Comments on: Fly Around the Danger

By: DrGnnr

DrGnnr — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:24:11 +0000

Just before my last tour in late ’05, it became policy for Air Force and Navy special operations air assets to only fly at night. No sense in us getting our SOF operators shot down before we even got them to the target.
The recent shootdowns were broad daylight convoy escorts and/or CAS(Close Air Support)flights. I do not recall during our mission briefings any mention of the presence of Stingers. I’m quite sure they would have notified us aircrewmen of that possibility. Most our our predicted threats were the garden variety small arms and RPG’s, as well as Soviet-era SA-7 and SA-14 MANPADS.

By: Marcus Casspir

Marcus Casspir — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 22:54:20 +0000

It’s perhaps not widely known, but the Netherlands has operated our own NAH-64D Apaches both over Iraq and currently in Afghanistan, and although we’ve been fired upon, we only lost one (due to pilot error) in 3 years of combat ops.
The biggest difference is both tactics and mindset in comparison with US / UK Apache ops — USAr Apaches (and to a degree British) still operate in a Cold War mode: fly low and hug the terrain by hiding behind buildings, hills etc to avoid the SAM and radar-AAA.
The RNLAF operates at medium altitude, well out of reach of small arms and RPGs. Yes, well within the MPADS/VSHORAD envelope, but we beat that with technology namely the AMASE twin jammer pods, which provide all azimuth IIR countermeasures in addition to the Apaches standard CMs.
Another big advantage is that this way the Apaches sensor range nearly doubles, giving more advance warning (albeit in seconds, but still) and more maneuvering altitude (able to dive, bank, flip etc).
We also decided to divest the money intended for the Longbow rader (NAH-64D are equipped “for but not with”) into latest generation EO equipment.
Just wondering, how many Kiowas where lost?
Regards,
Marcus

By: j house

j house — Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:37:59 +0000

No question there is a classified number of Stingers outside of ‘US controls’, but there are also capable Chinese and Russian made MANPADS.
I discount any significant threat from Stingers in the Iraq TOO…more worrisome if one is used at a civilian airport somewhere else. At that venue, no IR countermeasures could be employed, and a successful hit is more likely. Although the DHL aircraft survived the SAM-14 attack at BIAP, others may not be so lucky.
Mass groundfire seems to be the most likely culprit to these helicopter downings.
It is insane that the enemy has access to overhead imagery through tools like google earth. Last night, I could easily identify the LZ’s up at the FOB in Tikrit, or the Apaches and AC-130’s sitting on the other side of the tarmac at Djibouti IAP…it may be out of date and we may be changing routines regularly, but it doesn’t help.Amazing.
I hope we are identifying and rolling these groups up right now.

By: Ted

Ted — Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:46:51 +0000

Why don’t they bring back the Pink Team concept developed in Vietnam to counter the ground to air theat. Can some one else explain a little better?

By: BJ

BJ — Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:01:02 +0000

Is there no way to have an automatic response to fire from the ground? bj1

By: j house

j house — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:38:37 +0000

One other comment on Stingers…these missiles have a limited shelf life, especially the BCU component. This is a battery system that must be connected to the launcher assembly to power it up and allow the IR sensor to cool down before engaging a target. They can only be used once.Without it, the system is useless.I don’t think the BCUs have a 20 + year shelf life, although it may be possible to improvise it.It has been 20 years since these were provided to the Muj in Afghanistan, although Stingers may have been diverted to the bad guys from other ‘friendly’ governments since then.
My mistake, that was a CH 47 that was shot down recently, not CH 46.

By: j house

j house — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:21:48 +0000

The fact that you have to fly on a linear path for at least some of the flight time doesn’t help.At 130 knots ground speed, you will cover around 270 ft per second. Within 10 seconds, you’ve traveled more than a half mile in a straight line, if you don’t maneuver.
If you are high enough, that would be plenty of time to be spotted and shot at, if the insurgents are lined up on your vector.It isn’t easy to be hit if you are moving fast and low, but on occasion, they will be in the right place and with the correct lead, they will succeed.
Hopefully, we are spotting them first and directing assets to kill them.

By: j house

j house — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:05:30 +0000

It is doubtful stingers are the biggest threat.Most of the attacks have occurred in flights well under 1000 feet…most likely caused by AA or concentrated small arms fire (PKMs?) (like to Blackwater attack recently..most of the personnel on board suffered gunshot wounds).
The recent Chinook attack, if the insurgent video is accurate, was caused by a SAM, but given the number of Russian and Chinese-made SAMs still in Iraq, it was likely caused by a SAM-7 or 14.
It didn’t appear that the C-46 took any IR countermeasures before it was hit.Also, it was hit from the rear aspect, which would enlarge the heat signature greatly.
If Stingers were employed to any great extent, we would have seen more attacks on larger aircraft coming in and out of BIAP.
Because the Stingers ‘in the wild’ are few in number, one would also assume that they would husband them for an attack of great significance, not on a helicopter.
It is easier for the insurgents to use less capable missiles or ground fire for those results.

By: Kaltes

Kaltes — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:41:19 +0000

No, shoot-downs are the tactical goal because they generate headlines, and headlines/propaganda are the strategic goal because they keep the money and manpower flowing.
If the US military channels flight paths, that does not limit operations. At most, it slightly increases fuel costs, if the trips are longer.

By: Wembley

Wembley — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:45:23 +0000

Looks like the insurgents AA has achieved its goal then: limiting US helicopter operations. As i mentioned, shoot-downs are not necessarily the most important result.