So my main man Rob Curtis is back in the sandbox for a five-week trip with a cub Air Force Times reporter covering Air Force security operations and training missions there.
Rob and I worked for a couple years on a documentary project and have been through some pretty heavy times together.
I wanted to direct you to some photos he shot of the business end of an explosively formed penetrator roadside bomb that struck a vehicle belonging to the unit hes embedded with. Weve both seen the effects of an IED, but Ive never seen anything like this.
American officials are unanimous in their belief that this weapon comes from Iran. If so, I dont understand how this doesnt prompt more consternation from the public and politicians on both sides of the aisle and of the Iraq war debate.
That may or may not be true. But the thought that one of my bros was just one patrol away from being maimed or killed by a weapon designed and/or built in Iran to maim and kill Americans is pretty upsetting
Iran links update:
Yesterday, Joint Chiefs chairman, Gen. Pete Pace, told us Iranian weapons have been recently found in Afghanistan, sent there to supply the Taliban. Thats the first official admission that the weapons from the Shiite-dominated government are winding up in the hands of Sunni-aligned Taliban insurgents.
Its also helpful to note this exchange between CNNs Barbara Starr and Multinational Corps-Iraq commander, Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno on Friday
Q General Odierno, Barbara Starr from CNN. You spoke about Iran again. Are you able yet to tell us that there is direct evidence that it is the Iranian government or the leadership of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps or Al-Qods that is directly ordering this interference in Iraq? Are you learning anything from the Al-Qods member — people you still have in custody? Are you able to carry your evidence any further than just they’re out there and theyre causing interference?
GEN. ODIERNO: I would just say right now — I’m only willing to say that it’s clear that the Qods Force is involved in what’s going on here by supplying training, money and weapons. We’re still working other aspects of it, but I’m not willing to comment on anything along those lines.
I would say, though, it is clear that they continue to interfere, the Qods Force continues to attempt to interfere in Iraqi — in operations inside of Iraq. We continue to intercept weapons. We know there’s money that’s flowing in from Iran to certain insurgent groups in Iraq, and we will continue to work through this.
And in fact we’re working now to determine whether they are in fact not only providing support to Shi’a groups but also Sunni insurgent groups. We don’t have any specific proof of that yet, but there’s been some indications that that could in fact be the case.
Q Very briefly, why would the Iranians be supporting Sunni groups?
GEN. ODIERNO: I think it’s mainly because they want to continue to create chaos in Iraq. They do not want this government potentially to succeed. But additionally, I think they want to try to tie down coalition forces here. And it’s clear that they are attempting to affect what’s going on inside of Iraq on a daily basis, and we have to be very aware of that, and we will continue to be aware of that and work it.
Makes you think about the timeless idiom: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
Can someone please freaking tell me how this new-fangled “EFP” concept is any different from the shaped charge warhead of an RPG — or for that matter — the PanzerShrek or PanzerFaust from 60 years ago??????
I just don’t get how the 120 year old ‘Monroe Effect’ and related ‘Miznay-Shardin effect’ concepts now, all-of-a-sudden, “could only come from Iran”.
I mean, if little old schmuck me knows this, you think any damn insurgent bomb maker worth his weight in sand doesn’t know about this??? It’s common knowledge, for cripes sake.
It’s the same damn thing that makes a little RPG able to penetrate 16+ inches of rolled steel.
But hey, if you want to play along and blame it all on Iran, that’s fine and dandy — but just don’t get your propaganda and your facts mixed up in your OWN damn head… or else you’ll end up like our clueless President.
Thank you and have a nice day.
JAFO,
No one’s saying EFPs are any different in principle than the other weapons you cite.
re:Molten Death, Up Close and Personal
I believe that we should return any weapons made in Iran and found in Iraq back to Iran. Maybe there is an under funded group in Iran that could use them to topple the current government.
If I’m not mistaken, the whole “These come from Iran” schtick is supposed to point to a need to get militarily involved with Iran, neh?
Maybe it’s just me, but if the provenance of a weapon indicated a need to get “involved” with the builder, wouldn’t half the world be declaring war on the US or Russia (not to mention a couple of dozen other arms-building nations) right about now?
The Iranians aren’t stupid; destabilizing Iraq is just fine with them, and if they can make a few bucks in the process, of course they’ll do so.
JAFO Breklor Grandjester
You guys don’t understand the difference between homemade weapons and assembled at home weapons. The copper head is the trick (you can’t just melt a ball of pennies Jester or just beat one out on a sheet metal thumper either) this thing has to be millimeter perfect in both thickness, shape, size, and consistency. You mess any of these up and you lose effectiveness.
