DefenseTech Military.com
  • Categories
  • Full Archives
  • Monthly Archives
  • About Defense Tech
Subscribe to RSS

About Defense Tech

Defense Tech exam­ines the inter­sec­tion of tech­nol­ogy and defense from every angle and pro­vides analy­sis on what’s ahead.

Tip Us Off

Tip for Defense Tech?

SEND IT!

It’s Confidential!

Categories

  • 'Canes
  • Afghan Update
  • Ammo and Munitions
  • Armor
  • Around the Globe
  • Av Week Extra
  • Axe in Iraq (and Elsewhere)
  • Bizarro
  • Blimps
  • Blog Bidness
  • Body Armor Blues
  • Bomb Squad
  • Brownshoes in Action
  • Bubbleheads, etc.
  • Cammo Green
  • Catch the "Buzz"
  • Chem-Bio
  • Civilian Apps
  • Cloak and Dagger
  • Commandos
  • Comms
  • Contingency Ops
  • Cops and Robbers
  • Cyber-warfare
  • Data Diving
  • Defense Tech Poll
  • Defense Tech Radio
  • Dissent Tech
  • Door Kickers
  • Drones
  • DT Administrivia
  • Eat DT's Dust
  • Extra! Extra!
  • Eye on China
  • Fast Movers
  • FCS Watch
  • Fire for Effect
  • FOS Files
  • Friday Funnies
  • Gadgets and Gear
  • Going Green
  • Grand Ole Osprey
  • Ground Vehicles
  • Guns
  • Homeland Security
  • In the Weeds with Eric
  • Info War
  • Iraq Diary
  • Jarhead Jazz
  • JSF Watch
  • Just War Theories
  • Lasers and Ray Guns
  • Less-lethal
  • Logistics
  • Los Alamos and Labs
  • M4 Monopoly
  • Medic!
  • Mercs
  • Missiles
  • Money Money Money
  • Most Wanted
  • MRAP Edge
  • Net-Centric
  • Nukes
  • Old Skool
  • Our Shrinking Planet
  • Planes, Copters, Blimps
  • Podcast
  • Politricks
  • Polmar's Perspective
  • Popular Mechanics
  • Rapid Fire
  • Raptor Watch
  • Red Team
  • Retro-Futuro
  • Robots
  • Roll Your Own
  • Sabra Tech
  • Ships and Subs
  • Snipertech
  • Soldier Systems
  • Space
  • Special Ops
  • Star Wars
  • Strategery
  • Stray Trons
  • Tactical Development
  • Terror Tech
  • The Deadlies
  • The Defense Biz
  • The Peoples' Site
  • The Sunday Paper
  • The Tanker Tango
  • The View from Av Week
  • Those Nutty Norks
  • Training and Sims
  • Trimble on the Case
  • Uncategorized
  • Video Lounge
  • War Update
  • Ward'z Wonderz
  • You can run…

Archives

  • November 2009
  • October 2009
  • September 2009
  • August 2009
  • July 2009
  • June 2009
  • May 2009
  • April 2009
  • March 2009
  • February 2009
  • January 2009
  • December 2008
  • November 2008
  • October 2008
  • September 2008
  • August 2008
  • July 2008
  • June 2008
  • May 2008
  • April 2008
  • March 2008
  • February 2008
  • January 2008
  • December 2007
  • November 2007
  • October 2007
  • September 2007
  • August 2007
  • July 2007
  • June 2007
  • May 2007
  • April 2007
  • March 2007
  • February 2007
  • January 2007
  • December 2006
  • November 2006
  • October 2006
  • September 2006
  • August 2006
  • July 2006
  • June 2006
  • May 2006
  • April 2006
  • March 2006
  • February 2006
  • January 2006
  • December 2005
  • November 2005
  • October 2005
  • September 2005
  • August 2005
  • July 2005
  • June 2005
  • May 2005
  • April 2005
  • March 2005
  • February 2005
  • January 2005
  • December 2004
  • November 2004
  • October 2004
  • September 2004
  • August 2004
  • July 2004
  • June 2004
  • May 2004
  • April 2004
  • March 2004
  • February 2004
  • January 2004
  • December 2003
  • November 2003
  • October 2003
  • September 2003
  • August 2003
  • July 2003
  • June 2003
  • May 2003
  • April 2003
  • March 2003
  • February 2003
  • January 2003

