Nearly 80 percent of Soldiers said in a recent survey they are satisfied with their weapons, though almost half recommended a replacement for the standard-issued M9 pistol or ammunition with more stopping power.
Additionally, nearly 30 percent of Soldiers in the December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by the Center for Naval Analyses, said the M4 carbine should be replaced or more deadly ammunition fielded.
“Across weapons, Soldiers have requested weapons and ammunition with more stopping power/lethality,” the report said.
The study was commissioned by the Army’s Project Manager for Soldier Weapons to address concerns raised by Soldiers returning from combat about the dependability and effectiveness of their small arms.
Download the entire CNA report here (2MB pdf).
“This study assessed Soldier perspectives on the reliability and durability of their weapons systems in combat to aid in decisions regarding current and future small arms needs of the Army,” said the study, which was obtained by Military.com.
CNA surveyors conducted over 2,600 interviews with Soldiers returning from combat duty, asking them a variety of questions about accessories, weapons training, maintenance and recommended changes to their small arms.
“The U.S. Army Infantry Center is conducting a study to refine the Army’s Small Arms Strategy, which focuses on the employment of rifles, carbines, ammunition caliber, and future technologies,” said Army spokesman, Lt. Col. William Wiggins, in a statement. “All Services are participating in this study, which is expected in the July/August 2007 timeframe.”
The survey lends weight to Army claims that current-issued weapons are effective despite growing criticism from Soldiers and lawmakers on Capitol Hill that the service should re-assess the standard M4 — as well as the M9 pistol.
In April, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) sent a letter to acting Army secretary Pete Geren taking issue with the service’s sole-source contract to buy about 500,000 M4 carbines despite evidence that new rifle technologies could provide more reliable weapons.
The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight.
Though vocal critics of the M4 say it’s prone to jamming in the talcum-like sand environments of Iraq and Afghanistan, only 19 percent of M4 users said they experienced stoppages in combat.
But of those with malfunctioning M4s, nearly 20 percent said they were “unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage,” the report said.
Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage “if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails.”
“Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages,” the report said. “Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached.”
The CNA surveyors also asked Soldiers for their opinions on possible improvements to their small arms. The top request from Soldiers was for more knock-down power, reigniting the debate over America’s small arms caliber choices.
“When speaking to experts and Soldiers on site, many commented on the limited ability to effectively stop targets, saying that those personnel targets who were shot multiple times were still able to continue pursuit,” the report said.
A full 20 percent of M9 users said they wanted a new weapon, and “some were more specific and requested a return to the Colt .45 for standard issue pistols,” including others who asked for hollow-point ammo.
Hollow point rounds have been deemed illegal for military use.
Additionally, M16 users were “consistent and adamant” in asking to be re-issued the more compact M4.
since issue in 1965 the m-16 has had problem. was not desigfn foir killing, stopping, just injury to both the user and the enemy. but it is nato ammo. why they went from a 30 cal mangler, to a 22 want to injur is ?????????? remember the 1911 45 cal. it put you down wre ever you were hit. not the 9mm 10 round hit they kill you.
It should be like this. We signed the conventions and treaties to follow those practices with other countries that have signed it. If the members of armed conflict have not signed or are unwilling to then we do not have to follow all rules and stipulations. Why follow a contract if the person you’re fighting never signed. We can’t lower ourselves to an insurgent level due to the fact that they have no level and never will.
I was an airborne infantryman with the 1–325 AIR, 82nd and served in Iraq during OIF. I left the states 14Feb2003 and returned 22Jan2004. The only major piece of equipment that was is serious need of total replacement is the small arms (ie the M4 and the M9), the helmet (which is n the process of being replaced now) and the como. The 5.56mm and the 9mm rounds are just too small for the job of these two firearms. If the military wants to use a flat shooting light round try the .243 as oppossed to the .223(5.56mm). A 30cal round would be better however a .243 would suffice. The design of the M4 is great just needs a larger caliber. As for a pistol go with a .40 or even .45. The body armor saved me life so I can say that it works just fine. The ONLY downfall is the lack of armor on the ribs however armor here would decrease mobility. If your mobility is taken away no armor will save you. The hand held como just wasn’t reliable. The three basics: SHOOT, MOVE, COMMUNICATE! We didn’t mind having not armor on the trucks because the up-armored trucks are cramped on the inside.
