This is a new piece of Navy hardware: a modified satellite-guided bomb, releasing thousands of darts, each carrying a payload of a powerful chemical called DETA. It sounds fearsome, but it’s a new countermine technology for taking out mines in the surf zone which I describe in New Scientist here.
One of the interesting features is the .50-caliber Venom dart, which hits at relatively low velocity, but can still go through ten to twelve feet of water or two feet of stand and retain its effectiveness. The secret is in the blunt nose: its another one of those cavitating designs, a relative of the Russian Shkval and its Iranian cousin that caused so much stir last year. These form a bubble around themselves to reduce water friction, and as a result the Venom dart goes way deeper than a conventional design.
Perhaps more significant is how effective it is against sand making it a kind of miniature version of Lockheeds bunker-busting Cavity Penetrator I described in 2005. However, the big difference is that sand can act as a fluid, whereas hard rock which the Lockheed design is supposed to glide through at high speed — is another matter. My suspicion is that this approach will not work well in solids, and we will see if Lockheed can make good on their claims of increasing penetration thriough rock by a facot of five or more.
The Office of Naval Research design releases the cloud of darts from a thousand feet or so, but they all impact in an area just sixty feet across. That in itself is an indication of the level of precision guidance which is now possible with this technique one which might be adapated for a other munitions attacking small targets without collateral damage.
The other interesting thing about the Venom dart is this idea of neutralizing ordnance by chemicals means. Of course its been tried before, but in this case there seems to be a genuinely effective means of delivering it from a safe stand-off distance. It would not take too much brilliance to design a hand-held launcher for the darts, a useful option for quickly and reliably dealing with mines and IEDs without having to get close to them.
– David Hambling
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Navy’s Deadly New DartsLeave a Reply |
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David — Do you know why the darts are released at such a high altitude? 60 feet is a pretty tight effect radius from 1000 feet, but why not try for something even tighter by releasing them at a lower altitude?
It definitely looks pretty cool.
I can just imagine the stink raised when some civilians, or even the enemy with a camcorder, get hit with some of these things.
“US INDISCRIMENANTLY INJECTING CIVILIANS WITH CHEMICAL WEAPONS!” “POISON CLUSTER BOMBs USED AGAINST INSURGENTS“
Cue the “well, its not a chemical weapon per se…” discussion.
This thing is what nightmares are made of!… I like it and I think it could come in pretty no matter where or how we use it.
RE — the high altitude release is so that the darts assume a stable attitude before they hit, to ensure they come in vertical. The could cluster tighter, but I believe this is intended to be optimal for the number of darts. it’s still a very small area and you would need 10+ bombs to clear a reasonable path from sea to shore.
I’ll be looking at more radical clearance technology soon.
How can this possibly be more useful than explosives on the battlefield.
How on earth are the chemicals help[ful in the destruction of mines?
Besides, aren’t chemical weapons illegal?
Hey guys, it’s WAR! Breaking things and killing enemies. If someone is ambitios/foolish enough to get themselves on the receiving end of these things, why are we worrying about their “environment”?
Of course, I prefer the carpet bombing option. We’ve got 90+ operational B-52s…let’s use ‘em!
Terrorists plant IEDs and lie in wait to attack the survivors because they are too cowardly to fight face to face. Whether its American or Iraqi troops they oppose, they just cannot muster the courage to act like real men, thus IEDs were born.
Did I hear someone sniveling about a highly alkaline in H2O solution? Suspected Immunotoxicant? So what? The bottom line is that such weapons were developed as countermeasures to IEDs.
Its a simple concept: better to cause death and injury to cowards who plant IEDs than allow them to hurt the good guys.
When was the last time you heard of a terrorist bomb, IED or suicide bomber using a device designed to minimize collateral damage?
the idea that these would be used as anti-personel bombs is ludicrous.…
you have to find the enemy first. retards. and then the intel you get is usually wrong, so they aren’t where you thought they were, and if they are, tiny darts aren’t going to pierce through the bunkers and caves they’re living in.
as for the chemical, why would human beings be hanging around a mind field where these will be dropped anyway? the chemical is nothing long lasting, anyway…
Hey, whatever it takes to neutralize the bad guys. They were not educated nor do they care about the Geneva convention. “Illegal chemicals.” Isn’t terrorism and murder illegal. Who cares if there’s chemicals. Gun powder is a chemical.….
