During a Pentagon briefing yesterday, the Joint Chiefs head of regional operations, BGEN Perry Wiggins, deconstructed a recent operation to take out Taliban fighters hiding among children.
The explanation comes as the military takes fire from the Afghan government on civilians killed in the crossfire between coalition troops and Talib holdouts.
And its also interesting to note, the detailed description of the Special Forces troops avoidance of friendly fire comes in sharp contrast to the Armys condemnation of the Marine Corps commandos who were booted from Afghanistan after their response to a roadside ambush killed civilians in the crossfire in March.
BGEN Wiggins:
I’m sure all you know, there’s been a lot of recent coverage about civilian casualties associated with the counterinsurgency operations against the Taliban. Here’s an illustration of how we actually operate against the barbaric enemy that we face in the Afghanistan theater, and shows the restraint and precision exercised by our forces with respect to the civilian populace.
On May 8th and into May 9th, a combined patrol of U.S. Special Forces and Afghan national army forces killed over 150 Taliban fighters in an engagement north of Sangin, in Helmand province of Afghan’s southern province. This enemy contact was in support of NATO’s international security force, Operations Achilles. During the fight, U.S. forces initially encountered high-capable Taliban in the Sangin valley, who pursued our units in an effort to seize an offensive advantage. Our forces repelled the initial Taliban assault and, using terrain and close air support, engaged the enemy with devastating effect.
During this engagement in Sangin, intelligence indicated there was a major or a senior Taliban commander for Helmand province at a particular target compound.
What you see here is an actual snapshot from the full-motion video asset, which was able to confirm the presence of 10 to 20 Taliban, circled in green, at this target compound.
Through the same — through the use of the same full-motion video asset, children, circled in red on the slide, were identified near the objective. Consequently, U.S. Special Forces did not engage the target compound, due to the risk of harm to civilians. This is an example of the care taken to prevent civilian casualties and mitigate risk to them amid a long and intense battle with the enemy.
It was learned after this engagement that the Taliban fighters were taking refuge among local villagers, using them as human shields. This angered the Sangin tribal leaders, who blamed the Taliban for deliberately involving civilians and bringing the fight to the area. In response, the local elders mobilized an anti-Taliban militia that reportedly killed three Taliban leaders and captured 15 Taliban fighters.
Unfortunately there are no bonus points for NOT killing civilians, you only get negative points if you do — which is causing an increasing problem with maintianing public support in Afghanistan.
Wembley, they just said that because they didn’t kill civilians and identified the terrorists, that tribal leaders took action and not only took out terrorsts, but it likely made them view Nato in a better light.
I think that pretty much is the opposite of what you said.
What bunk. I don’t see much of anything recognizable, let alone people. If you’re telling me that from pictures like these you can pick out not just people, but distinguish between combatants, civilians, children, oh yeah, and you can also tell which one is the boss? Yeah right. I call BS. If IMINT really is this good, this whole war should have been over long ago.
Dean Ob,
It’s SOP to blur images before releasing them to the public. It prevents you from knowing their resolution capabilities and, consequently, what of yours they can and can’t see. I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that the actual imagery is classifed TS for that reason. It’s one thing to know that your enemy can perform aerial surveillance; it’s another to not know whether or not he can tell what you’re doing.
What a load of unspeak that was,showing how carefull and loving troops are so as not to kill civvies, totally a PR exercise its got to be.
The American soldiers, sailor, airman and marine are the most compassionate men in the world. Are there a few bad apples…yes but for the most part, they love and protect children. You can believe what you want but these are the men who threw candy to the German kids during the Berlin airlift and adopted Vietnamese children during and after that brutal war. During WWII, they gave me candy through wire fences on Long Island before the embarked for Europe. Thank God for these brave men. God knows where they come from in time of crisis. My prayers and support go with every one of them especially those who have left their families behind. Unless you have walked in their shoes, don’t criticize even though your right to do so is being upheld by their sacrifice.
