Defense Tech infrequent contributor and resident ballistics expert David Woroner busted out an interesting first-person analysis of a bullet that could answer soldiers call for more stopping power.
As our readers might remember, we reported two weeks ago that a Center for Naval Analyses study obtained by DT found of all the suggested improvements for Americas standard-issued sidearm and carbine, soldiers surveyed said they want a more deadly weapon or round.
CNA pointed out that one answer is off the table: hollow point ammo.
But Woroner took a first-hand look at a type of round that could answer a politics vs. lethality dilemma
From Dave (its a longish entry, but I think youll find it worth the read):
Known as the Federal EFMJ for expanding full metal jacket the round would appear to be a gift from above to the soldier on the ground. It is fully jacketed, yet expands like a hollow point upon impact.
The basic concept was developed by projectile whiz Tom Burzynski and Larry Head, lead ammo designer for Federal applied some of his magic to bring this bullet to fruition.
So what makes this round so different and special?
Well first of all it is a full metal jacketed bullet — this means there is no cup at the front as with most hollow points. Standard hollow points work by taking advantage of fluid dynamics — the fluid being the liquid or blood in a target.
While stopping many a fight and still not a bad choice at all, I personally have seen many hollow points stay intact — or not expand. The culprit for this has usually been, believe it or not, clothing. When the cup or hollow of the bullet is passing through clothing, especially winter type clothing the hollow point can end up filled as it cuts through the material thus preventing expansion.
Whats also pretty cool about the EFMJ bullet is that because its fully jacketed, it feeds flawlessly. Anyone whos spent some time shooting hollow-point ammo has experienced the hollow lip catching on the feed ramp of the weapon forcing an operator to execute stoppage drills in the middle of a gunfight.
Besides overcoming the feeding issue, the EFMJ works unlike a typical hollow point on impact. Think for a minute about firing at a target through drywall with a standard hollow point? Nine times out of ten the hollow point will fill up with the powdery drywall.
Now enter the EFMJ. It works by having a piece of encased lead with a tiny nylon/rubber plug. When it strikes its target, it cannot fill up at the front since its encased. Instead, it begins to (for lack of a better word) smush up the entire round. How it begins its expansion so diametrically opposed to a standard hollow point and its reliance on fluid hydraulics is that the EFMJ operates solely on impact/kinetic input to the front of the bullet.
Part of the manufacturing process of the EFMJ includes creating cuts or striations on the inside of the encasing copper. When the bullet impacts, it begins its expansion by impact/blunt force with the cuts splitting and allowing the rubber component to continue to flatten. By then it would have entered its target.
Another test I did was to shoot it through plies of standard drywall and it worked great. It penetrated, started its deformation as well. So when it struck the target behind the wall, the bullet was still full of energy, yet almost fully expanded.
Shooting through two pieces of drywall yielded the same result, except it was obvious there was a slight drop off in connecting kinetic energy. You want to be able to shoot through drywall and plywood and still hit something, but you dont want it going down the block and kill granny sitting out knitting on her front porch.
The penetration I got was very consistent with current kinetic impact understanding and that gave me even more reason to trust this round. To put it quite simply it is harder to shoot through a piece of glass then it is drywall because the glass is more molecularly compact than the drywall.
So when I shot 9mm and 45cal. rounds through each, I was pleasantly surprised to find that although the rounds did penetrate the glass, the expanded as advertised. Having my caliper in back pocket told me that the 9mm expanded to .51 inches and the 45 cal. to .64 inches (all rounds being caught by foam and soft rubber) those numbers are an average for multiple shots on glass. The 9mm in my opinion in straight up head to head performance came out ahead of the .45, Im sure only because of the higher velocity of the 9mm round.
On the drywall, I found more expansion but not by much, 9mm to .58 and the .45cal to .67 which for either surface, and the energy carried still after impact was surely enough to penetrate a solid 9–10 inches.
It would be super to see our troops carrying the EFMJ in their Beretta, Colt, Kimber, etc. The next thing Federal needs to do is create the same technology in the 5.56 (.223) round, I would be very interested to see the results of that test.
{ 60 comments… read them below or add one }
Dear Sir, I always respect others opinions, however, in this case your are mistaken. Allow me to show you “real deal” so to speak. (thank you.)
THE HAGUE CONVENTION & THE UNITED STATES
Dear Sir, I always respect others opinions, however, in this case your are mistaken. Allow me to show you “real deal” so to speak. (thank you.)
