The debate these days is all about whether or not Tehran is supplying Iraq’s armor-piercing bombs. But the roots of these explosively formed projectiles, or EFPs, goes all the way back to Hitler-era Germany, the Yorkshire Ranter notes. Military historian Larry Grupp explains.
Dr. Hubert Schardin was definitely not a Nazi. Nevertheless, he stood stiffly at attention in full Luftwaffe dress uniform at Gestapo headquarters in Budapest, Hungary. It was the spring of 1944 and Schardin, a brilliant German explosives physicist, needed assistance. Under direct orders from Adolf Hitler to develop new superweapons, he needed the Gestapo’s help to locate a famous but reclusive Hungarian colonel named Misznay who could provide detailed information regarding the complex physics involved in shaped charge explosives.
Colonel Misznay was, by all historical indicators, so elusive that today we are even uncertain what his real first name was. In all probability, Misznay was either a double or perhaps even a triple agent. After World War II, he dropped out of sight in the Eastern Bloc. Yet his last name lives on as a result of a special explosive phenomenon he identified, called the Misznay-Schardin effect — a phenomenon that recognizes that fragments can be thrown from the face of an explosive charge in a predictable pattern, much like a projectile from a rifle barrel.
It’s that effect which forms the heart of the EFP’s deadly power. These Pentagon documents. , obtained by ABC News, give the best public run-down I’ve seen so far on how lethal these bombs have been.
(Big ups: AT)
Good Morning Folks,
For those of us old enough to remember the “Cold War” the “EFP’s” as we are now calling them were a staple of the German Red Army Gangs of the 60’s @ 70’s. If I recall the first successful use of one of these devices was in the mid-60’s in Bonn where a banker traveling in an armored Mercedes was take out by on of thse planted in a trashcan on a corner where the vehicle had to turn. It was nothing more then a sheet of plumbers copper with a kilo of Simtex behind it and a command detentor. The banker was cut in half by the copper as it passed through the armored vehicle.
I guess the gee wiz technology that we can expect from the terrorists is water packed explosions, very effect and very effective and CHEAP. Then they can move on to fuel air.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
I assume it’s first implementation was the Panzerfaust?
I’m glad someone pointed out that this concept is at least over 50 years old. In fact, it’s no different than the shaped charge in an RPG. Same concept, new flowery name… (EFP)
Any serious terrorist or insurgent bomb maker worth his weight in sand would be aware of this simple concept.. and certainly wouldn’t need Iran’s help to employ it in a devastating manner.… as we’re seeing.
This is yet one more reason that we should NOT engage in NATIONAL BUILDING. Particularly in a Muslim nation with a 1400 year history of internal tribal and religious conflict…
…and if for some freaking reason you DO, you CERTAINLY DON’T SHIT on your Army Chief of Staff when he bravely testifies before Congress that we would need on the order of 500,000 troops –in order to secure the PEACE after the initial conflict!
(Not to mention IGNORE and ridicule the principles of the Powell Doctrine — the hard-learned lessons of 10 years of fighting in Vietnam and the basis for our clear cut Victory in Gulf War 1 — that states quite clearly that if you are going to start a damn war, you better make damn well sure to bring OVERWHELMING force, ALL of your allies, and have a CLEARLY defined set of ACHIEVABLE goals that will define victory — BEFORE YOU invade!
But, ahhh… these clowns that blundered us into this mess are the same damn pencil-necked, paper-pushing, wing-flapping, jock-sniffers who still think we only lost in Viet Nam because the of the Media and the Hippies.
And all of the real military folks who knew better either got shit-canned, “retired”, threatened into silence — or when they did speak, their realistic voice didn’t feed the sensationalist machine enough to get any air time from the MSM.
Instead, we get a bunch of freaking bozo political pundits and hacks to “inform” us of all things military.
Maybe we should get back to leaving the military stuff to the Military people — and put the draft-dodging book worms back in their offices where they belong.
