Well it looks like the first spasm of Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle orders has been launched, with the Pentagon inking a get this — $481 million contract for 1,000 vehicles this week.
Thats a half a billion dollars for 300 of the 15-ton Cougar Cat-1 (MRAP-MRUV) vehicles and 700 of the 16-ton Cat-2 (MRAP-JEERV) behemoths — all going to Force Protection Industries, Inc.
Excuse me for being the skunk at the picnic, but Im skeptical of the value of these purchases.
The MRAP is not a tactical vehicle. It is a specialized armored truck designed primarily for protecting EOD units and their gear from explosions while diffusing bombs or mines. The Marine Corps top gear buyer, Brig. Gen. Mike Brogan, admitted last month the MRAP was viewed by the Corps as a boutique vehicle for certain specialties. They asked for a limited quantity of these vehicles in the 2008 budget and 2007 wartime funding request based on that view.
Then what happened? You guessed it, Congress stepped in. After browbeating every service and DoD official they could over the meager number of MRAPs in the budget, Army and Marine officials snapped to and revamped their request to satisfy lawmakers new infatuation.
Remember again: the MRAPs are not tactical vehicles. Of course, neither is a Humvee (it was designed as a logistics vehicle), but its a lot easier to use as a tactical vehicle with current modifications than the MRAP in an urban counterinsurgency. The giant, heavy MRAP vehicle is ill-suited to the urban fight. You might as well drive around the city in a Bradley fighting vehicle.
I know Ill probably get a lot of crap for this, but I think the services recognize that the MRAP isn’t what they need but theyre responding to the congressional love affair with the vehicle because they have to. The push is forcing the services to buy MRAPs from nine different manufacturers, and though military officials insist theyre all similar mechanically, you know there are going to be widgets and nick-knacks that are different, requiring their own logistics chain.
And what will the Army and Marine Corps do with these vehicles after U.S. involvement in Iraq is drawn down, which no matter how you look at it is inevitable soon? The services are spending millions on the development of a new version of the Humvee that answers a lot of the shortfalls found in the 1980s-era vehicle, including a blast-deflecting underbody and gas-hybrid engines. But with thousands of MRAP vehicles sitting in motor pools around the country, it may be difficult to justify spending money on an improved Humvee.
My last problem with the MRAP is that its too big and intimidating. Fielding a vehicle that troops are supposed to travel in every time they go outside the wire that looks like it will crush you if you even look at it doesnt seem to me to be a good way to win hearts and minds, and makes it difficult to interact with a population youre trying to win over. At least in a Humvee youre a ground level and can quickly jump out to pass a few soccer balls to the kids. Not so in the Cougar, which is so far off the ground and has such thick windows, its as if theres no human in the thing at all.
What would Gen. Petraeus say if he were asked his honest opinion of the MRAP infatuation? Does it serve his counterinsurgency plan at all?
(Gouge: DID)
Umm, the problem I have with this article is that the picture at the top of the page is not a MRAP vehicle. It is in fact a BAE Systems RG-31 Mine Protected APC. Take one for a test drive with the guys in Iraq or Afghanistan, they could show you how well the vehicle performs on a day to day basis in the Iraqi/Afghani versions of Mayberry. Maybe you should take a spin through Bagdad in one of those cute Chrysler Seabring convertibles that JMD suggested for you earlier?
Putting a picture of a vehicle blown to shit and then trying to pass it off as a completely different vehicle, I mean if you couldn’t find a picture of a MRAP severly damaged or one that has been blown up to the point where some one has died, well then your report is already bogus, no evidence no story…period.
P.S. Google.com is a very good search engine, used by reporters and well everyone that has access to the internet. Be a real reporter and do the research before sticking your head in your ass, if you can’t get the facts right, look for a new job.
I’ve lost dozens of Soldiers to IEDs in Iraq over the past 4 years. Some of them have been in Bradley’s, some in M998’s with “gypsy” armor, and some in M1114’s.
Your article contains very little fact. I DO agree that lawmakers have a poor understanding of the needs of the military, and their interests are not always motivated by providing for the wellfare of Soldiers and Marines. However, the current Humvee’s with the additional armor kits being put on are simply overtaxed and have hit their culmination point. It is definitely time for another vehicle.
Even if it is a “loggy” vehicle, American servicemen are resourceful enough to tailor it to their needs. The appearance of strength is a good thing in a war. The enemy is supposed to be afraid of you.
The major draw back to these is that they are taller and just as noisy as Humvees. Hopefully, they are less maintenance intensive and can off road just as well (before we slapped on all of the extra armor).