THE HAGUE CONVENTION & THE UNITED STATES
“Declaration III, Hague Convention of 1899:
The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,
Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,
Declare as follows:
The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.
It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.
The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.
A proces-verbal shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.
The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.
In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers.
This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.
In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.
Done at The Hague the 29th July, 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and of which copies, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers.”
that’s the direct wrding of the Hague convention that calls for FMJ rounds. Not the geneva accords. For those whos eyes glassed over, heres the pertinant part, again.
“agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.”
Cannot use expanding, flattening, or bullets with a soft points, or the jacket cut (dum dums), or cut. The EFMJ falls uder most of those. It is actualy intednded NOT for military use, but for police and civilian use in precints that are finiky about the use of hollowpoint rounds.
Sorry.
what are the manufacturing and cost concerns for these rounds? sounds like a magic bullet, but if it’s not deemed “cost effective” (bang for the buck, so to speak) then it’s going to stay in the realm of special operators and other units who can pick and choose their gear
I guess in an age where we an precision guide a 500lb bomb into the window of a truck, vaporising the occupants it is very important to not have bullets that will flatten out on impact!?
While thats nice you found the Geneva Convention for us all to read the simple fact is that the US Senate never ratified that treaty and as such the United States is not legally bound to it. Go back to college goverment 1301. One will see that just because the executive branch signs a treaty does not mean the US is bound to it in anyway shape or form. For the treaty to be law the US Senate must ratify the treaty as well which they did not in this case; we however follow the “spirit” of the agreement but do not be fooled for one second that we are legally bound to its provisions.
it wasn't the Geneva Convention, it was the Hague Convention.
but I agree that a 111 year-old agreement is pretty much worthless due to the advances in technology since it's writing
Well, you americans have broken every other treaty, including nuclear disarmamnet and the Geneva convention on torture, so what does it matter if youo break another one?. It comes as no suprise to your former supporters. Go for it, just remember what goes around, comes around.
Well, you americans have broken every other treaty, including nuclear disarmamnet and the Geneva convention on torture, so what does it matter if youo break another one?. It comes as no suprise to your former supporters. Go for it, just remember what goes around, comes around.
What is this crap..The US does follow the Geneva convention you jackass why do you think we don’t ?? The Geneva convention rule apply to those in uniform fighting in a war. If you are not wearing a uniform and are acting as a combatant then the only thing that applies to you is the right to die. The current batch of cowards running around wearing dresses and using kids for shields ie aq, taliban jihadists what ever those clowns are calling themselves deserve nothing. Anyone who kills women,children and people who are non combatants over a belife or religion are cowards and do not deserve the treatment under the Geneva convention. Why do terrorist think they dont have to follow the rules but everyone else does?? You must be either a muslime or a liberal democrap. For you to voice your moronic statement proves that your parents should not have been allowed to bred
Jonathan, you're writing in english, not german, russian or japanese…I wonder what country arranged for that blessing….certainly not the french.
guess in an age where we an precision guide a 500lb bomb into the window of a truck, vaporising the occupants it is very important to not have bullets that will flatten out on impact!?
Posted by: Darren Ykema at June 5, 2007 03:44 PM
Well yes, we know all about bombs vaporising people in trucks, but to the rest of the world, they appear to be American soldiers and they don’t seem to need much percision. You just wait untill they drive past because their vehicles are so heavy they can’t travel off-road.
Now then, i certainly don’t support Allen quada. but then I would not support a country that doesn’t respect human rights either. These conventions were brought in to reduce suffering where ever possible. Don’t you realise that, or is it OK if the Americans do it? You would be the first to cry, look at the big cry you are having regarding EFPs allegedly from Iran, or the new themboric warheads for the RPGs. What goes around, comes around
um," These conventions were brought in to reduce suffering where ever possible."
wrong-o reindeer lover!! actually, FMJ bullets, the kind endorsed by this Convention, are designed to wound soldiers instead of killing them. that way, you remove 3 to 4 soldiers from the fight for every one you hit, as someone has to carry the wounded soldier to an aid station, care for him, etc. the technology of 1899 was also drastically different from now. efficient hollow-point bullet designs didn't exist.
and if you REALLY think that this Convention reduced suffering on the battlefield, try looking at footage from WW I sometime. it was fought with ammunition that stuck to this Convention's limitations. no suffering there, right??
Read more: http://defensetech.org/2007/06/05/one-answer-to-h…
Defense.org
Well Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllleeee.
