claming that there were “clear penetrations” of the armor (but thats expected, because level IIA shoulder straps are not supposed to stop level IV armor piercing incindiary rounds, duh). Anyway ther’s just a background for you. The results of the test are classified.
However, SOV-3000′s are, at this moment, being tested by NIJ for level IV certification, which is a much more reliable testing group than the Army. If these vests are to pass (which they probably will), the Army anad its testers will have a lot of explaining to do.
In case you were wondering, here is the new interceptor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Army_IOTV.jpg
basically the same thing as MTV, but different camo. Offers same protection level as old interceptor and offers same area of protection from rifle rounds as old interceptor. There’s just an added back panel of soft armor to stop rounds from hitting the tailbone area.
I believe Dragonskin will be contracted in the future because it was unfairly tested.When testing any vest you use the highest grade vest not the weakest instead of the SOV-3000.Also our research and development team is weeks away from releasing a video on you-tube that shows close ups of the rounds used as well as the close ups of the vests we aquired from Dragonskin.The testing is on going and very intensive.I can tell you that this vest is being tested in all ways concieveable.We test at a shooting range two days a week.We measure velocities at range and are also testing other things like durability for explosions.We have tested with the following cals. so far 9mm.,38.spc,12gauge,AK-rounds of all specifications including armor piercing,30/06,.44mag.,50cal.at 200yds.and my personal favorite in personal protection the infamous DesertEagle at damn near point blank range.The testing unlike others(army)is fair and done without any hands under the table.This is an independant test by interested Americans who together paid for the vests and with the help from retired police officers\several retired branches of military have been able to obtain the weapons and ammunitionwithout breaking any local laws.There will be close ups of the cartridge casings and close ups of the vests tested.It is still in the infant stages of testing but I hope to get the video footage up soon.
Hey David it’s good to see that there are independent tests going on even if it won’t get Dragonskin on our military.I cant’ wait to see the video.I am curious to see what the 50cal. does to DragonSkin.Are you going to post where we can see the video?
david, you better work your ass off to get some serious exposure. call some peeps from a PROMINENT newspaper or something. what you’re doing will save lives! i applaud your patrotism.
David,
I relaly like the idea of your test. Make sure you inform the newspapers and other ppl you contact about the two different dragon skin vests (SOV-2000, which is rated to stop AK fire and other level III rounds, and the SOV-3000, which is rated to stop armor piercing incindiary rounds, otherwise known as level IV ammunition). In addition to your testing, pinnacle armor, the manufacturer of dragon skin, has already submitted the SOV-3000 to testing at the NIJ labs for an official level IV certification. Jay, I dont think that any news agency would take your tests with mych seriousness. I mean, I know you guys are honest and doing the right thing, but if this story goes onto some news channel, people would rather believe the army test results (which were sabotaged) rather than the results of several “unofficial” testers. Y’know what I mean? I think that in your current situation it would be better if you just informed people about this via myspace or youtube rather than go for the news. When National Institude of Justice confirms SOV-3000 dragon skin as level IV certified, that should go on the news because it is official. Your video would do well on youtube, but i doubt it would get far in the media at this point in time. Timing is everything.
Dave, what’s your email?
Jay, all I want to do is tell an inside friend of a local paper to say where I will post the video.I can understand your opinion but I have a good friend that is an editor for this paper and he has already said it would be okay to put where to find this forum and the videos to come.I still have to find out how to get the video on you-tube after we’re done shooting.This is not at all something that we are trying to get the media to look at.We just want to spread the word that yes there is something more we can do to protect our soldiers/law enforcement.The video goes beyond the DiscoveryChannels Futureweapons as the History Channels MailCall and we’re just getting started.We are only testing the SOV-3000 and it is truely amazing.I personally have never seen a vest that can stop afull clip from a DesertEagle at about 2ft. away.The most amazing thing I have seen was the 15 consecutive shotgun blasts that one vest took just to look like it was hit.And I personaly would rather wear the shotgun blasted vest than the Interceptor because if you saw what 3 shotgun blasts did to the Interceptor you’d say what a piece of crap.I personally bought 3 of the dragonskin vests one went with my son to Afghanistan one I sacrificed for the testing(hell if you ask me its still better than the Interceptor even with a 50cal.hole through it)the other one I’m keeping mint.I don’t post my email adress ever,nothing against you but that is for family only.I will continue to post updates and just argue my point of view frequently.
For sure for sure. What you’re doing is great. Just try your best to let people know, and to let those people let more people know. This is really important and you’re doing something that nobody else has done before.
By the way, just for my info..could you tell me if the vest is comfortable? I know that it is slightly heavier than the interceptor but I am just wondering if dragon skin SOV-3000′s weight distribution system makes up for that weight penalty, since there have been many posts here that argue that the weight of dragon skin can be cancelled by its good weight distribution. Like basically, if you were wearing it would you be able to perform your duty better than if you were wearing a fully plated interceptor? Thanks again, for everything you’re doing.
Stay safe and I look forward to watching your tests. Putting them up on YouTube should be a breeze; all you have to do is get an account (takes like 5 mins) and then upload the vid.
The reason so many peolpe hate dragonskin is because they would hate to think that it is better than what is already used.That is also why it was unfairly researched.DRAGONSKIN IS THE BEST ARMOR IN THE WORLD SO WHY CAN”T THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD USE IT?
You are right Sam,even if it isn’t going to be fairly tested it should at least be seen as the only advncement in armor so far.Therefore it should be recieved with an open mind as to where the future of armor will be headed.
Dragon Skin has been around since 1995. So in twelve years, how many Police departments have bought Dragon Skin. Wait, don’t you have to have NIJ certifications before the Police can buy and use the armor. So why did Pinacle wait 12 years to finally get “one” NIJ certification and is now waiting on the “second” certification? How come you guys haven’t been bitching about all the police departments that have not taken advantage of Dragon Skin for the last 12 years? Doesn’t it appear that their is a conspiracy in “EVERY” police department out there, since our defenders in Blue deserve the best armor protection too? I have done ride alongs with the New York PD Swat, and they have about 400 members. They constantly have barricade situations on a daily basis and have a NIJ Level IV requirement. They also have to run up multi-story buildings that are so old they do not have elevators, so well fitting, highly protective armor is a necessity. You would think that one of the largest departments in the country would certainly be interested in this “wonder” technology, how about Los Angeles, or Maimi/Metro Dade, or Dallas Swat? I do believe that some departments have Unions that could weigh in if there is better technology to help protect our officers. How come we haven’t heard about our police being denied better protection? I think that there is more to this than the Army. What about the Marine Corps, are they in on the conspiracy too? If this is so good how come US Special Operations Command did not buy any? I think it is time to wake up and smell the coffee guys. If this armor is as good as you all think then why isn’t Pinnacle an industry leader when it comes to body armor sales after 12 years in the market place? Good products sell themselves.
It wasn’t popular because of weak advertising. That’s the most obvious.
the main reason is that pinnacle relied on private testing to verify their armor. If they don’t have NIJ standards on their armor (in other words, if NIJ don’t test it), it won’t sell because of people fearing it is crappy/not well tested.
Nowadays, pinnacle take their armor to NIJ. They got III and are getting IV right now. After that, then they will get more orders.
William, why the hell are you doing this? Dragon Skin is superior to all other plated armors it’s painfully obvious. You think interceptor can compare to dragon skin? You think the new marine vest can compare to dragon skin? If you do, you’re sadly mistaken.
Now after the army refuted their armor because of sabotaged test, they go to NIJ to make it more formal (since they know the army won’t trust their independent testers).
They know that if NIJ certifies it, the Army is in a shithole of trouble for giving its troops inferior armor.
So up until the point where they take their armor to NIJ, Dragon Skin was mainly an “underground” comapny that was relatively unknown except to those lucky passers-by. With all those advertisements claiming “BEST BODY ARMOR” from almost every body armor company, wouldn’t you exclude the one without official NIJ standards? thought so.
William, why do you refuse to accept dragon skin’s superiority to the current issue of armor our troops have? Many soldiers and marines buy dragon skin, only to have it confiscated.
I agree with bill, the main reason why people dont buy this stuff is because its independently tested (does not have official NIJ safety standards). If I were a police commander and I saw a body armor company claiming to have good armor but no official testing, I’d ignore them because..well “independent testing” doens’t sound very assuring.
But the proof is in the pudding, just look at the videos. Their level III armor is exceptional at protecting against level III rounds, and im sure their level IV armor is the same with their respective threats.
I’m a first-time visitor to this site because I’ve become interested in the Dragon Skin-Interceptor debate. William: How would you design a convincing, feasible test? Who would a credible tester be?
William has probably been to that site professionalsoldiers.com, which harbors the man himself who sabotaged the army’s Dragon Skin tests. Many admins from that site’s forum have been quoted to tell those who say dragon skin is better than interceptor to, “go burn in hell”.
its so obvious dragon skin is better. it is SO obvious. more obvious than the difference between black and white. it is truly sad how people think interceptor provides superior protection and flexibility in comparison to dragon skin.
There is an expected level sophistication for products that claim to be life saving. For instance, most things used in the military started life as commercial products and were then adapted or developed further for military use. However this testing requirement is not unique to body armor. The UL stamp on electrical wiring is there for a reason, some of that is so you don’t get electrocuted. The US Coast Guard tests life vests and rafts. This means that it has passed a minimum test for safety. they don’t usually do comparison tests of which product is better, just that the product meets the minimum acceptability ratings. The FAA tests aircraft and ensures safety standards.
Get serious, Pinnacle has waited a long time to meet some minimum test standards for their product. They also make some great claims without a way to verify it.
we don’t have a consumer reports test like they do for comparing which toaster oven is the best.
If Dragon Skin is all that is claimed then it shouldn’t be hard to prove. But it needs to be verified by scientific means, not by a bunch of redneck engineers shooting in their backyard.
David, you could save yourself a lot of time and money if you had just sent 6 of those vests to the lab for testing, instead of creating another video. You can send them direct to the NIJ for certification testing or send them to the lab for independent tests and then publish the data for all to see. You don’t need Pinacle’s permission to get the lab tests done.
Methinks Willy is crazy
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php
All other level III, IV and V bullet types and velocities are per typical military standard specifications
All other level III, IV and V bullet types and velocities are per typical military standard specifications
military specifications, not NIJ. Soi even if they are being tested by NIJ, that doesnt mean that they are afraid to shoot stronger bullets at it. As they promised, all bullets listed in that chard from level I to V can be stopped by SOV-3000. Once again, All other level III, IV and V bullet types and velocities are per typical MILITARY standard specifications.
dragon skin is better than interceptor. why is that so hard to admit?
I never said that Interceptor is better than Dragon Skin. Some of you guys and Pinacle “have” said that Dragon Skin is better than Interceptor. The burden of proof is on you. The Interceptor has been tested and has been “proven” to exceed the NIJ requirements that the Army claims. The Interceptor soft armor meets or exceeds the NIJ Level II threats for handguns, and the current plates defeat Level IV. Dragon skin has proven that they can exceed the handgun threats and stop Level III rifle threats. Now they have to prove what they claimed which is that it is better than the Interceptor.
It has been admitted that DS is “heavier” than Interceptor.
Score: Interceptor 1, Dragon Skin 0.
Stop Level IV threats.
Score: Interceptor 1, Dragon Skin ???
Meets current Army specifications.
Score: Interceptor 1, Dragons Skin ???
It don’t take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
First of all William we shoot at a very well renowned shooting range with large crowds of family and friends.And now that you have crossed the line calling law enforcement and retired military who have children that are in the reserves/active duty,I’m sure this forum will be dominated by real Americans instead of one yankee who is so anti-Dragonskin.
But you know william, even though DS is heavier, it’s more flexible, which makes it more comfortable. And its weight distribution is superior, which makes it feel lighter than it actually is (It also allows for more ease of running and transitioning from stances such as crouching, standing, and proning). That’s dragon Skin 1 (comfort), Dragon Skin 1 (flexibility), Dragon Skin 1 (fighter effectiveness) and obviously, Dragon Skin 1 (multiple hit durability).
Don’t forget Area Coverage from rifle rounds
Dragon Skin 1
Redneck isn’t even close we’re Cowboys From Hell.If you could see these men’s enthusiasm for proving to themselves and everyone who spectates this you’d volunteer for a beating that only a true Texan American could give you.Do the math man (or is that woman to you william)Dragonskin is far better than Interceptor.The weight distribution is perfect and the protection is un rivaled.I see the score as follows.
Interceptor=a shitload of fine American lives lost
Draonskin=a shitload of Americans will have one less thing to worry about in battle.
Guys i know that ur really passionate about this but lets try to be a lil more respectful. I kno its hard, and I don’t even serve in the military (yet..), but lets just keep this discussion orderly so that we can get all the facts straight instead of shouting insults. I, like you, want the truth to get out and there’s no way we’re gona be able to do that by putting each other down. William i don’t have anything against you personally but i seriously believe that you can’t argue dragon skin is crap. it’s the real deal and its gona be proven by some solid press release from NIJ very soon. if that’s enough, refer to the videos. they ain’t shooting fake bullets.
Dragonskin far exceeds Interceptor.Here is my interpretation of the scorecard.
Dragonskin;flexible,weight well dispersed,multiple hit integrity,coverage for shoulders,reliability after being hit,protects against blasts.
Interceptor;not flexible,weight not well dispersed,no multiple hit integrity,no coverage for shoulders,reliability after being hit is non existantno blast protection whatsoever.
SO THE FINAL TALLY====Dragonskin=6
Interceptor=-6
Skeptics argue that Dragon Skin SOV-3000 cannot stop level IV bullets travelling at high speeds. I am pretty sure it can, otherwise I’d go ahead and sue pinnacle for lying. But, they aren’t. Chances are the army guys, Karl Masters and James Zheng, who conducted and sabotaged the Dragon Skin tests, are sweating bullets right now. In those tests, level IV roudns were fired into the level IIIA shoulder straps. Obviously, there were complete penetrations and so they could argue that DS failed the tests. It was at the tester’s descretion to picjk which shots would count as results for the test..so..obviously..you catch my drift.
Man, I better not die for this. if the government arranges some freak accident for me to die in, I’m gona be pissed as hell.
William what brach of military were you in that speciallized in armor?It sounds like you are for the terrorists.
If we do not support developing better armor then our jobs as soldiers will be over.Even if this armor isn’t as good as it is said to be(excluding the laughable army testing)it is at least a step in the right direction.
ChopTop you have to be fair. Interceptor has saved many lives and it does have some measure of hit resiliency. It can take 3 level IV rounds per front/back plate and 1 per side plate before failing.
It’s just that what DS SOV-3000 can do dwarfs that of what the interceptor can do.
Where has the respect for new technology gone?Dragonskin is the only recent thing I can recall in the last ten years that is so controversial.It used to be that the military experts would work with these types of products and their designers to make a product that would be undeniably greater.It seems like Pinnacle is being fought by these agencies instead of being allowed to work with them.We owe it to our troops to research these things fairly.All I know is that when Dragonskin is NIJ certified some people are going to lose their jobs over this debockell.
I’ve never seen an issue this messed up over body armor you’re right on Johnny.Pinnacle does want to work with these people but the problem is they won’t let them.They would rather keep their pockets full of the cash coming in from Interceptor (which some troops have to purchase themselves)instead of advancing our armor program.
I’ve never seen an issue this messed up over body armor you’re right on Johnny.Pinnacle does want to work with these people but the problem is they won’t let them.They would rather keep their pockets full of the cash coming in from Interceptor (which some troops have to purchase themselves)instead of advancing our armor program.
I’ve never seen an issue this messed up over body armor you’re right on Johnny.Pinnacle does want to work with these people but the problem is they won’t let them.They would rather keep their pockets full of the cash coming in from Interceptor (which some troops have to purchase themselves)instead of advancing our armor program.
They should really work with Pinnacle instead of dissing it publicly because what if it is found to be better than what we have.That would be hillarious if Pinnacle got NIJ certified and then was like oh “I thought it wasn’t up to par with the douchebags who unfairly tested it.”That would be the greatest prove you wrong incident scenario.But then they would probably try to steal the patent and call it Snakeskin or some shit if they had to get it for the troops.Keep kickin ass in Iraq and Afghanistan fellow marines.
Let me get this straight. Pinacle did not get any official testing done for 12 years but somehow they can claim they have the best armor. They did not respond to the any of the hundreds of requests for new technology that are public record for the last 12 years,i.e. the Army, US SOCOM, DARPA and other agencies, but claim that the government is ignoring them. They supposedly have been an “underground” company according to one post, well that sure helps let the world know you have a new techology.
While I commend the forum members efforts to get our guys better equipment, I do not see your lay efforts helping, because until someone can address the credibility issues at hand, i.e. lack of testing by a recognized entity, it is all just cheer leading. Pinacle has not done anything that a legitimate business would do to present their product to the markets that exist, which is law enforcement and the military. Both of these entities have well know testing protocols to be considered a legitimate contender for receiving orders (business). There is no police department/town council that will allow them to purchase armor that does not meet the minimum standards of the NIJ. The military determines it’s needs and sets specifications. Until this is accomplished you cannot claim anything. You can say that you have a promising technology.
Pinacle has gotten everyone’s attention, now it is time to perform in a real environment where things can be measured in a controlled environment.
Pinacle so far has been reluctant to enter the arena, outside of doing their own testing and making range videos. There have been many new armor companies started since Pinacle started operations. All of them have certified armor or they have tried to pass the Army’s tests. They all compete in the market place, which ultimately decides which armor is the best, since customers get to decide that question. Just remember there have been products ahead of their time that were not successful, Packard and Delorean come to mind, I am sure there are more.
When they say that their vest can stop level IV bullets, they mean it. William, the past has nothing to do with Dragon Skin’s performance. Pinnacle clearly lists the types of rounds and their respective velocities that can be stopped multiple times by a Dragon Skin SOV-3000.
They aren’t lying.
Lets make a chart
Flexibility goes to Dragon Skin
Protection Area goes to Dragon Skin
Comfort goes to Dragon Skin
Hit endurance goes to Dragon Skin
Durability (from mishandling) goes to Dragon Skin
Shrapnel protection goes to Dragon Skin
Weight goes to Interceptor, but as aforementioned, weight distribution on DS offsets this advantage from interceptor.
Cost goes to Interceptor.
Even though it is not officially certified, Dragon Skin is still capable ot stopping level IV bullets. I’m absolutely certain that the rounds listed on pinnacle armor’s ballistic chart in the level IV and V categoty meet and exceet the standards for military body armor level IV.
Just because DS is not heavily advertised/officially tested doesn’t mean its not certified. Performance outweights words, just like how this body armor outperforms the current issue of military body armor by a substantial margin.
It’s simple: If its better than “the best body armor fielded in the world (interceptor)”, then it should be fielded.
Dragon skin is CLEARLY better than interceptor, and it is so obvious.
Because of comments like yours, William, Pinnacle is now making strides to advertise its body armor. These videos released show real bullets being fired into real dragon skin vests, and we will soon recieve a real certification from the real NIJ which will basically imply the fact that dragon skin is the real deal.
William do you work for Pinnacle?How would you know if Pinnacle is trying to work with everyone or not?What is your problem with this company?What is your life like because it sounds like you do nothing but post on this forum.You should work for Fox because you sure know how to spin statements arround.I think defense technology could advance by leaps and bounds if the people testing it worked to develop it instead of dissing it and just writing it off as if it has nothing at all to offer.There are advancements in Dragonskin that I don’t see in the Interceptor or the new MTV.You should really rethink your opinion because no one can say for sure if Dragonskin is better or worse.It’s a matter of opinion only, at this point and this far you can’t say it’s not going to pass NIJ standards because they haven’t released anything yet.Also it is a matter of opinion that this forum gives you any credentials as to say whether it is good or not.So far we’ll have to see whether it passes the NIJ standards and then gets approved by police agencies and military.You can’t say it won’t anymore than I can say it will.That is a matter of the sabotaging done by the army that made it so controversial.And by doing that millions more people know about Dragonskin than if they had just wrote it off.I guarantee you didn’t hear of Dragonskin until it was publicly dissed and don’t give me any of that “I was an armor expert” fony bullcrap.No one cares what you were or what you are now the only thing you have right is that it hasn’t been passed for NIJ standards and that is because they are in the process right now.You also can’t say whether they have tried to get it passed by NIJ because your not a certified NIJ tester anyhow.Now those are the facts so until there are more developments don’t be quick to judge because I know most marines aren’t.
Hey Marine, thank you for your service. I have a healthy dose of skepticism when a company can’t get simple things correct. Go look at their website and look where they state that they exceed the fragmentation standards of MIL-P-46593A. Guess what this MIL standard is? It ain’t a frag test, that is for sure. This MIL STD describes the actual FSP fragment simulator itself, it does not specify the test used by any military in the world. Our military specifies MIL STD 662F which is the test protocol. Nato uses STANAG 2920 as one of their specifications for frag testing specifications. This type of claim will look official to the lay person, but to someone trained in the art it is a big neon sign flashing, “I don’t know what I am doing so I will put some official sounding military stuff on here”. So far I have generally asked questions about the actual weights of the armor, and this has not really been answered satisfactorily. The cheerleader section has conceded that DS is heavier that Interceptor, but has yet to put actual weights of each size vest and the surface areas they protect. I have tried to keep this from getting petty and nitpicking. I can assure you that you don’t know what you don’t know about armor. I don’t think many armor companies consider DS a threat to their market share. DS may eventually find a niche in the market. But they still have to get some certifications, and if they want to sell to the military they will still have to pass all the required tests. What I hope to achieve is that if you intend to purchase this armor you should ask to see some conclusive proof beyond what has been made available to the public to date.
P.S. I have been told that there are severe problems with unintentional cut-a-ways with the Eagle vest carrier. This is the carrier fielded to Special Operations and they are having to tie knots in the release cable to keep their armor from coming off in a firefight. Eagle copied the design of Paraclete’s patented vest, got sued, then negotiated a license agreement. So you are getting a poor copy of the original. I have no connection to Paraclete either. I just call them as I see them.
William I cannot believe you continue to troll this site and try to misinform these people. I have repeatedly told you that I was once down range, and having worn both the interceptor and Dragon Skin, I’d tell you that I would feel a hell lot safer with Dragon Skin. You have never worn Dragon Skin. Let me tell you why I’d choose dragon skin over the Interceptor standard issue anyday.
By the way, the one i wore was an SOV-3000 with full torso wrap for both front/back, MARPAT camo, and level IV protection.
1. Dragon Skin covers more area of the torso with level IV scales. So if you shot in the huge gaps that E-SAPI plates leave out, you’re going home safe and sound.
2. Dragon Skin is more flexible, and I’ll tell you it doesn’t feel as heavy as it weighs. Weight distribution is incredibly effective. It would be much easier to chase down some kid who just popped an IED if wearing DS rather than Interceptor OTV, hands down.
3. Better durability. They can take more hits than ESAPI plates. No need for further explanation, that’s common sense.
I know of an incident where a couple guys from the 3rd ID were on patrol, and were ambushed. The soldier who was shot was hit in the gut just under the plate, and was killed. This was in Anber Province. Had he been wearing Dragon Skin, he would have lived.
William I seirously do not see why you are doing this. Are you some agent sent by the government to dispell the truth and to continue to allow the Army to keep its contract with a manufacturer who makes inferior armor to our troops? This is disgusting, what you’re doing. There’s absolutely no doubt that Dragon Skin is capable of stopping level IV rounds. Independent testing is enough to prove it, but unfortunately, it is not good enough for people like you and the majority of armed forces and police precincts.
I see Pinnacle’s NIJ testing as a positive step to finally getting the truth out.
Guys, take this from a soldier’s perspective.
Dragon Skin is superior to any other body armor fielded in the military. Better protection, better mobility, and better comfort will make a better warfighter.
P.S.
I do not know how much DS weighs. But I’d like to re-iterate the fact that it feels lighter and is easier to function in.
Ok, I will bite. Look at all my posts on this site and then tell me one time where I am incorrect. Please use facts and not somebody’s opinion. No I am not a government agent, they don’t pay enough. I was poor when I was on active duty, now I make a good living. I think Dragon skin is promising. Go look at my posts, all I have done is asked questions, which still go unanswered. You guys keep hurling insults, but nobody ever answers the questions. This is the same tactic used by liberal democrats, just avoid the questions and yell louder. Again, I ask how much does DS weigh and how much coverage per vest size? This is a simple question. Do all you guys work for Pinnacle?
I have contacted my buddy via e-mail and he has weighed his vest and has even provided us with the weight of a SOV-2000 that one of his friends is also wearing. Note that these are for maximum area configs. (If yo uare wondering, they are stationed in Green Zone, Baghdad).
I have no clue as to the exact coverage area, but the part of every fully configured dragon skin vest that doesn’t have the scales is the shoulder straps. Everything else is covered. You can configure the area of coverage to meet your needs, so the coverage and weight will vary. As to weight,
SOV-2000 level III, full torso wrap (most area possible covered), Size Medium
=31.5 pounds for level III with maximum protection/coverage.