I was in the Marine Corps for 4 years, back in the mid seventies. The Humvee was essentially the replacement vehicle to the old jeep, so in essence its just a jeep. It may be a better jeep, I’m not sure as I’ve never ridden in a Humvee, but its still basically a just a JEEP. When I imagine riding around in Bagdad in a jeep I get cold chills. Jeeps or Humvees were never designed for the kinds of problems we are encountering in Iraq. What is needed is an MRAP type of vehicle that is designed from the ground up as that sort of general purpose armored vehicle. My opinion is that we replace every Humvee in Iraq and Afganistan with an MRAP, and bring all those Humvees back to the States, and never again send Humvee’s into battle zones where they dont belong. I’ve actually seen an MRAP up close and walked around it and looked inside. Beleive me, if any of you could look at both vehicles side by side, you would choose the MRAP to go riding around in. Is it big? Yes, its about as big as a 6x6. Is it’s size a problem? Not for me! One poster here said that you can’t solve problems by throwing money at them — WRONG. Throwing money at problems gets problems fixed. Did I agree with invading Iraq? NO way, but that’s not the issue now. We’ve dug a hole for ourselves and we can’t simply walk away from this. What we can do is make the most out of this bad situation and give our people over there adequate protection. We have the Manufacturing power here in America to solve this problem, and that’s what we are good at doing. I think it would be a real riot to have some idiot terrorist shooting at me inside an MRAP while I calmly call for close air on his soon to be vaporized ass. Imagine the joy as I’m giving him the finger and waving bye bye.
0311 — Semper Fi
You fukin supremacists sure love your wars and hate the Constitution you are all traitors. Iraq was a mistake made worse by morons like chimp, chaynay and dumbsfeld.
You fukin supremacists sure love your wars and hate the Constitution you are all traitors. Iraq was a mistake made worse by morons like chimp, chaynay and dumbsfeld.
Warfare is ever changing, morphing beyond anyones total control. Their are tens of thousands of vehicles in the motor pools that cost billions of dollars that are no longer useful in todays fighting enviroment. The perfect urban assault vehicle will never be developed, because it is the perfect target in a confined or predictable space. It can be defeated by simple low tech technology, by a very cunning and ever changing tactical foe, who is being supplied by major (Iran, Syria) supporters with very little restrictions on thier abiltiy to supply such ordanance to our enemys. MRAP’s will save lives in Iraq, so this is why I think they must be deployed to our troops. They will at least drop the causualty rate for low end explosive devices that are fatal to the current Hummers. I guess this is a short term moral investment, certainly not a fiscal one. These vehicles will probably be in the motor pool after this war is over, but if they save 200 or 300 of our servicemans lives over the next two years, I say .—-send em.
Warfare is ever changing, morphing beyond anyones total control. Their are tens of thousands of vehicles in the motor pools that cost billions of dollars that are no longer useful in todays fighting enviroment. The perfect urban assault vehicle will never be developed, because it is the perfect target in a confined or predictable space. It can be defeated by simple low tech technology, by a very cunning and ever changing tactical foe, who is being supplied by major (Iran, Syria) supporters with very little restrictions on thier abiltiy to supply such ordanance to our enemys. MRAP’s will save lives in Iraq, so this is why I think they must be deployed to our troops. They will at least drop the causualty rate for low end explosive devices that are fatal to the current Hummers. I guess this is a short term moral investment, certainly not a fiscal one. These vehicles will probably be in the motor pool after this war is over, but if they save 200 or 300 of our servicemans lives over the next two years, I say .—-send em.
Warfare is ever changing, morphing beyond anyones total control. Their are tens of thousands of vehicles in the motor pools that cost billions of dollars that are no longer useful in todays fighting enviroment. The perfect urban assault vehicle will never be developed, because it is the perfect target in a confined or predictable space. It can be defeated by simple low tech technology, by a very cunning and ever changing tactical foe, who is being supplied by major (Iran, Syria) supporters with very little restrictions on thier abiltiy to supply such ordanance to our enemys. MRAP’s will save lives in Iraq, so this is why I think they must be deployed to our troops. They will at least drop the causualty rate for low end explosive devices that are fatal to the current Hummers. I guess this is a short term moral investment, certainly not a fiscal one. These vehicles will probably be in the motor pool after this war is over, but if they save 200 or 300 of our servicemans lives over the next two years, I say .—-send em.
The MRAP is a piece of shit. Why? It cannot stand up to an EFP and we’re gonna pull out of iraq before they can be sent to our troops. It’s a waste of money and time.