Yes chemical weapons are illegal, especially in fabric softeners:
Ethyleneamine-based fabric softeners are commonly added to textile materials to make them less harsh, “softer” or more pleasing to the touch. Softeners also act as antistatic and antisoiling agents, and impart fluffiness. Softeners are added to the home washing machine during a rinse cycle or as part of a detergent/softener combination product, or to the clothes dryer. Softening agents based on Diethylenetriamine (DETA) and Triethylenetetramine (TETA) are also used in industrial textile processing operations. The most common ethyleneamine-based fabric softeners are bis-amidoamines or imidazolines made from DETA and fatty acids. AEEA, DETA and TETA
Isopropanolamine Mixture is used in hand cleaner formulations.
courtesy of a DETA manufacturer
I think any weapon that gives us the upper hand is great but let us not forget Vietnam and agent orange. A chemical weapon that did more harm to our own troops then good. So ok chemicals may be the way to go but lets be ever mindful that our troops are on the battlefield also. The all they come first above all else
The terrorist have home field advantage. Americans need to wake up, we have entered a football game wearing hockey skates, if we are not willing to play by the rules of the game we need to get off of the field. Our rules of engagement are nothing short of sending in Willy Shoemaker (Jockey) to take out Michael Jordan on the basketball court, sure it will sell tickets but strategically not so smart. It took 2 atomic bombs to get Japan to surrender and they only hated us for 5 years prior to the bombing. the muslim world has hated us for a thousand years, do the math.
Hey Guys, I have a radical idea for fighting this unconventional ‘war’. Lets seal the borders with the other countries, thereby isolating Iraq (Afganistan, Iran, Washington DC, etc) from getting aid or support from them. Form a cordon 0.5 mile in from said borders, NO ONE IN, NO ONE OUT. Pull all of our troops into said ‘safe’ areas, and let the indigents have at it. Last person standing forms the new government. If you attempt to leave or enter, you are turned back once, if you try again, you are simply killed on the spot. If you approach to within 3000 feet of a safe area more than once, you get a welcoming gift from a barrett .50 or a mannlicher 6.8. A few times of this under a very tight air cover, guess what, they quit trying and dying and learn to get along…just my two cents worth.
The US is only 231 years old so 1,000 years of hate for us is a bit overstated. I would concede about 90 years, since the discovery of the giant oil fields and subsequent American influx.
Unfortunately, the negative feelings toward “Western Civilization” go back much further than 90 years. It seems the Ottoman Empire had the same agenda. Times and tactics have changed, but not the end goal.
Just use anything that will get rid of the enemy and bring our boys home.
We don’t need to mess around with these guys as if they are not fighting their not eating..
Go back to the old tried and true method. I do mean don’t ever put our men in harms way.
If darts work go for it. Bouncing betty’s, the fifty thousands pounders.
Let’s play for keeps. We’re not over their for our health..
I was in Veitnam, i think we should put a glass dome over the Iraq, Iran borders that way no more killings. Take the gloves off is all im saying
I agree with most of the posts on this subject. Whatever it takes. I enjoy as much as the next guy watching videos of our men and women kicking butt. However I think it is time to pull the Cameras, and reporters out and get the job done BY ANY MEANS!! As my old Odnance handeling officer use to say: “Kill em all and let God sort em out!!”
I am more concerned with the ideology behind the various sects of Islam and why They (terrorist
factions) call the Western influences ‘infidels’. They
seem to destroy Their own people (who believe in
the Koran) with equal zeal. Is it Their to DICTATE
to all denizens of Their ‘Holy Land’ as to the style
and method of living? Isn’t that Totalitarianism or
Tyrrany in itself? Are They becoming their own despised enemy? Shouldn’t They declare ‘Jihad’ upon
themselves? Incidentally, their are many nations with
self-deterministic cultures which are not as American
democracies. Some of these type Nations are out
of the ‘Western’ world. Should the ‘Jihadist’ take
they self-righteous combat against civilian targets
there as well? It would be the Cowardly thing to do!
