All right, so the NBC piece on Dragon Skin aired last night. Based on the contentious discussion on this board, I figured most DT readers have seen it.
So what do you think?
I caught a few things that concerned me. First of all, the Dragon Skin was clearly tested on a flat clay backing rather than a curved one while the ESAPI was tested on a curved backing. PEO Soldier officials were adamant that the Dragon Skin be tested on a curved backing, and noted that Murray Neal objected.
The reason, they said, is that when flat, DS provides maximum overlap of the disks. When the armor is placed over a curved surface like a soldiers chest the disks separate more. That creates some gaps (see page 10, before testing shot just below neck line).
DOWNLOAD THE ENTIRE PEO SOLDIER BRIEF HERE.
Second of all, I covered Phil Coyle when he was Director of the Operational Test and Evaluation office at the Pentagon back in the late 1990s. He has been very critical of programs in the past for any hint of lapses in operational effectiveness or operational suitability. The DS, at this point, clearly fails in the suitability category because of its weight. There seems to have been no mention whatsoever of the Dragon Skins crushing weight in the NBC piece.
I picked up one of the SOV3000 vests in XL at PEO Soldier and another one at MarCorpsSysCom a couple weeks ago (it clearly appeared that would be the size that fit me best, though I wear a Large Interceptor) and it was staggering how heavy it was. I was blown away.
Why did NBC and even more important, Phil Coyle, not pick up on this obvious problem? During the show, all we see are technicians handling pieces of the armor, not the whole vest. If they had been, viewers would see that most people cant pick the vest up by the haul loop with one hand.
Lastly in my major critique category is that NBC producers totally ignored the data from the thorough brief they were given by PEO Soldier. They relied on a sit-down interview with BGEN. Mark Brown and one gotcha moment when Brown admitted he didnt know the basis for the SOUM banning DS back in April 2006.
Fact is and I saw the results only a few weeks after the SOUM was released (ironically, my source was a Marine) a DS panel was tested in May 2004, before the ESAPI requirement, and failed because earlier iterations used wire to secure the disks rather than adhesive. After the first shot the wire failed and the disks slipped.
So why did NBC ignore the x-ray data from the PEO soldier brief? What would the publics reaction have been if theyd seen the interviews and tests then the x-ray photos showing the disks bunched together like a roll of nickels? A few scratched heads, Im sure.
This story is not going away. Well keep on top of it as it develops, so please stay engaged.
Another really good write up on the issue can be found HERE.
Again, more people with nothing to lose.… accept the parents of course.
The problem is that everyone keeps thinking ‘more armour is better’.
I must admit.. that I think the temperature issue is very important and yet… questionable. The wires could be shot and broken.. and the vest come apart like a house of cards…
If they were smart, they’d rig the back of the ‘plates’ to the ‘fabric’.
It looks like armour is going to get heavier and heavier all around.… Everything from the HUMVEE, to the grunt, to the civilian back home is getting heavier
Although, if a soldier wishes to take his chances with Dragon skin, I think that should be up to that individual.
There is only one answer: independent testing. The unfortunately conflict of interest issue has meant that the Army cannot be taken to be objective here.
The Army has handled this one badly, but can still recover easily from the damage if independent tests are carried out.
Otherwise it could be pretty bad — if Neal is wrong, the problem won’t go away until this can be proven.
You need independend tests? You only need a weighing machine. Read the article above and read PEO brief. Those vests weight nearly 20 lb more. Even if this stuff was working during FAT it is not worth the weight. What is so hard to understand about that? The “evil testers” didn’t need to sabotage tests to diss Dragon Skin. And what kind of conflict of interest do you see? The Army wants no better body armor and Pinnacle doesn’t want any money??? Yes of course, that’s it.
In my eyes it is really retarded that Pinnacle declared vests one size bigger as “weight reduction” and compares them to some false IBA weights. So it is hard to believe that those guys say anything that is true.
The ME and will never miss a shot to slam the Military. If the Mil had gone with Dragon Skin they report would have been in the opposite direction slamming the Mil for ignoring the failures.
I have been a long time supporter of the Dragon Skin idea since it was just a cool new thing on Defencereview.com but if the stuff fails below 60 and above 120 F what good is it? (haven’t heard the wire angle yet till now).