The American soldiers, sailor, airman and marine are the most compassionate men in the world. Are there a few bad apples…yes but for the most part, they love and protect children. You can believe what you want but these are the men who threw candy to the German kids during the Berlin airlift and adopted Vietnamese children during and after that brutal war. During WWII, they gave me candy through wire fences on Long Island before the embarked for Europe. Thank God for these brave men. God knows where they come from in time of crisis. My prayers and support go with every one of them especially those who have left their families behind. Unless you have walked in their shoes, don’t criticize even though your right to do so is being upheld by their sacrifice.
Yes, our intel probably has better optics than that shown but it does very little good for the average ground troops. I personally have been shot at by a chid before and find thier aim to be just as if not better than an adults, shaky nervous hand. ROE should reflect the fact that a child is not a non-combatant just because of age. My last roommate before my retirement was critically injured by a child with better aim than the one I was forced to “return fire” at. If intel was all it took to seperate them like a sheep dog than that would be great but for now all we can do is try to minimize casualties and bad press.
What the average person doesn’t understand, is that when you are hit by an ambush and/or IED (as the highly traine marine unit was) the “close-quarter” scenario characterized by very contolled and precision engagements(which these type units excell at) does not exist. I speak from personal experience. At times like this, the first priority should be to return effective overwhelming fire at the enemy with all available weapons systems in order to save the lives of the members of your unit.This is a commo sense choice, and a matter of personal survival.Due to the capabilities of the vehicle mounted crew served weapons utilized in these engagements(.50 caliber, 40mm high exposives, 7.62) and the rate of fire these systems are capable of, collateral damage is an unfortunate but all too often occurence, regardless of the level of training of the operator. If the barbaric killers who chose to engage our brave servicemembers had exercised a little more caution and common sense by not initiating an offensive operation in an area populated by innocent civilians(who they claim to be protecting the interests of), this tragedy would have been prevented.If in fact the enemy had put the word out regarding the attack prior to its initiation, the individuals who remained in the area for whatever reason were either participants or victims of their own bad judgement, somewhat like those who chose to remain in New Orleans during hurricane Katrina. If such a “public service message” was not provided, the resposibility in my opinion is shifted ENTIRELY to the terrorists.
The article, trying to applaud the SF unit, while attempting to cast fault on the USMC unit fails miserably. The SF unit had the time for target selection via photographs to decide to engage. The USMC unit was under fire in an ambush. SOP in an ambush…keep firing until you break contact! The Talaban know how sensitive our wishy-washy nation is to deaths of children, etc., so why do you think these cowards hide behind them? There is a whole new set of rules out there that we seem to have not got the memorandum on…the terrorists do not seem to have any qualms torturing, killing and maiming innocents but whgere is the outcry then?
Now lets see… You are fighting an enemy that does not respect ANY life,they beat their women, and screws their little boys and attack civilian targets. They do not care one I-ode about kids getting killed. When I was in Iraq, all the good people(allegedly good) would be off the streets when they knew the bad guys were out. So who are the people out there when then bad guys are out up to no good? Bingo! thats right, they are bad guys too. Kids being taught the islamic ka-boom way and and others that are there to see Americans die. The United States goes out of the way to NOT kill or target civilians, even at the cost of the mission and American lives. We hand out food, and water and lots of money. You know, to win the hearts and minds of the natives. Meanwhile we now have over 3000 of Americas finest killed and scores more wounded. We let bad guys go, pay them, give them their arms back, can’t attack them where they are, and don’t prevent them from coming across the borders. Enough is enough. The price of war will always be paid in blood, fight like you are allowed to win, the hearts and minds will follow when you get the bad guys out of there.
Sgt. 3/5 Marines
That’s the difference between a professional soldier and them(Taliban/AQ). However, there are no excuses when civilians are being hit a mile after an ambush..Period.