Home » Planes, Copters, Blimps » So Long, Key West

So Long, Key West

The Secretary of Defense, Mr. Donald Rumsfeld, dropped in at our FOB in Iraq on Saturday, and I got to ask him some ques­tions. On the sub­ject of the Key West Agreement — the one that splits the skies between the Army, Air Force, and Navy — Mr. Rumsfeld said that peo­ple in the Pentagon do not oper­ate under “anti­quated agree­ments.” So I guess that means the Key West Agreement is no longer in force. It’s open sea­son for Army Aviation!

One glar­ing gap in Army avi­a­tion is in the light attack role, cur­rently filled by the AH-​​64 Apache, designed in 1972. As avi­a­tion pro­grams now take decades to develop, we need to start look­ing at the follow-​​on Apache replacement.

ov-10.jpgApache ably ful­fills its pri­mary role, which is con­duct­ing anti-​​tank ambushes in the deep bat­tle against enemy armor for­ma­tions in approach march. However, it is doubt­ful if we will ever see a hos­tile enemy armor for­ma­tions in an approach march sit­u­a­tion in this cen­tury. The Army’s needs will be close air sup­port, armed recon­nais­sance, and heli­copter escort, which Apache does right now. However a fixed wing plat­form like the old OV-​​10 will be more effi­cient at these mis­sions most of the time. In gen­eral, heli­copters require more main­te­nance per fly­ing hour than fixed wing air­crafts. On an engine thrust basis and fuel con­sump­tion basis, prop-​​driven fixed wing air­crafts are more effi­cient than heli­copters in deliv­er­ing pay­loads. For a given pay­load, a fixed wing air­craft is cheaper than a heli­copter. With a stall speed of 55 mph, the OV-​​10 can take on the slower spec­trum of heli­copter mis­sions. What heli­copters give you is the abil­ity to VTOL, which is not a require­ment in the light attack mis­sion set. In fact, the only rea­son the Army went into the attack heli­copter game in the first place was because of the Key West Agreement.

An attack heli­copter can oper­ate from a very small for­ward arm­ing and refu­el­ing point to increase sor­tie rate, but the Army does not use small FARPs very often. In a fast-​​maturing the­ater like Iraq, the FARPs rapidly evolve into full-​​on Army Airfields, rival­ing the size of Third World air force bases. On the Army air­fields, there is plenty of space for the 400-​​meter run­way a light attack plane like OV-​​10 might need.

[Edited to add: My bad, FARPs don’t evolve into army air­fields. The avi­a­tion brigade assem­bly areas become army air­fields. However, the OV-​​10 can make the round trip to the air­field before an AH-​​64 comes back on sta­tion from a FARP.]
Army aviation’s expe­ri­ence in Iraq pro­vides evi­dence sup­port­ing a prop-​​driven fixed wing plat­form. Apache crews trained to fire their weapons from a hov­er­ing posi­tion, reflect­ing the anti-​​tank ambush sce­nario. However, in the 360 degree secu­rity envi­ron­ment in Iraq, a hov­er­ing heli­copter will quickly draw fire from hid­den insur­gents. Apache crews now use a shal­low dive when they deliver their muni­tions to min­i­mize expo­sure to ground fire. Since we’re not hov­er­ing to fire any­more, an OV-​​10 would do much bet­ter for our mis­sions here.

I am not advo­cat­ing the elim­i­na­tion of attack heli­copters. The ARH will be very use­ful, and it will fill the mis­sions where the light attack plane is not as opti­mal. And there are many sit­u­a­tions where a Ka-​​50 may out-​​perform an OV-​​10. For the follow-​​on plat­form for the Apache, though, we should opt for a prop-​​driven fixed wing air­craft.
–Jimmy Wu

Share |

December 13th, 2006 | Planes, Copters, Blimps | 234987 Comments »http://defensetech.org/2006/12/13/so-long-key-west/So+Long%2C+Key+West2006-12-13+16%3A36%3A17matthew_tompkins You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

« « The Sound of Rummy | Video: Shark Spies Steered by “Squid Juice” » »

This website uses IntenseDebate comments, but they are not currently loaded because either your browser doesn't support JavaScript, or they didn't load fast enough.