I thought it pretty piss poor of the ME to mention what multiple times the government failed due to temperature extremes cuasing failure, BUT then not add that to thier “independent” testing? Was that more ME incompetence, timing issues, or was the Dragon Skin guys scared? Below 40 above 120 F temps added to the test would mean what say 4 more vest both Dragon and Interceptor type along with a freezer & oven rental? Talk about a penny holding up a dollar WTF. If I was the Dragon Skin guys I think I would be falling over myself to test overtest and purposley target and prove false all swipes at my product. We are talking hundreds of thousands of armourded vest contract potential and that is just considering the US mil requirements.
At first I was leaning towards the Dragon Skin guys especially how when first denied they were all over letting thier product go through any all insane even test, but now I gotta question thier behavior of not challenging the Mil’s temp issues. You know how many times temp crest 140 in a Bradley? Even if the temp issues are not immediate failure but drastic vest life reduction the added replacement cost maybe to much. Another thing if Interceptor can add 20lb to thier vest will Dragon still out perform, thats nearly another SAPI plate?
Lot of questions and I went into the ME report with low expectations so I was actually pretty impressed with what they did manage to deliver.
Good Morning Folks,
It is hard to fault the Army in this one. Dragon Skin has had a well run public relations campaign that for years now has been promoting its products and bashing the Military. By law and for what should be obovious security reason the Army can’t and won’t release actual test results of products, especially something like body armor.
The X-Rays show percisely what the problem with Dragon Skin is, there should be no doubts any longer that at least in this instence the Army made the “best” choice regarding what the options were of what to provide the troops.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinneo
I said elsewhere that the “failure” was due to a sub contractor not applying the adhesive to one row of discs and Murray Neal says that the issue has been addressed and two levels of quality control checks have been implemented. But maybe it is too heavy, another forum a poster named “Soldier” has stated that IBA is too heavy too. I think most people are just put off that 4 or 5 public broadcasted tests of dragon skin have showed it to stop lots of lead. Then during an army test we hear “catastrophic failure.” I think it did fail but I also believe it was due to a manufacturing error and was an anonomaly not the norm. DS was tested on curved dummies on more than one occasion so I don’t think curved placement causes malfunctions, look at most of the other video of DS in action they are on human shaped dummies. Maybe it is too heavy, my point is say that, don’t say it is catastrophically failed due to a sub contractors mistake. Even IBA had to be recalled due to failed tests didn’t it?
On Interceptor’s rounded backing: the Interceptor plate is curved to fit the human torso. If you place it on flat clay, the plate will not be flush against it and the clay will not accurately depict the deformation of the plate. Dragon skin, being flexible, CAN be set against a flat surface and still accurately depict deformation.
As for the Army X-ray images, sorry I’m not buying it without verification. After the Trophy debacle I’m not going out on a limb to believe something release in improper format without any accompanying verification other than “their word.” Especially since other military and paramilitary organizations, like the CIA for instance, have tested and approved Dragon Skin.
Either way, I don’t see the harm in independent testing. if it bears out the Army’s results, case close and we all love Interceptor. If Dragon Skin comes out on top, we’ll not only have a better armor available but hopefully we’ll have exposed and hopefully ended a biased Army office.
“Pinnacle needs to sack up, quit bitchin and come back with a product that addresses the issues whether they think the testing is fair or not.“
–Grandjester
LOL. I agree with that conclusion.
Of course if the disc slip was just due to manufacturer anomaly and it has been fixed and processes put in place to keep it from happening again I don’t think DS will have any problem submitting for another test, let’s see it.
I am still waiting for the Pinnacle “recall” of all the vests made prior to the “discovery” of the anomoly. If Pinnacle is so concerned about soldier safety, don’t you think they would be concerned about all their customers who bought dragon skin? I wonder why NBC has not picked up on this aspect of the dragon tales soap opera?
Am I the only one who does not care which armor can take 5 high-powerd rifle shots and which can take 6? If you are in a position where you are taking 3–4 center of mass shots at close range, chances are you have other things to worry about.
The Dragon Skin vests do not weight 20 pounds more.
That’s a bogus comparison between an extra large size Dragon Skin vest with side protection and an interceptor with no side protection. More coverage, more weight, less coverage less weight. Area of coverage is up to the buyer. In all configurations, the DS is lighter than Interceptor per area of coverage.
It’s that sort of misleading comparison that make me think there has been DOD discrimination against Dragon Skin.
If it’s a bad product, the DOD shouldn’t have anything to hide. They should just run a fair, public test to show which is better. But with Dragon Skin, the DOD always seems to be hiding something and fabricating criticisms.
I believe the only reason there is a Dragon Skin controversy is because the DODs weird behavior has manufactured it.