The minute that we stop looking at children for what they are, We become no better than those seeking shelter between them. Yes, they are being taught to hate us, by making the US troops. foreign invaders, kafir and infidels…but in the same token if we spare them, show compassion and keep on bombarding them with comforts..Point out to them that the koran requires it, its in the surah’s to spare the children and women, point out to the them that the taliban are not following the teaching of the Prophet. (Know your enemy,what he eats,breaths and belief.)
Just because a person can read and recite the Koran doesnt meant he/she comprehends it,any of it or fully. The twisted religious leaders take advantage of this, tells them their sick personal Islam not the real one. Most suicide bombers are failed individuals in their professional or personal lives. psycologically challenge and selected by this recruiters for those reasons and give them a way to end their personal pain,tarnish lives and earn a path to “Paradise” ( People view the world as they are,not as the world is)
Someone dead, its someone father,son,brother and husband. fertile ground for a recruiter, Just approach the family and point out the recent atrocities committed by US or alliance..Bingo! Dont give them more reasons.. During Op Just Cause(Panama), the “dignity battalion” was indoctrinate to belief that the US troops were coming to kill all who oppose the yankee imperialism. (By the mouths of the EPW’s). this is 2 hrs flight south from Miami in a democratic society) Now imagine the middle east.
There will always be casualties of war and the truth will always come out 1,2,10 years..it doesnt matter. Specially, now the age of the internet and digital realm.
Its a hard job, but you are professional,volunteer and red blooded American fighting man/woman.
From my experience in Central America in the ’80’s, in most of our engagements with guerillas, children and teens where involved actually firing at us. Of course, at 100–200 meters it was hard to tell who was firing the AK
or sniping with the Dragunov. But when we would go check the body count it was 13–16 year old kids. What most haunts me to this day was some were girls! The cowardly commanders where rarely found. However, a 13 year old with a weapon can kill you just as dead as the 40 year old seasoned professional. So I don’t care when I hear our guys killed some civies. They were probably collaborators or family of insurgents.
What we need is another Grant/Sherman/Sheridan type commander who knew that you CANT ‘win’ an occupation — whatever you call it — unless you completely render the enemies’ infrastructure incapable of sustaining resistance.
Sad but true — this conflict — and others like it — have nothing to do with achieving military success. Klowsowitz was a boob. There is nothing ‘political’ about this conflict — it’s all about economics. Is that what our fighting forces are for?
“It is well that war is so horrible, or we should grow too fond of it.” –Robert E. Lee
Apparently it isn’t horrible enough. To risk sounding heartless, I’ll point out nonetheless that, non-combatant casualties, friendly-fire incidents and sadly enough your occasional war crime; have been embedded in warfare for thousands of years. I feel that we delude ourselves, or even fall victim to the politicizing of warfare, when we react with shock upon hearing of civilian casualties.
If war isn’t seen for the scourge that it truly is, then it will ALWAYS be a means to an end for ANY and ALL political leaders. If we keep treating the dogs of war like we can control them and they’ll only destroy who we want, we’ll always be disappointed, war will always be a losing affair for us. We’d better start getting it right.
The mindless ones are so ready to kill and murder — are they also ready to die? I think not!
I can’t believe some of these comments, it’s scary enough you guys think this way but say it/write it the F down blows my mind.
So the only solution is scorched earth/kill them all let Allah sort them out?
Let’s look at a few of the doozies:
Bo — “the individuals who remained in the area for whatever reason were either participants or victims of their own bad judgement, somewhat like those who chose to remain in New Orleans during hurricane Katrina” Choose? These people cannot just jump in the SUV and go to the Motel 6, whether in NOLA or Kabul you bonehead.
Big Sarge — “The USMC unit was under fire in an ambush. SOP in an ambush…keep firing until you break contact!” So we don’t bother teaching fire disicpline to our Marines anymore? Spray and pray? What happened to one shot one kill? Chesty Puller is doing 20,000 rpms in Arlington right now.