I can assemble a computer from parts hell even attach all the parts to a homemade case & body. But I cannot manufacture a processor in my garage. The concept may seem simple hunk of silicone ect
I don’t why it’s a surprise that Iranian weapons are ending up in Iraq and now apparently Afghanistan. Elements in Iran are certainly concerned that their country is nearly surrounded by coalition forces and are doing the same thing the US would do if Canada and Mexico were held by a hostile power–sneak in weapons to clandestinely support the insurgents.
The big question for me, is whether Saudi Arabia has started sneaking in weapons(or cash) to support the Sunni insurgents. It would be in SA’s interest to strengthen the Sunnis in Iraq as a counterbalance to both the Shia government and Iran. Hopefully, someone is looking into that quesiton.
C-low, the copper discs shown at the “off the record” briefing were definately NOT precision milled to the MM, look at the pics above, these are not pro efps they don’t need to be, we’re not talking about knocking out MBTs And I don’t discount that Iranian weapons end up in Sunni hands, but if Muktar Al Sadr is the Iranians best bud, supposedly vacationing there recently, why arm his enemies? So they are arming both sides? So are we.
I don’t recall mentioning Bush. I find complaining about Bush these days is like complaining to Ronald McDonald when you get a bad hamburger. Neither one is really running the operation.
No Christian, no one is SAYING it
Jester
The Sunni Radicals and the Sadr Mehdi army are not enemies. The two sects may have bad blood but they are not enemies, are not combating each other, and have in recent history even worked together as open admitted allies. In 04′ Falluja 1 (ohh how memories are short or is it selective memory or other) both the Sunni’s in Anbar and the Mehdi Army in the South Karbala ect…joined and coordinated as ONE to sweep the US out of Iraq.
Now back to the so called civil war between the sects idea is BS what we have is the Radicals fighting the Moderates. The Sunni and Shia radicals are not going after each others leadership or confronting head on each others warriors like a true civil war. You think the Shia & Sunni Radicals don
Posted by: C-Low at April 18, 2007 12:53 PM
Sorry, C-Low — No time for poltical games today… and your silly, made-up acronyms don’t really do anything for me either, actually.
but whatever floats your boat, I suppose. If your labels and made up acronyms help you see things better in black and white, then all the color in the world isn’t going to change your conclusions.
Later
JAFO
Ahhh I see you are of the
What?
Sure, sure… Yeah, that’s it… OK.
“American officials are unanimous in their belief that this weapon comes from Iran. If so, I don
All the political hoopla aside
Have to say I agree with sglover.
and Grandjester has been ‘spot-on’ all day
(I got a laugh out of your MickeyD’s joke too, btw …guess that’s where the ‘jester’ part comes in
C-Low, you are aware that America tends to support those strongmen who ‘blame everything on the west’, are you not? House of Saud springs to mind, though that’s simply the most egregious example.
Perhaps more to the point, the populaces ruled by the strongmen are most definitely aware of this.
I don’t see how invading Iraq while maintaing support for folks from the Saudis to Musharraf to the Egyptians is doing something new. It seems to me, actually, to fit your definition of insanity. Sure, the invading Iraq part is new. The backing oppressive regimes part, now, that’s rather old.
The only reason to cite Iran is to justify sanctions or military action. Sanctions will fail, and military action gets the US nothing. I am pretty sure Iran’s SOF backfilled the US after the intial invasion back in 2003. That was smart move by them. Any country with a brain would do the same thing.
It’s pretty clear that Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria, Jordan, and Turkey, are all doing what is in their best interests (which may not be the US or Iraq’s interest). It is hard to tell what are the official positions of any of these Governments. They all know the US is on the way out, and they are left with the mess.
A Sunni, Shia, Kurdish, and US proxy war is going on Iraq. It is too simple to only blame Iran for our problems in Iraq or Afghanistan. The Iraqis are looking for protection and the US has never been able to supply it, so they turn to others.
Thank you JAFO, I’ll be here all week, try the veal.
Whether the Left win the argument and we run from the field in Iraq or whether the Right wins and we stay to finish. Either way it does not matter the war will not end, we were attacked multiple times each getting worse than before up and until 9–11. On 9–11 the majority of Americans decided we couldn
C-Low, that’s a false dichotomy. Do you truly not see the problematic nature of your post?
Incidentally, what are these terms of surrender we’d be accepting by leaving Iraq? Inquiring minds want to know.
If we leave, will we have to make Al-Sadr governor of Massachussets or somefink?
Jester
We can argue until the cows come home over past choices of battlefield and this or that tactic or decision. It will make no difference. When making decisions about what to do now or were to go from here we must look at the table as it is today.