WHAT! Are you saying NBC is spinning the this story so it makes the Army look bad…Impossible! *rolls eyes*
seriously…why would anyone expect NBC to be honest and show both sides of the story.
Didn’t NBC get caught using model rocket motors to ignite the gas tanks on GM trucks to show how dangerous the truck’s gas tank location was? They couldn’t make the tank explode by crashing them, so they used a pyrotechnic to command detonate the tanks. No wonder they and pinnacle get along so well.
Here is the link: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/LIE/nbc.html
Going off the deep end there Will?
Nice to see how high everyone’s opinion of Gen. Wayne Downing is. Or Col. Jim Magee for that matter.
NBC is not a credible organization, there is nothing fair and balanced about sensationalism at the expense of many hard working professionals who support our soldiers. The eroding of morale, and confidence in the equipment, and telling lies so that they can get ratings. Come on, even Hillary and Ted kennedy are claiming they are for the troops. You have to be a complete moron to believe any of this crap.
William, your ranting has grown incoherent and frankly, tiresome. NBC is out to destroy troops morale? How, by showing their armor stop 5 rifle rounds at close range? And you have to be a moron to question the Army, an organization know to falsify test data when it suited their agenda?
You work for Point Blank, by any chance?
Great write up. For the questioner who asked if you work for Point Blank, Ask them who has the new contract for OTVs. It’s not PB.
Now about NBC, if it is about just money or bribes or whatever, IBA has tons more money than ds. In that point blank and amor holdings have received huge contracts from the government and their stock price has rises by huge amounts since 2003. If there is bribing or sponsorships being bought who really thinks pinnacle could afford to keep up with point blank? I think all that is conjecture and is silly anyway just leads to this, why would NBC care wich is better? If they had done a story that showed IBA to be pefection and DS failed it would have been just as big is not bigger a story. To say that the army was right all along etc is just as newsworthy as saying they screwed people will tune in to see what is going on is the point. Saying DS sucks is just as attention grabbing as saying IBA sucks since DS is just as known now by the public. It would also have been a big story to prove all those other shows wrong. Questioning results from discovery and the history channel would have been a big story with controversy maybe not as hard hitting as calling out the army but still NBC would get national attention.
Dear Patriot,
That was a very nice explaination of force and impact. Here are a few additional points to consider:
1) All the tiles sit at an angle when flat or when wrapped around the body as they are overlapped by adjoining tiles. It’s called an imbricated pattern or better known as scalar armor. These tiles open a bit as they flex around the body by the tiles pivoting off each other to make the curve.
2) The tiles are true discuses, where the center is the thickest part, and they have a uniform downward slope of radius co-extensive with a radius or a segment. This is an Independant claim. All other claims are basic public domain concepts dependant upon the first claim. That is they have all entered the market well before the Dragon Skin patents.
3) The weakest point here is the point between successor tiles offset from the center, whereby you angle the test barrel receiver so that you get a perpendicular shot on the thinnest spot not supported by an overlapping disk. This is the definition of your perpendicular impact discussion.
4) Currently the armor is not tested this way in respect to the NIJ protocol or in the German lab that recently conducted side by side testing for the NBC Dateline news show. It is tested flat.
5) For scalar armor to be tested correctly it MUST be set around a fixed target around a test fixture designed to mimick the true wearing of the vest, and then impacted as set forth above so that the weakest point is attacked in a true 90 degree angle and also attacked at an angle to try and take advantage of the slight opening of the tiles as they make the bend around the body.
6) From what I gather the army did this, and the German laboratory didn’t, as well as any other testing entity that has reported results on Dragon Skin.
While interceptor plates certainly possess less repeat capability as shown at the German laboratory in what appeared to be true independant testing; remember the uniform thick plannular plates represented by the Interceptor system doesn’t change it’s poition at all while wearing, but the scalar armor does, and that’s why the NIJ has devised a different test for scalar armor. The military has simply taken it two step further; true wearing placement while testing, and extreme environmental conditioning testing. I remember very clearly giving armor to the military to train with, the boys play rough! The armor comes back looking like crap in a short period of time unless it’s built tough.
The environmental testing is designed to accelerate the aging process. In service life testing and maintenance has become quite common with military body armor world wide.