Exspook — “What we need is another Grant/Sherman/Sheridan type commander who knew that you CANT ‘win’ an occupation — whatever you call it — unless you completely render the enemies’ infrastructure incapable of sustaining resistance.” Again with the scorched earth, goooood plan.
Fritz — “So who are the people out there when then bad guys are out up to no good? Bingo! thats right, they are bad guys too. Kids being taught the islamic ka-boom way and and others that are there to see Americans die” So there are no civilians, back to the kill ‘em all plan.
So genocide and salt the earth is the solution. Got it.
I understand the problems of seperating friends from enemy. But the enemy raises ther kids to hate and kill. Ther is no choice. If ther with the enemy they.re a target.
Imprisoned Without Trial or Charges
S. Peterson, You are totally correct and this country needs more men that think like you do. The phrase “War is hell” was coined for a reason and though it is not pleasant it is necessary if we are going to win against an insurgent enemy. We were not the ones to put the civilian populas in jeapordy, therefor we should not concern ourselves with their well being at the cost of our men and women.
Here’s a more relevent question for Americans to ask our politicians. Why are we giving insurgents better medical care than our own soldiers. I personally have been “Temporarily Medically Retired” for three years while all I needed were two outpatien surgeries and one brief inpatient. I am not stupid and know that I am only one of many(hence the length of time for the V.A. to get of their rumps). I have been trained in four MOS’s and aside from my pending surgeries am in great shape. Send me back to Iraq and let one of the newly wed seventeen year olds come home for awhile!
The problem with many of these posts is that you have the armchair warriors, who have seen too many Rambo films and then you have a lot of guys who’s opinions of this kind of war are shaped by their experiences in Vietnam.
The real problem is that we need to fight this war differently from how we actually fought it in Vietnam.
On the up side, at least we aren’t fighting it the way the British and Russians fought over there. They did the “kill em all and bully the remainders” tactics.…THE BRITISH AND RUSSIANS BOTH LOST.
All you “scorched earth” and “kill em all” guys need to take a few lessons from history. Or at least from the history of the region. No invading army has ever won in Afghanistan. NEVER. The Afghanis always repelled them.
Scorched earth does not work there. We have an entrenched enemy who has both supporters and enemies in their own people and what we need to do is to treat each operation, where civilians are in the crossfire, as a surgical strike.
You remove the cancer without killing the patient.
It shows the people there that we are not invaders, but liberators. And to be perfectly honest, I would rather build some friendships in the Middle East than make any more enemies there.
The solution is both easy and difficult.
Easy because the war needs to be fought in a manner closer to a series of counter-terrorist ops; and difficult because it requires our military to stop treating every war with the “kill flies with a sledgehammer” approach and start assessing the tactics of the enemy and adapting our own tactics to match. We always fight the last war. In the Civil War we fought with modern weapons that were ill-suited for Revolutionary war tactics. WWI we used Civil War tactics. WWII we started out using WWI tactics. Korea we used WWII tactics. Vietnam we used a mix of Korean war and adaptive tactics. The adaptive tactics worked better. Unfortunately, our military leadership doesn’t like to do that kind of thinking. They are not taught to do so.
We don’t need another Sherman over there. We need leadership which is a mix of SunTsu, Patton, and Ghandi. (I know that seems an odd mix, but you can believe that it will work)
However, I will take your suggestion and study some SunTsu, Patton, and Ghandi.
So far, I just read “The Prince”. Has far simpler, though cruel — by today’s standards — methods.
Many serving and ex
Shades of Vietman again. We also did the same to the British in 1776.
I can’t believe so many people think this way. If, in fact, the views here are representative of the average American in Iraq, we may as well pack up and go home, because we won’t win.
If you’re a soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan, you’re not fighting a war. You’re conducting ‘armed social services work’ (Kilcullen). If you are unwilling or unable to understand that, you do more harm than good. That’s not an armchair strategist talking, incidentally–that’s Petraeus and crew talking.