Jonathan, did you get your talking points from the self hating libs, Jacques Chirac, or Pukin I mean Putin?
Good way for the communist to blame us for breaking the treaty with new developments, wouldn’t you say?
Hopefully us Americans will not assist you Euro-Pee-Ons the next time you all decide you hate each other which is well overdue.
Jonathan, you wrote-
“Well, you americans have broken every other treaty, including nuclear disarmamnet and the Geneva convention on torture, so what does it matter if youo break another one?. It comes as no suprise to your former supporters. Go for it, just remember what goes around, comes around.”
Jonathan WHAT KIND OF CRACK ARE YOU TAKING?!? Yeah, our enemies are crashing airliners into buildings, beheading journalist and disembering prisoners and THE US IS THE BAD GUYS?!?!
Thanks moron-we don’t want your support. Oh-I hope you never want out aid either.
You must be Spanish or French. For your ill informed information, these raghead camel jockey’s get treated far better than our own troops do.
Now go sing some kumbaya with Bin Laden will ya.
well,Johnathan
I’m sure there are some european forums where you can bash America with your pseudo rhetoric.If you want to “reduce suffering”,start in your own backyard.History shows Europe is hardly the leader when it comes to preventing such.
anyways,
On the issue with whichever treaties that would bar us from using such ammo;I say they should be ratified.Theres no use in having such restrictions on weapons and ammunition when your enemy doesn’t follow them either.Some of these weapons treaties,with respect to the nuclear,and biological weapons disarmament,are REDICULOUS!
“The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.
It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.”
I really don’t think either Al-Sadr or Al-Qeida are “Contracting Powers”, so technically we could use anything we want on them (and should)…
Mr. JD, Thank you for the “lesson” in history & government. The facts you’ve presented are I will assume correct. Be that as it may, you do state that we do not have to abide by it.
Now is the Genevea Convention, Hague I or Hague II ??? Seems awful strange we would simply “abide” by something these days, doesnt it?
What say you about the round itself and its useage in the M9 rather than FMJ??? Isn’t that the real point here? The EFMJ gives us a (thinly veiled)opportunity to up the ammo for our troops and still “appear to be abiding by” whatever…The point is give lethality to the troops whom are asking for it. Let JAG worry themselves over the “perceptions”. I for one vote YES on giving our troops EFMJ Ammo. You Sir? YES OR NO ? Look forward to your response, and thank you for engaging.
The point is that the article presents the EFMJ as if it would violate neither the letter nor spirit of the rules of warfare or the Hague, when it infact fits the very exact definitions of what was banned. It is not, as the title states, one answer to hollow-tip bans.
That was the point _I_ tried to make, was a critique on the article itself, not the round, the treaties, or the moralities.
The fact is the US does, and likely will continue to honor the prohibition on expanding ammunition for some time, if for no other reason than they just happen to have lots of FMJ handy.
And there SHOULD be intelligent, reasoned debate by people several pay grades above us as to whether it is viable, if the DOD INSISTS on sticking with the 5.56, to field more lethal ammo for the GWOT, for all the reasons already stated. If a switch it made, go whole hog.
*This specific definition was argued against by the US and UK envoys at the time, who would have prefered a more broader ban on bullets designed to cause undu suffering as stated in other treaties, tham on a specific technology. Was one of the reeasons the Us chose not to sign.
Does anyone else think that it seems like JHP ammunition would be more in keeping with the “spirit” of the Geneva convention than the FMJ curently issued? Isn’t this whole question about troops complaining that our current ammo wounds without killing more often than it’s supposed to? Isn’t that unnecessary suffering?
I think if anything the US military has done violates the geneva convention it’s the adoption of the 5.56, or at least the change in the M16′s rate of twist or the use of 5.56 in shorter barreled platforms with less muzzle energy.
Asking for hollowpoints or new calibers like 6.8SPC is a step in the right direction. Maybe then opponents (who for whatever reason must be killed) could be killed quickly without having to experience several wounds before losing consciousness.
Johnathan is not Australian and could never hope to be one. Jim Sydney
Seems a lot of esperts here taking things out of context. The US is bound by the hague and geneva Conventions by customary and convention law as a member of the United Nations.
