The AM General High-Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle, or Humvee, has been the workhorse tactical vehicle for U.S. forces since the mid 1980s. There are no fewer than 140,000 examples in more than 15 versions in service with all military branches. The Humvee has been praised for its versatility and ruggedness, but operations in Iraq and Afghanistan have revealed serious shortcomings, including inadequate power generation, limited seating capacity and — most notably — the designs vulnerability to roadside bombs.
Building on limited deployments of specialized blastproof vehicles for engineers and bomb disposal teams, the Army and Marines are co-sponsoring programs to buy potentially thousands of so-called Mine-Resistant Ambush-Protected trucks, worth as much as $1 billion, followed by 100,000 or more Joint Light Tactical Vehicles for tens of billions more. The two programs will eventually replace all Humvees with tougher, roomier designs.
But that will take decades, especially as Pentagon officials attempt to reign in costs. Acquisition czar Kenneth Krieg said in early March that he was considering moving MRAP out of the militarys fast-but-loose rapid-fielding process due to the anticipated scale and cost of the vehicle purchase, which he said demand careful oversight.
To keep Humvees up to speed while the military awaits replacements, BAE Systems is proposing a range of high-tech modifications, according to program manager Steve Cortese.
At the Association of the United States Army winter symposium in Fort Lauderdale on March 7–9, BAE showed off a demonstrator with the full range of upgrades, including: a new multi-band antenna that replaces a complex jumble of antennae on existing Humvees; a rear-mounted infrared camera for checking blind spots; pop-out windows for quick escape in emergencies; and a new power management system. Many of these improvements are derived from BAEs work on the Future Combat Systems family of vehicles, slated to make their debut around 2010.
The Advanced Power Management System represents perhaps the most important change. This system, ported from FCS, provides the extra electrical power that the vehicle needs in order to support radio jammers that defeat Improvised Explosive Devices. APMS also has an export function, allowing an equipped Humvee to function as a sort of mobile generator a capability usually seen on hybrid diesel-electric vehicles. APMS turns a standard Humvee into a poor mans hybrid, Cortese says.
The mods are all based on feedback from Iraq and Afghanistan, Cortese adds. Were trying to be sensitive to the needs of the warfighter.”
–David Axe, cross-posted at War Is Boring
Someone made a good comment on this a few weeks back– the Humvee was intended as a rear-areas liaison and utility vehicle. It’s a Jeep replacement, folks.
Unsurprisingly, it’s turned out to make a rather poor APC, and I kind of doubt that any amount of mods will address the fact that the Humvee is being asked to do jobs it was not designed for.
The stupid part of this is that there’s no shortage of more suitable vehicles on the world market for pretty low prices, even as a stopgap measure.
Actually, it is antennas and not antennae for hardware. Only antennae for insects.
See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/antenna
Lie mike said, there’s plenty of wheeled transports on the market, that were designed with mine resistance. Can’t think of names of th etop o my head, but I know South Africa developed several transports/fav/whatnot vehicle that would hold up against any of th ethousands of AT mines scattered through out thier neighborhood.
Hell, then there’s the Merkeva Namera, and such APC’s. Take an old take, clean out the insides, put on remote weapons station on it, and have an APC that can take a hit, and hit back.
The title of the post should have been Bureaucracy wins out.
More than likly the troops will be out of Iraq and Afghanistan, before a MRAP program is delivered.
MRAP vehicles are different than a HUMVEE. The HUMVEE was simply not designed for what its is encountering in Iraq and Afghanistan. As to whether a armored car or a BAE upgrades will do , well I guess you can make do with anything.
“With flat-bottomed vehicles, the blast effect can be amplified if an explosion occurs directly beneath. A blast wave striking the underside will be
Mr. Wilson’s comments are very extreme.… I think the problem with ‘leveling a city’ is that trying to win over the civilian population is part of a winning strategy. Imagine if you were told that your home was about to be leveled in a situation similar to Red Dawn (Russians occupying west coast USA).. the Iraq Equivalent is that you would become an insurgent. I certainly hope that when they say that the government is getting in the way of doing their jobs… I think it’s because they don’t want casualties, and end up camping out in big bases (Ref: New Lawrence of Arabia)
Mike:
While I agree with Mike that the HUMVEE was meant to be a Jeep. I was surprised to hear Canada was able to procure new ‘existing’ technologies in over 2 years.… why can’t the US do the same? I guess it’s they are always looking forward, and not looking at the now.
mrnitropb the trucks from S Africa that you were inclear about is the RG31, Cougar, Husky, and Buffalo. I have had a lot of experince with these trucks in the box and trust me when I saw you want to be in these trucks when a bomb goes off. Too bad we had to wait till the war was started before we had them.
Mrnitropb the trucks from S Africa that you were unclear about is the RG31, Cougar, Husky, and Buffalo. I have had a lot of experience with these trucks in the box and trust me when I saw you want to be in these trucks when a bomb goes off. Too bad we had to wait till the war was started before we had them.
Foreign Boy,
I’d say that Canada was able to field new technologies more quickly because they have a lot fewer forces deployed? If the US Army is going to field those vehicles in proportionate quantities, they’d have to purchase a lot more of them. Being the biggest sometimes means moving the slowest.