My case on the EFP
Max
What exactley is false?
As far as terms of surrender the Radicals have not been bashfull go read the early works of Bin Laden the 90’s stuff were he lays out his damands.
US out of Muslim lands (that includes Israel out of Israel and NO western influence at all TV Radio ect.. surrender of Chechnya, Balkans, I imagine not stated but at some point Andullah will come up it did in later speeches during the Spain bombings. Basicly their demands are a automatic retreat from all current or past muslim lands. Oh and did I mention recognition of the Umma and Sharia law world wide. $) I find that part funny becuase those who are most stuanch against the war are the very ones who will suffer most from this part.
Look it up Bin Laden or other racical Islamist speeches. How can you guys expect to make intellegent thoughts about a enemy whos written works you have not even read? Swing by
http://www.memritv.org/
not to see Bin laden or such but to just get a idea of what everyday propoganda the regular Muslim commoner has to grow up with under our great system of strongmen. The Strongmen stand on cards and must deflect the daily anger off to outside ghost enemies like the West, EU, colonials, JoOoo’s ect… Lovely system.
Low out
American weapons turn up all over the world killing people but you don;t care. When a iranian weapon (if you could actually start to believe an American report after the alleged WMD crap)is alleged to have been used to kill an American, then everyone is expected to get really upset at those nasty Iranians!. Good grief, get a life. You guys are very good at dishing it out, but you can’t take it.
I think that if after fours years, no-one in the E-n-t-i-r-e nation of Iraq posseses the equipments and technical knowledge to machine up semi-conical coppers disk of a specified thickness, then wer really have truly NOT rebuilt thier infastructure.
I mean, a copper conicle disc. You could go into a high-school shop class and have the kids make you some of them. If no one their posses the machining for something as simple as that, how are we to expect them to sustain themselves at anything, much less become an industrialised nation?
Oh wait, nevermind.
It would seem highly unlikely that Iranian weapons will not turn up in theatres of war next door to them– attributing their distribution to the Iranian Government is another thing.
VERY unlikely that Shiite Iranian will be directly supplying Sunni forces who consider Shiites heretics. MUCH more likely this is simply another excuse for the US government to try and provoke a war with Iran.
And let’s not forget who has invaded and occupied and effectively destroyed several Middle East countries over the past 5 years; and it ain’t Iran!
A little bit of rational thinking by US citizens would be helpful to all..
“We know where these weapons are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and north, south, east and west somewhat.”
JAFO — I refer you to my previous post on EFPs and how they differ from shaped charges; basically they’re big and slow rather than narrow and extremely fast. The design and effects are quite different.
I would be very interested to see what evidence actually links these to Iran, and whether anyone thinkls it’s connected with the Iranian government.
US cluster bombs were used in the Lebanon, that doesn’t mean the US approved their use.
PS contrary to the headline, EFPs are not molten. The high pressure causes the EFP to flow as if molten during formation, but it remains solid.
Here is John Robb at Global Guerrillas and the source article he is citing talking about Iraq’s home-grown IED industry, EFPs being used by both Sunnis and Shiites and that these are being manufactured in Iraq is at least evidenced to some degree otherwise there would be no such debate in the intel community.
Interestingly he thanks Defensetech for pointing him to this info:
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/02/journal_more_in.html
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/mh/dti0206/index.php?startpage=30
Here are some recent stories contradicting the claim that these cannot be manufactured in Iraq or without Iranian components…
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002629.php
http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007–04-07T070830Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-293355–4.xml
The copper slug in that picture certainly doesn’t look “millimetre perfect”. I guess that’s kind of beside the point though when the content tells you it was manufactured in Iraq from non-Iranian parts.
You can make accusations about political bias all you like but the fact is you either reported such revelations about military technology in Iraq, which has been such a hot topic with enormous policy implications on your DefeseTech blog, or you didn’t.
C-low, NOW we are supposed to read the PAST writings of Osama Bin Hidin? Didn’t our CinC say he wasn’t important, didn’t think about him? I thought the past didn’t enter into your equation “When making decisions about what to do now or were to go from here we must look at the table as it is today.“
Look son, you’re jest outta your league here, looks like we got ya about 20 to 1 on this thing, perhaps you should return to Red State or Little Green Footballs where this sort of thing plays.
“C-low. You seem hung up on this left/right thing and making connections that are dubious at best and btw have nothing to do with this thread. Which is about efps and whether or not they are of Iranian origin. Iraq did not attack us on 9–11, nor did Iran.“
–Grandjester
Couldn’t have said it better myself. You are really off on an ideological tangent, C-Low. Your “facts” are all over the place, conclusions all mixed up… and you just conveniently leave out anything that doesn’t fit in with your already (mal)formed grand conclusion.