The Black Talon rounds are for counter-terrorist operations not counter-insurgency (Iraq and Afghanistan) except in perhaps a hostage situation. Not for general use on the battlefield. The ‘open tip’ sniper rounds are for the 300 Winchester Magnum and the ‘open tip’ is for ballistic issues related to accuracy and does not expand on impact with tissue. The 5.56mm ‘wounding’ argument is a left over from Vietnam. AThere soldiers were presenting with multiple wounds from under 25 metres wheeras in previous wars they would have died. Doctors were seeing a lot more damage than shots from 50 metres because rifle calibre projectiles fired from rifling take around 25 metres to stabilise in yaw. Finally the 9mm new rounds, which I admitedly have not seen, break the Geneva Convention because they are admitedly designed to cause ‘explosive type wounds’ on impact with tissue. if yopu want to do this with a round just use a thinner jacket as the Germans and Swedes have done with the 7.62 x 51mm rounds.
The question that should be asked is why are soldiers using 9mm pistols when they have M4 and M16 rifles, shotguns, and the M249. The space and weight of a pistol will give you 90 rounds of 5.56mm. Even though i think the 5.56mm is a crap assault rifle round it is far more lethal and accurate from a M4/M16 than a 9mm from a Beretta.
just curious, but what would you recommend as a combat rifle round?
Love the anti-european rhetoric! Makes me wonder why we’re allies; we get slagged off by UK based jihadists, the Mahdi Army, the Taliban and now the US of A.
Our guys are dying out in the same countries for the same reasons so drop the attitude.
Back up weapon system Gi Zhou. That’s why. Stoppage drills are the last thing I’m gonna due in a fight if I have a back up side arm.
Man Americans get touchy when you suggest their governments foreign policy could use some rethinking. Sheesh it’s not like most of you actually voted for who’s making the decisions anyway.
As for the ‘saving’ of anyone in Europe. The US has had the less than honourable distinction of showing up 2 – 3 years late in any worthwhile war of last century and then attempting to take all the credit. Generally after being dragged kicking and screaming into the conflict.
Since then you’ve managed to get involved in one shitty little war after another, and almost always manage to drag your mates in with you. Americans are useful at finishing wars (eventually), but should never be allowed to start them. The US government clearly is lousy at it.
Oh how I long for a return to the days of American isolationism. That was a good policy for you guys. Nobody attacked you for the better part of your existance because you weren’t out causing trouble in the rest of the world. Since WWII various US governments have managed to piss of a large proportion of the worlds population.
Stop it and maybe people will leave you alone.
To get to the point of this thread though, no the round does not comply with the Haggue convention. But then the US isn’t at war either, so go for it if you think it’ll help. More than likely, as suggested below, the military bean counters will keep issuing FMJ as there’s warehouses full of the stuff.
Take a minute and think about it guys. You are dealing with what the “press” tells you. I do not pretend to know about the press in Australia but I do know that the press in the U.S. will tell only the part of the story that sells the most papers or the greatest controversy. I spent a little time and believe that loosing the .45 was a big mistake simply because of the knock down power. Also the troops are getting frightened and excited which causes the expense of more ammo for the same job. This is only one Marine
Unfortunately I doubt the Lawyers and especially the other numerous “we are the real enemy” people would allow such rounds, most especially if they were found to be effective. What pisses me off about the Geneva conventions is it
I am being picky in highlighting this fact, sorry, but I’m not a fan of misunderstood terminology.
Fluid dynamics covers all fluids, which also includes gases, ie. air. (aerodynamics is a sub-set of fluid dynamics).
The laws of fluid dynamics also govern things such as shockwaves etc.
Therefore to make a statement that fluid dynamics suddenly become apparent when the round enters a fluid such as blood is wrong.
Fluid dynamics was applicable for the flight of the bullet too, there was just a change in the fluid properties when the round impacted a different material.
actually, the correct term is "hydro-static shock". a rapidly expanding hollow-point round sheds more energy in the target, thereby creating a large temporary wound cavity and sending a massive shock through the surrounding tissue.
The Hague Conventions do not apply in this case. The Iraqi insurgents are not signatories to the Hague Conventions, and neither are the Taliban in Afghanistan.
“The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.
It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.”
The Taliban and Iraq insurgents are a non-Contracting Power, and thus this provision has ceased to be binding.
We can use hollow points to our heart’s content.
Now, whether hollow points are a good decision (their noted difficulty in penetrating bullet-proof vests, etc) is up for grabs. They’re perfectly legal, but using them may still be dumb.
It may also be time to rethink certain aspects of the Hague Conventions. Prohibitions on technology from over a century ago may need to be looked at in a new light.