Foreign Boy,
I’d say that Canada was able to field new technologies more quickly because they have a lot fewer forces deployed? If the US Army is going to field those vehicles in proportionate quantities, they’d have to purchase a lot more of them. Being the biggest sometimes means moving the slowest.
The spec ops version of the Humvee (the GMV) does well in places like Afganistan, but 2 things to keep in mind– 1.-all GMNVs are extensively modified by the users in terms of firepower and survivability in ways that would make Monster Garage look tame. Much of this material is aquired by “unconventional means” 2.-If you hit a typical IED in one of these things, you are lucky if anyone survives.
So, why did the US military turn down the opportunity to buy the South African vehicles. Sounds like a domestic profit motive to me.
I find it both funny and sad when I read about the proposed ‘upgrades.’ Modified antennas, more electrical power and a rear mounted video camera aren’t the sort of things one typically sees as helping to make the vehicle safer. As for the easy to pop out windows, I wonder how many times getting out has been an issue, especially when th doors have already been blown off by the force of the explosion? Get serious, the only upgrades that will save lives is to get people out of the current vehicle and into something better. Adding additional armor to help make it safer only tends to slow it down while lining the pockets of those who win the contracts.
The really sad part is that the South Africans already had the the answer years ago, but those who control this sort of things either didn’t see that or didn’t want to because they had ties to firms like AMC.
If you need a tank, use a tank. Trying to make a vehicle into a tank will end up as another tank. Not cost effective. It would be better to design and build a desired vehicle than a hodge-podge upgrade of a humvee.
Like it has been said a Humvee is not an APC but the US needs to build our own equipment. The Humvee was getting over loaded when we had XM1109s in Bosnia. We out source everything else not the military. Even if we don’t design it let’s build it.
It was made to replace the M-151 Jeep and 1 1/2T truck.It wasn’t designed to be a M-113 APC.Let’s get real and use as it was designed.Bradleys were made to replace APC’s, use them.
Like anything else the military planners contract
to have produced, they try to get one item to replace 5, spending ’10 cents’ in production and
development costs, then millions in modifications
and upgrades. Exaggeration? Just look at the M16,the Beretta ‘NATO’ pistol, the F-111 and now
the JSF. All these military machines were
created to unify the armed forces inventory thus
reducing costs. When will the planner realize we
have 4 (not including the Coast Guard) distinct
armed forces with their own UNIQUE missions
These missions require just as unique machinery
and armaments. If the Congress TRULY wishes to
save costs in the military, try promoting fewer
admirals and generals! Maybe then we can afford
to give our people the stuff they need to carry
out the orders of the Commander in Chief!
Like anything else the military planners contract
to have produced, they try to get one item to replace 5, spending ’10 cents’ in production and
development costs, then millions in modifications
and upgrades. Exaggeration? Just look at the M16,the Beretta ‘NATO’ pistol, the F-111 and now
the JSF. All these military machines were
created to unify the armed forces inventory thus
reducing costs. When will the planners realize
we have 4 (not including the Coast Guard)
distinct armed forces with their own UNIQUE
missions. These missions require just as unique
machinery and armaments. If the Congress TRULY
wishes to save costs in the military, try
promoting fewer admirals and generals! Maybe
then we can afford to give our people the stuff
they need to carry out the orders of the
Commander in Chief!
The HMMWV is not a tank. It wasnt designed to be a tank so quit trying to make it a tank. We’ve got all these Bradleys and Strykers that we spent so much money on so lets use them. What really needs to happen instead of designing a whole new vehicle is just redesign the HMMWV. Gives it a stronger suspension, powerplant, transmission and some composite armor on the sides and back with plating on the floor and ballistic glass for the windshield and door.
Who is doing the upgrades on hummers also how can I get a job with them as a welder Fabricator/Mechanic I live in Florida and have a home in Ma. PLEASE HELP
The real problem here is the Humvee was designed for conventional warfare as a vehicle to move troops to and from the front line. It’s new role is front line combat during Urban warfare. The vehicle is too large, too heavy and nowhere near mobile enough for this job. The military is trying to use the one size fits all concept by upgrading the Humvee. Having variations of a weapon (be it a plane, tank, troop carrier) is fine if this was part of the original concept, but band aid fixes, modifications will never get the job done.
Having used the HMMWVs as convoy command/control/security platforms in Iraq, the 1800# payload of the HMMWV up-armored with ~1000# of armor plate was an issue that left us scratching our heads. The range of the HMMWVs was often a factor in halting an entire convoy of fuel trucks (M915-A2s) to re-fuel the HMMWVs.
By the end of our year-long deployment, most of the HMMWVs were broken or wrecked but the old sandbag shielded 5-tons that we used as gun trucks kept right on rolling.
For all the shortcomings of the old jeeps, at least nobody could accuse them of pretending to be an armored vehicle like the up-armored, aluminum foil-floored HMMWVs.
I’ve been looking at the Brinks trucks and wondering how they would fare if given a combat role.