Being a descendant of Huguenots and still pissed with Louis Quatorze, the “Kill’em all, Let God sort em out” doesn’t sound good whatever religion is involved. It does matter who we kill and how. this weapon sounds good, but i’d like to know how the chemical works, residuals and all that enviro stuff that so “gores” the killer-effete
I WAS IN VIETNAM 67 68 DURING TET AND AT KHESANH. WE NEED TO STOP FOOLING AROUND WITH THOSE PEOPLE AND USE OUR B52’S AND START A SERIES OF CARPET BOMBING. THEY HAVE NO REGARD FOR LIFE, THEY KILL THERE OWN PEOPLE SO LETS HELP THEM OUT AND BOMB THE HELL OUT OF THEM
Where is Harry Truman type Goverment when we need it. If we would use the the big boy just once I bet all the so called Terrist would give up if all their country was unlivable for 50 years.
Those of us who were around during WWII know that the war was won by cutting the supply lines of both the Japanese and the Germans. Evidently the Iraq situation is out of hand because supplies are getting throughTake away their ammo and foodsupply lines and things will come to a standstill
‘Kill them all and let God sort them out’ if we don’t do it to them they will certainly do it to us. They have professed this to us for many years. Pull the troops back 1 mile and carpet bomb them. They have no compulsion what so ever for the ‘innocents’ when they deal with the United States. I was in Viet Nam and had to put up with ‘mother may I shoot?’ rules of engagment.
Again, you need to read the article. The weapons are used to clear 60 feet of beach from mines. which is why the darts go through water and sand. They not intended to be used on people nor do the chemicals have any use on people. Although I’m sure any people on the beach would be in trouble with the density of the darts, but the danger would be from the darts, rather than the chemicals.
Few observations
1. Call ‘em cowards if you want but those cowards have kept us at bay for almost 4 years.
2. We can’t secure our own border with the resouces we have in the US. So forget about securing theirs with the limited resources we have in Iraq.
3. Sure we could drop a lot of big bombs. I’m never against that if it get us closer to our objective. Since our objective is the liberation of the Iraqis (Bush’s words, Bush’s plan, I’m backing him the best I can) the B52s can not bring us closer to our objective. Unless Bush’s plan was to liberate them from their earthly bodies. lol. If that’s the case put ‘em in the air.
4. The chemical dart. I like new tech as much as the next techie and I love military hardware. But I must point out that our government has never been forthright about the hazards. How many years did it take them to acknowledge the Agent Orange issues. How about gulf war issues, and depleated urainium? I don’t think demanding to know effects of chems is unreasonable knowing their ability to deny those who served a little respect. But with that aside, I like the weapon.
5. Mother may I shoot is BS regardless of the campaign. But that’s a problem with respects to the mission. In regular war those contraints are not a rigously applied. However you see them used more in policing actions that are mis-titled as a war. I don’t think Iraq has been a war in years, it’s been a protracted policing mission with some misguided counterinsurgency effort. Our military never does well when they have to be cops. Our military does great when we kill and destroy to take land, we have always done well at that, even if we have to do it twice because we don’t have enough troops to hold. That’s what we do.
I’ve been a supporter of sending an additional 200,000 troops. The “go big” plan as the Pentagon is calling it. I’m starting to think it’s too big and too costly for Bush and America to sign-up. It may require a draft, which I’m not for because it will dilute the quality of our ranks, and it would require a war tax to pay for it. Bush doesn’t want that.
If this war is so important that our very existence could be riding on it, why would we send a mere 21,000 more troops to respond to a threat so large? Shouldn’t the response be equal or greater than the threat?
I was taught to never under-estimate your enemy. What the hell happened with that?
I was taught to deny the enemy his supplies.
In this case we let them have access to all of Iraq’s conventional weapons depots, by failing to secure them at the start of the war.
I’m a fan of Rummy but he really has me scratching my head saying WTF on this one.
One of the greatest sayings I learned in the Marines was Prior Planning Prevents Piss-poor Performance. I guess no one got the word.
Oh yeah, this thread is about the darts!!
I like it. But I wonder how effective it can be. Sure it could be good when you know where the mines are, but would you use it as a sort of recon by fire when searching for mines? I wonder how much one round would cost and are the Seabees just as effective for less the price.
I love the military, I love the technology. But F*@ck the Iraq war, just nuke the damn bastards so we can go home and forget this BS we call our President!
I see some pea brains with no clue as to the facts do not think our war in Iraq is correct.
Well, you clueless clod, this Agnostic Atheist (to show I am no neo-con) vet who served in the 101st) submits anyone who does not know our actions in Iraq are fully justified and a necessary part of our war on terror is EITHER ignorant of PROVEN facts OR they are just TOO STUPID to understand the facts.