Regards,
Al
Very interesting Mr. Bain,
So to try to get this straigh the test should target the top row or the bottom row, that being the only rows with no overlapping and at the very edge of the disc that being the thinnest part of the disc? Is that what Murray Neal was talking about in his rebuttle about the edge test must be .75 and 1.25 inch from the edge and he claimed that the vest was shot .5 inches from the edge? Are you aware these claims about the edge test are true?
i am an armor designer, have been for 4 years, ill leave the company i work for out but i do have some insights that might make soldiers families sleep better at night. DS has failed a number of test with complete pass through, the disks are arranged from left to right, if the vest is shot from the right side(from the wearers prospective) there is a 1 in 10 chance that the bullet will exploit the seam and slip through the armor. the army wants to know that every round will stop, that is the only real reason it failed, otherwise its heavy, but a very good armor system. the army is not lying, it has failed test done by industry leaders also. this is a small industry, DS was brought to company
i am an armor designer, have been for 4 years, ill leave the company i work for out but i do have some insights that might make soldiers families sleep better at night. DS has failed a number of test with complete pass through, the disks are arranged from left to right, if the vest is shot from the right side(from the wearers prospective) there is a 1 in 10 chance that the bullet will exploit the seam and slip through the armor. the army wants to know that every round will stop, that is the only real reason it failed, otherwise its heavy, but a very good armor system. the army is not lying, it has failed test done by industry leaders also. this is a small industry, DS was brought to company
IBA test pattern starts at the left hand edge of the plate, the second shot is in the center and the third is equally space from the first two. This is how monolithic plates are shot. They are also subjected to a drop test(we call it the bash test) using a 10 lb weight and then the plate is shot. Military test protocols have evolved over time and are usually the result of a failure and the purpose of the test is to discover the potential problem before it becomes a “problem”. While the reason for some of these tests are not readily apparent to the public they exist due to some real world problem experienced in the past. Some equipment has very long lifespans in military service, shelf life is also an issue, the military also uses accelerated aging tests to test materials and things like adhesives, which tend to dry out and fail just sitting on the shelf. The military uses climate controlled storage for long term storage,but when war materials are pre-positioned or are in field storage in forward locations, materials wind up being stored and subjected to the climatic conditions in the theater of operations. For example, how hot do you think the temperature gets inside of a steel conex storage container sitting in the sun in Iraq? The time to find out if a material or the construction methods used are adequate is in the test lab prior to adoption and production of the item, and not when you need to use it. Yea,we put man on the moon, but not before we tested every piece of equipment for the conditions we expected to encounter in space. Do I need to elaborate?
Dear Txzen,
No not quite. Let me try again.
You place each tile ovelapping the last. You would generally start from the left side and work your way to the right and then start the next row back on the left side working your way from top to bottom the way we read.
There are spots all over where there is no over lap, and the offset from the center in between two successor tiles is apoint that represents the thinnest and most unsupported part of the vest. When tested flat the armor exhibits an angle to the test projectile, as the bullet is only perpendicular to the clay backing, not the tile!
When we re-adjust the test barrell to be 90 degrees to the tile in these spots you have a chance of penetration espcially against the APM2.
And as our 4 year old armor designer aptly stated occasionally they get through. Do you see the red circle on the X-ray? Thats one of those spots, no where near the edge.
We have redesigned this and have filed a patent for this redesigned tile to prevent these weakspots.
Is that clearer??
Al
BTW, my apologies to the armor designer, I said 4 year old I meant 4 years of experience armor designer.
Sorry.
All the demos of Dragonskin that I’ve seen feature bullets/guns less powerful than NATO 7.62 or the Russian near equivalent (fired from the PK and Dragonov). Although its effectiveness against NATO 5.56 and 7.62 x 39 (AK ammo) certainly seems impressive, I wonder if the omission of hi-powered 30. Caliber machine gun rounds is an indication of the limits of this type of armor.
Check out Pinnacle’s level 5 body armor!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnfHhRl7U0
this is no joke, check it out
Who cares about dragonskin? The Army tested it and it failed. If anyone wanted to see it tested in a more thurough manner they should have let us Marines do the testing. I know that dragonskin is less effective because all of it’s manufacturing problems and the standards that are not being met.
Maybe next time one of these companies will come to Marines first so that we can work with them and weed out all of the problems before it gets too controversial for correction and or use.
I watched the video patriot and the vest looks like it weighs 100 pounds! Yes it may provide more protection but weight is always a factor even for Marines believe it or not. It looks like there is a god damn box of cereal strapped to the dummies chest, which makes for maneuverability issues as well. I wish someone could come up with something flexible,lightweight,durable and better but for now it doesn’t seem like anyone has that ability. I urge anyone with better options to contact the Marines first because we keep things confidential over here and we try to address issues instead of going “media” on everyone.