Lets be honest US armed forces small arms selection has always been a political one. From the problem plagued AR-15/M-16 family, to the selection of the ammunition we used.
And when others tried to improve on the initial design. Lobbyst from gun manufacturers prevailed.. especially from Colt. As they own the design for M-16 family, even though many other manufacturers have offered alternatives. Like the XM8, granted it wasnt much to look at. Again Colt and other US manufacturers cried foul, in the endevour of choosing the next generation of small arms.
They say its not fair or competative, but you dont see them engaging in development in next generation of small arms. All you see is gagets attached to weapons to make them “effective”. In the end its no better than what we have now.. just more weight and more complex. A simple effective battle/assault weapon family is sorely needed. The M-16 rifle was a excellent weapon.. but seriously i dont think too many of our small arms lasted this long of a tour.
But does provide us a good starting platform, despite its weaknesses it has a lot going for it. Perhaps a change of ammunition, internal design changes to make it more effective, and reliable. But that said.. M4 series is no more than a cut down m16 with gaggets and wiggits.. to make it more fancier. But internally .. lets admit.. its prolly not much different from its parent the M-16A1/A2.
To sum things up, we need a reliable front line weapon. Even m. kalashnikov derived his AK-47 family from our very own M1 garand.. We can make good weapons we just too damn stuck up to really sit down and realy work hard on it.
Ammunition side lets.. be frank.. its really up to the use. There is no such thing as one magic caliber to attend to all possible scenarios. Taking the 5.56 out of its usual parameters and requirements of 21 inch barrel you really screwing yourself that way. Want a carbine, develop a better round for it. 5.56 NATO was designed with penetration in mind, SS109 steel cored projectile. And expecting a knockdown power out of it is downright silly. Perhaps a CQB improvement on the 5.56 NATO round would be a better fix to address the standardazation issues.
Ahh yes the 9mm issue, well we cant get around that one. We are forced to accept a smaller 9x19mm ammunition, due to NATO commitments. But a better switch better yet is improvements on the projectile we use in it. The 124 gr. standard is fine… i guess to general use. Self defense loads of 147 have show plenty of promise and actual showing of better knockdown power. See how much a little change.. makes a big difference in the way we fight. as for the M9 issue, Golden rule weapons fire when you keep them clean and fixed. Though personally i thought the change to that weapon was silly. Especialy the army requirements they put inot place for that trials. It was a half baked decision to adopt it, hence you get a half baked result. Better options were available, If they want relability. The Austrians have a good answer, most of the european union countries have to complaint with the firearms they chosen.
I think the army should replace its handguns with ones made by Smith and Wesson. They are far superior. When it comes to rifles, they should check out the H&K models. They are state of the art.
yeah, the m-4 should be replaced with the Barret 416, which uses a 6.8mm round, a combo of the 7.62 and the 5.56, plus, its more reliable, has more stopping power. Or at least the Heckler and Kock 416, which still uses the 5.56, but is more resistant to jams, especially because of sand, and is esier to costumize, without the worry of the customized part being the problem of your jams.
Give them the .45 with hollow points.
Give them the .45 with hollow points.
i want to get my bro’s-in-arms to get the victories that they deserve in those minutes in actual contact (the word “contact” brings back a memory of ‘nam after we had to medevac three guy’s from our platoon “doc” our medic said “you know these high falutin mf’s talk about “war is hell” n hit by a phosphorecent willy pete shrapnel you need to get grenadiers that can put 5 to 8 rounds in the air before the first one impacts you need fast and accurate “bloopergrunts”.good luck to you broham’s and may you all come back saf ely adios muchachos hoorah!!!!!!!!!!
what you all need is some fast and accurate bloopergrunts for your times in actual contact 4 per unit to be safe 1 for left flank work towards center 1 for the right flank work towards the center 1 for immediate rear work towards the center and block abdullahs escape 1 for the front work towards the center because i do not care how suicidal abdullah is he would rather run to his front and catch .556 in his eye than to be burned down to his very soul by willypetes i fergot to spec’ that you need to saturate the enemy in willypetes because i do not care how bad of a soldier abdullah thinks he is he will not even know where his ak is at when willypetes are fragmenting all around his culo.what you need is some actual natural bloopergrunts not some dumb f-k that uses the sighting apparatus. what you need is some good old school b’ball shooters,some old school outfielders,old school q’backs i mean natural ass havin’ arc shooters they need to be so accurate and so fast that they can lob 7 to 10 rounds in the air before the first one even impacts.“war is hell but actual contact is a m-f’ah” “doc” medic west of ankhe 69’now when i say the flank i mean where you cansee the abdullahs and the amins to the right or left or rear or front.well adios muchachos and may you all come back safely, hoorah!!!!!!!!!!