I wonder if the flechett rounds that we use in 105’s is close to the same thing as the darts? If they worked in water they would probably be a heck of a lot cheaper.
Been trough alot,but feel sorry for our boys and girls in the filed.
All I can ask is anyone remember the nutron bomb?
Get our troops put and drop that sucker!
End of it ALL!!!
I read these posts and just go back to the hidden Marine infantryman that lurks inside me. I teach HS now in Brooklyn NY. I have some pics of me and my buddies carrying fellow Marine during the beurut conflict hanging on my cork board above my desk. I look so young that I got used to telling the students that I knew the guys in the pictures. I never point to me. There must be so many people like me. We are producing more now with this conflict. I wish we could all get together in a major sports arena and party. No civilians allowed. If you want to share a story with a vet so be it. If not, talk about family, kids, new life. We need to unite. No politicians unless they served in a conflict. I would even give respect to the politicians that were held in the rear. The guilt of not being able to go foward of the FEBA and serve under fire. They asked to serve but got screwed. Maybe for the better in my mind. They are actually lucky. When I was in Beirut, I spoke to a sucking chest wound LT who was a former Army Ranger turned Marine officer. He died in 15 minutes after we flew him out. Sometimes, he talks to me in dreams. I got over the fear of waking up suddenly and feeling his presence. No more fear. We will join him soon. I just want to live for my children and leave them when I have to with all of my wisdom. They will carry on.
I served during Vietnam and went to Korea right after the Pueblo was captured. This war (Iraq) is a polished war. First of all, the media needs to be removed and then we need to let out men and women take over the place. In other words, kick ass and take names later
this is obviously an anti personnel weapon. the grouping wouldnt work from that altitude. also, DETA
http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/dh_03bf/ 09002f13803bfdbc.pdf?filepath=amines/pdfs/noreg/108–01370.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc
is a skin irritant. is this supposed to help our guys in a surf zone? I think it makes them impossible to remove and that causes a great health hazard even after the fight.
GET THE NEWS MEDIA out and let the soldiers do what they have been trained to do… the Media is the cause of so many mistakes being made and even coaxed upon our Soldiers, the Media was our worst enemy in Vietnam and they are the same here, always showing the worst and never the good stroies and the Victories, there fore the enemy is the Media… BACK OFF, unless youre ready to become a Soldier and actually fight for your rights and freedoms which we all doubt..
Munitions with chemicals? Any one in the military who would launch it and the one’s who ordered it would be facing a war crimes tribunal. Get real.
Hey, kyliniemi !!! You better get your head out of the sand and pay attention! Doe’s this article say anything about “Chemicals of mass destruction”? These are obviously designed to detonate the mine,next time real the whole article. Or admit that you are a liberal. In that case, you are not smart enough to read the whole thing!
Guys– “This is not a poison gas weapon the chemicial is not released until the darts are well underground(undersea), the Chemicial reacts with nitrates like in plastic explosives, & SIMEX. It makes then chance into amides, and cease to be explosive. Any civilians in the area of the darts would be in greater danger of stepping on one of their own mines. the DETA over a few weeks naturally decomposes int ammonia and other non-toxic stuff. it is non carcogenic. True if you get a big dose, hot, it would be bad, so would a lot of things used in the USA every day.
“Maybe it would just be better for us to advoid the entire area, and leave the mines for the kids playing on the beach to step on by accident.”
DETA, really isnt a chemical, its an explosive normally used in sheet form. Yes it is a chemical explosive but so is EVERY other explosive. C-4 for example is made out of RDX and a plasticizer with a mix of 91% and 9% respectively. So yes everyhting is a “chemical” but military standards for explosives state that they must be minimally toxic. You dont want your average engineer running around with c-4 in his pocket being exposed to some chemical that is going to rot his leg off. As long as you dont eat it, you are good to go.
DETA is a chemical in liquid form, read the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). The article says it neutralizes the explosive not detonates it. How long does it take? Hours, days or weeks?
Can’t they use the darts without the chemical? Criticizing a bad idea does not make one a liberal or un-American.
Some interesting comments here, though it seems the word ‘chemical’ is a trigger for some folks.
The DETA causes the explosive to burn rather than exploding, and neutralises it in seconds. The resulting debris may not be too environmentally friendly, but it’s a great deal better than a live minefield.