SOV-3000, full torso wrap for front and back (most area possible), level IV, Size Medium.
=37.3 pounds for level IV maximum area protection
So as you can see, the SOv-3000 is heavier than SOV-2000 at the same size. There is your info William.
A side note
both the vests I listed do include the weight for a neck protector and shoulder protectors(Level IIIA).
Another thing is how much armor is enough armor? We are really argueing about a few inches of armor coverage. This is an emotionally charged situation because our guys are under fire. But the reality is that their is a limit of how much armor a person can carry. The arguement is used that DS gives a little more protection than interceptor, and if this was the issue armor some more people would be around that were killed when they were shot just outside the SAPI plate. This is a true statement. But you still have many more areas of the body that will cause a casualty and DS does not cover those either. Specifically, the head and neck area, the groin area and the femoral arteries along you femur bones in you legs. You would need at least 100 lbs of armor to begin to cover all these critical areas. Everyone has gotten worked up on this emotional issue and Pinnacle lit the fuse. I think that this has become a big distraction over some more important issues, namely that the guys need some real fire protection from the burns that many more people are receiving than are being killed by the few bullets that miss the ceramic armor. The terrorists have already started shooting at the areas that do not have armor, so even if DS were fielded tomorrow it won’t make that big of a difference. I think that a good fire resistant undergarmet will save more guys than changing the armor will. But you guys can fight this battle if you want to, but I think that Pinnacle has made this a losing political battle even if they prove their armor has great capability. We should probably use our energy to get fire protection for the guys.
Harnu, thank you for your sincere answer. William
Harnu, by the weights and measures presented on this website, the Army’s ESAPI plates, side plates and OTV in size medium weigh 25.7 lbs and the Dragon Skin in size medium weighs 37.3 lbs. This makes the Dragon Skin 11.6 lbs heavier than the Interceptor for level IV protection. This is the 30 percent factor I was discussing earlier. Is the multi-hit increase really worth the 11.6 lbs weight penalty. This also means that the Interceptor Level IV is actually lighter than the Dragon Skin Level III since the Interceptor weighs 25.7 lbs and the SOV 2000 weighs 31 lbs. I would like to see an actual measurement of hard armor coverage between the two vests. That would settle the argument about the added weight. If Interceptor has the same amount of hard armor coverage and is lighter than Dragon skin, then how can Dragon skin be better? This may explain why Pinnacle relies on their videos so much. And it would also explain why the Army rejected DS, since they cannot compete with Interceptor when it comes to the weight penalty. What do you think?
Frankly, I hope that’s not the reason the Army rejected it.
When I picked up the Sov-2000 i can almost promise you it didn’t feel like it was even 30 pounds. Perhaps the vest weight I was given had ammo or sweat or something. It was heavier than the Interceptor, but It didn’t feel too terribly heavy. Anyway, I was OK with the weight, it was fair enough for the amount of extra protection I was getting. I’ll consult with my buddy again to confirm, and I’ll get back to you on the weight. Anyways,
After a while, though, you get used to it (as you do with all body armor) and it really isn’t hard to work in. I’d tell you it was easier to transition from firing positions because it was flexible, and the arms definitely had a greater unimpeded range of motion. Again, I don’t know the exact area coverage, but it’s easy to remember (visually) because you can see the scales poking out of the vest somewhat. There weren’t many gaps. I’ll e-mail my buddy about that too.
If its too heavy for you, you can always configure it so that there is only a 10×12 panel of dragon skin. There are many different configurations of scale coverage, some that are less than what the interceptor offers, and a lot of configs that offer more. That would significantly cut the weight, provide protection vs rifle rounds, and the soft armor portion of the dragon skin (which is layered below the scales as a trauma layer) is IIIA, whereas the interceptor’s cannot be called that because it cannot stop a .44 magnum round.
For the level III config, both the full torso wraps (front adn back) weigh 8.97 pounds. Since there’s two of those, and since the vest total is 28.6 pounds, the soft armor portion under the scales is 10.66 pounds. It turns out that the vest had a walkie talkie and tracking device clipped to it when first weighed.
As to the SOV-3000, it has been re-weighed and was not altered (they had it right the first time). My buddy said the vest has come out to be 36.8 pounds (and, I have asked him to triple-check this). The reason why it weighed more last time was from sweat, he said.
So recalculated weights and these I have double checked with him are the vests themselves, not carrying anything on them.
Recalculated weights
SOV full wrap (max protection) level III
28.6 IBs
SOV full wrap level IV
36.8 pounds
both sizes medium
these have been triple checked
Just to be sure about these measurements, I have contacted Pinnacle’s consulting department via e-mail. I’ll have the reply by tomorrow morning.
William,
You once served in the military. Why not try to get your hands on a DS and keep it as a souvenier? I don’t think you can really judge it by its weight. Once you wear it you’ll know why I believe that this vest should replace the Interceptor/MTV.
Thanks Harnu for the info. I don’t understand why Pinnacle plays hide the salmi when it comes to specifications. They take the approach of “its the best, just buy it”. This is the reason I was asked by some of my buddies to check this out for them and report back if i thought DS was worth the money. Especially since none of the services have bought this and Pinnacle upset the apple cart for everyone, then they failed the Army test. I understand that platelet armor has tremendous multihit capabilities, I also know that it has a built in weight penalty. My knowledge of the industry and armor materials made me extremely skeptical of Pinacle’s claims about 17 pound level IV vests. I can see the possibility of a 36 lb vest achieving level IV stopping power. Now it just needs to be tested in a formal environment so it can be verified. Pinnacle has put themselves at a disadvantage by not putting their armor out for 3rd party scrutiny before now. their methods for engaging the Army has caused many people to not be able to use the armor they paid for themselves. So they not only screwed their own customers ability to buy more DS and use it but they also screwed all the other commercial manufacturers as well. A lot of my SF buddies were using whatever armor the felt met their mission profile, now they “have” to wear the complete issued armor system. Many of them are not real pleased with Pinnacle and another manufacturer who also caused a stink by claiming that SOF armor was defective, since they forced the commands to make a decision, now everyone has to tow the line. I have quite a few friends who currently work doing security work in Iraq and Afghanistan, several of them have asked me about DS. I encountered so much smoke and mirrors, and you would think that a company trying to sell a product would want to provide accurate information so customers would buy their product. I have never had this experience before when trying to find out about a product. I got the run around from Pinnacle, so I when I saw all the news announcements from Defense Review, Defense Tech, etc, all spinning the same thing with the videos, and could not get straight answers I became very sceptical and I have followed many of the forums to see what info was out there. I have not seen one real AP bullet fired in any of the videos, including the discovery channel videos. The one that really got me going was the blue training grenade. I had to throw the bull$hit flag when I saw that one. The guy on the Discovery channel is an ex-SEAL and should have known better. I now question whether he is on Pinnacle’s payroll or is just friggin incompetent.
Time will tell if Dragon Skin makes it in the market or not. Thanks Harnu for the info, at least there is one honest guy on this forum.
They do have 17 pound level IV vests. Those vests have their standard coverage configuration (remember, they have tons of configs. the best is called Full Torso Wrap, covers the entire torso except for shoulder straps). The standard coverage offers the same front and back coverage as the ESAPI plates do, plus additional lower torso coverage. It doesn’t guard the sides though.
An impostor has posted the last post in an attempt to stir things up. I did not make the post.
C’mon Harnu14 you’re my only friend.By the way are you gay too?
Hey buddy, I’m not here to diss dragon skin. I believe in its protection and superiority over current army stuff because I have worn both the current military issue and the DS. I’m trying to argue in favor of giving Dragon Skin to our troops.
Harnu I can’t believe the $hit these idiots are posting.It’s always gay this gay that and they never have anything to say about the pros-cons of dragonskin.They are so retarded that they can’t even come up with reasons why dragonskin should be endorsed by military/police.A bunch of fags.By the way what are you doing saturday night.lol!!!
Where can i get a DragonSkin vest and does anyone know the approximate cost of one? I’m a police officer but our dept. don’t have any spares plus the ones issued are pretty heavy… thanks
Unless the tests of Dragon Skin shown on the “Weaponology” television program were faked it is very capable. Most dramatic was the test where Dragon Skin protected against the blast of a grenade in a situation where one wearing the vest had fallen on a live grenade. Liklely the militay bureaucracy is in bed with the current manufacterers who do not want to lose their contracts.
Why does every moron get on line and diss everything? All that is important is that PPE or “Body Armor” does the job. It doesn’t take a genius to know whether or not a paricular type of “Body Armor” does the job. Does it stop AK-47 Rounds? Does it stop fragments from a grenade? Does it stop fragments from IED? Does it stop 9mm bullets? Does it do the above at realistic distances from the wearer and does it weigh a realistic and acceptable weight?
What is important are the G.I.’s and Marines wearing the “Body Armor”. Any body who is more interested in profit or kick backs for some product that does not do the job should be made to walk the roads and highways in Iraq where so many men and women risk their lives for us wearing the inferior product they allow to be issued to our young and very brave soldiers and Marine? Disagree with me? Then you walk the dangerous paths we send are children who have volunteered to serve their country and protect us to walk.
Why does every moron get on line and diss everything? All that is important is that PPE or “Body Armor” does the job. It doesn’t take a genius to know whether or not a paricular type of “Body Armor” does the job. Does it stop AK-47 Rounds? Does it stop fragments from a grenade? Does it stop fragments from IED? Does it stop 9mm bullets? Does it do the above at realistic distances from the wearer and does it weigh a realistic and acceptable weight?
What is important are the G.I.’s and Marines wearing the “Body Armor”. Any body who is more interested in profit or kick backs for some product that does not do the job should be made to walk the roads and highways in Iraq where so many men and women risk their lives for us wearing the inferior product they allow to be issued to our young and very brave soldiers and Marine? Disagree with me? Then you walk the dangerous paths we send are children who have volunteered to serve their country and protect us to walk.
In the late 70′s I was new to a local volunteer fire department. Some guys bought their own insulated leather gloves and insulated bunker pants. One of the chiefs told the guys to stop wearing them because they were not approved. What was approved was red uninsulated rubber gloves and pull up rubber doots. These offered very little protection. Now very similar gloves and pants are the gold standard in the fire service. Moral of the story: If it’s not the administrations idea and the individual doesn’t follow established procedures the equipment must be bad.
From now on I (William) will be posting by the name Bill so if you see anything posted by william it is not me.
I hope anyone who supports dragonskin can deal with the casualties that come from it.Dragonskin is not up to par with Interceptor at all.
Phil, one should remember when you point your finger at someone that three are pointing back. Everyone has jumped on the Dragon Skin band wagon and think there is a government conspiracy to keep it from the troops. I am sure now that there has been some congressional inquiries into this matter that Pinacle’s armor will be found wanting. I had a buddy call me today about DS and a some of the guys who have been wearing DS are finding the vests coming apart internally. So before everyone starts talking about inferior, we should see what happens to DS when it is actually used in the field for an extended time period. I think Pinacle’s problems are just beginning.
Once again someone has posted using my old post name.These are not my viewpoints but they are similar so in a way I am on their side.However I never knew of anyone with the Dragonskin because if I did I would have never have asked for weights/measurements.Also I don’t believe I could have a friend who’s armor is falling apart internally if I don’t know anyone with the armor.
Yeah it’s pretty stupid that all people want to do is diss Dragonskin.I mean get real who on any public forum would have any usefull knowledge about armor in general.This forum has now been designated for wannabe experts and dumb-shit know nothings.People who do work with or have worked with armor don’t care about these forums because they have better things to do.When I stumbled upon this forum I thought it would be refreshing to give everyone out there a real American man’s perspective without all the pitter patter b.s. that everyone else likes to spew.
I inquired if anyone knew where i could get a Dragon vest.I am also in a line of duty, although it’s only a police officer.I don’t have a vest due to the fact our dept. is out of them, plus they’re heavy to wear since they’re heavily lined.Thats why i inquired if anyone knew where i might could get a DS vest..but i’m also told they cost $2100.00 each so that leaves me out. I’m a single mom w/3 kids to raise so moneys tight…that leaves me out……..thanks for all your kind responses and noticing a female officer was on here asking for information…..but nevertheless…if you’re in my area, i’ll still keep protecting you to the best of my ability!! Patti
pinnaclearmor.com
then call them up. their number is on their site. you can consult with them what kind of body armor you want, and how high level the protection is, and how much area of the body armor will be covered with the Dragon Skin itself (Dragon skin is made of soft armor kevlar but with the hard flexible shell that it is known to have). all areas that are not covered by dragon skin are level IIIA soft armor.
My brother is an active duty Marine, I’m a Navy veteran, my father is retired Air Force, my uncle is retired Navy and my grandfather is an Army veteran. I say all this because everything I’ve read and seen about this body armor says that it IS the next generation of protection that our troops need. I’d rather see my brother come home from deployment shaken and alive than horizontal and dead.
I believe that the reason the Army and now the Marine Corp are shooting down (no pun intended) Dragon Skin is that the generals in charge of these projects are either the same ones that were in charge of the Bradley or their protoges and no longer have any sense of loyalty to the troops but rather to their own pet projects. In other words, they didn’t think of it so they don’t want it.
Dragonskin is the best and if you mess with the best you die like the rest.To all non-supporters of Dragonskin you should die of gonorhea and rot in hell.SEMPER FI
first off Does the vest ever expire? I don’t know if you know that other vest have an expiration date on them. Once you wear it you usually have like one year to replace it even if you do not get shot in it>
second the cost?
If you spend the same amount of time researching body armor as you do before you buy an Ipod. You will see that Dragon Skin is over hyped, too heavy, and maybe offers marginal improvements over the issued Interceptor vest. You can spend $5ooo bucks for a DS vest or use the free Interceptor vest. The Interceptor definitely stops Armor Piecing bullets, the DS still does not have an AP certification. Plus if you buy it, you will be out the money if you unit will not allow you to use it. I think you would be better off buying the thingss you need and wait and see if DS can get ceritifed.
I can’t believe that you are so gullible to believe the conspiracy crap about awarding of contracts. I do believe that the government does unfairly assess the risks of awarding smaller companies large production contracts, but other than that, I don’t believe for a minute with all the political pressure to get the troops better equipment that the Army would or could get in the way of a new armor technology. Like I have said before, platelet armor is not new, it is just new to you. The mulit-hit capabilities have been well known, and that is exactly how most vehicle armor achieves multi-hit. The closer the shot spacing the smaller the armor tiles. I have seen 1″ tiles used. No one has been willing to accept the 30% increase in armor weight and costs. The Russians used this technology in the 80′s for their troops in Afghanistan, in fact they had three successive upgrades to the technology during the war against the Mujihadeen. So you can shout at the top of your lungs about “new” technology. I will continue to point out that it is not new or novel, just a different way to make body armor. Every armor system has trade offs. Nothing is free, Dragon Skin pays a weight penalty to get a mulit-hit capablity. I know they are not using the lightest ceramic available which is Boron Carbide, so if their armor weight is not at least 30% heavier than certified armor they do not have enough tile thickness for the Armor Piercing threats involved. You can stick you head in the sand if you want to, but physics are still physics. Since everyone keeps saying DS will stop AP how about making one of those fancy videos you all like to show off so much using real AP bullets.
The military, or at least key parts of it, has been pretty dismal in the past at admitting it was wrong. Thus “bureaucratic inertia” has been common historically.
For example the copper cased 45-70 ammo of the Indian wars, people died but the higher ups had decided it was good so it was good, dead troopers was not sufficient reason for them to admit it was inferior to commercial ammo with brass cases.
Then there was the 50%+- unreliable torpedo used for about 1/2 of WWII.
The only thing that made the Sherman tank a success was that it did not break down as much as the German panzers and we could make them fast enough the enemy could achieve a 10-20 to 1 kill ratio and still be faced with Shermans.
The bean counters refused to listen to Colt concerning propellant powders for the M-16 and people died.
Thus one must wonder if the DS is being disregarded because it really is not that good or because someone thinks his rep might be damaged by admitting DS is better.
Its going to require field testing to settle this. Lab tests of brand new vests are not the real world.
Issue them to training commands if nothing else and see how they standup to constant wear & tear and if they retain their protection level.
William you admit that the government unfairly asseses awarding developing companies large production contracts.William here is a fact (something rare to you)over 53% of all gunshot wounds in Iraq are not to the plates in the vests.The insurgents have found out the weak spots of the system and are aiming specificly for areas of less protection.Dragonskin could thwart their efforts by putting more protection all arround the soldier instead of the using a plate system.I mean get real, do you really think an insurgent is going to aim for the plate?This ain’t target practice it’s life or death.I can’t wait until Dragonskin is passed by NIJ.William you are the only one saying more weight is a very bad drawback.It to me is the smallest drawback I’ve ever heard of.You may want to hit up your local gym because you sound like a 95 pounder who thinks we can’t carry weight.
I said that I think the Army unfairly assigns higher risk ratings when evaluating small companies, especially when a very large part of the time the work is awarded to a large company and then actually done by small companies that the Army considers high risk.
Pinnacle is a different story. They have been in business for over a decade. You cannot consider them a developing company. A company is considered a startup for the first 5 years. Pinnacle is way beyond that window.
Historically, bomb fragments have been the largest casualty produce on the battlefield. Nothing has changed. You like to quote numbers, how many of our guys have been killed by rifle fire versus bomb fragments? Pinnacle has used the Marine Corps report as a marketing campaign. I find this tactic disgusting.
After 10 years of product development, why don’t they have any industry recognized certifications. They have certainly spent enough money shooting vests for videos and the discovery channel. They could have had the vests certified years ago and then we would not be having this conversation.
SPC Roger, in how far are 53% of all gunshot wounds not to the plates? Does that mean that 47% of all gunshot wounds are because of penetrated plates? Sorry but I think you mixed something up.
Do you quote the old USMC report or is there new anything new? The old report isn’t valid any longer because of axillary plates and ESAPI. Something new would be really interesting. A link would be usefull, because numbers in percent posted here are useless. Some guy before posted that 80% of all lethal torso wounds were near plates. But as the main portion of the torso is already covered with hard armor it’s quite logic that nearly all torso wounds are near plates. It would be really nice to know where exactly the hits are and if they were deadly or not.
Another point Roger:Yes of course insurgents don’t want to hit the plates. Snipers try to hit weak spots like shoulders, upper chest/back, throat, head, hip, lower abdomen. But most of those areas wont be covered by SOV3000, too. And snipers would addapt their tactics quickly. That is as sniping is concerned. You say, you’re a soldier, so you should know that during a firefight, you hardly aim for gaps in body armor. You are more likely to spray bullets or aim for center mass, dependending on situation. So during firefights you hit plates or gaps just as statistics are concerned. The choice between weight and protection in this case is a matter of taste, hardly a fact.
Another point you don’t get is that you don’t need DS for greater rifle-protection. Right now the discussion is only about weight and coverage, because most other features of SOVs were either non-existent or unimportant. You can get larger coverrage, and somehow flexibility by adding mini rifle trauma plates. Why don’t you buy them? You can add them right now. That’s cheaper, modular and you are allowed to wear it.
It’s also very funny, that most guys here claimed before that DS would be a great weight reduction and that this is sooooo important, because insurgents outrun our troops and our soldiers and Marines are overloaded. Well, as SOV2000 is penetrated by SVD etc. and heavier SOV3000 (of course after some guy claimed that it weights 19,5lb before the real weight appeared more often) is needed you say: “hoho you are to weak to carry 8lb more”. First you shouldn’t compare to the old IBA. With IOTV it is about 11lb difference and it has a better fit than old OTV, too. Second as a soldier you should know that you can always carry additional stuff. So why doesn’t every soldier get a M203 and AT4? That would really add some firepower. And of course you wear your moonsuite, because most casualties are caused by IEDs. Oh yeah, and some guys here also want DS boots and helmets. Statistically fatalities will be reduced by that and you feel a lot safer.
So I state again: Yes, there is an use for scalar design. And yes in some situations it is clearly superior to current IBA. And yes you may be able to wear the additional weight. But as a general fielding is concerned, newer IBA variants are better suited because of costs, weight, logistics, modularity etc.
As a contractor doing convoy security or so I guess DS is better, but as a standart item IBA is better suited.
What fascinates me is that people are so fanatic about DS, thus it is clearly not a “quantum step” in armor technology as claimed. And sorry again but I ask myself why the hell do people think that the army sabotaged the DS testing? On the one hand there is a body armor manufactor who wants to sell his stuff. On the other hand there is the US Army and Marine Corps. Of course corruption occurs and Karl Masters I-net posts are strange, but there isn’t any proof for active sabotage. If a car fails a crash test you normaly blame the car not the testers. And even if it passes NIJ right now, it says nothing, because Army testing is different and quality problems that may have occured back then can be solved right now. So please calm down and start thinking again.
I just reviewed the independent test on the Pinnacle website conducted by Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, is this the same guy who likes to argue with real trauma surgeons, I guess his background as a “dentist” prepares him with special insight that trauma surgeons don’t have. He is a link where some real surgeons are questioning Dr.Robert’s findings about the use of ballistic gelatin. http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=875 Maybe Pinnacle should have made a better choice when looking for someone to conduct independent tests. Maybe we are seeing a pattern of behavior here where this crowd has found another reality that the rest of us are just too stupid to see.
The last post was not made by me, it was yet another imposter. I do think that DS is promising, but the only way we will really find out if it stands up to the test is through level IV certification. Furthermore, it is clearly the case that termination of IBA contracts will result in loss of jobs, monies, and credibility between the Army/Marine Corps. and its suppliers. The armed forces is just a big money machine, and DS clearly exceeds the IBA in the task of providing comfortable, flexible, and superior protection for the troops. Hans, you would come to expect that an armor offering 44%level IV protection area would weigh marginally more than the IBA with its four uncomfortable/brittle/outdated plates.
And @Hans, yes. You indeed can purchase a 19.5 pound level IV DS. Take the time to look at their scale configurations before you question the validity of our statements.
@Hans again. If DS passes level IV tests, it says a lot more than what you could fabricate in your entire lifetime. NIJ level IV standards for flexible armor require six shots in a 10×12 configuration to be stopped whereas for the plates, only one shot. The quality of plate level IV armor is questionable, as is its flexibility, comfort, and durability. If DS can withstand level IV rounds, it can withstand level IV rounds. Not some junk that you make up. And, to the contrary, the tests were indeed sabotaged. 10/33 vests tested, rounds fired into soft portion of DS, testers playing crossword puzzles, claims that level IV armor failed to stop level IV rounds (military spec is what pinnacle uses to test its armor, Hans. Visit their ballistic chart on their web site)- sounds like they knew what the results would be before even getting to test it.
LOL, hey fake William, NIJ Level IV only requires 1 shot, the military requirement is higher. Isn’t it past your bedtime? You can go ahead and use your real name, or should I just call you the head cheerleader?
Everyone who posts on this forum is a very educated unrelenting geniously inquisitive intellectually undvanced dreadfull uninsightful waste of useless information of nothinghess.Get a job/life/use/purpose/girlfriend/.To anyone who has anything to say shoot away because real huMANs don’t give a shit about these “forums”.AND YOU KNOW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone who posts on this forum is a very educated unrelenting geniously inquisitive intellectually undvanced dreadfull uninsightful waste of useless information of nothinghess.Get a job/life/use/purpose/girlfriend/.To anyone who has anything to say shoot away because real huMANs don’t give a shit about these “forums”.AND YOU KNOW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No I like DS
fake-William, I posted before and it was actually me who offered weights of different SOV3000 versions some time ago. Then look e.g. at the posts of David and e. E compared a fully rigged IBA to an SOV 3000 and said it weights 19lb. The other William asked for the weight of a fully rigged SOV3000 and David said size XL is 19,5lb. Perhaps you should start reading before critizising. And sorry your 19lb SOV3000 as I stated before has no fundamental supiority to ESAPI. Scalar design only makes sense if larger areas are covered.
Another point: I never said anything bad about NIJ testing. I only said that passing NIJ right now, doesn’t proof any sabotage claims. And where do you get your insider-infos about specific sabotage claims? Sorry, but quoting some Pinnacle charts and press releases is like quoting Karl Masters. You can believe what you want but you can hardly show any sabotage claims as a fact.
And one little question: Why doesn’t “my junk” (mini rifle trauma plates) work? I said that you can also get your greater coverage with other systems. They are tested and they stop level IV rounds. And as they are additional to your issued Body Armor, they are allowed to wear. So what are you critizising about this statement? Of course as greater coverage is concerned scalar design has several advantages. But you might have read some parts of my post before and I said, with some quite valid arguments that IOTV + plates are a good compromise as weight, price, mulit-hit capability, modularity and covarge are concerned. You can always add more armor for more weight and I said that adding armor and weight is clearly a matter of taste. I also stated that greater coverage is usefull in some situations and that SOV3000 is superior for some certain tasks. But for a general fielding it is not. I am not arguing against DS, I am arguing against wrong claims and hype. When Sean says he prefers a heavier vest for more coverage I say, well that’s fine, it’s your choice you know what you’re up to do. But you should realize that chosing hard plate armor for standart issue isn’t as dumb as you’re saying.