If you do not think the MRAP is worth the money, come take a ride with me in a HMMVW (Humvee) on some dirt roads in Iraq. Before you people talk smack about how much they cost, keep in mind that the U.S. has misplaced Billions of Dollars for Reconstruction. But no one is complaining about that anymore. If you never had an IED explode under your vehicle in Iraq or Afghanistan, then stay in your lane we will stay out of yours. No amount of money is worth a single US Soldiers Life.
So what do you suggest , intead of the MRAP??? improved humves still in the lab???or rather on the drawing table??while our troops continue to die when we know we could have saved them???
Listen christian, a man like yoou will never have the guts to serve in Iraq and im glad.stay in your shoes.
First, the main competitor in the MRAP competition is the International Maxxpro. its based on a proven truck chassis and can also have an uparmored underbelly added at any time.
the engine and chassis are used every day in commercial vehicles all over the country and are not some one off military pieces. this truck is serviced easily and can withstand brutal punishment. the armor plating is the best currently available.
they cost the US about $550,000. thats alot but far less than the millions a plane costs.
Id rather be in a Maxxpro than any other MRPA vehicle Ive seen.
The U.S. military spends billions on technology that will potentially take lives. What is the problem with billions being spent to save lives?
MRAP is not a fix all and the future of the vehicle is potentially limited to this theater. But tell me of a war we have fought in which technology was not developed for the conflict at hand. MRAP is a theater specific asset. But for all of the things that MRAP is not, it is a proven life saver.
MRAP is a high visibility program and you can bet that the enemy is taking note. The advertisement of MRAP as an “indestructible” vehicle will certainly make it a target and the enemy will do his best to show he can defeat this asset.
However, he continues to forget one very important fact and that is that the American Soldiers, Sailors and Airman that will be behind the wheel of these vehicles will not be defeated.
So, for all of the nay sayers and defeatist who say MRAP is not worth the dollars we will spend, answer me this– What is the cost of one life lost in Iraq and is it greater or less than the cost of one MRAP?
Hello All, working in ballistics is a tricky business. (and that applies to EOD as well), anyone skilled in the art will tell you “its about the variables!”, if A happens, then it changes how B will act/react, thus C is changed from event to event.
everything has an “achilles heel”… I, at this moment, and Im a member of several “anti hypervelocity organizations” and must say, i may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but have devised a way to truly protect our Soldiers from side Det. IEDs, I will be making some presentations at the Joint Urban Ops Conf. on Sept 26–28, Now onto the bottom “boat hull V” like defenitely “deflects” kinetics and/or detonation waves. Its a difficult posit.
However, bottom line, from “the bottom portion” component of these armored vehicles, I gotta say that its up to the “little inventor fella’s” to come up with a way to solve the problem. The tenants of ballistics are either A)deflect (which I prefer for the most part) or B)meet force with force. (Anyone remember the “tiger tank” of the Germans? well, it was a super peice of equipment except when it pulled up to the gas station
However, most incidents are not from beneath the vehicle, the come from the IED’s on the sides of roads, etc.….…..
Well, its all about Velocity, Distance and Time.
If looking friendly was completing the mission, you would think IED attacks would stop. Apparently you have not lost a friend or loved one to an IED attack. The armor on the bottom of the HMMWV is flat and does not deflect shrapnel very well unlike the MRAP with its V shaped under armor.
Mission accomplishment first, troop welfare always. It’s more imortant to keep our troops safe. The civillians will understand that we are just trying to keep the troops safe.
If the MRAPs cost 1/2 million to one million each
why does the defense department want 1 and 1/2 milloin in the budget for them? Wonder where that 1/2 mill or so is going? times 7,000.
Im not sure whats the matter with you. What do you care more of? Lives protecting the U.S. or spending money? I dont know what you would say but id pick lives. listen here, the cougar is probably the safest thing to drive in Iraq. The M1 is even getting blown once in a while. I agree with everybody but you. The cougar is worth the money. Now i cant wait until the Golan comes out and shows everything up. this is my criteria: these are the nessesary vehicals… the M1 abrams, the Bradley APC, and once it comes out the Golan, the buffalo, the stryker-maybe,. and i think thats it. Scratch humvees form all lists.they are too unsafe.and uncool. please reply anybody.
Im not sure whats the matter with you. What do you care more of? Lives protecting the U.S. or spending money? I dont know what you would say but id pick lives. listen here, the cougar is probably the safest thing to drive in Iraq. The M1 is even getting blown once in a while. I agree with everybody but you. The cougar is worth the money. Now i cant wait until the Golan comes out and shows everything up. this is my criteria: these are the nessesary vehicals… the M1 abrams, the Bradley APC, and once it comes out the Golan, the buffalo, the stryker-maybe,. and i think thats it. Scratch humvees form all lists.they are too unsafe.and uncool. please reply anybody.
