The technical expert solicited by a major news network to certify its tests of Dragon Skin body armor admitted Wednesday that the controversial vests weren’t “ready for prime time.”
In an investigative report broadcast by NBC May 20, the network used the expert opinion of Dr. Phillip Coyle — the former director of test and evaluation at the Pentagon during the Clinton administration — to certify results of side-by-side tests conducted at NBC’s expense in Germany.
In testimony submitted to the House Armed Services Committee during a June 6 hearing in the issue, Coyle stated Dragon Skin — manufactured by Fresno, Calif.-based Pinnacle Armor — was “better … against multiple rounds and in reducing blunt force trauma” than the Army’s current rifle-resistant Interceptor armor.
But after being confronted with conflicting information by lawmakers who questioned the NBC test results and provided Army-supplied data of vest failures from a May 2006 test, Coyle backed away from his staunch defense of Dragon Skin.
“You’re saying today … that you cannot say that it’s ready for prime time. That’s your testimony?” Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.) asked Coyle.
Coyle agreed that the NBC tests fell short of proving Dragon Skin was ready for fielding.
Sitting beside Coyle at the hearing, Pinnacle president Murray Neal put forward a vigorous, if disjointed, defense of his product, telling lawmakers in written testimony the Army was manipulating test results, conducted unfair shots on his armor and released contradictory data to lawmakers and the media.
“Nothing jives, nothing makes sense,” Neal told committee members. “The information coming from the Army is fraught with inconsistencies.”
While calling the failure of his vest to stop a round on the second shot of the Army test a “once in a while” occurrence, Neal denied Army claims that a dozen more rounds penetrated his Dragon Skin vests.
He argued x-ray photos of one vest the Army claims failed showed the Dragon Skin disks had stopped the round.
“The bullet did not go through the armor,” Neal said flatly.
(See page 12 of the PEO Soldier brief)
Army officials responded by showing lawmakers a video clip of Neal inspecting the same vest after a test shot, watching engineers dig the penetrating round out of ballistic clay backing.
“Are you telling me if you were wearing this vest … and that round hit you in the chest, would that have killed you or not?” a skeptical Rep. Gene Taylor (D-Miss.) asked Neal.
“No,” he replied.
See written testimony of:
Lieutenant General N. Ross Thompson III (pdf)
Military deputy/director, Army Acquisition Corps
Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Acquisition, Logistics, and Technology)Brigadier General Mark Brown (pdf)
Program Executive Officer (PEO)
U.S. ArmyMr. Roger Smith (pdf)
Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy, Littoral and Mine Warfare
Department of the NavyColonel Ed Smith (pdf)
Product Group Director, Combat Equipment and Support Systems
U.S. Marine CorpsMr. Douglas D. Thomas (pdf)
Executive Director for the Air Force Office of Special Investigations
U.S. Air ForceColonel Kevin Noonan (pdf)
Program Executive Office Special Operations Forces (SOF) Warrior
U.S. Special Operations CommandMr. William Bill M. Solis (pdf)
Director, Defense Capabilities and Management Team
Government Accountability Office (GAO)
The Armed Services Committee hearing is the latest round in the long-simmering debate over Pinnacle’s claims that its armor system — which uses a series of linked ceramic disks wrapped around a Soldier’s body to stop armor-piercing rifle rounds — is better than the Army-issued Interceptor vest that uses four rigid ceramic plates.
At the request of Hunter and Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Texas), the Army conducted a so-called “first article test” for Dragon Skin armor at a private ballistics lab in Maryland last year to see if the Dragon Skin technology met Army specifications.
Those tests resulted in 13 penetrations in 48 shots, the Army claims, including a full penetration on the second shot of the first test vest.
Investigators with NBC conducted their own series of tests at a German lab this spring, firing dozens of armor-piercing rounds at both Dragon Skin and a vest they said contained Army-issued plates, though Coyle cast some doubt on whether they were the same plates used by Soldiers in the field.