Well said Hans. These guys have a warped sense of reality. There is no way you can convince me of the logic involved with saying heavier armor does not matter. Pinnacle’s claims of superior armor will not stand up to scrutiny. In order to be superior, they will have to do it at the same areal density as the Interceptor armor weights, and the DS will not stop the AP at those weights. What do you have to say now there Fake William?
allah is the greatest bitches
???EDSDS??? If you don’t give crap why did you post anything? That really makes a lot of sense, why do you even bother reading? LOL
If you shipped me to Iraq I would scurry over to pinnacle and buy the Dragon Skin SOV-3000 without any hesitation. I recommend you, William, to do so as well. The insurgents are aware of the enourmous gaps that comes with current military issue.
Here’s why:
It fits better because its got good distribution, putting weight all through out the body.
It’s flexible, so I will be able to chase guys down and lean more easily, which is great for urban combat.
It stops level IV rounds. Sorry guys, it’s true.
It covers more area of the torso. No “modular” system can match the area protection of Dragon Skin.
Yes, some of you may be pansys and whine about its weight, but just remember that it is more comfortable than the standard issue, and that we have had a number of testimonials from users about its functionability and comfort (as opposed to standard military gear).
You talk the talk, but when you get called over to duty, you’ll have to walk the walk.
Has anyone heard about the new 25lb. vests that are being worn by a platoon that is stationed in Kuwait?I saw the story on the news this morning but couldn’t find the controller in time to hear what company was making them.I did hear that there could soon be a permanent replacement for the Interceptor and it looks like there will be.I don’t think it was Dragonskin so it could just be the MTV’s I’ve been hearing about for a while.Anyways there seems to be changes coming about, and I hope that America’s soldiers get the best because God only knows what they are going through,with all the media and anti-war crap that I hope they don’t hear about.Our soldiers want to serve their country as best as possible and it is already hard enough to drive through the streets in Iraq not knowing if or when an IED is going to go off.I think this country needs to get on the same page as our military and see that since 9-11 this world has changed for the worse.We as a country have to stay the course and get some sort of order in Iraq because if we don’t then it will be like Vietnam for this generation.Nam changed me in a way that is indescribable.I was divorced 6 times in the course of 8 years and have been a drug addict,an alchoholic,homeless,suicidal,borderline insane,incarcerated.I am just now enjoying the life I should have had when I came home from hell as I used to say.When you come home from any war the last thing you want to hear on the news is that people are protesting it and that the majority of the citizens are against it.I remember getting off a bus and being called every name in the book and to have that happen at a critical time in your life is very devastating,basicly it made me hate myself and go insane.I know this forum ain’t for veterans issues so I’ll just say this lets give our troops the best and treat them the way they want to be treated (like men/women who did their best)instead of protesting the war (which is every American’s right-yet it is so wrong to protest a war and then turn arround and say “well we support the troops”).The truth of the matter is you can’t protest the war and support the troops at the same time.Because all that soldier sees is people protesting him or her doing the job that is his or her duty.Lets get our soldiers in battle, the greatest of everything and make sure they make it home safe.
LOL Fake Hans, thank you for using my name. Well, thanks because you hit the nail on the head. No modular vest gives you that protection as a fully rigged SOV 3000. No modular plate system and no modular DS-system. But standard issue body armor needs to be modular because it has to be mission tailored. So DS won
White power!
Dear William,
I am a contractor stationed in the Green Zone, Baghdad. My buddy and former squadmate, “Harnu14″, informed me about this forum. Although you may think of him as an ex Army soldier, the fact of the matter is that he never served in the 82nd Airborne (or any military branch, for that matter). We were both contractors for a short period of time, then he decided to pursue another career on U.S. soil. We have both had experience with Dragon Skin Armor, level IV, SOV-3000. I wear a size medium, and it does not weigh over 30 pounds.
What “Harnu14″ was trying to get at here was that he just wanted you to believe in Dragon Skin, so he deicded to cede some “ground”. It, in reality, is 28 pounds for an SOV-3000, level IV, size medium, full torso wrap. And you can put money on that. If you don’t believe me, e-mail pinnacle consulting at consulting@pinnaclearmor.com and ask them for the weight of the specified vest above.
For someone in the field like me, I don’t care about the fact regarding who invented flexible armor (Allan Bain) or who invented Dragon Skin (Murray Neal). Not to say that I don’t care about these people; I don’t care about the schematics or the corporate/PR tieups between Pinnacle Armor and the government/military/whatnot.
Dragon Skin is a solid, flexible, comfortable, and reliable vest. In my three years here I have dived out of an ambushed vehicle, slapped my body around the streets of Baghdad, and been in a handful of smaller engagements. Dragon Skin has never fallen apart internally, and I can tell you that my movement is much less restricted as opposed to wearing plate armor. It allows warfighters to function ease and provides impressive protection from all small arms threats we encounter here. This is a great vest and I would take this with me into battle anywhere in the world.
I strongly recommend you see Dragon Skin for yourself. Pick it up, wear it, shoot it (if possible). Just familiarize yourself with it. It’s a great product and its saved the lives of dozens of other contractors in the past 4 years.
Hit Me
Dragon Skin is made of cardboard and cannot stop an airsoft pellet travelling at 280 feet persecond. I am an idiot.
Fake Hans, you’re right. You are an idiot. And atop that, I believe that Dragon Skin is the best armor that offers the best protection out there. Furthermore, I firmly believe that it should be given fair testing besides having some fool sabotage it for the sake of a slick military beaurocracy and contract.
The GAO just released a report on Interceptor Armor you can see the abstract or read the full report. http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-07-662R
Anymore news on Dragon Skin testing in a real lab yet?
Let me correct myself. Dragon Skin will recieve its level IV pass by the end of May, at the latest.
To all who doubt dragon skin, ask the individual soldier. they are the ones wearing body armor and fighting. from what I hear, they prefer dragon skin to IBA any day, any way, any where.
STOP ARGUING ABOUT DRAGONSKIN IF IT IS SUPPERIOR IT WILL ARGUE FOR ITSELF WHEN IT IS TESTED.BY THE WAY THERE ARE NEW VESTS BEING IMPLEMENTED RIGHT NOW AND YET NO ONE ON THIS FORUM HAS ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THEM.I BELIEVE THEY ARE THE, NOT SO MUCH TALKED ABOUT MTV’S THAT ARE AT LEAST A STEP UP FROM THE INTERCEPTOR.
WHAT I FAILED TO REALIZE IS THAT DRAGON SKIN WAS TESTED UNFAIRLY BY THE ARMY AND THEREFORE “FAILED” TESTING. I ALSO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CAPS LOCK, AS YOU CAN SEE
Wayne you’re a bit out of line with your statement but I can see where the thoughts are coming from.I mean “payoff for murdering our troops”is a little out there it’s more like a raise for keeping supperior armor off our soldiers.In the meantime the MTV armor is a better replacement for the Interceptor and will soon be the standard military issue.So everyone who says/said that the Interceptor is supperior to all other armor have been proven wrong once again.
Allah=shit
Islamics=dirtier shits
Terrorists=sesspool shits with only dirt for food
And don’t anyone try to violate my free speech rights by taking this off the forum.
Looks like we have some crazies in here today.However I’d like to talk about something relevant to body armor.The MTV is going to be our flagship armor and will soon replace all of the Interceptors if the in the field testing goes as planned.So I ask how does Dragonskin hold up to the MTV and where is William on how the MTV will hold up against the pros and cons of the Interceptor.To me it looks like Interceptor ain’t even in the race of the future armor systems we use.
MTV is the same thing as the interceptor. Same protection, same plates, same THING except its 3 pounds heavier than the interceptor. On the flipside, its weight distribution makes it feel like its 20 pounds. therefore, its better than the interceptor, but not as good as Dragon Skin.
Also, Allah is not shit. Humans percieve their gods differently, and its all a part of humanity. Don’t be an ignorant fool and close the door on a billion people; get the testicular fortitude to deal with people appropiately.
I agree that terrorists are idiots though. Note: terrorists do not include ALL insurgents in Iraq. many iraqis are just people who want the U.S. out. that’s understandable- you can’t go in someones country and raise hell by having a couple of incidents in prisons involving abuse and whatnot. Many of the insurgents aren’t the murderous fools who behead people and want to establish a muslim government or w.e. They jsut want their country back so they can have a go at fixing it themselves (or destroying it).
Ignorance is what is driving many conflicts throughout the world today, and as long as you fail to resist it, Rocky, you only adding to the list of problems humanity faces in this time of global crisis (global warming, energy crisis, poverty, war). Clean yourself up.
Also Rocky
I respect your right for freedom of speech. However, freedom also encompasses the freedom to be a fool. Yes, you can say whatever your want, but that also means that you’re free to make wrong decisions. The iraqis were given freedom, and they choose to wage war and destroy their own country through sectarian killing and ignorance/excessive pride. Case in point.
Don’t hide behind an amendment that so many fought for and died to protect. Instead, honor their sacrafice and say something meaningful please. You’re an American and we need to make leaps in order to regain our global credibility.
Erica,
MTV will only be issued for marines. the army is getting a new Interceptor. It’s still the same as the old one basically. The only difference is it fits better and offers more soft armor protection (against shrapnel and pistol rounds) on the lower back.
sorry for the multiple posts.
carry on
No Sean you are wrong the MTV’s are going to be issued to ARMY as well and my Sgt. said it would be about a year before the MTV’s would be issued.Sorry to rain on your parade of faulty knowledge but I happen to be in military and this vest is not just for Marines.The vest is more weight proportionate and is very durable probably more so than Interceptor and Dragonskin.The Interceptor will be used until the MTV’s production meets the minimum requirement for mass production supply.
Daniel,
First off, thanks for serving. no matter what you say, we’re all Americans and i’m glad you take the time to post here.
Now, down to business
the MTV utilizes the same kevlar soft armor as the interceptor, along with the same E-SAPI front, back, and side plates which are rated for level IV ballistic protection according to NIJ. It offers the same protection as the interceptor (but it does have an additional soft armor panel on the lower back, offering more protection against shrapnel).
You cannot say, however, that it is more durable than Dragon Skin. The MTV itself is designed to stop pistol and shrapnel, but not rifle. The plates for the MTV which can stop rifle rounds are inflexible and can only withstand 3 level IV impacts whereas dragon skin is completely flexible, has the same weight distribution benefits of MTV, and can take dozens of hits from level III and probably dozens from level IV (we will have to wait for NIJ to approve Dragon Skin for level IV protection)
At the moement, the Army will be getting this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Army_IOTV.jpg
updated interceptor.
the MTV is a leap over the interceptor, though. Its soft armor is level IIIA, because it can stop a .44 magnum, whereas the interceptor cannot be called that because it can’t stop a 44 magnum. But, MTV still doesn’t stand up to Dragon Skin.
Dragon Skin can be configured so that it stops rifle rounds (level IV protection) on all areas except for the shoulder fastener straps, which are only designed to be level IIIA (same as the soft armor of an MTV). As a result, it offers protection for your entire torso (aside from your shoulders) from armor piercing rifle rounds.
There’ve been many marines and soldiers who were shot by insurgents in the unprotected upper,lower back area, as well as the unprotected upper/lower/oblique chest area (by oblique, I mean all the area of body not covered by the ESAPI plate from a frontal view. I know that the side plates are now in action). Take Dragon Skin with you for now because its clearly superior than the Interceptor, and probably the MTV as well.
Let me make it simple:
MTV is basically an interceptor that can stop a bigger pistol bullet, offers a little bit more protection from shrapnel, and feels like it weighs a whole hell of a lot lighter than the interceptor. It’s also more easy to function in because it was adapted to accomodate a rifle stock (simulating combat where the soldier aims). Other than that, its plates are the same as those of the Interceptor and thats pretty much it. An improvement, obviously. But better than Dragon Skin? No.
Sean your point is well taken and you are pretty much right about the MTV.However it cannot be said by anyone right now that Dragonskin is better than the MTV or Interceptor because it simply has not been certified by NIJ or anyone else for that matter.The vest does seem very promising though and I support the development of any better armor.The problem is of course as we all know there seems to be a huge controversy over Dragonskin and it’s testers.They should really get the ball rolling with these vests because if it is as good as it sounds it should really be a standard issue vest.My question is when the hell is “NIJ” going to test Dragonskin and will that even have an effect on our military’s decision about it.I mean if it was unfairly tested and it turns out they just absurdly tested Dragonskin then someone needs to lose their job over this because this is bullshit that we are deploying to Iraq soon and there could be better armor for us.I like to think better of our military because I eat,breath,sleep and shit ARMY and I’ll be damned if someone is going to decide what armor is better without being qualified or just has allterrior motives/prejudice towards something that could save thousands of lives.I too hope that Dragonskin will live up to it’s promises but it seems like it’s a long ways away from being America’s standard issue armor.And to sum it up I don’t know if it was a fairly tested armor or not but if it’s as good as everyone thinks then it should be retested by different people who wouldn’t sabbotage something and risk the loss of life just because they want to keep their wallets stuffed in self interest.
Do you know how much dragon skin armor is
Gunny rocks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMEIORtJ-DE
^ thats a video showing the flexibility and durability of Dragon Skin. They fire level III rounds (AK 47 bullet, otherwise known as the 7.62X39mm).
I think that Pinnacle is in deep dukey for lying about their armor. My crystal ball says that the Army will be vindicated and Pinnacle will be indicted for fraud and treason. So much for a leap in technology.
William you’re wrong. Pinnacle would never lie about their armor performance. Every threat on their ballistics chart, located in their web site, has been thoroughly tested and assured. Many of those rounds meet or exceed level IV threat specifications according to the MIL-SPEC. I’m joining the Dragon Skin bandwagon now, sorry Will. We had a good run.
I was issued Dragon Skin by Pinnacle for a Law Enforcement Mission to Iraq in April and May of 2006. As a Vietnam Veteran (Mekong Delta – 1969) and law enforcement officer, I was concerned about the Army’s old guard put-downs. I visited their facilities in Fresno, California and have seen first hand the results of actual testing and performance. It is absolutely superior to the Army’s and this has the appearance of some retired general’s getting cut out of revenue or something! Take Army Issue and Dragon Skin, any idiot can see side by side the improvement this fine company has made in the ballistic tests. I value each and every soldier and marine, they should have the best, and that is all we should be concerned about here! Brian “Doc” Burry
William how can you say that Pinnacle lied about Dragonskin?First of all what are the lies?Second of all, I belieive there is more evidence to support that it’s testers lied and they should be indicted for treason and fraudulent claims.And who would care what anyone has to say that uses a crystal ball.Once again you’ve made yourself the ass of this forum.If your crystal ball would tell you anything it would say, “you know nothing of what you speak of” and that would be followed by try again later dipshit.I think it’s quite clear that Dragonskin hasn’t lied about their armor but what isn’t clear is why it’s military testers have made Dragonskin the most talked about armor ever.It is afterall their fault for the popularity of Dragonskin.If they didn’t publicly diss Dragonskin then hardly anyone would know of it.It sounds like there could be a conspiracy to make Dragonskin sale the patents to their company and then have the government make the vests $10,000. a piece instead of $5000.00 a piece.
I’m back
William for the love of your credibility, your fellow countrymen fighting and dying, your country, and for truth, stop detracting Dragon Skin. It’s better than the army issue, plain and simple. As you now know I was a contractor along with my buddy Wayne and we have experienced a level III and IV dragon skin vest (sov2000 and 3000). They are superior to army issue in terms of flexibility, comfort, and protection.
The men and women fighting and dying in Iraq are being issued inferior armor, and this is the truth. The military is just trying to preserve its contracts and other beaureucratic/monetary establishments. Its good to see they invented the Modular Tactical vest to replace the Interceptor Vest, but none of these come close to Dragon Skin. It’s just the truth, and I can’t explain it further.
This is an outrage that every serviceman/citizen should know about. The sabotage of the testing years ago and the false reporting by the media is absolutely disgusting to the lowest pit of my imagination.
Harnu you don’t have any experience with armor so you have no valid points anyway.I however do and I know what is best for our servicemen.I had first hand experience with armor technologies and know that Intereceptor is here for at least ten years.
Fake william made some valid points. First of all, the only source of information any of you have whether the military fairly or unfairly tested Ds comes from the head company cheerleader. Which is the same source for all the marketing hype, including the BLUE TRAINING GRENADE used in the video. The lack of credible testing, and the misleading information, on armor weights, mis-representing the AK47 PS BALL round as level IV threat, using a blue training grenade to infer that the vest will stop a real handgrenade, etc, are many examples of “lying”. I rest my case.
Actually if I were smart enough to visit Pinnacle Armor website I would understand that they do not mistaken 7.62x39mm ball for a level IV bullet.I’m too ignorant to go to their ballistic chart because I’m so dumb to not understand the superiority of Ds.Actually I need people to waste their time on me to try and convince me that Ds is better than military issue, and then I ignore them by talking about Pinnacle lying.Actually if I headed over to their ballistic chart, I would see the level IV and IV+ threats listed.7.62X54mm at 2950 is not a level III threat.I’m just dumb.Lol.
Please people from now on, you all ignore me.I am just here to “detract” Dragon Skin and I am too weird to see the obvious truth.I do not know what I am talking about and I want to protect the beaurocracy and contracts so that our troops don’t get good armor.That way I will get paid more. Thank you.
That was yet another low-life imposter. I did not fool anybody on this forum. I am foolish for saying Americans are foolhardy. People are foolhardy. Being American does not make you immune to foolishness; we are all human. Some are misinformed while others are not.
Everyone knows that Dragon Skin is hands down better than anything the military currently has to offer.
Though I try to fool people, I fail miserably.
In fact, I am well aware of the sabotage that went on during the Army testing of Dragon Skin, and my aim here is to convince people that Dragon Skin is ineffective in order to preserve the contracts between the military and its armor suppliers.
By doing this, I will save many high ranking beaureucrats millions of dollars while our soldiers die wearing inferior armor.
I should scurry myself to Fresno California and witness a Dragon Skin vest under a test. Since I am so stupid that I cannot believe how many AK bullets have been stopped by a level III armor, I simply hide behind the fact that Pinnacle is bad at advertising their armor and that Pinnacle “lies about their performance”. These are utter lies themselves, and I am a liar.
William is not even real anymore because we sabbotaged him just like the asses that sabbotaged dragonskin.Keep up the good work and don’t respect pussies like “william” who no longer exists on this forum.
lol Todd/fake william you always type by putting your words right after a period like this:
William is fake.I am not fake
it should be like this
William is fake. I am not fake.
Listen all yall it’s a sabbotage!!!!!
Listen all yall it’s a sabbotage!!!!!
Listen all yall it’s a sabbotage!!!!!
So,So,So whatcha want bitch?You want a forum war William the fagboy shiteater?I don’t think you do cause you are out numbered and too gay to have a valid point anyway.If anyone does know William in real life he should kick him in the teeth for thinking he’s the voice for all of military.
William is not even real anymore because we sabotaged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don’t respect liars like “william”.
William is not even real anymore because we sabotaged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don’t respect liars like “william”.
William is not even real anymore because we sabotaged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don’t respect liars like “william”.
William is not even real anymore because we saboWilliam is not even real anymore because we sabotaged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don’t respect liars like “william”.taged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don’t respect liars like “william”.
I really like your low life sabotage tactics. You have not been able to refute the facts that I put forth questioning the merits of the claims made by Pinnacle or their tactics, so your only weapon is to make false posts using the same name as I do, and call me names. None of these simpleton tactics changes anything. You can yell all you want, but the facts and questions I have raised are still posted, and remain unanswered. So just keep up the name calling, it is befitting of the quality of the product you all love so much. I guess we should name this forum “Dragon Tales”, since it is either a fairy tale or a soap opera.
To those who read this blog and are active duty, reserve or vets, thank you for your service to our country. Roger Charles who is president of sftt.org explained it best why dragon skin is not fielded to our troops. Understand that exposure on Future Weapons and other television shows are huge steps in getting this armor to our troops in the field. Dragon Skin is clearly superior to anything out there and can simply absorb more kinetic energy than any other armor. I have a suspicion that the ballistic capabilties far exceed what anyone might expect. In the mean time, in order to get this armor out to the troops, the public must be made aware. Tell your friends, tell anybody that there is superior body armor out there and our troops are not getting it.
Thank you, finally there is another person who understands the true facts of the matter. I really get pissed off when these imposters spam in the hopes to argue my point (DS is the best), but in the process, makes us who believe in Dragon Skin look like fools. Well, we aren’t, and Dragon Skin is just clearly superior to anything the military gives its troops.
I have mentored many of my friends about Dragon Skin, ballistic standards, and the difference between the two different Draogn Skin vests. I’ve also explained (in insane detail) why it is superior to the stuff our troops get today. People know, but we’re not telling the right people. We should be phoning those damn news organizations and newspaper writers again.
William, since you do not trust us “simpletons”, why not move your ass for once and e-mail the officials at Pinnacle Armor. You can ask them anything you want, and if you’re still blind enough to not see the obvious, clear, and absolute truth, then I’m sorry but nobody here will spend any more of theier time and effort to try and convince you that Dragon Skin is simply the best. There are winners and losers in society, and those who have the most knowledge have the most success. Believe what you want; it doesn’t change the fact that Dragon Skin is the best. Shame on you, William.
The truth about Dragonskin is this. It is deffinately a great armor that should be researched and developed further by people who have a true care for our troops abroad. There should be steps taken to make Dragonskin’s SOV3000 as good as Pinnacle says even if it isn’t to the level of stopping the more powerfull of the rifle rounds (which I belieive it is). I remember a time when the research and development of armor didn’t just rely on the individual company alone. We’re America we should work with any company that possibly (deffinately in this case) has something great to bring to the table. You can see this type of ignorance in the HumV’s that should be better armored as well. It’s almost like our forces are expected to pull off the impossible, without the help of better equipment and in hellish like conditions. We as the citizens of the United States need to band together and get these advancements in our military as soon as possible for the good of our soldiers. Dragonskin is the only thing I’ve heard of in a long time that disperses energy like no other. It is also flexible and right there are two very undeniable reasons that no-one can or should avoid. Don’t despize Dragonskin because it’s controversial, rather embrace it and let it be known that it is the greatest thing for all soldiers who just want to do their duty without dying wearing an outdated protective vest. If we can get this vest to our men/women it will be one less thing to worry about and that goes a long way for every soldier.
Exactly Jay, William wants to hide from the truth because he knows he is wrong. You can certainly find out anything you would want to know about Dragonskin but he thinks he is all-knowing on everything and is basicly a truth avoider much like the anyone who would think that Dragonskin is not the future for this generation. Instead William would rather lie to himself because by now he must certainly see the benefit of Dragonskin but maybe he really is just brain dead.
no, I dont think William is brain dead. It’s too obvious to refute Dragon Skin’s superiority over current issue. I think William was dispatched to this forum to detract from Dragon Skin and to protect those contracts and jobs between the Army and those armor manufacturers. Spread the word, because this is seriously disgusting. Dragon skin is SO much better than the current issue. Ask any well-informed U.S. serviceman, and they will tell you that they would dump their current issue and take dragon skin any day, any where.
Its obvious to me that William will never accept the fact that DS is the best body armor. Whatever he says, its just to try and trick us. You can attack Dragon Skin, Pinnacle Armor, or us forum posters as much as you want, William. It doesn’t change the cold hard facts.
There is something in the United States known as the military-industrial complex which Pinnacle Armor is not a part of. This is the reason why current companies maintain their contracts with the Army producing armor that is inferior. For those who may not be familiar with what the military-industrial complex is, simply look it up.
With regards to the grenade being detonated Dragon Skin, this is more for entertainment purposes, some of you may have see in the pneumatic IED on “Test Lab”, again this is more for entertainment purposes. However, these demonstrations certainly do not take away from the capability of the Dragon Skin vests. Dragon skin is by the way NIJ level III certified. If I’m not mistaken level IV certification is in the process of taking place. I see no merit in debating the ballistic capabilties as the public has seen multiple times that Dragon skin is clearly superior to Interceport vests.
It is almost criminal that Dragon Skin has not been issued to our troops. A few individuals in the Army have been trying to cover up the truth with their lies. Don’t be suprised if there are criminal charges handed down somewhere down the line and some high ranking Army officers resign sometime in the future. The good news is that Dragon Skin is simply to good of a product to cover up, even if it is produced by a small, private company.
Pinnacle Armor is a company of integrity. Rarely in any business does any sort of company deliver a product as advertised. Dragon Skin is capable and delivered as adversited plus much more!
http://www.mtoa.org/swat_news.htm
this website has some interesting information on dragon skin and is a fairly recent article.
To William: since you are the “expert” why don’t you see that Dragonskin certainly has something usefull to work with. If you are really a patriotic person you too would see the need for better armor. And as far as opinions go that’s all you post so you are deffinately a hypocrit and you’re probably on the infamous Interceptor payroll. What’s the matter you can’t go to Pinnacle’s website for fear of being wrong? Where are your cold hard facts that Dragonskin isn’t an advancement, oh I get it you think the ARMY did a fair testing and that ARMY testers wouldn’t have suspicious motives. You are the one who has been dooped and everyone knows you have a miserable life. I suggest to everyone on this forum that they ignore this “William” fag because all he does is ask for info over and over again that has been on Pinnacle’s website for a long time he really is a true yankee, you tell him once he asks a thousand more times.