  1. Ken says:
    December 13, 2006 at 11:49 am

    With the Air Force get­ting out of the ‘fly­ing grunt’, elim­i­nat­ing a robust yet sim­ple sys­tem like the A-​​10, per­haps this is a good thing.
    It would be even bet­ter if those A-​​10 squadrons become Army squadrons. The exist­ing fixed-​​wing tank killer for close air support.

    Reply
  2. dave says:
    December 13, 2006 at 2:35 pm

    Been a long time com­ing…
    The A-​​10s have been around a long time, lots of cycles. Why not ask for a new ver­sion, w/​the avion­ics updates to make them mod­ern?
    Or… maybe Pierre Sprey could come back and design a new ver­sion? That would rock!
    wombat

    Reply
  3. Hawthorne says:
    December 13, 2006 at 2:39 pm

    Would a Close Air Support ver­sion of the V-​​22 fit the bill? Something with a chain­gun or a Bushmaster, FFAR’s or sim­i­lar, and a few Small Diameter Bombs or TOW’s. Kinda like a mini AC-​​130…
    It’d be eas­ier to deploy to for­ward areas than a Bronco or A-​​10 and could spend a longer time on-​​station than an Apache. Don’t know about it’s resis­tance to ground fire com­pared to an Apache, OV-​​10 or A-​​10.

    Reply
  4. Robot.Economist says:
    December 13, 2006 at 2:51 pm

    I’m a big fan of joint­ness, but the Army will have to step up with its own gear if the Air Force con­tin­ues to make com­bat air sup­port a low pri­or­ity in there pro­cure­ment plan­ning. The Key West Agreement’s slow death is fur­ther proof that the R&D and pro­cure­ment worlds remain rel­a­tively untouched by the ’87 Goldwater-​​Nichols Act.
    It would prob­a­bly be pretty cheap for the Army and Marines to field a big, slow-​​moving tur­bo­prop capa­ble of car­ry­ing a hefty pay­load. Most proven low-​​speed air­frame designs and prop engines have been refined for decades, so it wouldn’t take long to design either (espe­cially since nei­ther would be inter­ested in envelope-​​pushing stealth tech­nolo­gies).
    Heck, it prob­a­bly wouldn’t be hard to turn a com­bat air sup­port con­cept into a UAV — which would cut down on the aircraft’s over­all weight, free­ing up more pay­load capacity.

    Reply
  5. esmoore5 says:
    December 13, 2006 at 3:33 pm

    A prop-​​driven, fixed-​​wing light attack air­craft?
    Aren’t armed UAV’s, such as Predator B, already
    mov­ing into that role?

    Reply
  6. Byron Skinner says:
    December 14, 2006 at 1:07 am

    Good Evening Folks,
    Just to under­stand things, was not the OV-​​10 Bronco a Marine air­craft that was pri­marly used in Artillery sporing and ATC mis­sions. As a Light Attack, I think not. If I remem­ber it had a two man crew and wasused up and into Gulf War I where an OV-​​10 was shot down.
    The ques­tion of manned light attack in sup­port of ground troops, why?
    With armed (Hellfire)UAV’s for spot­ting and the occa­sional get lucky shot, why would ground ele­ments want to call in light attack strikes. The Air Force with it AC-​​130, F-15’s, F-16’s and A-10’s if any­thing are redun­dant for the ground sup­port mis­sion.
    ALLONS,
    Byron Skinner