The NBC tests showed Dragon Skin absorbing many more rifle rounds than the Army vest, prompting Coyle’s assertion that Dragon Skin was better than Interceptor armor.
Coyle, Neal and NBC are calling for another series of independent, side-by-side tests to prove once and for all which armor system is better.
“The best way to resolve this matter would be for the U.S. Army Test and Evaluation Command to conduct comparable side-by-side tests of both Interceptor and Dragon Skin body armor,” Coyle said.
While Hunter subjected both Neal and Coyle to harsh questioning over their claims, the California lawmaker agreed that another round of tests is the only thing that will put the issue to rest.
“We need to straight away, in an expeditious way, to find out if there’s value to this system,” Hunter said. “And if there is value, we need to extract it as soon as possible and get it to the troops in the field.”
– Christian
{ 18 comments… read them below or add one }
Buy pinnacle stock now! Keep your eyes to DT, and have your finger on the ‘sell’ button.
Why? Does it matter if the vest is too heavy?
It won’t… they made Humvee’s heavier than their designed to handle… and they went with it.. Congress will act like ‘dad’ and tell ya to do something even if it’s not in your best interest.
Accept this dad… has about 200+ personalities…. all trying to impress someone else.
Good point…
However, even if through independent testing, DragonSkin proved to offer better protection, I still don’t know that I’d want to deal with the loss of mobility and endurance associated with the extra weight.
That said, I don’t have rounds flung at me everyday either, so that experience might change my outlook.
I personally don’t have a problem with Congress looking into it. WHY? Because with all the bullshit lies and cronyism I’ve seen in the last 6 years, I don’t believe a damn thing I hear anymore.
If it plays out (as it seems) that DS aint ready for prime time, then so be it – at least we got to the bottom of it.
If the Army had stayed out of the political propaganda game, and if they had handled this a little better from the start, then there would be no need for these hearings.
NOW, can we get back to the real things that matter to the troops: i.e. – defining their MILITARY mission, supplying them with the Mine-Resistant Vehicles that they REQUESTED AEONS AGO, etc…
The problem I have is that they have already tested the Dragon Skin and it failed. The president of Pinnacle was on site for the test and he did not have any objections.
If Pinnacle has made changes and improvements to the product then I say re-test. Otherwise let it go, the vest failed move on.
This is one more example of the Congress sticking its nose where it doesn’t belong. They won’t be happy until every soldier is sporting a 1″ titanium plate suit, all in the name of safety.
That’s what happens when people don’t realize that in war things get broken and people die. If this bunch of ignorant dimwits were sitting in office in 1944 D-Day would still be in its planning phase. They all need to do something that does not come naturally….shut the F up and concentrate on their near criminal pork projects.
I can image how frustrated Gen. Washington was when dealing with the same problem….
What really angers me is that we all already know that the media and the demon-crats don’t care one wit about the military. Witness: We need to remove our military from our unjust war in Iraq so we can send them to Darfur! Only a pure idiot could claim this with a straight face. Only another pure idiot could promote it in print, radio, or TV.
This whole scenario is just a dog and pony show, smoke and mirrors, useless hype.
The one who looses is the soldier.
The real problem is that the American taxpayer has no faith the Defense Dept’s acquisition process at all, and for good reason. Replace “complicated and rigourous” with “byzantine and full of back room deals” and I think you have the right description for how weapon systems are procured.
While it is unfortunate that some are second guessing the military on this particular issue, the fact is have brought this on themselves. If they want people to stop “harassing” them then they need to prove to the American people that they can deploy the right system at the right time.
One thing for sure is going to come of this:
Mr. Neal is going to come out either looking very very good, or he is going to come out looking very very bad.