Ignore William because he has no knowledge of what Dragonskin is about.
Ignore William because he has no knowledge of what Dragonskin is about.
Random, I read this article and many more just like it. This is exactly what is wrong. There are so many inaccuracies that either the author is very ignorant, or intentionally is misleading about the facts. 1. M80 ball is “not”, and never has been a level IV threat, but the writer, David Crane clearly states that it is. 2. The writer gives many “claims” like reduced backface trauma, my question is “compared to what”? No where is there any trauma measurements given. The whole article is slanted with glowing comments, which appear to be just marketing, since there are no real facts, just claims. Also, David Crane is a well known Anti-establishment writer, who has no credibility. So anything he writes will certainly get questioned right out of the gate and must be verified. If you take anything this hack writes at face value, you will get burned. He has proven to provide many unfounded and delusional “facts” before, since the world appears differnt to him than the rest of us. Just because it is printed or on TV does not make it true.
Erica, I have been to Pinnacles website, and read their claims, you have to remember that they are a business. I have pointed out in previous posts some inaccuracies listed on their website. This is exactly my point. There is no way to verify anything they have said about the SOV3000. They even call it the MIL-STD SOV3000, trying to make you think it is military grade armor. OK which military has bought it? Please tell me which country on this entire planet is using Dragon Skin. Hell, please tell me which Police department has bought it??? Are the cops in on the conspiracy too?
Hey, David Crane created Friends and David Schwimmer (Gerald) was Capt. Zobel in Band of Brothers. So he knows somebody who was AIRBORNE and in WW2!
William you should really rethink what you write on this forum. I can’t count on my hands how many times you have went back on your word. I work for Pinnacle’s research and development department and I know for a fact that Dragonskin is the best vest in the world. If you don’t beleieve that the SOV 3000 will be America’s next tactical vest just wait. Our vests have already been certified for level 3 protection and soon you will see the SOV 3000 will be replacing Interceptor. The only drawback for Dragonskin’s vests is the price, which we even tried to work with the Army on that. However we have done a lot of research and are working to make the vests more affordable for soldiers. The publicity that this company has recieved is unrivaled by any other armor company and that is what makes us work harder to prove that our system is and will be the best. Have a nice day.
Well maybe you can start by providing some answers on AP projectile velocities, blunt trauma measurements, and areal densities of your level IV armor,instead of just continuing the mantra of “its the best just buy it”. Since you work in R&D then you certainly have access to the test data.
lol you guys stop trying to convince william hes nver gonna accept the obvious truth. this guy is hilarious! he makes me laugh! and also disgusting!
lol william you dont need that kind of data. if special forces troopers and other soldiers are buying it then it is obviously acceptable in terms of weight and protection. also it is flexible too!
More marketing, more marketing. How about some technical information. You wouldn’t buy a car without knowing what kind of gas mileage it gets, and what engine it has. You guys will do anything to avoid talking about the facts. More mumbo jumbo, super secret stuff, can’t talk about it.you guys are hilarious! Armor gets classified if it is very light weight, which Dragon Skin is not light weight. You boys need to unplug from the Matrix. Stay tuned to the next episode of “Dragon Tales”
Random, I went to Armorworks website. They list that their level IV plates stop 30 cal APM2 and M80 Ball. They do not say that M80 ball is a level IV threat. Quite the opposite from the marketing cheerleaders for DS have said. There still has not been any comment about the “Blue Training Grenade” used in the video “Stunt” for the discovery channel. Is the baldheaded ex-Navy Seal on Pinnacle’s Payroll? What I can’t figure out is that if Dragon Skin is classified and its’ capabilities are classified, why is it plastered all over the internet and on the discovery channel? Any GI knows what will happen to them if they divulge classified material or even violate OPSEC.
I just had a great idea. Why don’t you guys make one of your videos showing Dragon Skin being shot with Real AP bullets. You could also use a Real HE handgrenade for the next video. That way no one could argue that Dragon Skin works. If you make the video, don’t forget to use a chronograph to record bullet velocities.
Let me guess William you are from New York. It couldn’t be a coincidence that I happen to have been able to find out that you have a criminal record. So how much time did you get for molesting your nephew? I also found out from public record that you aren’t supposed to be using a computer. How’s that for justice. I’m an officer and I also manage this forum—not exactly smart to put your real e-mail address now is it?
Hi Albert, wrong on all accounts. I guess you guys just can’t stand the questions I ask, so you have to try and disparage my character at every opportunity. Well it won’t work.
LOL look at this kid william trying to sound smart and get our troops killed in weak armor. HE grenade? standard grenades are fragmentation, buddy!
haha you’re just gonna keep going on and on and on theres no stopping Willy the choo choo train
spreading lies, protecting contracts, endangering the lives of the troops. virtueless.
LOL dont you even start with that william. Any GI this, or any GI that. Any GI would take dragon skin over your proposed “modularity” equipment. any day, any way, any where! youi dont speak for the troops. dragon skin is the best armor plain and simple. find something better to do. you’re a bleeding salmon in a powerful stream. Heck, maybe a bear might even catch ya
Lowest bidder = winner for the Army contract.
Welcome to ARMY beuracracy. Notice that it starts with B just like Bull$#%&.
Sums it up that is why there is a massive troop reduction in the other 3 branches and once Iraq is over there will be even more troop reduction.
Pentagon.inc
LOL, the two most common US grenades are the M67 fragmentation and the MK3A2 HE concussion. These however are not the threat our guys face.
You should do some research since you obviously lack any military experience to know what type grenades are being used, their countries of origin, or their lethality. If you had served in combat you would have encountered these, or at least served in a combat arms unit you would have been trained to recognize them.
Maldus, when you bought your last car did you buy the Ferrari or the Chevy Tahoe? You can blame congress for the lack of funding, since they decide how much money is available, there is thing called a budget. The other thing is that all federal and military equipment is procured in accordance with a set of rules established by congress (the Federal Acquisition Rules) these were revised during the Jimmy Carter years and have created a vast majority of the problems in the system today. Remember Clinton’s peace dividend? I do and it is exactly why I got out of the military when I did. I joined under Carter, and the only way my unit could conduct training was to pass the hat so we could buy the MoGas for the ambulance so we could go to the range. Our trucks sat in the motorpool and we force marched everywhere. Jungle boots were known as LPCs (Leather Personnel Carriers). The culture for success in the contracting corps is set by the FAR and the available funds. You can say what you want about lowest bidders, but you should qualify it with the fact that someone in the government set the technical specifications, that they had to meet to be the technically correct, lowest bidder. By the way our military is still the best equipped in the world the last time I checked. If you badger congress to spend more money, don’t bitch when they want to raise our taxes to do so.
HAHAHAHAHA look at this fool william. They said that it was a fragmentation grenade, bud.
keep talking, i’m sure a lot of people believe you. you nut. you’re so gullable that you think that harnu guy was really some army guy with connections to contractors. no wonder why you believe such lies. Dragon Skin is the best.
I’VE SERVED IN TWO CONFLICTS AND CURRENTLY IN STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT I’VE SEEN THE TEST. IM IMPRESSED WITH THE RESULTS,IF THE MILITARY DOESN’T WANT TO ADAPT THE TECHNOLOGY AT LEAST LET THE TROOPS BUY THEM INSTEAD OF INACTING POLICY TO PREVENT IT
Eddie, I just invented a new handheld laser raygun, it is better than the M16/M4. I will have a video out soon, so you can see how good it is. They are only $4,995. I showed it to the government, so now it is classified. But you can still get one, even if the Army doesn’t want to buy them. If you buy two, I will give you a discount, and a free wall charger.
Response to Karl Masters’ (US Army) public statements regarding unfinished FAT testing
There has been a lot said about the latest test of Pinnacle Armor’s Dragon Skin body armor by the Army in official and unofficial statements. Now their story is we didn’t meet a sepcification.
We would like to let you in on the truth about the testing. The Dragon Skin body armor was supposed to be tested to the ESAPI (current level 4 system) test protocol and procedures as the Army agreed to, unfortunately less than one third of the thirty vests were tested. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A COMPLETED FIRST ARTICLE TEST.
During the period of 17-19 of May 2006, the Army’s Project Manager Soldier Equipment (PM SEQ) conducted First Article Testing of Pinnacle Armor’s Dragon Skin Full Torso Wrap coverage level 4 body armor system at HP White Labaratory as requested by Brigidier General Moran (he has since been forced to retire). After the first round was fired on the 17th the test director Karl Masters and technical liason James Zheng argued openly and loudly about the placement of the shot and what constituted an edge for flexible armor systems. At this point Karl Masters threw down his paperwork and stormed off as he told James Zheng “you represent the government you select the shots and you will be responsible”! Next Karl and James threw x-rays of our body armor at us and claimed that we didn’t know how to design a flexible armor system. When we asked how James Zhengcame to that conclusion James said “look at the spacing of the dics, they are not evenly spaced”? We showed him that when he picked up the vest to place it on the x-ray table he he changed the spacing of of some of the rows of discs and this is what is supposed to happen in flexible systems! You could see the light come in over his head, no wonder they can’t seem to design anything better than what they have. Again, deviation from ESAPI test protocols and procedures took place by the selection of shot placements of APM2 rounds arround the cerramics in non-rifle defeating areas (where there was an adhesive anomoly. James Zheng attempted to induce failure with selective placement of shots at the center and edge of individually isolated discs on the system and the system did not fail. This set James Zheng off on a tirade saying “it’s not supposed to do that”and throwing his arms in the air and yelling. This does not sound like fair and unbiasedtesting to us.
The testing was stopped by the Army at 12:37 pm on the 19th, Karl Masters and James Zheng had just shot one of our medium sized vests with 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) with complete stops on all rounds with a backface trauma average of 22.5mm for this vest and 23mm for all vests tested, which is a 50% reduction in trauma over the current system. Imagine how many more lives could have been saved if the Dragon Skin body armor was available to our troops today. When was the last time the Army dared to shoot 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) into any Interceptor IBA with ESAPI plates? The reason Karl Masters, Col. John Norwood (being forced to retire early) and James Zheng gave for stopping the testing early on the 19th was as quoted by Karl Masters: “I’m completely baffled by this flexible technology and I’m not going to send another round down range until I can understand how a flexible system works”! This is the same group that falsely claimed to have paid Pinnacle Armor nearly a million dollars to develop our Dragon Skin system as Major General Sorenson said on CNN,31 March 2006!
All of the government agencies that use our Dragon Skin body armor have all tested the system and found it to be far superior to the current system. We are still looking forward to working with the Depatment of Defense to conduct fair and unbiased testing to prove that our Dragon Skin system is far superior to any other system.
Those are the cold hard facts William.
Response to Karl Masters’ (US Army) public statements regarding unfinished FAT testing
There has been a lot said about the latest test of Pinnacle Armor’s Dragon Skin body armor by the Army in official and unofficial statements. Now their story is we didn’t meet a sepcification.
We would like to let you in on the truth about the testing. The Dragon Skin body armor was supposed to be tested to the ESAPI (current level 4 system) test protocol and procedures as the Army agreed to, unfortunately less than one third of the thirty vests were tested. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A COMPLETED FIRST ARTICLE TEST.
During the period of 17-19 of May 2006, the Army’s Project Manager Soldier Equipment (PM SEQ) conducted First Article Testing of Pinnacle Armor’s Dragon Skin Full Torso Wrap coverage level 4 body armor system at HP White Labaratory as requested by Brigidier General Moran (he has since been forced to retire). After the first round was fired on the 17th the test director Karl Masters and technical liason James Zheng argued openly and loudly about the placement of the shot and what constituted an edge for flexible armor systems. At this point Karl Masters threw down his paperwork and stormed off as he told James Zheng “you represent the government you select the shots and you will be responsible”! Next Karl and James threw x-rays of our body armor at us and claimed that we didn’t know how to design a flexible armor system. When we asked how James Zhengcame to that conclusion James said “look at the spacing of the dics, they are not evenly spaced”? We showed him that when he picked up the vest to place it on the x-ray table he he changed the spacing of of some of the rows of discs and this is what is supposed to happen in flexible systems! You could see the light come in over his head, no wonder they can’t seem to design anything better than what they have. Again, deviation from ESAPI test protocols and procedures took place by the selection of shot placements of APM2 rounds arround the cerramics in non-rifle defeating areas (where there was an adhesive anomoly. James Zheng attempted to induce failure with selective placement of shots at the center and edge of individually isolated discs on the system and the system did not fail. This set James Zheng off on a tirade saying “it’s not supposed to do that”and throwing his arms in the air and yelling. This does not sound like fair and unbiasedtesting to us.
The testing was stopped by the Army at 12:37 pm on the 19th, Karl Masters and James Zheng had just shot one of our medium sized vests with 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) with complete stops on all rounds with a backface trauma average of 22.5mm for this vest and 23mm for all vests tested, which is a 50% reduction in trauma over the current system. Imagine how many more lives could have been saved if the Dragon Skin body armor was available to our troops today. When was the last time the Army dared to shoot 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) into any Interceptor IBA with ESAPI plates? The reason Karl Masters, Col. John Norwood (being forced to retire early) and James Zheng gave for stopping the testing early on the 19th was as quoted by Karl Masters: “I’m completely baffled by this flexible technology and I’m not going to send another round down range until I can understand how a flexible system works”! This is the same group that falsely claimed to have paid Pinnacle Armor nearly a million dollars to develop our Dragon Skin system as Major General Sorenson said on CNN,31 March 2006!
All of the government agencies that use our Dragon Skin body armor have all tested the system and found it to be far superior to the current system. We are still looking forward to working with the Depatment of Defense to conduct fair and unbiased testing to prove that our Dragon Skin system is far superior to any other system.
Those are the cold hard facts William.
Response to Karl Masters’ (US Army) public statements regarding unfinished FAT testing
There has been a lot said about the latest test of Pinnacle Armor’s Dragon Skin body armor by the Army in official and unofficial statements. Now their story is we didn’t meet a sepcification.
We would like to let you in on the truth about the testing. The Dragon Skin body armor was supposed to be tested to the ESAPI (current level 4 system) test protocol and procedures as the Army agreed to, unfortunately less than one third of the thirty vests were tested. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A COMPLETED FIRST ARTICLE TEST.
During the period of 17-19 of May 2006, the Army’s Project Manager Soldier Equipment (PM SEQ) conducted First Article Testing of Pinnacle Armor’s Dragon Skin Full Torso Wrap coverage level 4 body armor system at HP White Labaratory as requested by Brigidier General Moran (he has since been forced to retire). After the first round was fired on the 17th the test director Karl Masters and technical liason James Zheng argued openly and loudly about the placement of the shot and what constituted an edge for flexible armor systems. At this point Karl Masters threw down his paperwork and stormed off as he told James Zheng “you represent the government you select the shots and you will be responsible”! Next Karl and James threw x-rays of our body armor at us and claimed that we didn’t know how to design a flexible armor system. When we asked how James Zhengcame to that conclusion James said “look at the spacing of the dics, they are not evenly spaced”? We showed him that when he picked up the vest to place it on the x-ray table he he changed the spacing of of some of the rows of discs and this is what is supposed to happen in flexible systems! You could see the light come in over his head, no wonder they can’t seem to design anything better than what they have. Again, deviation from ESAPI test protocols and procedures took place by the selection of shot placements of APM2 rounds arround the cerramics in non-rifle defeating areas (where there was an adhesive anomoly. James Zheng attempted to induce failure with selective placement of shots at the center and edge of individually isolated discs on the system and the system did not fail. This set James Zheng off on a tirade saying “it’s not supposed to do that”and throwing his arms in the air and yelling. This does not sound like fair and unbiasedtesting to us.
The testing was stopped by the Army at 12:37 pm on the 19th, Karl Masters and James Zheng had just shot one of our medium sized vests with 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) with complete stops on all rounds with a backface trauma average of 22.5mm for this vest and 23mm for all vests tested, which is a 50% reduction in trauma over the current system. Imagine how many more lives could have been saved if the Dragon Skin body armor was available to our troops today. When was the last time the Army dared to shoot 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) into any Interceptor IBA with ESAPI plates? The reason Karl Masters, Col. John Norwood (being forced to retire early) and James Zheng gave for stopping the testing early on the 19th was as quoted by Karl Masters: “I’m completely baffled by this flexible technology and I’m not going to send another round down range until I can understand how a flexible system works”! This is the same group that falsely claimed to have paid Pinnacle Armor nearly a million dollars to develop our Dragon Skin system as Major General Sorenson said on CNN,31 March 2006!
All of the government agencies that use our Dragon Skin body armor have all tested the system and found it to be far superior to the current system. We are still looking forward to working with the Depatment of Defense to conduct fair and unbiased testing to prove that our Dragon Skin system is far superior to any other system.
Those are the cold hard facts William.
Nathan, this is just a repeat of already published information. How about answering the questions I already asked or make a new video showing DS defeating real AP bullets. Then I will shut up. You can thank all your cheerleaders, since I came asking simple questions and then got attacked, now I do not plan to go away until they are answered. Your R&D guy ran away from my questions, so what am I to think? He certainly has the information I asked for.
Just keep holding the “party” line there Nathan. If Dragon Skin stopped 12 rounds in Army testing, surely it will do it again for one your fancy videos.
Only a third of Dragonskin’s
thirty vests were tested so stop ignoring the facts William. If you expect us to answer your questions then don’t deny the fact that the FAT testing wasn’t done correctly. If you think that the Army is right in not finishing what they start then that is your problem. In doing this the Army has made a big mistake by not living up to their duty. They neither proved or disproved Dragonskin and that is the problem here. No-one can tell you what you want to hear because you choose to ignore the facts. Even if the vests they tested didn’t perform to their standards that still does not make for a complete test if you don’t follow through with proper procedure. I don’t beleive you understand what is at stake here and I’m not trying to make you a believer in Dragonskin however, if you think you know that Interceptor is the best armor system in the world then you should have to prove it. Where is Interceptor’s proof that they are better? How many rounds of APM2 can they withstand? How much trauma is there to the backface? How long has it been since Interceptor has been FAT tested? When will you start questioning your own knowledge of Dragonskin and start researching for yourself? If you don’t know the facts you won’t believe them anyway. What do you mean by our R&D guy ran away from you? Our R&D guy would not waste his time with you, and further our R&D guy only does R&D so you obviously beleieve you were talking to a real research and developer of Dragonskin. Just another example of how naieve you are. I do however work for Dragonskin and will be happy to answer any of your questions via e-mail.
One third of Dragonskin’s vests were tested and that is not a complete FAT test. If you think that Interceptor is the best armor in the world then where is the proof? And I don’t want it from you so find a website that proves that Interceptor is better than Dragonskin. You won’t find one that supports your views because none exist. You are very naieve to think that one of our R&Ds was talking to you and it is yet another example of your child like mind. I do however work for Pinnacle Armor and would be happy to answer any of your questions via e-mail.
Go to PinnacleArmor.com click on _contact us_.
e-mail:
(sales) (consulting services) (technical)
It looks like you’ve been had William. You have no more reasons to post questions because it is clear you can go to the source of your enquiries. Your opinion is all you have now and that ain’t much.
First you bash the videos and now you want more? Ya sound a little schizophrenic there William.
William once again you are wrong these so called highly respected people were forced to retire and that doesn’t happen because you were just following orders. Second of all you don’t know any of the parameters for FAT testing. We agreed in writing that all of the vests submited would be tested. And further the test has to be completed no matter what. Just like when you take a test in school such as the SAT, oh wait you failed the 5th grade so you wouldn’t understand. What the hell does that mean that you have to fail the 5th grade or you can’t go to the 6th grade? When a company submits a product under certain well stated guidelines for testing, you would expect the testing to be completed no matter what someone’s individual opinions are. Just face it there was a blatant disregard for the testing and this was proven on several accounts. The furiosity towards the armor was shocking it was as if there was a new sheriff in town and they wanted no part of it. They did all they could to make the system fail and it infuriated them when there was no success. The lack of knowledge of this armor is what made us at Pinnacle Armor laugh because as you even stated it has been arround in development for a while. It was very obvious to us and our CEO that Dragon Skin would not be allowed to prove itself against Interceptor in side by side testing, which I get the satisfaction of doing daily if I so desire. You don’t even work for an armor company so you haven’t got any experience in this matter. How can such “honorable” men work with armor for years and not have the slightest knowledge of what a flexible armor system is and most of all how it works? We have tried to be understanding of their actions but there is no reason except the fact that this armor was not invented by the military. It is clear to me a hard working man who actually assembles these vests, that if it had been invented by the Army it would have been the crowning acheievement for these men, and hell it’s a hard pill to swallow that there is something better that wasn’t developed by your own. It’s also pretty damning for these men to say that they contributed a million dollars to the development of Dragon Skin but then went on to unfairly test the armor. That is a million dollars that went straight to their pockets instead of something usefull for our troops. Just another instance where greed conquers advancements. There was nothing contributed to Dragon Skin by them except unfair testing. Don’t even get me started with your “oh how could I talk about such highly respected men that way b.s.” because they ain’t so highly respected anymore, heck they are retired by force. You don’t know anything about what it’s like to have a son in the Army who knows that his armor is not as good as what his own dad assembles. He is in a hellhole called Iraq right now and he joined before any of this b.s. happened with the testing. So if you want make claims that Dragon Skin is this or that then that is your right but if you think you are right then think again. My son’s whole platoon supports Dragon Skin and yet they have to wear armor that is only reliable enough to survive one shot and then the plates turns into basicly gravell in it’s pocket. There is a lot of things going wrong with this country right now and this is only one issue that I have to deal with on a daily basis. It is yet another instance where the right thing gets shoved aside for the cheaper more producer profitable product instead of the more noble resiliant armor that Dragon Skin is. Take for instance the vehicles in Iraq, where is the additional armor for them? Where is the respect for troops opinions as to what armor they would like to see fairly tested? And finaly where is your opinion greater than the real facts? Just because you would rather live with a blindfold over your eyes doesn’t make you or any single person the decider on what is better for American soldiers. That seems to be the problem, everyone thinks they know what is best for our soldiers and we should hope they are right but when something isn’t given the proper respect as to following proper proceedure there has to be a consequence.
The question still remains, can you make Dragon Skin work as well as the Interceptor at the same weight? If you cannot, then how can it be better. For every pound of weight you add to a soldiers load, that is one pound less ammunition, water, or other important equipment they can carry. There is a limit to the amount of weight a soldier can carry before they become combat ineffective. The politics of the whole armor debate is forcing our troops to wear more armor than they want. Your antics in shouting that Interceptor is inferior seriously errodes the confidence in their equipment. I hope you are happy with that accomplishment. Especially since even if the Army gave you a contract you could not provide enough armor to make a difference. Bragging rights do not count for much, and this is a very expensive way to feed your ego.
If you put this in perspective, the Army has a huge responsibility to provide equipment for more than 1.000,000,000 soldiers and marines. They have provided the best that current materials and production capabilities in the armor industry provides. Many decades of research and development by ballistic fiber manufacturers such as Dupont, Honeywell, DSM, Axel Noble etc. and aerospace ceramics manufacturers Ceradyne, and Cercom, millions of dollars in manufacturing facilities, thousands of workers, and “real” engineers and a little piss ant company that “bought” their technology, never participated in any military armor programs, never got NIJ certifications so they could sell to law enforcement is now saying that everyone but Pinnacle is corrupt/ incompetent? I wonder how Wall Street views these companies. You guys are morally bankrupt trading on fear and ignorance of young soldiers and their fearful parents. Now you expect to use uninformed congressmen to accomplish what the commercial market has denied you? This will be good, go ahead and spin this with your politician supporters, they will go down with the ship. I am sure they will appreciate your explanation how you guys have revolutionized the armor industry. Did you see the announcement where BAE Systems is buying Armor Holdings for $4.1 billion dollars? How come they haven’t beat a path to the Pinnacle altar and try to buy you guys? The certainly have the money, and then they could capture all the military’s business since they could own the “revolutionary” armor. You don’t have to explain, they must be part of the conspiracy also.
Hey Cody, I think that Allan Bain over at Evolution Armor.com is also saying that you were paid a million bucks to develop Dragon Skin. He also said that he sold the rights to the technology to you guys. Gee that kind of conflicts with Murray’s claims doesn’t it? You know Murray takes credit for inventing it. This begs the question, who is the liar? I am starting to see a pattern here. Let’s see we have reality, and then we have “Pinnacle” reality.