    Reply
  7. Jimmy Wu says:
    December 14, 2006 at 3:53 am

    I advo­cated some­thing like the OV-​​10 because:
    UAVs’ sen­sor tech­nol­ogy still can­not match the Mk I mod 0 eye­ball in terms of periph­eral vision and change detec­tion, etc. When the sen­sors can exceed human vision, then I’ll take the UAV.
    A-​​10 is not opti­mal. It is a jet, which means it is too fast, too much main­te­nance, and burns too much gas. Its armor is nice, but we just don’t need some­thing that fast. Plus, the A-​​10 seats only one, whereas 2 sets of eye­balls are always bet­ter than 1. A-​​10 is in the heavy attack class, car­ry­ing up to 7.2 tons, whereas OV-​​10 and AH-​​64 are in the light attack class, of up to 3 tons.
    AH-​​64 also burns too much gas and too much main­te­nance, as I said.
    Byron, if we were to bring back the OV-​​10, we will increase its armor. However, the cheap­ness of the air­frame ($480k in 1970) means we can replace the air­craft even if it’s shot down. By com­par­i­son, AH-​​64D is now $56m+. Pilots wear­ing inter­cep­tor body armor will be safe in the cur­rent air defense envi­ron­ment. A low-​​flying air­craft like the OV-​​10 is not wor­ried about SAMs.
    And Byron, accord­ing to your argu­ment on light attack, why do we even have the AH-​​64? The Air Force can do it all, right? :) The Army always needs its own air corps because the Air Force is more wor­ried about air supe­ri­or­ity and bat­tle­field inter­dic­tion than it is on close air sup­port and artillery spotting.

    Reply
  8. DC Loser says:
    December 14, 2006 at 7:42 am

    Bring back the A-​​1 Skyraider. That plane could take a lot of pun­ish­ment, it’s low tech, had a big air cooled radial engine, can car­rry 10,000 pounds of ord­nance, and can fly slow and low. Perfect air­craft for COIN and CAS.

    Reply
  9. Ken says:
    December 14, 2006 at 12:23 pm

    Asking for the newer/​better is war­ranted of course but let’s for­mulize the org chart with cur­rent peo­ple (aka weapon plat­forms) before enhanc­ing the peo­ple (aka weapon plat­forms). No good in cre­at­ing a bet­ter plat­form is the Air Force is sim­ply going to say ‘this thing is cool, let’s keep it for our­selves’.
    The OV-​​10 would be mean refield­ing an older tech­nol­ogy, along with redefin­ing com­mand & con­trol, while the A-​​10 would mean redefin­ing the com­mand & con­trol only.

    Reply
  10. Byron Skinner says:
    December 14, 2006 at 1:55 pm

    Good Morning Jimmy,
    I agree with you on the price of air­craft and I have no doubts that if a Platoon get into trou­ble such as the 2nd. Plt., of C Troop 3/​7 Cav., 3ID did dur­ing the inva­sion phase of the Iraqi War there would be seri­ous thought about bring­ing $100Million+ Fighter Bombers below 10K Ft. to help them out. As with this Platoon they would have to fight their way out with what they had organic to their unit.
    The Apachie after the Fasco at the Karabala Gap by the 11th. Avn. Reg. put use of the AH-​​64 or any future AH’s as afor­ward strike air­craft in seri­ous doubt. The bad guys have ther num­ber.
    I believe that Army Doctrine is deve­olp­ing into the first 2k Meters of bat­tle space will belong to direct and indi­rect groung fire. Maybe the AH-64’s if Heavy Armor is involved, but they will engage from behind the American lines.
    After 2K Meters it will be the Job of the Air Force and Navy Carrier based air­craft to han­dle the prob­lems from 10K Ft. and above. Now way do I see the Pentagon will­ing expose $100Million plus value air­frames to RPG’s or pther shoul­der fired AAA weapons that will deve­l­ope.
    The FO, ATC, and Recon. task is already almost exclu­siv­ity the job of UCAV’s now.
    ALLONS,
    Byron Skinner

    Reply
  11. Timid observer says:
    December 14, 2006 at 2:31 pm

    What about tur­bo­prop train­ers (T-​​6B Texan II,PC-9).
    Smaller target,greater range and loi­ter­ing time,available now.Characteristics are almost ideal. Already used in Afrika by some pri­vate forces in the same role.Reported as far supe­rior then M24 Hind in this role.