I am Iraqi-American serving in Iraq as an engineer advisor.These vehicles look beat up but they protect the occupants and save lives.To me the choice is clear,every life is precious and worth saving, but if you want to play the math/money game ‚let me educate you in simple math/English. The MRAP cost $500,000, each, the airline pay from 1 million to 2 million for each life lost in an airplane crash.You do the math 4 soliders per HUMVEE at a 1 million a person, that is 4 million dollar?! a savings of 3.5 million dollars?!any questions?.
We need to protect the guys on the ground. Humvee wasn’t designed for this type of combat and the MRAP may not be perfect but it beats the hell out of the Humvee. What I want to know is why it costs so much. The South Africans were building basicly the same thing back in the 70’s for a hell of alot less, even allowing for inflation. So who’s getting rich!!!!
this message is to ‘ed’. you call the hummer “uncool”. what are you, 12? give it a rest. you know i think that it is really cool that you know all of those names. now how about getting a job and moving out of your mom’s basement?
I’m a PSYOPer in Theater right now. In discussions about getting the MRAPS, not once did fear of intimidating the Iraqis come up as a viable issue, and “Hearts and Minds” is our job through and through.
EOD likes it for their job, and PSYOP has no problem winning hearts and minds from the top of one of these…
granted.…we’ll have to find a new place to mount our speakers…
Dear Mr. Lowe,
The MRAP was never designed to be a tactical weapon. It isn’t even suppossed to contend with the humvee. It is a troop transport, giving counter-insurgents the ability to isolate and contain areas that can contain enemy operatives.
“My last problem with the MRAP is that it
One buys the best equipment for your troops. The army itself will indicate if it feels it has enough MRAPs. The v-shaped bottom technologies can be extended to other vehicles that might face IEDs — as the development of an IED resistant / MRAP ambulance has shown.
As a Soldier getting ready to go back to Iraq for a 3rd time, of course I would have a “love affair” like Congress with a vehicle that might save my life. But lets look at it form a different position like some do on the fact of money and use of this vehicle afterward. I saw recent photos of an MRAP that took a 500 pounder. Had that been a HMMVW or even a Stryker or a Bradley the result would have been dead soldiers costing you dear taxpayers a half million per dead Soldier. With 6 people in the vehicle that would have been over 3 million in life insurance and death gratuity payments. How much did it cost to make it and ship it? Around a 1 million? It looks like we are money ahead even if it was destroyed. We spend another million and get another one and we still saved a million. If you add the cost of caring for severally injured the cost escalates higher. In the long run the vehicle is worth its weight in gold, not only to me but to you taxpayers as well. I don
As an Army Infantry officer, I can tell you that these vehicles are a godsend. I’m not sure what your ramblings about a “tactical vehicle” mean. Have you ever served in the infantry in combat? It sure doesn’t sound like it!
Rocket grenades go thru armored vehicles. Ask Israeli vets of the Sinai.
Armored vehicles are so highly strategic that they stopped the Russians from losing in Afghanistan. Right?
Having just returned from Iraq’s Al Anbar province, I know first hand of the JEERVs and they are worth every penny. I have seen pictures of the vehicle after a 400 pound HME bomb blew up underneath it. Sadly, the gunner was killed from the vehicle rolling over and he was thrown out. The rest of the crew had a few bumps and bruises, but they made it. The Hummer served it’s purpose in the first Gulf War, but the times have changed and the JEERV/MRAPs are the way to go.
Mike, I am a Marine infantry officer, and I have used the MRAP in operations in Iraq. It is a piss-poor infantry fighting vehicle. After a few weeks we were glad to get a Humvee again, so we could operate off-road as necessary. Christian’s article, from my perspective, is spot-on.
Great, you go on passing soccer balls out your Hummer. What about the 12–16 guys in the 2 MRAPs yesterday that gor pounded by IEDs and walked away? I can pretty well guess 3 or more of them would be KIA and 3 or more would be seriously injured. Besides the anguish to the families, how much is it going to cost to bury 3 and provide maybe round the clock care for the others? These things are paying for themselves. As far as manueverability you have to walk befor you crawl. There should be a smaller, more agile MRAP coming out soon that would be more suitable to the marines i think. But demanding such protection if available exemplifies leadership.