My son has made his opinion known and he does not want to get in trouble. He knows that if he were to get his whole platoon to go to congress and express their views on the cituation it would create a major rift between them and their superiors. The main issue is that you can’t betray your country by going against what they say, even if they are wrong. My son knows that any armor but what the Army provides (makes soldiers buy in some cases) will not be allowed. It is a travesty that my son can not use what he believes in. It is total b.s. and I guarantee you that he’ll have his day along with his fellow soldiers. As far as William goes, this is America it isn’t a communist nation, you should really be ashamed to not have any working knowledge of this armor but act like you are the god of our soldiers. I guarantee you if my son and his friends knew who or where you were they would beat the s out of you. I can’t beleive all the crap this nation goes through and it’s people like William that make it worse for real American men. You have the same smart ass attitude that Karl Masters and James Zheng have which I guarantee was and will forever be your downfall. You do nothing but post opinions (which mean less than shit to me)everyday so it’s clear to me you are no use in this world. I found out about this forum from a veteran friend who could not believe the know nothing knowledge of you William. He told me that you do nothing but ask people questions and then crap on the answers. So I ask you William what are you doing to get the troops better quality living in Iraq and abroad? What are you doing to get the word out that there is beter armor for our soldiers, better armor for the vehicles? I’ll answer that for you. Nothing not a godamn thing, yet you think you are on the right side of this issue, not having any experience testing these armors. This is a much larger issue than you could ever know, it isn’t just about Dragon Skin it’s about these men fighting in a war that most of the country (likely including you) does not support. I have written along with all of the Pinnacle Armor employees to our congress, our governor (who adamately supports Dragon Skin) as well. The support for this armor far exceeds the support for the men who unfairly tested it. Dragon Skin is currently making new vests (classified) That will be even more undeniable and indestructable than anything in the world. We at Pinnacle Armor will not be pushed asside by anyone this time. You can count on that William. The vests tested were too good for the men to believe, and they would rather use what they invented instead of something they can’t comprehend. Our vests are already the best and we are going beyond what any company can design. Prepare to be dumbfounded William cause you ain’t seen nothin yet.
Allan bain didn’t invent dragon skin. he has no patents for Dragon Skin. he just developed a concept. once again, you lean on the schematics and other superfluous facts to try and prove your false point william.
i have some suggestions for you
Get
A
Life!
dragon skin is the best. live with it.
nice timing Cody.
begone, William. Your questions are irrelevant and your comments do not change the facts. while the rest of us are on top of the mountain, you continue to whine and b**** at the bottom, telling us to help you out, and then s***ing on us. get lost
I guess you guys are the consumate marketers. Once again, you answer with more promises, more fluff, and more nasty comments. Not one credible reply. Intelligent people do not have to resort to this type of behavior. Again, you guys talk about “classified” armor, hush hush stuff, well most level IV armor is not classified, and unless the weight of your Level IV armor is lighter than the threshold set by government classification guidelines it is not classified. I am pretty sure that your 9 or 10 lbs per square foot areal density is not classified. I guess you are calling Mr. Bain a liar. Correct me if I am wrong.
Bain does not own patent to “Dragon Skin” flexible SOV armor.
Dragon Skin SOV-3000 armor can stop level IV bullets.
Dragon Skin is so much better than interceptor/MTV.
William is a fool.
Once again I must reiterate
find
something
better
to
do
$, you bring up a good point, maybe I should go look at all the other blogs and forums that talk about Dragon Skin. I have given you guys the opportunity to answer my questions here where there is a limited audience, I think I will broaden my horizons and engage people where there is more intelligent discussions going on. Who knows maybe I will find more people who cannot easily be convinced with flashy videos. By the way are you going to do one with the AP bullets or not?
The question has been asked, can Dragon Skin stop AP bullets. The answer to that is yes! It will also stop API rounds. (there has been testimonial of that on the internet from a contractor who was in Iraq) The API round will simply burn through the plates that are currently issued.
“Cody” said it best, prepare to be dumbfounded.
$, it looks you campout here as well, I guess you are my troll brother. You know I guess the definition of light weight needs to be rewritten, since you guys use a different one from the rest of us. I do not consider 47 lbs of body armor “light weight” does anyone else consider 47 lbs light weight?
$,your logic is faulty, if you are using high value people and experienced soldiers are buying it as your justification. Remember Zylon? Well in case you don’t I will refresh your memory. Zylon was the latest and greatest about 10 years ago, it cut vest weights in half compared to “old” kevlar, everyone rushed to buy it, including the same agencies you like to note. It flew right through NIJ testing. Well, NU and the body armor companies making Zylon vests tried to keep a lid on the initial problems that started popping up concerning Zylon vests, this included penetrations and dead police officers. Eventually a lawsuit was filed by one of the states against Second Chance. No one makes a Zylon vest anymore and Second Chance went bankrupt. The NIJ had to overhaul their testing system. There was a lack of information on Zylon, the same way there is a lack of information on Dragon Skin. So only an idiot would take at face value what a company says is reality. The claims must be verified.
William your facts are all wrong. If you want to find out for yourself instead of listening to us, then I suggest you e-mail pinnacle. Otherwise, keep shut.
Lets talk about the tests they were not only unfair they were blatantly staged to shoot down Dragon Skin. I guess you can not comprehend Dragon Skin’s abbilities, that’s ok you are just like the idiots who tested it. When there is something about to take your job awawy from you (as it has for the ones who faultedly tested it) you are going to act like it’s the worst. The problem is there is no verifyable truth to their statements about Dragon Skin and that is why you will never hear from them again. There is verifyable false statements made about Dragon Skin and that is yet another reason for the forced early retirement. You bring nothing to the table William and that is why you can’t get it through your head that the love of money is the root of all evil, including evil that exists within our own society such as James Zheng and Karl Masters who would openly sabotage the armor that kicks their armors ass bar none. So unless you can give anyone a reason for this behavior besides self-interest you have no valid arguement. Your fighting for lesser quality armor and if you would like to see a real life demonstration in which you can get an up close look at, visit us sometime. We don’t hide from our citizens, we actually want them to know the truth.
Lets talk about the tests they were not only unfair they were blatantly staged to shoot down Dragon Skin. I guess you can not comprehend Dragon Skin’s abbilities, that’s ok you are just like the idiots who tested it. When there is something about to take your job awawy from you (as it has for the ones who faultedly tested it) you are going to act like it’s the worst. The problem is there is no verifyable truth to their statements about Dragon Skin and that is why you will never hear from them again. There is verifyable false statements made about Dragon Skin and that is yet another reason for the forced early retirement. You bring nothing to the table William and that is why you can’t get it through your head that the love of money is the root of all evil, including evil that exists within our own society such as James Zheng and Karl Masters who would openly sabotage the armor that kicks their armors ass bar none. So unless you can give anyone a reason for this behavior besides self-interest you have no valid arguement. Your fighting for lesser quality armor and if you would like to see a real life demonstration in which you can get an up close look at, visit us sometime. We don’t hide from our citizens, we actually want them to know the truth.
Where did you hear that any of our vests were 47lbs.? You obviously aren’t a smart kid because the weight is clearly listed on PinnacleArmor.com wait let me guess you are gonna ask me the weight. You are more of a child than my 6 year old.
The only weight listed is for the standard configuration. Since I am such a slow person, please provide me with the weight of a fully configured dragon skin SOV-3000. After you provide me with these details, I will pretend that you didn’t tell me those measurements and switch the topic to something else that I can think of. My job is to make you guys go round and round in circles. I have no life, and I am jealous of you people because you have lives. Therefore I am trying to waste your time.
When I see my last post tomorrow morning, I will write a page of superflous information that has no relevancy to the effectiveness and superiority of Dragon Skin. I am trying to hide my shame.Sorry.
Cody, I find it kind of odd that you keep talking about this conspiracy to protect jobs and programs is the reason that they don’t want dragon skin. The gentlemen that you keep bashing at PEO Soldier are civil servants. There jobs do not hinge on which contractor is supplying armor to our troops. Either a contractor’s product meets the requirement and passes the tests or it doesn’t. There is no middle ground. They do have the resonsiblity to ensure that the armor works consistently,and meets the government specification for operation at all environmental conditions that the Army has to face. This means that equipment has to operate from freezing to high heat conditions, since the army does not have things like a summer M16 and winter M16, they have one weapon that has to operate over a wide range of conditions. It is the same for body armor. You guys were accusing the army of wanting to tamper with your armor before testing even began. Did you actually meet or know anyone at PEO Soldier before the test? I think you guys staged this whole thing as part of your plan to get publicity for Dragon Skin. You also know that Dragon Skin’s design does not meet the Interceptor criteria for weight. So your only avenue is to create a political situation. What questions did you get asked about Dragon Skin’s weight and backface signature when you presented your wares to U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg? You know, the meeting where they had all their Force Modernization representatives present from all the Special Forces Groups and other USASOC units, some of these men are officers, but most of them are NCOs and operators. Are you accusing all of them of conspiracy also, since they are charged with providing equipment to their guys, obviously by your definitions the Special Forces is stupid too and they are wearing inferior armor. A friend of mine was present at this meeting, he said, that they have seen Dragon Skin, and it does not do what they need, and it was too heavy. He also said that you guys did not satisfactorily answer their questions. I ask you, “who” is trying to be the self-appointed expert here? When the users don’t want your stuff, who are you to tell them otherwise?
Real great answer Cody. But do you really believe that the Army needed a sabotaged testing
to turn down Dragon Skin? I doubt that. The only versions that would make a difference as protection is concerned are non modular 34+lb SOV3000 vests with upper resp. protection and full torso wrap. Hardly a perfect choice.
Perhaps you should remember HK416. The Army said it is better than M4 variants but only some SF units get it because of costs, logistics and the fact that M4 also does its job.
But even if SOV3000 works perfectly now as Pinnacle says that doesn’t mean it is superior.
Its “superiority” is more a matter of taste than a fact. And as you want to replace current IBA system you’d also have e.g. Crye with really lightweight and comfortable vests as competitor. Do you also think that DS is worth the weight difference between their
and your product?
@David I miss your test videos on youtube!
Sorry guys. I should check the facts with pinnacle before posting them. Dragon Skin SOV-3000 does not weigh over 30 pounds. I should email pinnacle to find out for myself. Furthermore, I am wrong when I said that Dragon Skin offers less protection. Many men would have been saved in Iraq if they had been wearing Dragon Skin. But since I am an idiot, saving lives does not count as better protection. Better protection for me is the armor that saves us more money and protects our jobs and investments.
Anyone can see that Dragon Skin SOV-3000 covers more of your torso from level IV threats. Yet, the army said that the armor failed to protect the test dummy from level IV rounds. Weight is not an issue, it is acceptable. In fact, the SOV-3000 doesn’t weigh close to 30 pounds. Maybe I should email pinnacle tonight!
lol why you guys bitchin so much william and Hans
dragon skin is better
get over it you little kids
write to your congressmen/governor already to get this to our troops
What the hell William you little snicker I bet youre employed by that failure of a company Evolution Armor systems to make pinnacle look bad. You’re probably the guy who created that site to protect the army and their thick beaurocracy. that site is joke why the hell was it created in 2006 when you claim that they had the design for scalar armor done in the early 90′s? what the **** william you shameful thing you clearly don’t want our troops to get what they desrve and people die because of words like yours. shame on you. your comments are blatantly, grossly, and inexcusably inappropiate.
SOV 3000 with full torso wrap and resp. protection weights more than 30lb. It was stated here by DS supporters, it is said by defensetech and it was information given by Pinnacle until March.
I also never said DS offers less protection. I think you are bit confused.
Doing posts with wrong information in my name doesn’t help your propose. Why don’t you argue in a proper way?
Hans, these guys cannot defend their position, so they have to resort to such tactics. They try to intimidate anyone who does not have stockholm syndrome and chant that Ds is the best. If DS was as good as they say it is, they would not hide from the questions asked, or resort to kindergarden name call, casting dispersion upon their critics. I will ask again, what is the areal density of level IV Dragon Skin? What is the Back Face Trauma? They didn’t answer these two questions for US Army Special Operations Command either. They like to leave out the fact that Dragon Skin was rejected by Special Forces as being too heavy, and they chose not to buy it. Now these guys want to force feed it to them. Special Forces has their own armor program independent from the big Army body armor program. What is your reason for Special Forces not buying dragon skin, is it another one of your conspiracy theories? Mr. Masters does not have anything to do with the Special Ops armor program. Who are you going to accuse next? Maybe they didn’t buy it because it sucks.
e, becareful or you’re gonna blow a gasket. No I don’t work for Evolutionarmor.com but it does appear that the non-compete that Mr. Bain had with Pinnacle has expired and he is re-entering the market place with a newer version of platelet amor. This is going to be interesting to watch as the original inventor goes up against the salesboy who bought the technology. You know the noted inventor and author in the ballistics field. I was just wondering what books has Mr. Neal written so I can go find a copy?
again, you continue to make pointless posts. the bottom line is, dragon skin would have saved hundreds of lives. it is just better than IBA. I can’t put it more simple than that. we need to get this to the troops. let bain and pinnacle square off when evolution armor gets up and running. the important thing is, the troops need this.
for those who refute Pinnacle Armor’s claims that Dragon Skin is is NIJ level III certified, please go to the link provided below. Dragon Skin will soon be level IV certified. This certification is absolutely irrefutable.
http://www.sftt.org/PDF/ComplianceLetterPinnacleArmorSOV20001-MIL3AF01levelIII.pdf
Hi Trey, no I am not going to argue with you. I in fact feel that we should look at all viable new technologies, and believe me, every company that makes materials,whether they are fabric, metal, ceramics or the new nano technologies works very hard at this everyday. They know if they make something new that they will be rewarded with business for their efforts. What gets me going is this bunch of hacks at pinnacle. They put up more bullshit than the nazis put up flak during wwII, and expect you to just believe what they are saying. Well, I have the military background and the technical background on this topic and all I see is smoke and mirrors. I especially do not like hypocrites who impune others and accuse them of greed when in fact these guys charge 3 or 4 times what any other armor system costs on the planet. Make no mistake, they are not doing this because they are altruistic, they are in this for the MONEY just like any other vendor. One of their shills said that the fake grenade stunt was done for “entertainment” well, I consider it false advertising and very misleading behavior about the capabilities of life saving equipment. The same way all their buddies wrote in the many magazine articles and web articles exclaiming that their SOV 2000 stopped multiple hits of Level IV threats when in fact it did not and does not, and nobody knows for sure if their sov 3000 works or not especially since they have not even made public one of their smoke and mirrors videos. You know, I was asked by some of my buddies still going in harms way to look at DS and give them my opinion. Well they have proved to me there is no tactic off limits for them to employ to sell their armor or to try and silence their critics and it sure helped make up my mind. I wouldn’t trust these guys with my life or yours. or any of our soldiers. If you want to know if they are lying, it won’t be hard to tell, their lips will be moving.
Pinnacle Dragon Skin armor is very impressive. If I’m not mistaken, it’s level III armor has stopped over 40 rounds from and AK-47 rifle, as well as 150 9mm rounds from an Mp5 submachine gun. This type of protection, coupled with the flexibility of the vest makes it truly remarkable.
Now, referring to the other vest. There have not been any videos showing it’s effectiveness, but it is capable of stopping all level IV threats at least once. Level IV testing for Dragon Skin SOV-3000 requires 6 shots rather than the traditional 1 shot test, and all of this added with the benefit of flexibility. I don’t see why you could say that the people at Pinnacle are “hacks”, or liars for that matter. Their ballistic chart guarantees that their level IV armor (sov-3000) can stop level IV rounds.
William, please refrain from criticizing the weight of Dragon Skin until you contact Pinnacle. IF you believe we don’t have the info you want, why do you continue to ask us and label us as “cheerleaders”, and “fanboys” of Pinnacle Armor. Co.? Contact Pinnacle at consulting@pinnaclearmor.com, or e-mail Mr. Neal himself if you find his actions dishonorable or not in the best interests of protecting our troops. I can tell you now that their armor stops level IV rounds. It doesn’t matter if a dentist tests it for them; a level IV bullet is a level IV bullet and all threats in their military-specification ballistic chart have been defeated by the SOV-3000.
Please, contact Pinnacle and find out some info for yourself. It will help get this discussion somewhere.
Trey, there is unfortuneantly nothing on the horizon when it comes to body armor ballistics. Ballistic performance is measured based upon mass efficiency. This means that an armor is weighed in pounds per square foot and then tested against a given threat. The ballistics used in the Army IBA has a mass efficiency 33% lighter than Dragon Skin armor, and that is assuming DS actually defeats level IV at the same velocities. I would agree that IBA ergonomics do not distribute weight well, and the cut and fit were originally designed as purely a frag vest that was adapted to become body armor. However, this has no bearing on the protection level of the ballistics. Pinnacle has claimed that DS is better than the IBA. Well, I am sorry but until DS is the same weight with the same or better performance it is not even equal to the IBA. This is the same reason they got shot down by the Special Ops guys, their only concern is weight reduction and they were very disappointed to find out that DS is much heavier than advertised. Who ever threw out the challenge about putting on a vest getting shot, well if you put on a DS vest, I will show up with some real AP and oblige you. I just hope your life insurance is paid up.
I don’t see what the big problem is in retesting Dragonskin is. If they proved it to be less than satisfactory then surely they could do it again. I don’t know if they are at a standstill or what but I would like to see some progress in the matter. I’m recovering at home and hope to get back in action soon. I just want to know the truth without all the war of words. I’m not here to argue and I’m not here claiming I know everything about Dragonskin or the IBA but I have worn the IBA and know that it does perform well. I certainly should not be alive because of the angle that the bullet hit me at was supposed to be a perfect kill shot for one dead insurgent. If he had raised the rifle a few inches higher he would certainly have shot me in the head. I can say that I owe my life to Interceptor and will be proud to wear it again after recovery. At the same time, I was near death due to bleeding into my lungs and I owe a debt of grattitude to the men and women that took great care of me. We should band together in the states and get our guys what they need over seas. If there is better armor for our vehicles that should certainly come first because the IED attacks are more deadly than any rifle. I just hope our troops get more of the better protected Hum-V’s because that’s where most of us are dying. This is an unconventional war and it’s very fleeting and taxing on our minds and bodies. This is the best military force ever so our country must get us what we need and in an A.S.A.P fashion.
Trey, I just saw in the paper that the Army is buying the MRAP vehicle in big numbers, go look. This was a small start up company in South Carolina. One of the big companies teamed up with them last year. They were doing pretty good on their own, but now have the resources to produce them.
It took this long to get better protection for the vehicles in Iraq? I wonder why it’s taking so long for them to realize that Dragonskin is needed. Come on if we’ve been at war for several years and they are just now addressing the vehicle issue then I can see why Dragonskin is being held off. Our country just doesn’t act like it’s on the same page as our military.
William you yourself admit that IBA weight is not well proportioned and yet one of your major arguements is weight. The Dragonskin system is weight distribution friendly so even if it does weigh more than IBA (31pounds) it has no bearing on comfort issues. So far your arguements aren’t holding up.
I believe Allan Bain is wrong for selling out. It is just another clear example of money over quality product. It’s easier to discredit something if you have sold the rights to it. As far as “his” new flexible armor system goes, I think it’s just another example of his incompetence towards other peoples money. If this had been my idea I know that I wouldn’t sell it to a salesman, yet again he no longer is the spearhead for flexible armor but he thinks he has influence over the situation. If another company does come out with a flexible system I guarantee you he won’t get the first crack at it. He will instead sell the idea rather than follow through with it.
William, when a report released said that 80 % of marines killed in Iraq in 2004 could have been saved if they were wearing better body armor (dragon skin), does that not register any significance to you?
Lives could have been saved. Hundreds.
Had those rounds hit a dragon skin vest and not an interceptor, the bullets would not have missed the ESAPI plate and would have been defeated.
Our boys could have been saved.
take pinancle for their word. their armor stops level IV rounds, is as light as it can be (if its too heavy for you, all is not lost. Dragon Skin weight distribution is excellent), is FLEXIBLE which is a huge key, and would have saved hundreds of lives.
Yeah Allan Bain has no credibility anymore. No-one would know who he was if he didn’t act like he knows a company that is making a “new” flexible armor system either. It’s pretty lame that he is acting like he can make a vest (that would certainly resemble Dragonskin) that isn’t pattented. He should just chalk up his mistakes as “financial gains” (as he already has) and move on.
e is right when I was hit it missed the plate armor and allthough it diidn’t penetrate the soft armor is did shatter my rib and caused it to puncture my lung. The issue with the less protected areas cannot be avoided, the bullet that hit me may not have penetrated but if you saw the vest you could see where the material was stretched so thin that it looked almost like black cellophane or a stretched trashbag. I have very strong bone density and I am also muscular in the area I was hit, so it’s not a matter of being weak in that area either. It’s a matter of the armor not having the potential to stop major trauma to it’s vulnerable regions.
Trey, based upon your description of the way your armor performed, you are a very lucky man. The round you were struck with is a very nasty round. There are only two companies on the planet that could make a ceramic plate that would defeat this round to my knowledge, in the weight factor that IBA is currently at. Dragon Skin ain’t one of them, and I don’t care what any of you say. If you open your pie holes and say it will, I throw down the gauntlet and say put it on and I will bring the ammo. 7.4 lbs per square foot. If it pushed the limits of your IBA ceramic plate the round is way beyond Level IV. You just hit the equivilent of winning the lottery, except you won the lottery of life, instead of the megaball. I would take the time to write a thank you letter to Ceradyne and the Army. The reality of armor is that we are at the limits of current materials, including the space age high technology materials. Sorry Pinnacle, but you use the exact same materials that everyone else does, so stop the marketing campaign. Stop the lies.
By the way everyone already knows about your big product release timed for the 20th of May, and your ambush of the army. I am taking the gloves off. You are about to find out why Special Forces is “Special”.
William stop making this stuff up. The man said the bullet missed his plate and hit his kevlar. It STRETCHED THE SOFT ARMOR, NOT THE PALTE! It didn’t push his plate armor to its limits at all. No wonder why you can’t seem to comprehend many of the things said here. You’re so gullable you actually believed those 10 year olds pretending to be ex-veterans like Harnu. Let me tell you something, I’m “harnu14″. No wonder why you believe such crap.
Stop saying that Dragon Skin isn’t level IV. It is. Every American is entitled to their opinion, but you should be more careful when it comes to facts. There’s only one set of facts, and it is that Dragon Skin can stop level IV bullets.
write a thank you to the army? had they issued him dragon skin, it wouldn’t have struck soft armor and he wouldn’t have suffered broken ribs and a collapsed lung! What the hell is up with this guy! He truly is “Special”.
What’s going to happen on the 20th of May?
Sorry about the double post guys, but this one is for William.
I am taking the gloves off. You are about to find out why Special Forces is “Special”.
Is this supposed to be a threat? Please it is hard to understand and is vague, could you explain more as to your intent and meaning behind this quote?
Hey William LOL=your faggety calling card. That’s right I’m takin the gloves off. You must be another “Bain dead” supporter. Eveyone on this Forum should check out the grudgingly accepted icon on the top of this forum and see it for yourself. This shady Allan Bain character that posts rediculous statements is hillarious.
Allan Bain? What a douchebag. How bout something orriginal William you sight Allan Bain as a credible character he’s a douche just like you.
Hey I did some research on Mr.bain and I was wrong about him I in no way support his ideals of taking Dragonskin’s designs and trying to pass them off as his own. It’s funny how you are quick to name call for one little flub up.
William, I must confess that I am gay, and one of your secret admirers. I was hoping you would contact me so we could get together. Luv Harnu14
William, I like to go visit pinnacle because the real men over there treat me real rough. Sometimes they let me be on top. You should try it, and then you will believe in Dragon Skin too!
Dragonskin will not back down William/allan-”no bains”. You are wrong and now your hiding.
William, me and Carlos are having a hide the salami party, can you come over? Carlos don’t forget to bring the whipped cream, loverboy!
Dang Dude, are all of you dragon skin guys gay?
William has fag conversations with himself. He has stuped to acting like his ex-boyfriend once again. Not surprizing. Dragonskin rules this forum William. You eat shit.
Thank you Erica for your un-intelligent addition to this discussion. I do not see what relavence it has to the discussion about the facts concering dragon skin, what it weighs, and Pinnacle’s use of fear tactics at marketing their product for a high profit. Maybe you would like to make an intelligent comment, since your last few have been devoid of any value.
So you admit that your gayness has nothing to do with Dragonskin? O.K William. We already knew that but, you seem to bring it up a lot.
Erica, I am still waiting on the list of publications that Mr. Neal has authored. Since seem to know so much can you tell me the title of just one book.
Here are a few titles William, Why William Is Always Wrong;the ever popular, If you See William Punch Him,and my personal favorite,If You See A Fag(William)Bash Him.
Can you quantify how dragon skin would have made a difference?
Thank you Erica, I guess I can find “those” titles in the Library. I was wondering which titles that Mr. Neal has written, or is that another one of the elusive facts that comes out of Pinnacle. How about a justification for the fake hand grenade used in the video. Dragon Skin cannot protect you from a hand grenade as shown in the video. More false advertising. How about a reality check on the marketing videos. Our soldiers face enough problems without thinking that there is something better than what they are issued.
William give up on these brainwashed people.
They can’t be swayed.