For what it’s worth, I am neither “Right” nor “Left” (whatever the hell that even means anymore). If you choose to see everything in black and white, you will always miss the real picture. I don’t want to engage in a flame war with you on this blog, either. I’m strictly speaking tactically and strategically… and the facts still remain:
EFP’s are easy to make for any bombmaker worth his weight in fish sauce.
EFP’s are nothing new or high tech — and terrorists have also been using them for some time now.
We have very little leverage to deal with Iran now, as we are in a precarious position now with our forced stretched out in Iraq.
Short of nuking Iran off the map, any attack would only be a grave mistake and put all of our forces in grave peril right now.
all of my assertions have been right in line with what the VAST MAJORITY of Generals/military experts are saying — and have said.
Unfortunately, the Politicians in charge have constantly ignored — over and over again — the advice of the Generals and Chiefs of Staff, and officers on the ground. When Casey and Abizaid said the surge was not the right course, they were fired (oh, that’s right, “promoted”) just like Shinseki — and all the rest who dared to speak the truth.
Isntead of listening to politicians, pundits and radio talk show hosts, you’d be better served listening to the Generals and Military folks who have seen this coming the whole time.
Sorry I don’t have time to go back and forth with you today…
Later
C-Low, you provided two options, one of which is, essentially, what we’re doing now, the other of which is surrender. You claimed those were the only two options. That is false. It is a forced binary choice, of the sort we see all the damn time in American political discourse. The only purpose they serve is to polarize the political process and electorate. That is to say, they are destructive, and hinder intelligent policy making. When sound bytes replace discussion, the nation suffers.
To be clear ‘Both sides’ (there’s another one!) of the fence do this.
Intersting take on the al-Qaida “Master Plan” and how we are playing into it. The parallels to the Soviet collapse are striking (IMHO there are quite a few parallels to the British experiance at the end of the colonial period as well).
http://www.alternet.org/stories/47703/
Since this is a from “leftie” site, I would expect C-low, OBL master plan intepreter supreme, to discount it utterly.
Max
I would like to hear the 3rd fence option. When you are attacked you do not have the privilege to choose when the attack stops your only option is fight until attacker is dead/subdued or surrender and hope for mercy.
Jester
I read the article and don’t really disagree with it just its conclusions. I don’t think their is a war in history were the death, cost, damage was less prior to engagement than during the engagement. Although I don’t see how that would say the enemy is winning since death, cost, damage has gone up since we engaged. I also don’t recognize how its Bush’s fault we have to go to war? When Clinton was prez we were attacked multiple times aswell and if not for sheer luck the 93′ WT, millennium, and Muhamad Philippine plans would have had death tolls at least equal to the 3k of 9–11 (and I don’t think any US prez could allow a enemy kill thousands of US citizens without going to war).
Bottom line I think if Gore would have been prez we would have still invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq. I don’t know if you guys realize it but Blair’s Labor is the British equal of the US Democratic Party. Hind sight is 20/20 immediately following 9–11 Afghanistan and Iraq were both seen as imminent threats. Afghanistan due to Bin Laden training camps, Iraq due to Saddam WMD worldwide suspicion of, Saddam support of Suicide Bombers in Israel, Saddams glorification in speech and murals of 9–11. What the evidence looks like now is useless to a decision made immediately following 9–11.
If you doubt the fact a Democratic president looking at 3k dead US civilians in a 9–11 level event would not have gone after Saddam, explain the Congressional Vote 2003?
Nobody can travel in time or see the future. We are all humans we make decisions on the Intel of the moment. Their is no guarantees in life.
You cannot just criticize someone
C-low, now you are just contradicting yourself. Replace your strongman with moderate govt? Get real. Every indicator in Iraq is that we (the invader/occupier) are the hated party.
Is all out war across the ME the only option? If so why did we go into Iraq half assed? Your arguments just don’t make sense.
“It is not just copper disc“
– but let’s just get this copper disc issue sorted first, shall we?
Have we seen any serious evidence that these are in any way linked to the Iranian government?
We seem to get a blizzard of these allegations that blow up and then melt when they come under scrutiny (remember those sniper rifles?). But gullible people are left with the impression that there must be something behind them.
Remember anyone Rambo III? He was going to Avghanistan to help talibans to fight against russians. Same talibans to whom US Army gave stingers to destroy russians helicopters…And then no one speak about that, but now, when roles are reversed game is not so well accepted by the Americans…As Metalica says in one of it’s songs …“Sad but true”
efp