Posted by: The other other other Max at May 22, 2007 05:05 PM
When did Iraq invade the US and UK
I would like to know why we, American Military, are the only ones that play by rules?
Dear Raymond Northgreaves, Learn how to spell and then we will hear your grievances. I am Former US SF and served and wounded over there. The job over there is tough enough, without people like you criticizing us, without actually being there. I do not condone all of the choices of our leadership, but hey you voted for them. I do thank those still serving their countries trying to do good for all they can. Thank you brothers and sisters in arms for continuing to fight for our countries, our rights and whatever freedoms we now have left, whether they understand or not. Thank you for trying to make a positive difference! –Disabled Vet
Former SSgt. JL — Learn to spell? What words
We Veterans of The Colours Association Armed Forces Federation
Raymond:
Please say that I’m reading this wrong!! You are critizing the U.S. for engaging the taliban and bin laden for what they have cause here in the U.S.?? The taliban subjecated the people there in Afghanistan both religiously and humanitarly and you say that we were wrong in going there to right the wrong? Bin laden attack us and we are notto fight back?
I greave for all the U.S. soldiers that died in WW2 to save your arses from the Natzis. Maybe we should have stayed out of that conflic! I believe that you would be speeking German by now.
By the by what about your glorious monarchy that has opressed the the Scotts and the Irish??
Should the U.S. support a revolution so the rightful King of Scotland would retake his throne??
I faught in Nam and I saw many women and children used not only as human sheilds but as human bombs and children as soldiers 10 year olds using aks. Many of my friends died because of them.
War is hell many people die, good and bad!
As a species humans will always fight each other for one reason or another. When people that don’t have want what the poeple that have and try to obtain or try to opresse their people to gain power and wealth there will always be conflict in the world.
One other thing I want to say before I close the people that moved her in the 1600s from England were moving here to escape persecusion and opression of their religious beliefs by your glorious Monarchy!!
Any comments Ramond or are you to affraid to step up defend your views??
John
John, Hi!
You are so wrong in all you write, you have not understood any thing that I have wrote
I’m Scottish and I’m also an American. I was deployed to Afghanistan when I joined the ARMY and I fought the Taliban and Al-qaeda with the rest of my platoon. There have been losses of civilians in Afghanistan forever. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda are acting like a (glorious Monarchy) over there and it’s something I take offense to, when these cunts try to say all we do is kill civilians and aren’t making progress in Iraq or Afghanistan I become enraged. The truth of the matter is that we are making progress and trying set up a foundation for these countries to have schools, hospitals, better economy, and freedom from senseless violence such as IED attacks and terrorist bombings. Anyone who is American should be proud of our troops, I know I’m proud to be an American soldier and I’m disgusted with these people who haven’t been in combat but think they know it all. The facts show that in both countries the highest civilian cassualties come from terrorists. Here is a list of things you will never understand Raymond Northgreaves::::::
LOYALTY,DUTY,RESPECT,SELFLESS-SERVICE,HONOR,
INTEGRITY,PERSONAL COURAGE.
I’m Scottish and I’m also an American!
Here is a list of things you will never understand Raymond Northgreaves::::::
LOYALTY,DUTY,RESPECT,SELFLESS-SERVICE,HONOR,
INTEGRITY,PERSONAL COURAGE.
You are just one more Jock ars’ole who helped the Roman Catholice IRA murder 2510 of my comrades — I served 22 years in the British Army and in my time of service we did not murder children to win a fire fight.
I’m English and we are feed up of you Jocks living on our backs, and our taxes, go to HELL Pal!
Ask the US Army for some education, you need it.
I THINK WE SHOULD JUST MAKE A BIG HOLE WHERE IRAQ,IRAN,PAKISTAN AND THE REST OF THAT AREA AND FILL IT WITH WATER AND MAKE A WATER PARK.KILL’EM ALL,LET GOD SORT’EM OUT
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