Yea leatherneck, that’s super funny, and I just love how they use a level 3 or 4 ceramic plate instead of side by side plate to demonstrate.
“Side Show Neal’s” circus continues. Let’s put our level 5 armor against level 3 and 4 armor and show how much better ours is.
If anyone is designing armor (Allan Bain) I suggest you contact the Marine Corps. We could have worked with Dragonskin but they thought we were to strict on testing armor. We could have already issued an improved version of Dragonskin because we like to weed out problems if possible and get our men the best because they are the best. Basicly if it’s good enough for a Marine then it’s good enough for all military.
Certainly Leatherneck, the armor systems of this country should be tested by the Marine Corps. They sculpt the best fighters in the universe and I think they would agree to doing the first article testing and other tests which may not be covered under that testing criteria. Why hasn’t anyone else thought of this? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they know that the Marine Corps won’t take their crap. Pinnacle would piss themselves when confronted about the crappienes of their armor. Pinnacle thinks they can sneak something through the backdoor of military and all they see is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!
Allan Bain is a hack. He’s trying to ride the faulty dragonskin wave by making something similar
and even more seemingly unreliable. Your hard armor isn’t the best of quality either. Interceptor is the best and it works so stop trying to play good-guy bad-guy/he-said she-said because it’s pathetic just like your designs.
You are wrong about Allan Bain he is the only one I’ve heard of with a better product than Interceptor. If I could kiss the man I would because he is so good.
The Army just posted the requirements for XSAPI on the FED BIZ OPS. Let’s see if Pinnacle shows up to the party and can pass the testing. I don’t think they can meet the weight requirement and the ballistic performance at the same time. But we will see. Now is put up or shut up time for dragon skin. If they show up with that hideous looking armor package on their Level V video, I mean it looks like a New York City phonebook. How many of you Leathernecks want to wear that thing? LOL, science fiction at its’ best boys. Maybe Murray should team up with the Bear suit guy.
I know marines are “suppose” to be the best, but thoes blokes from the United Kingdom are obviously better in every respect. Way to go whorehay booshler, the #1 terrorrist in the world. Good thing is — America is not that far from the bottom of the bucket now, so up is really the only option. Maybe some day, America will be top dog again, but it’s doubtful.
Hey spanky Barlow would you like to go out?
Me and Mr.Bain would like to squirt on you. Are you gay too? I thought so.
Yes, I swallow as well. Are you into fisting?
Well I guess I’ll see you tonight and I’ll bring the lube.
As my grandfather once told me, if you run and hide the statements are true. So Allan Bain is gay
and all the statements made are now validated.
The devil dogs have spoken and have dominated in these forums like everything else. Allan Bain and his fag buddy William have been eliminated and rightfully so.
I don’t believe you guys are real Marines. Most that I have met are respectful and professional. You should be ashamed, I know the Corps would.
I’m a Marine and I don’t what has been said by whom. We are professionals and while we often don’t act like it when it’s just us, this is the internet it by definition is more than just us. All of these people spewing the hate and garbage are posers or members of the few that slipped threw the cracks and never deserved to be Marines in the first place. You want me to to think you’re a Marine? Act like it. You aren’t and you’re an embarassment to my loved country much less my beloved Corps.
Hey T grow a set. You ain’t shit if you’re gonna cry about us being (innappropriate).
Okay okay,
listen up, I realize this is an old thread but I can’t help reading without wanting to put in my two cents. Bottom line: Large Ceramic plate armor technology is pathetic and borderline ancient. If there is a design flaw with the dragon skin adhesive then fix it! I don’t care if its pinnacle OR the US military. This technology is like the knights of old jumping from Full Plate to Scale Mail. Just fix it! We have seen clip after clip of the DS taking round after round, if its having trouble with environmentals then fix the problem! The concept, the technology is far superior. Its 2008, give me a better body armor, interceptor and all ceramic plate tech sucks. If you see something that is better in one aspect, buy the rights, improve the technology, save lives. This isn’t rocket science, its a little common sense. And it doesn’t take a physicist to know that scales are going to take more than a solid plate! So lets get this stuff fixed and the superior technology on the soldiers NOW.
any body herd of r&d if thers a problem fix it even if you have to go back to square 1 in my spare time im going to try to work on somthing even better how about a low number of larger plats formed to spefic dementhions of the body ex upper chest back midsection just a thought but the best stuff comes from amthurs improvising ill see what i can do
now i need some start up money god knows my sign up bouns isent going to cover it
It failed. Twice.