    Reply
  12. rf gold says:
    August 2, 2008 at 3:40 am

    An acci­den­tal click, RF bril­liant fig­ures, ele­gant scenery was leap for­ward in my eye. RF rich con­tent let me full of bound­less curios­ity to her. And thus I began to search the RF infor­ma­tion include RF gold.

    Reply
  13. fiesta Gold says:
    August 13, 2008 at 12:46 am

    I think for you it is easy, do not have enough fiesta Gold, the game screen was clear and con­cise, in the game the mon­ster were very lovely

    Reply
  14. fiesta money says:
    August 13, 2008 at 12:47 am

    in the game if you have enough fiesta money, you can get the com­fort­able life

    Reply
  15. buy fiesta Gold says:
    August 13, 2008 at 12:49 am

    but we often have a same topic, that is how to buy fiesta Gold, every time we were very happy.

    Reply
  16. tiffany says:
    May 26, 2009 at 11:25 am

    I’m a big fan of joint­ness, but the Army will have to step up with its own gear if the Air Force con­tin­ues to make com­bat air sup­port a low pri­or­ity in there pro­cure­ment plan­ning. The Key West Agreement’s tiffany slow death is fur­ther proof that the R&D and pro­cure­ment worlds remain rel­a­tively untouched by the ’87 Goldwater-​​Nichols Act.

    Reply

Leave a Reply

Click here to cancel reply.

Spam Protection by WP-SpamFree

    Most Popular Posts
    • What Does this Handle Do?
    • Marines Quiet About Brutal New Weapon
    • Starship Troopers Meets G.I. Joe
    • Dowd's Bogus Grief Deficit
    • Semi-auto Grenade Thrower
    • Adapting Women to Subs
    • Fort Hood Rampage
    • Keep it Simple
    • Mystery Drone Revealed
    • REPLACEMENT ARM, GOOD AS NEW
    Recent Comments
    • Semi-auto Grenade Thrower
      For someone who trashes all the readers of the blog you sure do...
      a1189
    • Market for Acoustic Defense Systems Heats Up
      These devices vibrate tissue and bone not just...
      WJS
    • Semi-auto Grenade Thrower
      So are you saying the grenade launcher is a hoax or the M-16?...
      WJS
    • Fort Hood Rampage
      Dear Cannon Fodder; Only politically correct patriots should be accepted...
      Zandor
    • Dowd’s Bogus Grief Deficit
      LOL Still all this pissing an moaning about the editorial...
      Philo
    • Fort Hood Rampage
      I'd say go read some history on fascist ideology and then compare that...
      Philo
    • Fort Hood Rampage
      Islame isn't a race, genius……
      Philo
    • Semi-auto Grenade Thrower
      I sure as hell don't need to have someone take pictures of me...
      Zandor
    • Fort Hood Rampage
      "Now please tell me where in the Bible Jesus or his disciples...
      DualityOfMan
    • Fort Hood Rampage
      No, I am not a muslim. And no, the Koran does not say anything about...
      DualityOfMan
    Recent Articles
    • Semi-​​auto Grenade Thrower
    • Market for Acoustic Defense Systems Heats Up
    • Fort Hood Rampage
    • Keep it Simple
    • Airbag Defense
    • Dowd’s Bogus Grief Deficit
    • Did Someone Move the Furniture Around?
    • Lockheed Says Sbirs Still on Track For 2010
    • What Does this Handle Do?
    • Adapting Women to Subs
  • Channels: Military.com | Military Benefits | Military News | Off Duty | Join the Military | Military Education | Veteran Jobs | Military Money | Military Deals | Military Family | Military Community
  • Military.com Network: Military.com | MilBlogging | Defense Tech | DoD Buzz | SpouseBuzz | Fred's Place | GI Bill Express
  • Services: Army | Navy | Air Force | Marine Corps | Coast Guard | National Guard | Military Spouse
  • About Military.com About Us | Advertise With Us | Press | Affiliate Program | Monster Network | Help | Feedback | Privacy Policy | User Agreement | © 2009 Military Advantage