How many penetrations did the army testing make in the dragon skin vests? I heard they made 13 holes out of 40 shots and then terminated the tests. I would have terminated the testing also, since one hole is a failure. This is not acceptable. I guess the air force found out the hard way.
The Dragon Skin armor system should be examined more turoughly and that’s the only thing I have to say about the issue ever.
Straight up Frank. Test it more and release the results, is what I have to say. American soldiers
really deserve better if there is better. Regardless if a few guys don’t like it. They should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the armor isn’t up to par with military standards. This does not mean, “oh it weighs two or three pounds more” or “it’s too expensive” type of crap. I want to know for myself and my fellow grunts if we’re gettin’ the best there is. I don’t care what self proclaimed experts;William/Allan Bain think is best. I want to hear it from people who don’t have other interests in mind such as the Karl Masters/James Zheng debockle. If the armor wasn’t up to par then you should have encouraged improvements or upgrades instead of publicly dissing the armor.
William the Interceptor system is great fo now. You can’t however say that Dragon Skin faulted after 13 of 40 shots or whatever. There is no report to support that arguement. I don’t think you are getting info from a reliable source. I do know for a fact that the Interceptor will fail after 13 shots because I’ve seen my friend’s vests fail after two or three, and after that they were wounded sometimes serious and sometimes just severe bruising or intestinal rippage which ain’t pretty either. All I’m getting at is Dragon Skin needs to live up to their word or all this pro-hype/con-hype is nonsense anyway.
Trey, whats up man, I told you there was a-lot of douchebags with no military experience posting lies on these forums. My brother is about to be on leave and I told him you were rehabilitating at home until ya’ll get redeployed. I’ll call you here in a few. I think I lost your number so if you have Derricks hit me up.
I say we have an American discussion here Erica.I figured Derrick turned his phone service off but I guess he let you use it. Anyhow, yeah there are a lot of people claiming to know someone who heard this or heard that. The funny thing is they really believe what they hear instead of what they have seen (which ain’t much) by the looks of it. There are a crap-load of unanswered questions about Dragon Skin and I hope they are answered before I’m redeployed with your brother.
Hey I was wondering if you still lived where you used to. Also you should read some of this hillarious garbage “William” posts it’s rediculous. He acts like he’s an expert and yet he’s always asking questions like a school boy.
Yeah I’m still holdin’ down the fort here. You wanna do something later?
I’m gonna hit you up on the number you called from
and we’ll go out later. But in the meantime it looks like all these fake people evacuated. Did you check out this Allan Bain guy? So rediculous, it’s like he’s begging for people to believe him or something. Dragon Skin isn’t your creation Mr.Bain. You have no credibility, that seems to make him run away.
That’s hillarious, you’d figure he’d have something to say that didn’t end with him begging for Murray to take him back.
Let’s dominate that other forum too. I’m gonna post there in a few.
Well Well Well a perfectly empty forum, William aren’t you gonna ask questions over and over again? Well here’s a question for you What branch of the military were you supposedly in? And further, what war did you fight in? because I got money that says you ain’t got no trigger time in any war. You are a liar you’re probably still in middleschool.
What’s the matter you can’t handle a real soldier’s questions? Oh that’s right you’re sittin’ in Allan Bain’s lap right now? Yup I thought so.
Trey,
When do you re-deploy?
What branch of the military are you in?
Do you know if the “ban” on Dragon Skin has been lifted? In other words, at this time are soldiers allowed to buy commercially avaliable armor?
Thank you for your service, I hope for your sake and the sake of others that Dragon Skin will be avaliable to you and others by the next time you re-deploy.
I redeploy later this year. And I can’t give specifics.
I’m a Staff Sgt. in the ARMY.
As far as I know the ban will be in effect for a long period of time. Possibly indefinately. The problem with soldiers buying their own armor is that we don’t allways have time to inspect that armor thuroughly enough. And the last thing we want is a soldier to die wearing armor we didn’t aprove. It’s a necessary ban though.
No thanks necessary patriot, it’s my job and I love it. I hope Dragonskin is the real deal too. I wish you the best in your future endeavors as well.
Attention Everyone!
I just saw an alert on the sftt website.
DON’T MISS NBC NIGHTLY NEWS TONIGHT!!!!
THEY ARE GOING TO DISCUSS THE BODY ARMOR CONTROVERSRY
visit http://www.sftt.org for specifics
tell everyone you know to make sure they watch this! I’m sure they will be talking about Dragon Skin!
Thank you Patriot I’ll be watching.
I hope there are more and more stories on national news about armor.
Soldiers For The Truth is helping with the story, which I was glad to see. I have done projects with them since I first joined the ARMY in 2004.
They get results because they will not back down from anyone and that is a great attribute for soldiers. The truth will rise as I like to say.
NBC NIGHTLY NEWS TONIGHT
CHECK OUT http://WWW.SFTT.ORG FOR MORE DETAILS OR ANYTHING SOLDIER RELATED
Sorry for the multiple posts patriot
I hope that General talking on NBC news tonight has his retirement plan together, becauese that exactly what he’s going to be forced to do, retire. He was lying though his teeth!
This quote is from Pinnacle’s website to address William’s question about weight:
“The SOV-3000
J, part of the reason for all the debate, is that some of us question the weights that Pinnacle lists on their website are not the weights of vests in the field. The SOV 2000 weighs more than what you just posted. The SOV 3000 is even heavier.
Disgusting.
“William”, Gen. Mark Brown, James Zheng, Karl MAsters, and other guilty parties should be tried for treason.
And wreckless endangerment, and profiteering, and failure to carry out their duty (to get the best protective vests to our troops), and for lying, and as a result of their actions, hundreds of troops died from wearing interceptor vest.
Cost is NO ISSUE at all. 1 million troops, timse 5000 per vest, times maybe 4000 per vest because of such a huge contract.
4 billion dollars ,5 billion at most. That’s small compared to what the moneymongers save by giving out boys outdated gear.
William, errr, Alan Bain, errrr, Karl Masters….You are a douche bag!
There is no way you can defend the Army Interceptor vest as the better vest, when the freaking designer of the Interceptor vest himself on network, national TV said Dragon Skin is a far superior vest.
Just FYI, NBC has enough footage to run at least a 9 part series on this stuff. It will be really hard for the ARMY to run, duck and hide for 9 weeks on this issue.
Face it William. Your father should have dumped his wad in the toilet instead of your mother, because as evident of your dads bad seed, you are a moron and the world has enough of those already!
Amen to that!
William I’m not even going to bother with a low-life, hollow, and irresponsible individual like you. You clearly don’t care about our troops, and they die because of idiots like you in the military who lack morals and testicular fortitude. You are the crap that I wipe from my ass hole every day. Have a nice day.
Trey D. you joined Army in 2004 and now you are staff sgt? Pretty much of career…
This is really a non-partisan issue. Its not about the liberals trying to stick it to the current administration, (by the way I am not too fond of liberals) In any case the administrations job is not to test and seek out better military equipment, that job belongs to certain individuals in the Army, and obviously a few individuals in the Army failed miserably. The main issue here is greed. Someone is trying to protect existing military contracts. I really think other armor companies are going to shitting their pants on sunday when this full report comes out. I too am skeptical of the media, but I have been following this issue for a while and NBC is revealing this controversy for what it really is.
The issue is cost and that is very disturbing. You would think they’d shell out whatever it took to get these vests but I still think we need a lot more than just vests. The MRAP vehicles are in high demand and low availability right now and I just wish the NBC special had been about that instead, since a vest won’t help much if an IED blows your whole damn vehicle up. I hope we get all we need soon but it don’t look promising so far. It’s easy to become Staff Sgt. if you are a college graduate and want a career in the military it’s easy to become whatever you want. I was also in the ROTC program before college so that was another jump start for me. Pretty much of career???????? No offense jon boy but are you possibly chinese or japanese? What the hell does pretty much of career…. mean?
I think jon boy is really William he just can’t argue anymore because the story has hit the mainstream media. And as a matter of fact it is because he wants to take the attention off his shity statements and try to question my military career instead of admitting that he has been wrong for so long. What a bitch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor
If you still believe that Dragon Skin is a fake. Check Wiki’s references.
That’s what I was thinking Big D. This would never have even been a story if it envovled veterans fighting for better armor for today’s soldiers. It’s horseshit, the same type of shit happened in Vietnam. The rifle situation was horrible and yet nobody gave a shit until politics came running to a fake rescue that took three or four years to phase out all of the older of the M-16′s. Thousands died when their rifles jammed in battle. This type of shit usually sorts it’s self out but there are usually mass casualties. The news organizations don’t care what our soldier’s want or need they just want the publicity of acting like it.
I too thought the ARMY and Marines would accept this armor. It turns out I was very wrong. Not only do they not want it they ignore public opinion such as our president has done so many times.
Oh this is going to be good!
Poor William, Alan Bain and Karl Masters are not going to be sleeping too good.
Just in case you might be interested, NBC has released the following dates for airing parts of this lengthy report:
NBC Schedule:
Thursday, May 17th: Evening News (Already aired)
Friday, May 18th: The Today Show (Already aired)
Sunday, May 20th: NBC Dateline
Monday, May 21st: The Today Show
Tuesday, May 22nd: Evening News
Also, for those that don’t know, there are two other videos up on the NBC NEWS website that didn’t air last night.
Sleep well William, errr Alan, errr, Karl, as all your lies are exposed right before your eyes. You guys have absolutely ZERO credibility!
It must feel pretty damn good, knowing your opinion, and credibility is worth less than the used toilet paper I flush down the shitter everday.
Yeeehaw!
This is far from over. The truth will come out. I hope that Pinnacle enjoys their 15 minutes of fame. They make commercial product which is unsuitable for the military environment. I am sure that once the real truth comes out about Dragon Skin’s shoddy construction, it will be recognized for the over hyped garbage that it really is. The supposed designer of the Interceptor is a liar. The Interceptor was and is an “Army” program, which the Marine Corps signed on to once production began. So how the hell does a Marine Colonel get on the design team? He is just another paid shill for Pinnacle, along with the other hired lackey Wayne Downing. Is Downing on Pinnacle’s board of Directors or what? If Dragon Skin is so good, how come SOCOM didn’t buy it when Downing was the Commander and 4 star general? Guess what? He didn’t buy for the troops because it was a piece of shit then too. Now he is paid to have the opinion he now has. What a whore.
William, are you saying that General Downing did not buy Dragon Skin when he was the Commander of Special Operations? I think you have brought up a good point. Lets see, he thinks it is the best armor, but he didn’t buy it when he was the commander? I smell a rat too.
Hey, you mean that Downing is calling out the Army and U.S. Socom? He is indicting both organizations and himself. This is going to be good. LOL
Hey Trey, I find it funny that everything about Dragon Skin is “Secret” but they claimed that the CIA tested and bought DS for their operatives. I am sure that they just revealed some confidential information about capabilities that is at least an OPSEC violation. I wonder how happy they are about that. Pinnacle is a bunch of money grubbers, that is the ONLY REASON they are doing all this $$$$$$$$$$. There are in fact several companies working on flexible armor, this research has been going on for years. Everytime you hear about things like liquid armor that is part of the government, university research, and industry efforts to perfect flexible armor. however they all have one common problem, the design requires overlapping joints which automatically make the armor HEAVIER by 20 to 40 percent. Liquid armor is a concept that does not require overlapping joints. So there are thousands of people working a real solution to the weight problem. No one has found it yet. Least of all Murray Neal the circus tent ring leader! He is marketing a myth. Using sensationalism, lies and deceit. This is a farce being perpertrated upon scared soldiers and their families by someone making a profit. The price of Dragon Skin by industry standards is rediculous and an outright ripoff. In the last 10 years no one with any credibility has bought Dragon Skin, no one WORLD WIDE, even the Israelis didn’t look at it more than once. So now all of a sudden the ARMY has a conspiracy to deny Dragon Skin. Well I don’t buy it, and neither does anyone with any experience in the ballistics field. Pinnacle is the laughing stock of the industry. They are taking advantage of ignorant and naive people and are selling the concept of better armor. Pinnacle has a long way to actually having an armor system that can meet military requirements. Murray Neal knows this and is trying to force the Army to pay to perfect his armor system, since they lack the experience and expertise to do so. He needs to hire the right staff and continue development, when and if they get it right, someone credible may take them seriously.
William is a retard. Once again he goes against the experts who would not say the armor was better if it was not. You are not and never will be an expert William. Oh wait you already are in another field of expertise, you eat all of the shit the government feeds you and beleive it. You suck the republican’s dicks you douchebag.
The Dragonskin is definately getting it’s deserved respect now. No more of this public bashing while the armor’s hands are tied behind it’s back. The military is going to accept that Dragonskin is better.
Oh this guy William…
“13 out of 48 shots were complete penetrations”.
Let me tell you somethign about that. Rounds were fired into the upper shoulder portion where the vest straps connecting the front and back portion are located. Those sections are not designed to stop rifle fire. It’s like me testing a game, intentionally making it crash, and then telling my friend “oh the game crashed and it sucks, don’t get it”
“nobody with credibility has bought Dragon Skin, no one WORLD WIDE,”
General’s bodyguard? CIA operatives in high-threat situations? Department of Energy Officials? 9 Generals in Afghanistan? Special Forces security detail? Right, and the people with credibility must be those moneymongers who have no soul.
“The price of Dragon Skin by industry standards is rediculous and an outright ripoff”
5000 for a vest that would have saved hundreds of lives? My life is worth more than 5000 dollars, William. I don’t know if yours is.
Amen
Dragonskin is better, significantly better. To have those words come from the designer of Interceptor is all I needed to hear to know that I’ve been right all along. I know I want better armor and I will not be denied. Thanks Soldiers For The Truth. Without you the thoughts of soldiers everywhere wouldn’t be heard near enough. I can’t speak for any soldier but myself so all I have to say is that Dragonskin is better so let’s put it to use.
Man do I feel better now that I just took a big dump named William and flushed it.
Look everybody. It is obvious that William, has a lot to loose when Dragon Skin is the new body armor issued to the Military. William for all we know could be General Sorenson, Karl Masters, Alan Bain, or any number of Armor Holdings Board of Directors, who stand to loose their ass, once Congress stars hearings on this issue.
I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes, when Generals loose stars, when board of directors get fined, and go to jail.
So chances are, since William is crying till he is blue in the face about a bunch of bullshit lies, which are being unraveled before America’s eyes, he is some way apart of the “Interceptor” ring of liars.
Now, having served in the Marines, and now a SWAT SGT for a very large police department, which by the way has Dragon Skin as our issued armor, I can tell you that Dragon Skin runs circles around anything on the market.
Oh, man breakfast must have not set too well. I think it is time to go pinch another William off.
I hate to say this but my opinion has changed on dragonskin. I found the following info on the army times website at http://www.armytimes.com.
The vests were exposed to temperatures ranging from minus 60 degrees to 160 degrees fahrenheit, and were immersed in diesel fuel, oil and salt water for extended periods of time. After each of these exposures, testers shot the vests with armor-piercing ammunition, the most lethal small arms threat on the battlefield.
Four out of eight vests tested failed after suffering 13 first or second shot complete penetrations with 7.62x63mm. APM2 Armor Piercing ammunition, Masters said.
“The number we are looking for here is zero,” Masters said. “That’s what we are fielding to soldiers is plates that meet these requirements for zero penetrations. Everybody who has fielded body armor to soldiers must go through and pass this protocol.”
The dragonskin vests also “suffered catostrophic failure” during the Army’s extreme temperature tests, which caused the adhesive that holds the ceramics disks together to deteriorate, Masters said. The result was the disks slid to the lower portion of the panel, exposing the spine, vital organs and critical blood vessels to lesser ballistic threats, Masters said.
“We get the gap issue between plates, which is why we continue to look at these armors,” Masters said. “We are going to continue to try to evolve because our users are asking us for lighter and flexible armor.”
You can read the whole ARMY rebuttal to the NBC special at http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/05/Army_dragonskin_070528web/ or it’s a lot easier just to use their websites search thing just type in dragonskin at the top of the site and read the stuff that should be on the news instead of this one sided shit.
I did not make the following postings;May 18,2007 2:08 A.M.,May 18,2007 8:47 A.m.,May 18,2007 8:52 A.m, May 19,2007 1:37 A.m. I am however glad to see that the Army times website is singing the truth. Jared it seems like you and me are the only unbiased people on this forum. I would greatly appreciate that people not use my name while posting their views here any further. It’s bad enough that people are questioning the ARMY on their testing and I’ve never seen the Army give out this much info on testing before. This is the only forum I’ve posted on and I was surprized when I stumbled upon the other forums that have my name on them. I repeat, don’t put words in my mouth. Check out the armytimes article and you’ll see why Dragon Skin is faulty and will not be used because it is not as good as the armor we already have. I’m on the right side, the Army’s side, and that’s the bottom line.
Yeah, right. If I’m right, then it was ok for 80 percent of 401 troops in 2004 to die from AK 47 fire in the torso. I’m right alright, yep. Those troops were wearing the best armor possible. I am an idiot.
I am a loser. Wa Wa Wa
If only they had released the report earlier the publicity would not have been necessary. It does prove that the vest can’t be used and there are more than one reasons for that. Hard armor is the way to go for now and maybe there will be overwhelming advancements for flexible armor in the future. It’s funny that no one who is faced with the truth will use a real name. I can’t explain why they didn’t release this info before now but I do know it is not their obligation. Plus it would and will probably cut off Pinnacle as a reliable company. Thanks for the truth Trey at least someone is right for once.
dragon skin is better than iba.cry about it
Even a retard like me can see, Dragon Skin would’ve saved lives. There were a report in 2004 detailing that 80% of marines died from torso wounds would have been saved if their plate was bigger. And, if Dragon Skin was there, they would have been saved. Also, Dragon Skin is flexible. You guys are a lot worse than me. You don’t care about the fact that people have died in the interceptor vest because its outdated. Have a nice day douchebags.
I quote this
——————————
Oh this guy William…
“13 out of 48 shots were complete penetrations”.
Let me tell you somethign about that. Rounds were fired into the upper shoulder portion where the vest straps connecting the front and back portion are located. Those sections are not designed to stop rifle fire. It’s like me testing a game, intentionally making it crash, and then telling my friend “oh the game crashed and it sucks, don’t get it”
“nobody with credibility has bought Dragon Skin, no one WORLD WIDE,”
General’s bodyguard? CIA operatives in high-threat situations? Department of Energy Officials? 9 Generals in Afghanistan? Special Forces security detail? Right, and the people with credibility must be those moneymongers who have no soul.
“The price of Dragon Skin by industry standards is rediculous and an outright ripoff”
5000 for a vest that would have saved hundreds of lives? My life is worth more than 5000 dollars, William. I don’t know if yours is. (Edit by Retard: I also don’t think Trey D., Cory, and Jared’s lives are worth more than 5000)
—————————————
Amen Brutha!
To the Loaf I pinched earlier…Willaim
Our agency, has the LEVEL III NIJ CERTIFIED Rifle Defeating Body Armor.
Pinnacle Armor has a 15 million dollar per occurrance insurance policy if the vest fails.
Now, why would an insurnace company insure a company that makes an inferior product?
I have been a SWAT officer and now SWAT SGT since 1994. We have had Dragon Skin for the last year and a half.
At our range demo, we requested 5 of the top tactical vest vendors to show up.
At the shoot, all the vendors had specifc instructions in how they wanted their vest shot.
No two shots, within two inches, and no shots within three inches of the side of the ceramic plates.
When we asked Pinnacle how they wanted their vest shot, their reply was, “Do you tell a bad guy how to shoot you? Shot anyway you want to.”
Not only did our agency pick up thier LEVEL III Tactical Vests, but our agency picked up their patrol vests, in their LEVEL IIIA.
So you freaking douche bag, go blow your freaking hot air, up somebody else’s ass, and quit blowing your hot air in this forum.
Your lies, your fallacies, your half truths and partial stories are coming down around your ankles, like your pants do, when your cornhole buddy snuggles up to you at night.
Quote Donald Rumsfeld,
“As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want”
William, Cory, Jared, Trey D., and associates are unprofessional, unimportant, and unethical. Keep wasting your calories typing, because it will never change the truth.
Remember,
“As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want”
-The Donald
Hey Barnie Fife, did it ever occur to you that you are probably the only swat team in the country that uses level III instead of level IV protection? How about posting your department smart ass, or is this more of Pinnacles smoke and mirrors. You guys have to be the dumbest department in the country. Wait, let me guess, you are the team leader? Do the other guys get to decide whether they can wear another armor or do they “have” to wear what is issued?
OK Cop Boy,
Now, why would an insurnace company insure a company that makes an inferior product? Remember Zylon? Are you really a cop?
We have had Dragon Skin for the last year and a half. This means that you bought Dragon Skin NIJ Level III one year before they actually received their NIJ rating. I would say that you did not look at the NIJ database to ensure that you were buying a compliant armor. This means that “you” are liable for the lives of your fellow officers. This also means that Pinnacle sold you a vest marked as NIJ approved when in fact it was not. If they lied about that, you had better check to make sure they actually have an insurance policy. In the wake of the Second Chance armor company and Zylon failure liability insurance is astronomical, can Pinnacle actually afford it?
Has your butt tightened up yet there “slick”?
The Army’s 30 SOV 3000 DS vests were manufactured in May 06. With the bad glue. And they failed to maintain their ballistic integrity after 6 hours at high temp. BEFORE any rounds were shot at the vest in the high temp test it had already failed.
If you have a DS made before 19 May 2006, you have the bad glue.
Murray admits this in the Dragon Skin thread on Lightfighter Tactical Forums, where he calls the glue issue “an anomaly”. Right. Link:
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums?s=7336015661&ORIGINAL_REFERRER_URL=http%3
A%2F%2Flightfighter.net%2Feve%2Fforums
If you have an NIJ Certified Type III DS SOV 2000 manufactured before 20 Dec 06, the date of the NIJ Compliance Letter for DS Type III NIJ certification, then you have a fraudulently NIJ certified SOV 2000 Dragon Skin. This company’s demonstrated lack of business ethics makes it unlikely that DOD will ever want to do any business with this company.
Has anyone seen a recall on those Dragon Skin vests yet? What Pinnacle calls an anomoly, the courts I am sure will call a product defect. This means that all the vests that Pinnacle produced prior to changing the glue need to be recalled and replaced. You better get in line quick before the money runs out.
Hey, check out this link, it has pictures of the X-rays of the vests from the Army’s tests and it is posted on this forum. LOL
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003504.html
Now that the Army has been compelled to reveal sensitive information about the vests that our soldiers wear, let’s pray that there is no information that the terrorists can exploit to try an kill our troops. I hope Murry Neal and all of you anti-establishemnt writers are happy. If I had the ability I would have you arrested for treason.
To That Loaf I pinched again, William
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003504.html
I find it extremely odd that one shot from an AM2 round would decimate an entire scale or row of scales. These were obviously taken after the Army intentionally melted the adhesive to weaken the vest. No quesiton there, you idiots William and Trey. {Pinnacle now has a new adhesive, so get over it.
Please, everybody tune in today to NBC dateline evening show. You know that these morons will continue to whine and bitch about Dragon Skin’s failure (after being literally melted by the Army) even though Pinnacle has upgraded Dragon Skin with a tougher and badder adhesive material from 3M Inc.
On Dateline, they test Dragon Skin SOV-3000, level IV. There you go, William. You will witness those level IV rounds being defeated by Dragon Skin for once, and I am sure you will cook up another pointless and grossly out-of-context arguement which none of us will take seriously because you’re an idiot. Have a nice day.
TJ the point that escaped you about Zylon is that Zylon vests pasted NIJ testing, was insured by insurance companies and manufactured by all the leading armor companies, and still the vests failed after all the scrutiny that was deemed acceptable for the times. Now the NIJ has had to rewrite the playbook to try and help better insure that our men and women in blue get products that reflect the environmental conditions on the job. This did not happen before. The new protocols will include environmental testing and accelerated aging. I understand that the test will require heating and tumbling of the vest to 150-160 degrees.
Now that you have been told of the manufacturing defect, I would encourage you to inspect you vests for early failure. I have friend who has ten of the DS vests, and three of them have dislodged discs. Pinnacle knew about this defect a year ago and has not announced a recall. I would call them since you have 28 of them and you guys get called out on a regular basis.
I will overlook your insults.
Those damned IBA nutjobs! I didn’t expect those nuts who think IBA > Dragon Skin to be this bad!
Yeah Trey! That’s how to insult someone, and that’s also how to make yourself look like the idiot you are!
William why are you still here? You should really go somewhere else.
“Adieu, all’s vanity.
Argue with an idiot, and he will just bring you down to his level and beat you there.”
Don’t argue with William. If he doesn’t want to wear Dragon Skin, then he can bleed from a upper-chest or shoulderblade OR gut OR lower back OR obliques wound inflicted by some child wielding an AK-47.
William, don’t listen to the mental midgets, keep up the good work informing everyone about the fantasy they call Dragon Skin. I looked at the other thread with the xrays, you are right, this crap falls apart. The fake hand grenade was a fraud too! These guys are criminals. I hope the government goes after them. I can’t beleive how stupid some of these people can be after there is a logical explanation put forth to explain the test requirements and how much this stuff weighs. William is right!