While I agree with Noddy on several points that he makes I would like to suggest the following. 1. If the ” euopeans” would get their acts together maybe just maybe we here in the USA could go back to being isolationists! I agree things wereso much better for the USA when we did notmeddle in other peoples affairs! Yes I foreign policy and the people running the sow suck! Yes I voted for these clowns. But enough of that.
As for the article about Federals new ammo ” great” I am all for hollow points, napalm, and what ever else works in killing the enemy. War is hell! the more brutal it is the less man will want to fight with each other! The Geneva Conventionis old and useless no one adheres to it any way!!
What does “if the Europeans get their act together” even mean?
Seriously, what act don’t they have together? Is the problem that they aren’t contributing enough troops to our wars so that we don’t have to throw in so many of our own? Is the problem that they aren’t declaring and fighting the wars we want them to?
Because other than that, I can’t think of what “getting their act together” means. It certainly can’t be meant in the economic sense, since they seem to be doing okay enough in that arena. And they aren’t fighting wars with one another any more, so that’s not the problem. So what, exactly, do the Europeans need to do to encourage the US to scale back it’s worldwide military operations?
That’s right – you guys have it all together. Just ask the Bosniaks – particularly the ones who thought Dutch troops would protect them from the Serbs at Srebrenica.
If you can find them, that is. Remember that little war? You know, Europe, went on for six or seven years, still sputters occasionally in Macedonia and Kosovo – right?
Brian, Vstress, C-Low et al,
The Taliban meets the requirements to be a declared combatant under the Geneva Conventions which incorporate the Hague Conventions. It had/has a political organisation, it is a disciplined military force with a rank structure, it carries its weapons openely and a recognisable uniform – the black Turban. As they took over Afghanistan they assumed the international agreements of the previous government as did the present Iraqi Goverment. The Geneva Conventions are International Law as the vast majority of nations are singantories to by way of both customary and treaty law.
I have been published on military wounding in a peer reviewed medical journal twice and lectured on it as well. I have no disagreement with the .45ACP being a better round than the 9x19mm against human tissue but its penetration sucks if the opponent has thick webbing etc on. I always believe in double tap upper thoracic and head shots anyway.
The time taken to get a pistol out of a holsetr is the same as clearing an M16/M4. Work on your clearing drills! In the Second World War and onwards very few soldiers carried a back up weapon in case there’s jam. Look after your rifle and it will look after you, this assumes a well made rifle and well made ammo which is what the M16/M4 and M855 round are.
Shock waves against human tissue work after 2,700 ft per sec and then on fluid filled organs only – eg bladder, kidney but is poor against the lungs.
If I had Dutch bodyguards in a firefight I’d shoot them first in the calf so they would have to stay and fight. Now Turks die where they stand so I’ll take them.
The reason soldiers carry pistols in Iraq and Afghanistan so they don’t get captured alive. No one wants their family to see them beheaded on line or their body after being tortured etc. In the North West Froniter of India before the Second World war, the last round was for yourself and you shot a mate if he was captured.
My comments anyway
Expanding rounds?
Doesn’t that make them easier to get trapped in Kevlar type vests?
Using standard hollow points would have been a mistake anyway for two distinct reasons. Standard hollow points will often develope errors in loading. You would have to experiment to find a round that likes your feed ramp. Lets face it no one needs a jam in a life or dead situation. The other is penitration and deflection, range is reduced, projectile is more likely to deflect and if light armor penitration was needed you would be in trouble. Work on your aim as to elliminate a threat is the better choise.
The US is not a signatory of the Hague Convention and is not bound by it.
We can use open tip or soft-point or any type of ammunition we choose. We only choose to abide by the Hague.
The post by David Woroner is correct and the current view by the US Govt.
using exploding bullets…that is a warcrime,but you are ignoring those rules anyway
Sir/Mama,
Not to get sidetracked by the legality discussion going on here.
Woroner mentioned in the last sentence of his article about wither or not this “technology” (that of a EFMJ rounds)could be used in the production of 5.56mm rounds. Federal as far as i know does not produce a EFMJ 5.56mm round. however they do produce what appears to be a fully jacketed Hollow point 5.56mm round. from what i understand this would resolve the feeding issue associated with hollow points and auto-loaders. also from my limited experience i would imagine that this round would act on the same principles (that being kinetics energy transfer between the projectiles and target causing the round to expand rather then that of fluid dynamics of the target causing the round to expand) as EFMJ rounds. however this is merely speculation as I neither have the time nor the facility to conduct side by side comparison of these two rounds. if anyone does have the time/facility to do this comparison please post the results.