I don’t think we’ll have to wait long to see the resuls of a re-test Congress has requested
kilroy,
Setting aside all of your ad hominem attacks, I will take some blame for your rant. My reference to demon-crats was harse and not specific. I was specifically refering to the DC crowd, not the political beliefs of those in uniform. I have tremendous respect for anyone who will wear a uniform (USA, USMC, USAF, USN, etc). This would include you as you imply in your blog that you have
“If the Army had stayed out of the political propaganda game, and if they had handled this a little better from the start, then there would be no need for these hearings.”
The Army did stay out of the propaganda game, which is why Pinnacle had free run to put their story out for a year. Understand the context of Karl Masters’ comment on PS.com – it was not meant to be a public statement, but somewhat tongue-in-cheek advice to friends and colleagues. In my opinion, that adds to the credibility of his statement. He was confiding his honest, heartfelt opinion on DS to friends who might have otherwise entrusted their lives to substandard gear.
Alright, Jeff.
I’m sorry if I went tactical on ya’ there. But honestly, have just seen to much bickering back and forth – accompanied by a never-ending political agenda – on both sides – that is nothing but distracting and diverting us from the real issues that now face us.
Now we can choose to look for and dwell on the things that seperate us (like, say – 500 people in SF who are completely wacked out A-holes) or we can choose to come together and find the things that Unite us – in order to fight together for the thing we cherish the most; Our Country and our People. (and yes, even Nancy Pelosi, with all her SF liberal female BS is still considered one of US).
I’m just sick and tired of all the Bullshit and spin, you know? Bush CLAIMS Iraq is this and Iraq is that – then why doesn’t he grow a pair in re-instate the draft so we can actually have more than 150,000 troops fighting this war? Why? Because he’s just as much a political schmuck as Nancy is. I could go on and on… obviously… But will just suffice to say – that after 7 years of Spin and political BS, I have no more tolerance for any of it – especially from a bunch of mouthpieces and hacks who have never served a damn day in their lives (i.e. – everyone is this current administration and their media mouthpieces. Is there even ONE of these jokers that have ONE DAY’s combat experience? didn’t think so) yet they claim to have some authority and wisdom that we should all bow down to. Please. Spare me the shit-talk and make the hard decisions necessary to deal with issues in front of us. All the political “blame the other party’ shit is getting us no where.
but do as you will. I’ll probably be dead before the end of the year anyway, so you won’t have to listen to me shout the cold truth anymore… and can go back to your propaganda name-calling all you want.
i’m out.
I think that Pinnacle got exposed that they have been marketing fiction and preying on scared soldiers and their families. Their innuendo about the conspiracy of the military industrial complex got shot down, when one of the panel members pointed out that his office found pinnacle and directed the test last May.
Another thing is how can something that is heavier, and doesn’t pass the test be better than what we give the troops? I never did understand why nobody got that part of the arguement.
If pinnacle can make armor that weighs the same as Interceptor will be determined in the next round of tests, but it is very unlikely that will happen, since the design is inherently 30% heavier, and no one can fix that problem.
Side-by-side tests? It won’t happen. They test against a set of requirements. The drama connected to Dragon Skin is amazing.
I say we let the Marine Corps test it. Get some results minus the politics and drama.
why is this argument still going when the youtube movies clearly show the creator of interceptor admitting that dragon skin was by far superior?
my god, i think i just won the entire debate.
again, take a look at SFTT.org, apparently ARL, in Maryland tested two DS vests about 3 weeks ago. These tests followed FAT protocol for a “high temp” test. The number of shot and placement of the shots for these vests actually exceeded ESAPI specification. It is probably also noteworthy to mention that every single round was defeated, and yes they did use 7.62 x63mm AP2 rounds. The Army is going to have a lot of explaining to do. See the following link for more specifics on this story:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=33
The problem I have is that they have already tested the Dragon Skin and it failed. The president of Pinnacle was on site for the test and he did not have any objections.
If Pinnacle has made changes and improvements to the product then I say re-test. Otherwise let it go, the vest failed move on.