Sean, now you try to come off as an intellectual? LOL! Ok since you want to use cliche’s try this one:
Caveat Emptor “Buyer beware” and “If it looks to good to be true, then it probably is not”
Ok, you guys are posting too closely. I believe that you are either friends, which in that case I don’t care, or you’re the same person, which I don’t care either. Both of you are wrong. The grenade was an m67 Fragmentation grenade. The vests are level III cert. and will be level IV soon. Tonight on Dateline NBC, you will witness the results of the side-by-side test conducted by MSNBC, showing the interceptor’s inferiority. Atop that, the chief designer of interceptor has admitted his armor is crap compared to Dragon Skin, as well as many servicemen and women. William you are living a lie and someone will have to shoot your bubble so you can come back to reality. In that case, I suggest you buy a Dragon Skin to protect your bubble. An IBA will fail your purpose miserably.
Sean, your so called IBA inventor/designer is a fraud. He is a Marine officer. Please explain how he became the chief designer for the “Army”? Just like your Doctor who tries to pawn himself off as having credibility in the trauma arena, when he is actually a friggin “Dentist”. There seems to be a trend here when it comes to anyone associated with Pinnacle, where there is the perception of legitimacy, but once you look beneath the surface you find out that it is as fake as your grenade. Your so called M67 Frag grenade is in fact an M69 Training Grenade, so you continue the lies. You guys are as un-American you can get, I hope the lord forgives you for your lies to our troops. I am flabbergasted that you guys will sell your souls for the almighty dollar.
If Dragon Skin has such superior performance, why can’t they make it lighter than Interceptor? Or at least the same weight? Because it can’t be done.
It covers like 30 percent more and weighs like .5 pound more for comparable sizes in the weight range of 30-32 pounds. http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9670&page=3 at the bottom of that page Karl Masters states in a post that he is the product manager for Interceptor body armor and that he is charged with testing dragon skin for the army.
ESAPI plates weigh 10.9lbs side-sapi plates weigh 7.1lbs and the vest weighs 8.4 pounds. You have two of each s-sapi and e-sapi plates for 36 pounds and then the vest makes it 44.4 pounds not counting throat and groin protection. According to this if you want the “full torso protection” wich is what that army asked to test http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=22 the dragon skin large weighs just under 41 pounds.
recheck your math. I think you doubled the weight of the hard armor.
No I don’t think I did since you have two sides and a front and a back. 10.9 (front) plus 10.9 (back) plus 7.1 (left side) plus 7.1 (right side) plus 8.4 (vest) 44.4
Unless the plates are 10.9 and 7.1 together, could be? 18 for the plates and 8.4 for the total of 26.4 and the medium dragon skin weighs 33. Then with coverage issues 3.4 sq ft for dragon skin and 2.25 square feet for interceptor mediums. But that is again full torso coverage dragon skin. There are other coverage options but who wants to go down in coverage?
The areal density for the hard armor is 7.4 lbs per square foot. A medium plate is .75 square feet, so it weighs 5.5 lbs each. That is 11 lbs. Each side plate is 2.46 lbs that makes 5 lbs. So you have 16 lbs of hard armor plus the weight of the soft armor.The SOV 2000 is heavier than the interceptor, the SOv 3000 is a lot heavier.
The enhanced sapi is heavier than that but if you compared for comparable coverages it doesn’t seem like it would be far off
The combined areal density for hard and soft armor is 7.4 + 1.1 lbs per square foot or 8.5 lbs, Dragon Skin is 10.9 lbs per square foot. That is 2.4 lbs per square foot heavier than interceptor. So how is some thing that is 20% heavier better? I say make the Dragon Skin areal density equal to Interceptor and then see which one is better. It can’t be done. This like saying my F350 diesel is better than your Toyota Tocoma, because I can carry more payload and tow a bigger boat. Ok, Make the Ford get the same gas mileage, and weigh the same. All of a sudden, there are no more bragging rights. Get the picture?
The SOV-3000
Can you show me how you got those numbers for the weight per protected area? If you take 24 pounds and divide by 2.25 square feet you get 10.666. Dragon skin weighing 33.15 pounds with 3.4 square feet of coverage is 9.75. our numbers are off of these by Neal towards the bottom there is a chart http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=22
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904/
Booya
Dragon Skin outperforms Interceptor by huge margins
quoting Pinnacle’s ficticious specifications off their website has gotten boring. Their armor weighs more per square foot than the interceptor does. Dragon Skin does not meet the weight specification set forth by the government for body armor. If you go order a new car in blue, and a yellow one shows up are you going to buy it? This is the number one problem with Dragon Skin. Pinnacle has had plenty of time to make a set of Dragon Skin that conforms to the weight specification for a set of body armor. They evidently cannot make Dragon Skin work at the same weight per square foot. Interceptor can certainly be more robust in performance if they increase the weight/thickness of the plates. Let me put it another way. You have a bikini in size 2, and you advertise for any girl who can fit in it can have it for free. Then this big fat chick keeps showing up claiming she can fit in it, but the test is not fair, because you want to see her actually put it on for the world to see. The see puts on a bigger one stands across the street and calls the local tv station and claims you don’t play fair.
The Backface Deformation is significantly less on Dragon Skin, Dragon Skin withstands a bullet that is above what the Army requires an E-SAPI plate to withstand.
Guys look into this deeply. Read the entire report. This just came out an hour ago after Dateline aired on NBC.
I do not know what all is included in total vest weights (collar,groin, arms) but I do know what the ballistic protection weighs since I have read the specifications.
Harry, All of this would be more credible if Dragon Skin is shown in public to actually meet the governments weight requirements. I am a millionaire would please cash a check for me. What? not going to take my word on it? If they are going to do a video why not show the darn thing on a scale too. They continue to dance around this issue.
William, take some time to go to NBC.com and go to dateline. they uploaded 2 clips from their show just a few hours ago. dragon skin exceeded interceptor by huge margins
There are backface deformation listed, as well as penetration or not, and other stats. The full test is available for viewing on nbc’s Dateline website.
looks like your time has run out
don’t worry the authorities have been contacted about these issues. The issues are being raised by people who actually bought Dragon Skin and will have standing in the courts. I do not since I do not own any DS.
William, today we clearly witnessed that Dragon Skin offers superior protection, flexibility, and maximal area coverage as opposed to Interceptor. Furthermore, the army laid off several experienced, but dragon skin-supporting people. They were not allowed to attend the tests.
The army claims that dragon skin could not withstand 1 or 2 weak bullets in this video. Then, the testers shoot dragon skin with 3 rounds that are much more powerful than what the army claims dragon skin fails to protect.
This is serious business. Clearly, the Army has lied time and time again, and you are in a state of denial. Dragon Skin is superior. Elite troops wear it, generals wear it,and the man who designed interceptor admits that dragon skin is superior. Also, an ex-4 star general says dragon skin is superior. These tests we saw today proves them correct, and you and the army wrong.
I have looked at dragon skin’s website for a year or more now and I don’t think it said NIJ certified till now. I think before it said something like it passed independant tests that were even more stringent than NIJ compliant. They have their own ballistic charts. They say level I II or III and then if if has passed an NIJ test it says NIJ I NIJ IIIa or whatever. I don’t think you are going to get very far with that law suit. It lists it as level III then you look at their pinnacle ballistic chart and see what that means. Their website says “see our ballistic charts to see what rifle threats it will defeat.” Claiming that it can defeat NIJ level threats also isn’t saying it is NIJ certified. But then they haven’t failed an NIJ test yet have they and there is only level IV to go.
1, it is a free country, you can believe whatever you wish about Dragon Skin. When you start believing the boob tube you are in serious trouble. I have provided plenty of questions that have to be answered. If you chose to ignore them then that is on you. If you do not verify everything about the product that this company puts out, with all the credibility problems then you are naive. If you believe that NBC really cares about the troops then you are sadly mistaken. If you want to believe in fairy tales be my guest. These types of tests are easily rigged to make the outcome whatever you wish. It comes down to one thing. Does dragon skin weigh the same or less per square foot than Interceptor? If not then the rest of it is irrelavent. Pinnacle claimed they were better than Interceptor. Now they have to prove it. Make Dragon skin at the same weight and then show us the performance. There is no other answer. You should be demanding that Pinnacle belly up to the bar an compare apples to apples. Weight for weight, otherwise they are liars.
You can’t always get what you want. I do not know the weight of their armor. However, it is light enough for elite forces to use it. The weight is acceptable, and the vest is supposedly good at distributing weight and FLEXIBLE. That is the KEY!
Now, I get your idea here but these companies have fact checkers and depend on their reputations. I guess in your eyes being broadcast on television makes former navy seals, former marine sargeants, and news journalists automatically liars? Fine I guess that is you showing your right to an opinion, but you haven’t answered my question about where you got weight information for these systems. I asked more than once “where did you come up with those number.” I told you where I got mine where did you get yours?
All of your bitching won’t change anything. Interceptor is our armor and it will be. You can whine all you want and I know you will. There are too many issues with it and Pinnacle should either address them or go home. The ARMY doesn’t even have to give a reason for not accepting Dragonskin. It’s very funny how kids (not even in military) think they know what’s best just because some fat bitch and a bunch of has beens say so. Gullable Americans. They didn’t show the round specifications so it didn’t even change my or anyone in the ARMY’s opinion. I bet these so called anomolies are very common for Pinnacle, it looks like they can make maybe one vest out of one thousand that is almost as good as Interceptor. Why don’t you join the ARMY if you’re are so interested in the matter, oh yeah that’s right that would make you all see the truth and we wouln’t want that now would we. Misinformed pussies, typical of this new anti-war generation.
My Son is on his way to Iraq and I wish he would be wearing Dragon Skin when he gets there. The testing I saw on NBC sure looked like Dragon Skin was superior.
The Army does have to answer to someone, the president is the commander and chief and congress still can subpoena officials for answers. The President and Congress are employees of the american people so they do answer to us.
Hey bros, I’ve been out of town since the 18th so it’s obvious to me William is trying to win a losing battle. This is the real Trey and from now on I’ll be switching up my posting name and putting the real facts out. Here are the test results from the testing done in Germany.
Conducted on Interceptor level IV vest with ESAPI Plates TEST 1a
1 round of (armor piercing ammunition)
Results:no penetration and BFS of 30mm.
Additional round (armor piercing ammunition)
Results:no pen. and BFS of32mm.
Additional round (armor piercing)
Results:no pen. and BFS of 47mm.
Additional round (armor piercing)
Results:COMPLETE PENETRATION
Test 1b
Conducted on Dragonskin Level IV test
1 round of (armor piercing amm.)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 23mm.
Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no penetration and BFS of 23mm.
Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no penn. and BFS of 27mm.
Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no pennetration and BFS of 24mm.
Additonal round (armor piercing)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 23mm.
Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 20mm.
See the rest of the results at NBC’s website.
To william, stop trying to use me for your point of view you punk. Dragonskin will be our armor soon and those are the facts. Why would I post something that cotradicts my previous statements William? I’m pro Dragonskin because it will save lives.
To whoever posts in my name (William). You have no one on your side and you’re not getting anything accomplished by posting in my name. Dragonskin is better and you can see the results at NBC’s website. Soldiers For The Truth is great and I told you before that they get results. And boy have they gotten the results this time. Thanks for the publicity of truth SFTT, if it were not for you the story would not have been viewed as much. I’d also like to take this time to punch William in the face repeatedly and take back my name on this forum. From now on I’ll be using different names since William wants to be a fag all the time.
We’re back William and you have no one on your side. NBC proved Dragonskin and there is no more arguements to be had you douchebag. Oh wait’ here is another fact you are a fagget piece of shit who sucks Allan Bains dick everyday. BITCH, don’t try to post in Trey’s name because he is a real man and you are a panzy power bottom. HAHAHAHA!!!!
That’s right. BITCH!!!!!!!!!!
Here is where I found the testing results:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904
Erica, I see a street corner in your future.
that was a lot of cruddy posts, lets just try to find out what the coverage and the weight of dragon skin really is. because if the “adhesive” problem is fixed and seriously this is america we can fix a glue problem and we know dragon skin can be scaled for whatever weight and coverage from 17 pound front and back to 40 pound full torso wrap around.
The numbers don’t lie idiots.
Man are you gullable. If you believe that crap you deserve Dragon Skin.
I do deserve Dragonskin cause it’s better and once again the numbers don’t lie idiot.
Go to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904/ and then kill yourself.
Staff Sgt. the new article (the Dragon skin show)might intress you. In PEO soldier brief there are test results and it is said that a Dragon Skin XL is Interceptor size L. The article itself supports that, because Christian wore DS himself and says the same. That means they are ugly overweight and add about 20lb. But I think you still deserve Dragon Skin lol! I suggest you wear it under your IBA!
Oh so you want to keep “fighting,” I am just saying that the numbers are out there you can find the truth if you look or maybe call. But it seems like some of you just want to flame each other. I was just pointing out we were having an interesting conversation then some flamers came on and started talking trash. Why doesn’t IBA come out once and for all and prove it is as good if not better. All they have to do is buy one vest from dragon skin and run it through the tests and put it on you tube. It would be the first evidence that iba is better. Because just passing the GAO test for “good enough” doesn’t mean it is the best or better than DS it just means that it meets or surpases some made up criteria. And maybe DS failed that criteria but maybe DS is still better that is the issue, if the adhesive is upgraded and the coverage level of DS is allowed to be similar to the coverage level of IBA then I think we have a real test. Because as it stands DS protects better and protects more area and then is talked badly about because it is heavier if you ask them to protect more by asking for the “full torso wrap” you are going to get a heavier kit. Let them bring a vest that is the same coverage as IBA and let’s see. 1000 vest tests would be better of course.
I just called pinnacle and the military sales rep told me that sov 3000 full torso wrap wich is 80 percent bigger per panel than a 10×12, front and back, weights 36 pounds and costs 6009 dollars. Now my math makes it 414 and M. Neal says that the Medium has 3.4 sqare feet of coverage and think 414 sq inches is like 2.9 square feet. He also said he had 500 emails and 3 other lines lit up. He didn’t have the exact coverage listed so I extrapolated and then also sighted what neal quoted during his rebuttle.
For the people who decide not to look at the independent results, shame on you. This is clearly a conflict of interest problem within the Army evaluation organization. Have anybody seen video or procedures of how the Army tested Dragon Skin?
These people will forfeit a few lives if their buddies can maintain their contracts. It’s happened before (Bradley, Trophy, Patriot), and it looks like it’ll happen again with Dragon Skin.
O.K I found the truth at http://www.sftt.org
The Army purchased three sizes of vests for the FAT testing: Medium, Large, and X-Large. For each size, the Army ordered the maximum full torso wrap, rifle defeating coverage configurations.The size Medium has A total of 3.40 square feet of rifle coverage and weighed in at 33.15 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 9.75 pounds per square foot. The size Large has a total of 4.05 square feet of rifle defeating coverage and weighed in at 40.96 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 10.48 pounds per squre foot.
The size X-large has a total of 4.40 squre feet of rifle defeating coverage and weighed in at 46.13 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 10.48 pounds per square foot.
The difference among the total weights for the three sizes of Dragon Skin is because the weights were based on the weight of the whole vest, not just the armor pannels without the carrier as the Army base their weight comparrisons on. The larger the vest the more carrier and webbing material that is used, adding to the weight of Interceptor but not to the ballistic protection.
The Army is comparing the size medium Interceptor OTV with two 10″x12″ inch plates and two 6″x7″ inch side plates, witha total square footage of 2.25 square feet of rifledefeating (ballistic) coverage,and a weight of 31.1 pounds (according to Army and Marine Corps Systems Command data).
The weight per area (with ballistic protection)
in this size/configuration Interceptor vest is 13.82 pounds per square foot. Therefore, comparing a size medium Dragonskin with a size medium Interceptor:
both vests medium size- DS Int.
Weight (pounds)……….. 33.15 33.10
Protected area (sq.ft.)… 3.40 2.25
Weight(lbs.)
per Protected area(sq.ft). 9.75 13.82
I noticed that type about the weight of the IBA, it is in fact does not effect the calculations. If you take 2.25 times 13.8 you get 31.1. Also as I said I called pinnacle and they told me a sov 3000 full front and back torso wrap weighs 36 pounds. 36 pounds divided by 3.4 sqaure feet of coverage is 10.5. IBA by your standards is 27 pounds divided by 2.25 sqft 12. Now by my calculations from the website dragon skin covers 2.9 square feet so 36/2.9 is 12.4. Now that isn’t huge differences but somewere in there MIGHT be the truth.
Nice try, but I never said it weighed less, I’m just proving that the coverage is better with Dragonskin. There is more armor on Dragonskin period, who cares if it weighs a few pounds more. I know I don’t, especialy if you get more protection.
To: William….Or Christain Lowe your real name?
From: TJ SWAT SGT, Former Marine Recon:
Real Name and Affiliation Exposure.
So William.
My contacts back in DC tell me your real name is Christian Lowe. Is that true?
They tell me you have been hired by the Army and in fact are a share holder in DHB or BAE, the company who just put in a bid to take over Armor Holdings.
My contacts are good.
If you are indeed Christain Lowe, which my guys have confirmed this, then your comments in this forum are worthless and meritless.
“Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.”
txzen your calculations are nice, but they hardly make any sense. They are not weight per area. They are a strange form of weight/ rifle protection ratio. You only count hard armor protection not soft armor as coverage is concerned and both as weight is concerned. That makes no sense. With your logic a Dragon skin with ESAPI sized inserts would also own a higher “weight per area”. Your calculations suggest that a plate carrier would be the perfect form of body armor.
You have to compare the hard armor inserts for equal coverage. The easiest way is to compare 10×12 to 10×12 inserts. You will notice that Dragon Skin panels are really heavier than any modern plate system.
Also your calculation do not decrease real weight of the vests. If you want larger coverage you still have to compare e.g. a L sized IBA to a XL sized SOV3000. You nearly have a 20lb difference. staff sgt. has no problem with that but I am pretty sure most soldiers will.
If you decrease coverage the Dragon Skin concept makes hardly any sense.
No actually the numbers are total weight for the system as worn divided by rifle coverage area. So the ratio is TOTAL weight over AREA OF COVERAGE. So webbing is counted kevlar pistol protection is counted. So basically it is a way to see how much rifle protection you get per pound carried. A single plate might have a more attractive number but we are using it to compare two systems that both include kevlar and webbing, so I think it’s fair. Just showing that if the ratio is low the more weight you carry means more protection area. So scaling it down effects weight more than coverage and vice versa.
sov 2000 10×12 plates are listed at 4.95 lbs on the dragon skin website
TJ, I work for a security company we have no affiliations to the companies you listed. You are so far off base it is funny. Are you doing your Barney Fife impersonation again? LOL
William…I am sorry, Christian Lowe.
Well my sources come from pretty high up the chain of command in DC and I have to believe that you do indeed have some share stock with DHB and or BAE and well I have seen the emails that came across my desk and until proven otherwise, you look and sound like Christian Lowe.
To clarify, I think DragonSkin is better and would like to use it. The coverage is better the weight is well distributed and it defeats more (API) rounds than Interceptor. The Interceptor is unflexible and uncomfortable even though it ways a little less it also can’t defeat as many (API) rounds and holdit’s integrity or even stop the bullets.
Look at this link about NBC tactics during their journalistic testing practices.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/LIE/nbc.html
txzen your calculation makes no sense. Soft armor that is not backing up hard armor has nothing to do with rifle protection. The kevlar around plates is not a “carrier”.It is designed to stop shrapnel etc. If you think you need no soft armor you can buy a plate carrier which is due to your logic extremly weight efficient as rifle protection is concerned. On the other hand a vest with attached groin protector and DAP would be extremly inefficient.
Your calculation makes no sense at all. It neither says that same coverage with plates is heavier nor it makes the SOV3000 lightweight. It is a math trick to make it appear lightweight.
If you want to see weight efficience of a hard armor system you have to compare the hard armor system alone because the different soft armor backings won’t really make a difference. (To be correct OTV is actually a bit inefficient because of overlapping)
Pinnacle is offering the weights of SOV2000 10*12 panels. It is 4,95lb. Modern multihit capable (I know most won’t take so many rounds but no plate has to stand up more than couple of hits) level III 10×12 plates weight between 3 and 4,5lb. Heavier plates are stand alone, ancient, made of steel or al. oxide.
Or SOV3000 10×12 panels are about 7,5lb. ESAPI’s weight is 5,45lb.
OR if you want to calculate different with soft armor: A medium IBA with an 80% increase of rifle protection to traditional 10×12 plates would weight (10,9x 0,8)+10,9 (ESAPI)+ 7,66 (OTV)=27,28lb. You said Neal told you an equal vest made of DS weights 36lb. So it is a lot heavier.
As rifle coverage is concerned Dragon Skin is heavier for every covered inch.
I understand that people want more coverage, but you have to carry the weight for additional coverage and increased weight of Dragon Skin.
If you want to increase your rifle protection get XS Esapi instead of your ESBI. As coverage is concerned it is nearly like full torso wrap.
I,m fighitng for more coverage and if it weighs more then so be it. We can train for the weight additions but we can’t train for the deaths that come from lesser coverage. I don’t care if it weighs ten pounds more that is something that we can strengthen soldiers for anyways. Trust me I’ve worn the Interceptor for prolonged periods of time, the vulnerable areas might protect from handguns or small-low-velocity shrapnel but Dragon Skin protects against rifle rounds and higher velocity shrapnel. You kids don’t seem to understand that this issue has to be addressed now before there are more casualties. I encourage anyone who is truly cocerned to write your state senators and try to get this issue to congress where it can be sorted out more thuroughly.
The issue of cost is the only problem with Dragon Skin. At a time where a lot of soldiers are buying their own Interceptors due to either a shortage or just late notice of deployment, it’s easy to see why we can’t get something that costs more but is worth the price. Hell they don’t even want to reimburse soldiers for buying the armor that is supposedley standard issue.
The ratios are just showing that per pound of vest how much coverage from rifle protection you get. I doesn’t say it is lightweight but it might prove something is more efficient. Also the 80 percent more than 10×12 coverage full torso wrap means that the vest covers something like 2.9 for smaller vests and my calculations to 4 or so square feet for x-large vests the iba has coverage of 2.25 so yes the vest does likely weigh more but it covers more. The military sales rep told me that the full torso wrap wich covers by my calculations 414 square inches weighs 36 pounds total where the 10×12 plate that covers 115 square inches weighs 4.95 lbs. So ratios not withstanding the vest tested by karl masters covers more than the IBA we can agree that is one reason it weighs more. Now I would like to know exactly how much a similar coverage DS weighs. I might try to work it out later. BUt I don’t know the kevlar weight of a ds so it might take another call to Pinnacle and they seem busy I feel bad bothering them with intent to purchase.
I would just like to correct what I said the pinnacle rep did not tell me that 10×12 weighs 4.95 I got that off the website and it is likely for sov2000 and not 3000 so it is just more questions.
I am not an expert on this issue but after watching the entire NBC report I strongly believe that the army should retest (comparison test) dragonskin again, preferably with some independent observers present. The army spokepersons were evasive, sticking to a very unconvincing script that did not explain any of the problems raised by the reporter. I hope that the army will relent and have fair, unbiased testing done soon, unburdened by conflict of interest – the men and women serving in the army deserve that!
My brother who is 19 is in Iraq right now. He has heard about this Dragonskin and so has his platoon. They know that it’s hard to get anything accomplished when you are fighting yourself. His commanders have talked to Gen. Patraeus and he has been fighting for everything that will help them achieve progress. Our armor needs to change and if you can’t see that then you are blind.
Hey punks Interceptor is the best.
That’s all I have to say.
You think IBA is the best? have you seen the trojan suit? http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1168470616997&call_pageid=1020420665036&col=1014656511815
If you were going to be the first man through the door of an insurgent hideout which would you like to be in? keep in mind you could probably wear IBA over the trojan suit. If they are used to carrying 100 pounds anyway then 75 pounds on a mission wouldn’t be so bad.
(this is just to lighten things up btw)
How do you like me now?
Do you hear that?…………….The silence is deafening!
What are you talking about William? Why no one wants to comment on Trojan full body armor with 97 percent coverage with ceramics that have stopped elephant gun rounds! I like that inventor I hope he gets an official test soon. I would like to know if he is a crack pot or an innovator.