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I am a police officer in the City of Detroit. This ammo is the only ammunition we are legally allowed to carry per our general orders. Too many times have we been in shootings where the ammunition, upon striking the target, failed to perform. Too many times a perpetrators jacket was taken off only to have the fully expanded shells fall out, which never penetrated the inner clothing the perpetrator was wearing, direct strikes to the skull failed to penetrate, failure to penetrate a drywall wall the scenarios are almost endless. There has even been articles written in the local papers “The Detroit Free Press” and “The Detroit News” discussing the poor performance of the ammo.
Think of it this way. A hollow point bullet doesnt expand until its inside the body and the cavity is full of water/body fluid. The EFMJ bullet however, due to the resistance of the body, the EFMJ bullet expands or can expand before penetrating inside the body. With the now larger meplat the energy required to punch through the clothing or even the skin is greatly increased. Yes, i know many will argue the point of a hollowpoint getting filled with clothing, but i’d rather have a hollowpoint acting like a FMJ over a EFMJ bullet that has a rubber bumper in the front of it.
I dont like the bullet. I strongly urge against using this ammo, especially when our troops lives are on the line.
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Since WW2, the US has had it's fingers in a lot of places where one would think they don't belong. I can see much of it as a direct result of the losses in life and treasure during WW2. By acting as world police, there should not be another waste of life on such a scale. Results, in my view, are subjective to who is looking at them. There are so many sides to this story it could drive a person mad to think about all implications of such policy. Any direction that the US foreign policy goes, it can't win favor from everyone. To let the world build up to another world war is a disaster to all. One can preach the word of how great this country or that country is but the simple truth is all are guilty of putting the world in it's present state.
at the present time the russians use a rifle bullet that is designed with a void in the nose under the jacket. upon impact the core slides forward and causes the bullet to tumble violently. a clear volition of these treaties and understandings. yet no one seems inclined to take the russkis to task. some things never change
This entire debate about the Hague Conventions is pointless and a waste of typed space. The intent of the Hague Conventions was to reduce the extent of crippling and supposedly "inhumane wounds". That trumps every definition of oxi-moronic I have ever read given the ultimate objective of warfare. Warfare is about inflicting force of will by armed confllict, period. It matters not how many folks you wound or kill outright, it is an inhumane enterprise.
The mechanics of how one achieves these objectives matters little to the victim of this ignoble endeavor. Dead is dead and crippled is little better. Having been wounded and crippled personally, I took little solace in the minor distinction. It took me 6 long years to recover well enough to return to the profession of arms. Spinal wounds really don't care what mechanism inflicts the injury. To my mind, if I and my collegues had more lethal ammunition perhaps I would have never been wounded.
I refuse to get involved in euro bashing given that history shows europeans practice warfare more often than any known civilizations on this planet. The next time europeans want to bash American foreign and military policy, they need to recall their silence in permitting the death of 6 million Jewish people and countless eastern Europeans during the last world wide conflict. Let he is without sin, cast the first stone.
Warfare was never intended to be pretty or principled. The Hague Convention was an attempt to inflict reason and principles in an unprincipled human endeavor. That is why it is likely the US Senate rejected the Hague as unenforcible and thus pointless. I also side with the numerous comments that point out the legal issue of what rules apply when non-signatories engage in conflict. In such cases, the is no binding authority and as such each is allow to wage unrestricted warfare. For those that savor the majesty of law, laws are only binding upon contracting parties…period.
Darkgent
I didn't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been brought up but the US Defense Department has said they will not pursue any expanding bullets because of the possibility of International Bodies declaring the bullets illegal after the United States has spent billions rearming.
Everyone wants to bash North America until they need assistance or help in some form or other. We’re the first ones to offer aid when a natural disaster occurs, we’re the first to come to the side of our allies when they ask for help, some aspects of our foreign policy may suck balls but when all is said and done, weren’t we the ones who had airplanes fly into our buildings killing innocent civilians? I don’t want to hear sheet about Hiroshima or Nagasaki, what about Pearl Harbor?? You don’t think women and children were killed or wounded there by an Imperial Japan hellbent on world domination? France asked us for aid during Vietnam so we were dragged in there. Almost every armed conflict we’ve been in has been deemed that we were provoked or attacked in one way or another. You want America to back off or back down? Simple answer, don’t provoke a sleeping beast. Now, I believe that the Hague AND Geneva conventions should be approached with modern intelligence and principality.