What are the ingredience needed for a good EFP IED:
a) A good design, on what the metal and the explosive should look like and where the detonator should go. Who wants to bet that insurgent sites have all sorts of nice designs for these?
b) Some nice explosive. Ideally, it should be easily malliable/moldable into shape. Hmm, I wonder how many of those 100 tons of HMX and RDX(? I think thats what they were) are still floating around?
c) Copper or other nicely maleable metal to form the EFP itself. I wonder how many downed powerlines put up with US money were returned to the US army this way?
Am I missing something?
“water packed explosions”?
kevin h -
“water packed explosions” (sure there’s a more technical term) are kinda of a new way of getting the most (directed) bang out of explosives.… By encasing one side of them in a jacket of water, they direct the explosion and maximize the effect in one direction… Not dissimilar to the effect of a shaped charge… or EFP… or whatever they’re calling it these days.
Byron, your post almost answers my question, but I’d like to pose it anyway.
The implication is that sophisticated techniques are needed to build these devices, that they could only come from a state agency. Aside from the fact that a lot of stuff is generally available in the international arms market, couldn’t these devices be manufactured in Western Pakistan? The tribal groups are quite adept at copying any weapon they get their hands on.
Why assume they came from Iran?
And the English markings on the demo mortar round don’t look much like Farsi.
Most people don’t realize it, but the kinetics part of warfare really hasn’t changed too much since World War II. Most of the chemical compounds in modern munitions today are still based on RDX (discovered in the 1890s), HMX (1930s) and TNT (1860s) blends. The Munroe effect (the partner effect to Misznay-Schardin that lead to the creation of shaped charges) was discovered back in 1888.
The only really amazing advances in military technology that have occured since the end of World War II that I can think of are the integrated circuit, the transistor and the Internet Protocol. And people wonder why the U.S. military is so obsessed with electronics and information technology nowadays…
Robot is right, EFP have been around since WW1, so why are people suprised they show up in Iraq? EFP can defeat 100-150mm RHA, which is enough to shred a Humvee. I’ve seen pictures of troops that got hit by a molten slug travelling at 1 km/s, horrible. For a comparison, modern AT shape charge EFJ can defeat 900mm RHA. If 70 percent of all casualties are caused by IED, then the Iranian connection is statistically insignificant.
EFPs and shaped charges are actually two separate kinds of weapon. Both rely on the Munroe effect of explosives, which is that the shock wave emanating from a detonating material always acts normal to the surface of that material. Both shaped charges and EFPs use this phenomena to mold a
Shaped charges are formed by taking an inverted cone of metal and surrounding it with explosive. When the explosive detonates, it compresses the metal and causes it to literally spurt forward like a liquid. A lot of times you will hear people talk about jets of ‘molten copper’ or sometimes even a plasma jet. In reality what’s happening is that the metal is being driven so fast that it’s behaving like a liquid, yet remains a solid. This jet of metal can penetrate great distances, but requires very close tolerances in order to get the proper effect.
EFPs are similar, but produce a different result. A specially shaped plate of metal is embedded on one side with explosive, and the explosive is detonated. The explosive drives the metal into a projectile, which is projected forward at incredible velocities (as much as 8 km/s I’ve heard). These projectiles can travel significant distances before penetrating into a target.
So while EFPs and shaped charges are similar, they produce different effects. Both require precise machining and tolerances to form the proper metal components, and the material properties of the metal itself also have to be precisely controlled. The explosives also have to be particularly specialized.
So yeah, depending on the quality of the explosives it’s pretty much guaranteed that they’re obtaining some kind of professional assistance.
Yeah Yeah just Bushitler cooking the intel errrrr
Check this out more intel cooking
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml
Nothing to see here move along move along:
You guys know better than this weak propaganda via possible doubt you defenctech guys are trying to push. Hey “if the glove don’t fit you must acquit”.
Pitifull guys pitifull
Kevin G. — True, EFPs are like a subset of the shaped charge family. They are specially designed to maintain the continuity of the slug over long distances. While the measurements needed to produce an EFP are pretty precise, anyone with a proven design on paper and the appropriate materials can produce them outside of a factory setting.
I’m not sure about this story. The first German use of shape charges I know of in WWII was on May 10, 1940. The paratroopers attacking the Belgian fortress of Eben Emal took out the gun turrets with shape charges. I’ve visited the site, and the holes from the charges are clearly visible on the turrets.