i want to get my bro’s-in-arms to get the victories that they deserve in those minutes in actual contact (the word “contact” brings back a memory of ‘nam after we had to medevac three guy’s from our platoon “doc” our medic said “you know these high falutin mf’s talk about “war is hell” n hit by a phosphorecent willy pete shrapnel you need to get grenadiers that can put 7 to 10 rounds in the air before the first one impacts you need fast and accurate “bloopergrunts”.good luck to you broham’s and may you all come back saf ely adios muchachos hoorah!!!!!!!!!!
Yo, mjl:
People are still on the board; they just don’t have anything to add after 405 posts.
If you want to continue the discussion, you might go over to the Military.com board. You’ll find it at http://forums.military.com/eve.
Apart from that, there are weapons boards pretty much everywhere. Cast your bread upon the water.
You might try the Center for Army Lessons Learned; they’re at http://call.army.mil/. You can contact LEATHERNECK magazine or the MARINE CORPS GAZETTE over at http://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/.
Some of the stuff you’re saying about the blooper makes sense. Don’t know how useful those tactics are with a lot of civilians around. I do know the USMC is working with a 6 shot 40mm launcher that seems tailor made for what you’re talking about. You can find a story on that at http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,SoldierTech_060323_mgl140„00.html
Then again, there’s always the Mk19. That too was pretty much made for what you’re talking about.
Good luck.
we were in ‘contact’ we quickly gained superiority over them as they were running we were picking them off like flies on a cantaloupe, there4 was this insurgenr that was not running i checked with my fire team leader he gave me the go ahead so i peppered this disciplined hard core veet cong with some willy pete. later on that dayi asked about the veet cong this soldier told me you did that animal a favor he was probably sacrifacing hisself for his god so i went on along with my tour with that in my mind and615888orah“
as a marine i think we do need more stopping power. However we also need a weapon that is easy to maintane. The glock .45 or .40 is the way to go. Forget the rules! Hollow points, and head shots!!
as a marine i think we do need more stopping power. However we also need a weapon that is easy to maintane. The glock .45 or .40 is the way to go. Forget the rules! Hollow points, and head shots!!
The enemy has no rules why in the world would we put our men and women over there or anywhere without the best and most stopping power there is? That is a crime. Put the congress and senate over there on the street with our military surrounding them to protect them then see what type of weapons and ammo they approve for use!!Wait leave them here and take their families so that they can be here to vote on what they can use. Some families have already had to send the vests for their loved ones to wear I guess we need to send guns and ammo also.
Good day to all my fellow soldiers marines air force and navy .Im a ex navy gunner and i agree we need better firepower and should be allow to carry what every each person want so if you want a lame ass 9mm cool but dont tell us to feel sorry for you when after 3 mag you still cant kill anyone simple put until every person is a crack shot mean you can take head shot at 25yr 9out10 time you need a .45 to do the job and rifle i say the 6.8mmm look sweet saw the test fire of it
The current 5.56/9mm ammo is a joke. The ubiquitous 7.62 mm AK47 trumps it in both reliability, stopping power and (in rough conditions) accuracy.
Either bring back the classics (Colt45/Browning 50) or replace them with something better. If they were good enough for the Nazis they’re good enough for terrorist sects. Shooting people and watching them get back up is the last thing we need in the face of 4000+ casualties and roadside shaped charges courtesy of Iran.
I recognized her is an occasional, When I was just upgrade and earn rappelz gold. She also just through, and she is a new player, she saw me my number is high. So she asked me how to play. And I said I was a bad people, I asked if did you not heard in this game. She said she heard, but she did not believe. I smiled. So I took her to play, I told her how to play, how to upgrade.
I’m looking for a reasonably good picture of a quad 50 that was mounted on the back of a truck in Viet Nam. Preferred without the truck picture.
Thank you.