Well I have read all the BS on here and laugh at some of the idiotic comments….Murray Neal never lied…if you looked at the website Pre December 2006 he stated it was in the process of being NIJ Level III certified and in his own words passed those criteria…and behold it did. I am a SSG on active duty, on my second tour in Iraq…And yes I am a trigger puller. I wore IBA my first tour because in 03/04 it was the best we had… NOW I wear a dragon skin SOV 2000.. comfort, coverage, and reliabilty are what this gives me…IBA’s approach to keep adding to a carrier that was crap was bad and is wrong. To have our troops using hard plate armor that I have seen fail with gaps in coverage is unexcuseable. I will forever be thankfull to my family for helping me purchase my Dragon Skin, I didnt buy into the Hype I bought the best, the tests show it, The Army I am sure will be changing over some day..probably after a congressional hearing…bueracrats, lobbyists, and certain persons in command should beware, the truth will come out. To say it failed 13 of 48 shots. Where were the shots placed… the shoulders are not ment to stop rifle rounds. We are only trying to protect vital organs and the torso. Even the IBA doesnt give protection here. Most soldiers that are shot from 7.62 x 39 are only hit once maybe twice if they are unlucky, so the possibility that a vest will take multiple rounds is unlikely, also soldiers that I have that wear IBA must replace a ESAPI after one hit, because we are told the plate is comprimised, I thought it could withstand many more than that…I will continue to violate the ban and hope congress acts quickly.
Exactly SSG Barret, I too wanted to wear DS instead of IBA but I couldn’t risk my career. I want to make sure that everyone knows that we are being short changed in military. It’s not practical for us to wear armor that has these weaknesses that insurgents and Al Qaeda operatives can exploit. We need to cut the snake of at the head and get our armor upgraded. We need more MRAP vehicles as well. I have already been wonded once wearing the Interceptor, I was given a Purple Heart and they offered me a desk job for the remainder of my service. I did not accept the desk job and will also be back in action soon. I am a Staff Sgt. and I train my soldiers to have inhuman-like endurance therefore, this type of shit can’t break their psychy but it is yet another subject that eats on them. I give them my word that what they are issued is the best but now I’m not so sure. I am also writing my state senators and I encourage you to do the same, certainly if we all write they’ll have to listen. This issue deserves congressional attention and if I have to I’ll write a million letters until my voice is heard. I always like to start my letters with: I am a Purple Heart recipient and I will be on an extended tour of duty soon. I would like to address an issue near and dear to my heart, I am very concerned that we are not getting the proper equipment in Iraq and Afghanistan. Mainly the issue of body armor haunts me at night, I would like for a full-unbiased test of Dragonskin’s armor. I know that there are many,many things that need to be addressed as well but at least this will be a good start…………..
I think the X-rays are a valid point. However the adhesive issue is very easy to fix. Let me ask you this have you ever been in minus 25 degree weather and then one second later been in 120 degree weather? Me neither.And I’m not sure if those are the right temperatures but you get the idea. I think the ARMY is willing to accept Dragon Skin if they address that one issue or at least I hope so. Gen. Brown has to tell it like it is. He knows that if DS fixes the adhesive issue that the Interceptor will not be competiton.
He also said if there is better armor we’ll buy it
after it’s live fire tested so I hope we can get this to some sort of resolution. If you’re reading this Pinnacle Armor, fix the addhesive so that drastic temperatures don’t effect it. If you aren’t reading this then I’ll e-mail you anyways.
I’m doing everything I can to make sure we have the best for the best.
O.K. I found the Trojan suit that’s made by the bear suit guy. It looks pretty kick-ass but it’s only a prototype. I wish I could buy it and use it but that ain’t gonna happen. Still though, I think he’s going in the right direction with the idea and it will probably be a reality in say, 2032 or something. Whoever buys that suit off e-bay is a lucky bastard because that shit is just cool.
I know how America can win the war. KILL’EM ALL LET GOD SORT’EM OUT. The truth hurts but losing hurts more.
Yes siree, and use Dragon Skin for armor and get more MRAP vehicles and give soldiers more benefits/money. That’s how to do it.
Hey dudes Dragonskin is my fav. You can see me in several movies including The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2, House Of 1000 Corpses, and The Devil’s Rejects just to name a few. I bought a Dragonskin vest to play arround with and I’ve shot it up and it’s still holding it’s integrity.
Lick the plate you dog dick.HA HA HA.
Hey..how about shooting it from an angle…I bet those beautiful round SA works great….not all shots come at you dead in front of you…
Stop the sales pitch we know better profiteers…
Actually from what I understand most armor works better at an angle including dragon skin. A flush 90 degree shot is the most devastating, and dragon skin uses to this it’s advantage as most shots will hit at an angle on one of the discs.
OK, so what if the National Institute of Justice may have certified a vest at Level III for civilian use. That is a lesser standard, no temperature requirements, no oil/fuel/sea water spills, no drop tests.
What does that have to do with the fact the the level IV tactical military product failed when subjected to military tests?
The only reason it failed is because they wanted it to. Have you ever heard of being in minus 25 degrees one minute and then one second later been in temperatures exceeding 120? Now I don’t know if those temps are right but they were probably even more extreme. So I don’t know what planet you live on CB but those conditions don’t exist on this planet or at least not in that rapid of a succesion. THEY WILL LOSE MONEY IF THEY GO WITH DRAGONSKIN AND THAT IS THE ONLY REASON THEY SABBOTAGED IT. JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF US SOLDIERS
BEING SHORT CHANGED FOR FINANCIAL REASONS.
ESAPI plates passed drop test! That’s why it is called ESAPI-test protocol.
I guess you never saw a SAPI, because there is nowhere the word fragile.
Next time army doesn’t print “handle with care” on any item because of bad publicity.
Temperature switch minus 25 to 120. Plane –> Iraq?
Interceptor’s designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D.
Every ESAPI lot passes the drop test. Does that mean you should punsh it with an baseball bat or drop it? No…Do you hit your MITCH with slegdehammer? Is it fragile because of that? Dragon Skin even failed the minimum drop test.
Plane –> Iraq ?
What can this mean? Perhaps: plane -25 degrees
Iraq 120 degrees?
Also temperatures in vehicles can easily come up to 160 degrees and your vest falls apart.
The “inventor” of Dragon Skin says that it is right now inferior to IBA.
I can’t understand what you want. Everybody wants better body armor. When Dragon Skin is improved and fullfits FAT (=minimum quality standarts for military use) and offers equal protection for equal weight you can argue for your points again. But I am sure that in this case it would be bought without your wise advice. Right now you seem to pimp a product that not even meets basic qualitiy standarts and is heavier than 1st generation RBA.
Dear Txzen,
Do you know how much it would weigh with the best ceramic armor in place to cover 97% of your body to protect against an “elephant gun”? probably a 100 Lbs. Or if he really used hi tech solutions using some of the emerging technologies and they really lived up to the performance increase, do you know how much each suit would cost, Not including the “bear repellant spray appartus” just take a guess and add two more zeros per unit.
That Bear repellant spray demonstration really sinched it for me, the lead in of being surrounded by 40 insurgents closing in, what are you going to do? I imagined his solution to be nerve gas grenades or some kind of mass delivery device emminating from his suit, and the soldier would be immuned because of the suit’s positive ventilation. THe actual demonstration was a big let down, and I would bet the rest of the suit is too, but hey I have been wrong before.
On a positive note, as far a prototype representation for this concept armor I thought that was real impressive, nice vision, excellent
prototyping skills.
Dear Joseph,
The temperature extremes are not about testing a siutation where “you would wear armor” and operate in -25 – +160 F extremes in a day to day operation; its about excelerated aging whereby the testers get a view as to how expansion and contraction of the product effects the armor. It is completely relevent, and accelerated age testing is used in just about all industries in this day and age.
I don’t think you should be calling others on this forum retards, it’s imflamitory, and unnecessary, and detracts from intelligent discussion.
No dave. I cant believe all the things you say. All wrong.
the inventor of INTERCEPTOr said his armor is worse, not the inventor of Dragon Skin.
and
Dragon Skin passes drop tests
its funny argueing with people like you. it’s like dealing with children. they keep saying the same thing over and over, and totally oblivious to the facts. LoL!
@ Allan
Your plan to shoot down Dragon Skin and advertise your own armor isn’t working on me. It may work on those like Dave who have no brain.
Interceptor’s designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D
You still don’t believe me? Watch MSNBC, Fatty. They worked hard to get the facts out in that report. Army bans Dragon Skin? Right, and their generals and elite troops still wear it…I’m beginning to see a pattern here…Then we witness Dragon Skin outperform Interceptor by huge margins on side by side test on NBC…Yep and Dragon Skin can’t stop bullets. Sure. Keep lying, I’m sure your stock portfolio is blossoming. Ever thought about what you’re going to do with all that money? Give it to the famlies of the troops you and your factless arguements screwed over by making them wear crappy armor.
Interceptor’s designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D
If only Marines had tested this armor, there wouldn’t have been a media circus surrounding it.
It’s rediculous for the Army to play into this controversy at all. If anyone (Allan Bain) has something in the works, you should stop pre-hyping your product and come to us Marines to have it tested when you think it’s ready. We could have worked with Dragonskin on their issues but they chose to take (what they thought) would be the easier route. That’s typical of anyone with armor designs, they pass up Marines for Army and now everyone can see the faults instead of the corrected problems that Marines can achieve. We don’t play games in the Marines, we don’t play he said-she said, we see if the product is up to our standards and if it is then it’s good for all military.
Who is this Allan Bain guy? I checked out his website and all I saw was copies of Dragonskin, what a hack. The only guy making any sense of this situation is Leatherneck.
DEVIL DOGS FOREVER!!!
SEMPER FI!!!!!!!!!!!!
Interceptor’s designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D
You still don’t believe me? Watch MSNBC, Fatty. They worked hard to get the facts out in that report. Army bans Dragon Skin? Right, and their generals and elite troops still wear it…I’m beginning to see a pattern here…Then we witness Dragon Skin outperform Interceptor by huge margins on side by side test on NBC…Yep and Dragon Skin can’t stop bullets. Sure. Keep lying, I’m sure your stock portfolio is blossoming. Ever thought about what you’re going to do with all that money? Give it to the famlies of the troops you and your factless arguements screwed over by making them wear crappy armor.
Interceptor’s designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D
You are wrong Dragonskin failed it all. You are the fag you punk ass bitch. Interceptor is the best and you all know it. Allan Bain is the only one who has something better than Interceptor. And the Marines aren’t good at testing anyways, all they do is yell at people and make people feel horrible for not being inhuman.
William down before you blow a gasket.
The designer of Interceptor admits his armor is inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :)
Also, while you Army folks enforce an “equal ban” on Dragon Skin, you let select elite troops and your generals wear it. It all adds up. Good thing I learned my 5th grade math.
Where is Allan Bain I called him last night and he didn’t answer. We were supposed to have gay sex. I swallow as well, in all holes.
IBA sucks
The leathernecks have spoken and have dominated these forums like everything else. Allan Bain and his fag buddy William have been ousted and rightfully so.
Holy crap dude! Dragon Skin stopped more bullets than the standard U.S. armor and had around 20mm of trauma every shot while the Interceptor had around 30-50mm, and also stopped three very powerful bullets. It was also flexible and covers more than 95% of your torso from those nasty rifle bullets, and it defeated a point blank detonation of an m67 fragger!
I am never joining the military unless I get to use this stuff. Period.
Try being in military and not being allowed to use the better armor Coke. It really sucks. I mean they had to bust out the other-worldly conditions to make it barely fail. That is bullshit.
I bet Mr.Bain will change his e-mail address after that great beating. But hopefully not cause it’s great to write a few paragraphs and then bash him about being a fag. Big ups to Devil Dog you kick ass.
you serve? please tell me you bought and wear dragon skin and not submit to the request of those rich old men. fight it with boldness and courage devil dog. hoo-ah!
hello?
goodbye!
On May 22, “staff sgt.” and “mike luchenbach” posted complaints about Interceptor (weight, rash, immobility). I’m a reporter who’s been reading this message board and would like to know more. Is there a way to reach you?
I am in the Army and with yet another upcoming deployment I welcome any body armor that is better than ours. As far as problems with either system, all I can say is nothing is perfect. One final note, I personally have ordered a set of dragon skin shoulder armor.
why is this argument still going when the youtube movies clearly show the creator of interceptor admitting that dragon skin was by far superior?
my god, i think i just won the entire arguement.
IM A SOLDIER WHO IS CURRENTLY SERVING A 3RD YR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND CAN FROM EXPERIENCE SAY THAT THE INTERCEPTOR RENDORS A SOLDIER TACTICALLY WEAKER BY ATLEAST 40% IN EVERY WAY, MY ARMOR WITH AMMO AND EQUIPMENT WEIGHS ABOUT 60LBS AND PREVENTS ME FROM MOVING FREELY, RENDERS COORDINATION, WEAKENS MARKSMANSHIP, EXITING AND ENTERING A GUNTRUCK, BECOMES OVERLLY EXAUSTING WHEN ON PATROL FOR ENDLESS HRS, AND CARRYING A WOUNDED COMRAD TO SAFETY CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE.. IF THE DRAGON SKIN CAN FIX THESE ISSUES, LIGHTENING THE LOAD, MORE FLEXIBILITY AND HELPING US MOVE TACTICALLY AND PROFICENTALLY AS WE SHOULD BE THEN THESE SENIOR LDRS NEED TO STOP WORRYING ABOUT MONEY AND START THINKING ABOUT SAVING OUR LIVES AND LET US USE IT… I WOULD BUY MY OUN IF I DIDNT THINK MY FAMILLY TO BE CHEATED ON MY LIFE INSURANCE45
Why in the hell would you be recomending this for insurgents? You dumb ass screw you and semper fi.
E4, Dragon Skin doesn’t solve any of your mentioned problems because it’s arkward heavier and failed several ballistic tests! Do a little research before you post
To Message in Blood (Army Ranger). 28 Pounds? You must be carrying only a couple magazines and an expensive knife or something. And I have a sneaking suspicion you forgot the plates. As for hindering marksmanship, the IBA does. It has nothing to do with the weight. It’s the fact that the bulk of the vest hinders a solid base for the buttstock of your weapon (I apologise for assuming, but I am guessing you carry an M-16, as you appear to be a non-combat arms “ranger”) As for critisizing others for poor spelling, check your post. The rule is “i” before “e”, except after “c”, or sounding like “a” in neighbor and weigh. Punk Bitch.
Why is this pointless and blatantly vulgar discussion still going on when the designer of Interceptor Body Armor is clearly shown admitting to the NBC crew that his armor is inferior to Dragon Skin?
My God, I think I’ve just won the entire arguement.
Good Night.
Why is this pointless discussion still going on when Phillip Coyle one of Dragon Skins main pushers clearly admitted to congress that
Interceptor saves lives. Dragonskin can’t even pass an FAT test which means there are critical issues wwith it. The issue of the disks coming unglued or unattached is the biggest problem I’ve seen. I bet if you tested DS in the field in Iraq it would fail catostrophicly. The day to day temperature swings, with being in excess of 125 degrees at times and then being in an air conditioned base or even slightly cooler than 80 degrees would cause the disks to eventually disattach and slump to the bottom of the vest. Until the issues are addressed there is nothing better than Interceptor. To anyone who thinks differently then the smell in the air arround you is chicken shit. And you are looking for reasons to get out of your duties to this country. Hey if I had a choice of not going to Iraq I wouldn’t but as a soldier you gotta do what you gotta do. I have been in two tours and have been through a lot but I know one thing is for certain my comrads and I weren’t worried about our equipment. All you can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst so to all you who are gonna be deployed, good luck and keep good faith because we all need it. I recommend these steps for daily inspiration. 1. Remember the fallen soldiers and fight in their honor 2. Tell yourself you are gonna make it. And beleive it. Because you will. 3. Don’t see it as a death sentence. Too many soldiers can get depressed in those conditions. If you have free time use it to socialize or play sports or guitar or whatever you are in to. 4. It’s always good to talk to your family back home. I didn’t always have a chance to do this, but when you can you’ll see that it makes a hell of a difference in your attitude and well being. 5. Finally when you get home don’t hesitate to get extensive counseling and also talk with your comrads about your experience because they are really the only ones that can understand those experiences.
You can argue over Dragon Skin if you like, but to say the the IBA is the premier system. . . well, not to my eyes. I suppose it depends, as ever, on the intended use. There’s also no question it’s gotten better in the latest iteration. It’s just a few years behind Paraclete and Eagle (and perhaps a few others) technology wise, which is not too shabby for government procurement. There is a darker truth here. You can only field so many products, so fast, for so much money. Drawing from a limited resource pool, the government has to judge whether enhanced equipment in other areas and training might not be a more cost effective life saving measure. It might not make you feel warm and fuzzy when you wear the stuff, but if “perfect” armor saves 100 lives a year and better equipment and training saves 150. . . where is the money better spent?
I am disrespectful sorry everybody for being so vulgar. I dont know that small children visit this site with their parents. I am ashamed of my behavior.
I’m not disrespectfull. I may be an aggravated soldier of America who hates wannabe soldiers but that’s my right. Dragonskin isn’t ready for use period. I’m not saying it never will be but for now we have Interceptor and that’s all that matters. Why aren’t these people that are championing Dragonskin also bringing up the issues of our armored vehicles. When I was first deployed to Iraq in 2004 our Hum-V’s were not protected at all. There were no doors on the one I drove and the protection was non-existant. It’s good to see that they are making upgrades to these vehicles. IED attacks are the biggest problem in Iraq and no vest on the planet or universe will protect you from them. I don’t care if you are wearing two Dragonskins and two Interceptors. Your legs arms and head will be decimated by a stacked IED. So to all you armor experts what is the answer for this problem? I know one thing, the answer deffinately isn’t nor will it ever be Dragonskin.
Exactly, if anyone really was concerned they would bring up the issue of armored vehicles. Because there is no vest that can protect you from an IED attack. I can recall a patrol in the summer of 2006 where we were providing convoy support and IED’s were the main threat for the road we were on. The vehicle in front of us was hit by an IED and then an ambush insued. There were three deaths and seven seriously injured. It was clear to me at that time that no amount of protection could stop an IED attack from criticly injuring soldiers. Therefore here in the states I have written congress and spoken with several high ranking officials about this issue. MRAP vehicles are now being largely produced and deployed to Iraq for soldier patrol as well as convoy support. I never heard of Dragonskin before and it doesn’t seem like it could help as much as new vehicles. But if it can I hope the Pinnacle company can weed out the problems and get them useable as soon as possible. Keep it real
and keep on truckin brothers.
Exactly, if anyone really was concerned they would bring up the issue of armored vehicles. Because there is no vest that can protect you from an IED attack. I can recall a patrol in the summer of 2006 where we were providing convoy support and IED’s were the main threat for the road we were on. The vehicle in front of us was hit by an IED and then an ambush insued. There were three deaths and seven seriously injured. It was clear to me at that time that no amount of protection could stop an IED attack from criticly injuring soldiers. Therefore here in the states I have written congress and spoken with several high ranking officials about this issue. MRAP vehicles are now being largely produced and deployed to Iraq for soldier patrol as well as convoy support. I never heard of Dragonskin before and it doesn’t seem like it could help as much as new vehicles. But if it can I hope the Pinnacle company can weed out the problems and get them useable as soon as possible. Keep it real
and keep on truckin brothers.
The MRAP vehicles are a major turning point in this war. It’s a major improvement over the armored Hum-V’s. Casualties will be substantially lower and hopefully they will produce enough for all soldiers to use thus elliminating IED casualties. I’m glad to see that things are starting to shape up in Iraq as far as equipment and I beleive the moralle will be raised with this addition. I’m not sure what to think of Dragonskin though. If there is an issue with it’s design you would think a sensible company would fix the problem or just go away. Interceptor is very reliable and from everything I’ve heard about Dragonskin it doesn’t seem reliable at all.
David you are a dumbass. They issue these weaopons because the soldier is able to carry more ammunition idiot. The M4 has a higher velocity round and is more accurate at longer ranges it also allows the soldier to carry more ammo at a lesser weight and size. As for the 9mm. the rounds are also smaller allowing more ammo to be carried at considerably lesser weight as well. The 9mm. can be fired repeatedly without a major kickback like that of the 45. Dragonskin can’t be issued until the problem of the disks disslodging is addressed. If you ask me it never will be issued because of the accusatory statemnts of Neal Murray. He has proven to be very unproffesional and does not want to fix the problem therefore he and his company are to blame and not the U.S. ARMY. David you are retarded and should stick to banging your sister instead of acting like a 60′s era activist on this forum trying to blame military for Pinnacle’s incompetent actions and manufacturing. Neal should hire some Americans to fix these problems because from what I’ve seen and heard they are mostly illegal immigrants who don’t care about America’s army.
What I cannot understand is… why does it have to be one or nothing. Why is dragon skin who’s role is clearly defined, being compared to IED resistant vehicles?
even if you are a pissed off soldier, I’m still not seeing the connect. I clearly see that dragon skin is superior. Should we not expect the best for our troops? What’s the argument here?
Wa Wa Wa. Hear me roar my profanity.
Dragonskin=useless
This forum is useless. Just Like Jay is.
I watched a 7.62 round pierce the soft portion of the body armor of a marine standing next to me on post in Iraq. We learned about dragon skin while we were there and and one of my teamates bought himself a dragonskin vest. at 15 yards he fired one round from his own AK into his vest near the kidney area of the front. Without the aid of inserts the round still did not penetrate. better coverage area than inserts and allot less weight. I’m not an armchair general i’m a grunt. I’m going back in less than a year and im bringing this armor with me.
again, take a look at SFTT.org, apparently ARL, in Maryland tested two DS vests about 3 weeks ago. These tests followed FAT protocol for a “high temp” test. The number of shot and placement of the shots for these vests actually exceeded ESAPI specification. It is probably also noteworthy to mention that every single round was defeated, and yes they did use 7.62 x63mm AP2 rounds. The Army is going to have a lot of explaining to do. See the following link for more specifics on this story:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=33
Lemme say something. I am a marine, stationed in Iraq, I am an 0311 rifleman. I hate the flaks we have now with a passion. Ive heard of the problems with the armor in the heat… I hope they would fix it soon. The flaks we wear, are heavy, they destroy your shoulders, eat your hips, bulky, you cant move in it, and god help you if you fall on your back… ever seen a turtle on its back…same thing… personally i wouldnt give two **** if we wore any body armor at all.
I’ve always thought, that if I, or someone was to come up with a product that was a substantial improvement over an existing system that was in widespread use. I figure there would be tremendous resistance from certain individuals and organizations that had deep financial interests as well as political and corporate connections that would go out of their way to protect their interests no matter what the costs.
This is the unfortunate reality of mankind that should be fully expected by anyone planning to launch a new and improved product that can step on the financial toes of big US defense contractors.
When I saw the DS system being demonstrated on TV I was extremely impressed and thought ,the guy that invented that is going to get a snout full of trouble. I do hope for the sake of the troops that he has skin as thick as a dragon’s. He’s going to need it.
Kaltes I absolutely AGREE with you. BUT, why the ban on soldiers buying it for themselves. It would be hard as hell to replace the armor for the Marines and ARMY single handedly but if every troop was allowed to purchase why shouldnt they. What i dont understand is the active ban on dragon skin Products.
It appears that dragon skin is the best possible protection in an environment devoid of Heat swings and Oil and Diesel immersion
http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf
This my friends, however, is not the desert. Id have to say that id trust Interceptor over SOV in the desert but in any normal urban environment devoid of extreme temperature shifts id go with Dragon skin. The truth appears to be simply this..
The armor is not suited for the desert, and it costs too much anyway. Its hard to replace damaged suits.
Pinnacle is working on a level Five armor but it most likely will suffer from the same problems. If dragon skin is to make it to the front line it would need to be desert, alpine, and snow worthy.
Id trust this jacket with my life if i was a swat team member but not in Iraq, not until the design kinks are worked out. Thats all.
ur all fuking gay with men and u like to lik ur dogs weiner and ballsak
Dragon skin failed because the Army’s tests because it can not be relied upon to protect from any level 3 threat if the armor is exposed to extreme temperatures or conditions. The fact is the armor will fail if it is transported or stored at common temperatures experienced by military equipment. If you are going to be using this armor for yourself in San Diego and will store it at room temperature in you house by all measures it is the best armor. But it is not fit for military use.
PS: Dirka Blaze, you are not only misinformed but you aren’t failing to look at the bigger picture as well.
Well in spite of all the pros an cons about Dragonskin the simple fact remains. Id rather my brothers wear a vest with kinks and flaws than wear no vest at all… And all this crap about our government sending our soldiers to die, yes they are and have bin doing so for hundreds of years, this blood is the price of our freedom and those who died knew this when they signed up for it so stop bitching about it like someone stole something from you. They knew the risk and paid the cost for our happiness through blood an sweat, and their death diserves a more honorable mention than some pety angry rant from someone who didnt get a fat enough check from Uncle Sam.
Bottom Line to all you Soldiers I am not allowed to say I am for or against Dragon Skin….”I CANNOT” I made my own…I tested it –It works fantastic and will be made Indestrutable soon…I can say -Chose what you think is better you feel more safer with…I will feel safer soon with MY new Armor…
LS Armor(Lorica Segmenta Armor)….That is what I will choose.
If I am not mistaken, the man that developed Interceptor, tested Dragon Skin,and called it “far superior” to his own vest. “If I am getting shot at, I want to be wearing Dragon Skin” is a near-direct quote.
There IS something crazy going on here! Why was DS dismissed, trashed, and banned by the military before it even tested it?