By the way for all of you “that don’t look like FArsi” experts on Iranian weapons.
http://www.iranmilitaryforum.com/pictures/IMF/Missiles/12_850.jpg
Iran is a self admitted Radical Islamist of the Shia stripe, AQ is self admitted Sunni Radicals, both groups of Islamic radicals may very well hate each other and be blood enemies at the end of the day. However “my enemy
>Why assume they came from Iran?
>And the English markings on the demo mortar round don’t look much like Farsi.
It might not be a complete answer, but I remember Iran supported Hezbollah has been using shape charged explosives against Israel long ago. Shape charged explosives used in Iraq has been spotted coming from the border of Iran. The use of shape charged explosives in Iraq has been covered by a news article from Telegraph. US officials have also blamed Iran for developing and exporting these to Iraq.
Good Evening zak822,
I can do better. How to make a home made EFP as well as packed explosive devices was shown on the Military Channel a few weeks ago. The program is called Weaponogly, the one with the ex Seal.
Since this information was put out in the public domain I will answer your question zak822.
But for all who missed the program, all you need to do is go to home Depot buy( please don’t steal the material, that’s so sixtyish) about a 6″ Lgn. of PVC pipe, white or black it don’t matter an end cap and about an 8“x8” piece of copper. Bend the cooper into a cone about 3/4″ deep, cut coperinto a circle that will fit inside the PVC pipe. Drill a hole into the end cap for a deninator and glue the end cap to one end of pipe.
Fill pipe with explosive of choice. Insert cooper plate into open end of pipe and pack into explosives run some silcone around the edge of the cooper, insert blasting cap into hole in end cap and you have yourself one each terrorists special EFP. Total cost less explosives about $10.00.
The above statement no doubt violates serveral parts of the “Patriot Act”. As you can see making an EFP is not the work of any higher life form. I think the Robot Economists pretty well state the history of kenetic energy weapons and the use of explosives. All you are really doing is throwing something, not unlike a lever or bow and string, just a wee bit harder.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Quick clarification…I didn’t think this knowledge was so widely held…thats the reason for the “we’re screwed” comment…
B. Skinner — Didn’t see the Military Channel show, but I had a phsyics professor who was know to dabble in IED concepts for the Army.
He demonstrated a miniature EFP for us once using 1.5″ steel pipe and a copper disc molded on a golfball. It shot the slug 50+ feet and penetrated all the way though a cider block.
He’s still free (last time I checked), so fortunately the DoJ shouldn’t be busting down your door anytime soon.
The shaped charges are just part of the story.
The mortar shells dated manufacture after the US invasion of Iraq.
The Iranian agents caught in Iraq (Quads force the Iranian Special Forces).
The missiles ammunition RPG’s possible recent advanced SA-18’s use and older versions MANPADS.
The .50 cal sniper rifles Iran bought that then somehow ended up in Iraq (we just busted a stash of over a hundred).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml
And if you read the report it says that the shaped charges were not some Bubba job but manufactured assembly line type with processed metals. If they were scrapping these things out in the basement their would be no two the same. Their would be regional differences in shape, materials, craftsmanship, would all vary widely. That is not what we are seeing that is difference.
Of course it sounds like the shaped charges don’t have serial numbers on them so even if you can prove assembly line manufacture over Bubba’s basement you cannot prove Iranian manufacture. That is why the Mortar, .50 cal Snipers, Ammo, Rifles, Manpads varying designation, Quads captures, shipments crossing border captures, all of this taken together some of it pointing directly at the Iranian’s specifically is how A leads to Z. Their is no such thing as Irrefutable evidence but at some point you gotta take in the combined picture.
So you take a Desert Eagle with the .50 caliber barrel and mag and load it with Raven ammo.
I smell some arrogance (or stupidity) in the way US handles these kinds of emergent threats. I thought a commandment of war was to expect the unexpected? And it’s a war for clying out loud.
Cheating, playing facades, doing proxy warfare and hitting anything vurnerable has allways been the way (that old chinese guy had a book on it). Why is everybody debating wheter or not Iran is suppllying weapons? Handle it! It wont be aliens or goblins that make them.