We went to war with vehicles that were marginal for what they were designed for. Then we put them in places and situations they were never designed to go. Try accelerating in an up armor, you can get out and run quicker. You have a normally aspirated GM 6.2 or the “new improved” 6.5 diesel. It cannot get out of its own way.
Retire them all, replace them with vehicles that will withstand a “moderate” IED. They are out there.
As a Vietnam era vet, I was doubtful of the wisdom of trying to use one vehicle chassis to replace units as different as a M151 JEEP AND A m715 1 1/4 ton truck. I have been impressed with the off-road ability and adaptability of the HUMVEE but still doubt the wisdom of the choice. It seems to be a jack of all trades and master of none.
Armored gun trucks worked well in Vietnam as a counter to unconventional warfare and should work as well in Iraq. They need to be supported by light, fast armored units to provide heavy punch, but are inexpensive, durable and adaptable.
We were using the gun trucks years ago in desert storm. They worked great then, they’ll work great now. Everyone in the combat theatre knows that when you add all the armor plate to the hummers, all you do is slow it down and bog it down in the sand. Fuel consumption goes WAY up, and a convoy sitting still to refuel its own vehicles in the middle of nowhere ALWAYS gave me the willies.
I’m not saying that armoring it was exactly a bad idea … just ask any of the survivors that crawled out of one that got blown to hell. But trying to use the same chassis for EVERYTHING just doesnt work. Relegate the hummer to what it was designed for: scouting, and light infantry support.
You need something with a little more punch than Ma Deuce?? Call in some Strikers or Bradleys. When their 20’s talk, people dont listen … cuz they got killed before they can hear the report. Both have proven themselves to be great command vehicles, ambulances, infantry support, and even though they are armored, they can really kick up their heels when its time for some git up and go!
We were using the gun trucks years ago in desert storm. They worked great then, they’ll work great now. Everyone in the combat theatre knows that when you add all the armor plate to the hummers, all you do is slow it down and bog it down in the sand. Fuel consumption goes WAY up, and a convoy sitting still to refuel its own vehicles in the middle of nowhere ALWAYS gave me the willies.
I’m not saying that armoring it was exactly a bad idea … just ask any of the survivors that crawled out of one that got blown to hell. But trying to use the same chassis for EVERYTHING just doesnt work. Relegate the hummer to what it was designed for: scouting, and light infantry support.
You need something with a little more punch than Ma Deuce?? Call in some Strikers or Bradleys. When their 20’s talk, people dont listen … cuz they got killed before they can hear the report. Both have proven themselves to be great command vehicles, ambulances, infantry support, and even though they are armored, they can really kick up their heels when its time for some git up and go!
I spent 13 years as a squid.. Part of the “Glowing, Smoking Hole Group” And Part of MAD.. A Fair Assesment of the Concept but not even good english… But it seems to ME that a One size Fits all Design, Doesn’t Fit any Purpose really well…
But what do I know.…
The British Army used Brinks like trucks here in Belfast for the last few years. i swear ther’re modified versions with heavy armour, does anyone know how they have been in Iraq/Afghan compared to their Landrover snatch vehicles?
I agree call in the strykers, I for one was glad to see the jeep replaced, it like the hummer served a purpose in its time, now with the IEDs its time for something like the stryker. The Hummer still has a role to play, such as light duties on base or maybe in a perimeter defense role where it can move within a secured perimeter and be a part of a reaction force, but for leading convoys of heavy trucks (command and control) its time for something else.
As a former soldier that was in during the switch from the jeep to the hummer, I can say that the hummer is a worthy replacement for a jeep, but it is far from a cure-all. I agree with the use of Strykers for convoy duty and anywhere an armored solution is needed. My son currently serves in Iraq and he says that the uparmored hummers are a good step forward, but something more is needed. Let’s just hope Congress doesn’t make things worse in the name of petty politics and cut the funding needed to find a better (Vehicular)fit.
The M-1114 is great, but too heavy. We got stuck about three times that I recall due to the tire not spreading the weight evenly enough over the ground/road. As far as needing more armor it makes the vehicle safer, but less mobile.
Just food for thought.
Here’s the MRAP leader… They got 3 models: Bufallo, cougar and the new smaller cheetah.
Amazing trucks, the lucky troops that got one of those simply loves them!
http://www.forceprotection.net/
If you guys buys South African Products whilst in Irag and Afganistan, you will be saving lifes. This Vehicles were made specifically for Mine protection. In the mean time you still need you troops back home in the USA,so just buy what is on the market whilst you are still developing.
good luck guys
What about the Aussie Bushmaster APC.
The Bushmaster carries 10 infantry and is blast resistant.
The Netherlands just bought 25 of the Bushmaster to use in Afghanistan.
Australia already uses a number of the Bushmaster in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I am a welder and I have a better idea for a armored vehichles in Iraq.It was a welder who came up with the adapter to bust through the hedge groves in France in WW2,I have one that will lessen the danger from the roadside bombs.Im a welder,not a quarterback recliner.
I had read in this site few years ago that a military vehicle called humve2 will replace the humvee. So when will this vehicle be ready to be used by the military ?
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