I think what the author was saying is while the MRAP is a very capable vehicle for what is designed for its not the end all of armored vehicles. The Army & Marines only need X amount of the MRAP’s, they still need humvees, bradleys etc. As for all the flamers…try reading the article & actually comprehending what is stated
i don’t guess there was ever a piece of equipment fielded that was exactly what one hoped for. but i would say, if it gets you there in one piece what does it matter what the damn thing costs? certainly the writer made some very valid points.but lets remember regardless of the reasoning for the war, i believe all would aggree that if the damn thing had been prosecuted in the correct manner we probably wouldn’t even need a mrap vehichle in the first place.so why would anyone think that the same incompetent leaders would have the forsight?? to request development of a tactical vehicle tailored to urban warfare in an ied enviroment.
My son is in Iraq right now and he is suppose to get a MRAP soon. Who cares if they are intimidating, MRAP’s save lives. My son is worth more than $1million dollars to me and I am sure everyone that has a loved one in Iraq would agree. With all the money that is spent for this war, who cares how much money is spent on MRAP’s as long as it saves lives, its worth it.
“Hasn’t the never-ending conflict in Israel… taught you anything about this type of war?“
Yes, it’s taught that making bigger vehicles makes the opponents build bigger bombs. Technology like this will never win a guerilla war. You could have people driving around in goddamn tanks and it wouldn’t help. The key to winning a guerilla war is to make it so there is no reason to fight one. Nothing you can do militarily — short of literally blowing up every town with people in it — will end the fighting.
You are fighting co-in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan right now; you are very likely to fight more co-in wars in the near future (regardless of withdrawal from Iraq). That means you need MRAP for all your vehicle functions outside protected bases, whether you like it or not.
Of course MRAP vehicles are not proof against all IEDs — but they massively decrease your casualties. Also, if the insurgents try to deploy bigger IEDs to combat the MRAP, it costs them heavily in resources, time, logistics and signature.
In Afghanistan, we Aussies and the Dutch use the Bushmaster — highly mine resistant, light, capable of going anywhere. And they do not intimidate the locals. The Bushmaster is a Co-in warwinner.
The South Africans have made all their tanks, ambulances, reconnaissance vehicles and other land vehicles IED proof by just sacrificing a little armor at the front and back and incorporating the V shaped hulls. This has given a lot of protection for just a small modification. I expect other companies to take note of that and to try to incorporate it in their army designs too…
Yes, the MRAP is a specific piece of equipment made for a specific task. That task is to survive an IED strike. The maintenance yard here in Sharana, Afghanistan has several MRAPs that have pieces blown off, doors broken, and even a turret thrown off. In every case, everybody survived. These MRAPs can be repaired and sent back to the line, HMMWVs in the same situations would be a pile of scrap metal. If these guys were in HMMWVs, we would have been burying most of them. The MRAP design has two advantages over HMMWVs– height (above ground, and the blast) and shape (hull deflects, not absorbs the IED blast). And don’t even get me started on how overweight the armored HMMWVs are. Plus, the MRAPS have more room in them for equipment and personnel. Riding around in a HMMWV is like being in a tuna can. The MRAP turret is higher, so you get better fields of fire, especially over the walls that line many roads. The MRAP is not perfect– there are first production run defects(generators, pulleys, track bar) and the weight (17+ tons)is a problem. Final answer– ask the soldiers here what they would prefer to be in. They know firsthand what others can only write about.
If you think you’re going to ride to work in an urban war zone, that’s the first problem.
The second probelm is investing in a fleet of vehicles and their maintainance which the insurgents will quickly adapt to, defeat, and impose another round of super-vehicle funding:yeah,I think we’re playing right into Ossama’s hands with fiscal self-destruction.
Read about the Boer War, Napoleon in the Penninsula,NVA,Mao, Che, Mujihedeen, Aguinildo, and ask yourself, “How has the guerilla changed over the centuries?” Not much! And what’s been successful in defeating them? Same sort of thinking, in which high tech fire and maneuvre plays an important, but really, small role: much smaller than in conventional warfare, and, may even be detrimental to counter-insurgency. Insurgents fight on the cheap and count on persitance vs set piece battle field victories. In terms of that, who do you think is really winning?
My husband and six of his fellow soldiers owe their lives to the MRAP that they were in. Yesterday night they hit a +200 lb IED in Afghanistan. They all walked away. This vehicle saves lives. Anyone who disagrees obviously doesn’t value the caliber of lives that are using them.
More choppers dude, keep ‘em coming. You wanna stay off the roads? Fly over them. Clear, hold and then send vehicles. Just off the top of my head…which is not always firing on all pistons. Pls exuse me, and bare w/ me…thanx