Comments on: The MRAP Cage Fight

By: Tankguy

Tankguy — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:42:15 +0000

Judas Priest, Mike.
Do you keep that phrase in the cut-and-paste cache permamnently? You are like an uniformed parrot.
Now to debunk your incorrect claims. It is a proven fact that your figures on the survivability of the M113 are spurious at best. The vehicle is not used as frequently as other platforms in Iraq, thus, is not exposed to the same threat. If you would ever answer your AKO mail, you would find a link to the database to prove this. The numbers are staggeringly in favor of the Stryker over the M113 in better survivability. The M113 only offers protection from 7.62mm with base armor, the Stryker offers 14.5 mm protection with it’s base armor.
Your claims of off road maneuverability are simply laughable. You keep making these claims and posting videos of a LAV or Strker stuck in some place or other, but no fact, no figures. I have pulled out way more M113s in my 20+ years in Armor then I ever have for Stryker. I in fact pulled a M113 with a Stryker once. How’s that for ironic?

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By: M113FAN

M113FAN — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 08:07:10 +0000

M113’s don’t do well against mines. Hull is flat bottomed and too close to ground.
MRAP vehicles because they are high off the ground and have V hulls aren’t subjected to as much energy from a given mine or IED as the M113.
Some MRAP vehicles will stop a 50 cal. An M113 won’t.
Stryker is not good against mine. Too flat and close to the ground. In general Stryker was a mistake.

By: Mike Sparks

Mike Sparks — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:44:09 +0000

FACTS
1. Light tracked, low ground pressure M113 Gavins offer the best closed terrain, cross-country mobility possible, high ground pressure wheeled Strykers, Humvees and MRAPS are restricted to roads where they will be constantly blown up. You can TALK all day about “TTP” but if you are stuck to roads in wheels you are stuck with fatally flawed routes. The MRAPsters in Congress mean well and they are being forced on the services; at least they are better than flat-bottom Strykers.
2. Our NATO allies and large segments of the U.S. Army now reject the entire wheeled-egomaniac-in-trucks mentality after seeing the Humvees and Strykers get incinerated daily in Iraq/Afghanistan. They should have realized this by reason and thinking ahead and many of us warned them, but 20–20 hindsight beats no hindsight. They now want tracks be it from fantasy FCS, M113 Gavins, Bradleys or Abrams now. They want to win not make excuses and hear prejudices from use-victims about “how great their trucks art”—compared of course to their 5th point of contact.
3. Armored vehicle design is a complex issue, if you cannot hold more than 1 concept/set of facts in your head don’t get involved.
To create a tracked vehicle LIGHT enough to go through closed terrain, it needs to be made of THICK aluminum alloy not thin steel. Furthermore, don’t have the fuel inside like old M113s and present Bradleys have to feed a fire to melt the aluminum. Wheeled trucks made of thin steel even v-shaped will soon meet their high explosive “Waterloo” because they are intrinsically 28% less space/weight efficient than tracks and wheeled suspension/drivetrains simply cannot take the needed extra armor to remain “cat” and not become “mouse”. Go ask the MRAP racketeers how their suspensions are faring with all the weight that is being placed on their vehicles? Wheeled trucks strung-out along roads/trails they must use as the laughing enemy awaits.

By: Ripper

Ripper — Fri, 20 Jul 2007 21:27:59 +0000

Hmmm, aluminum alloy cage to lighten the weight? Excuse my ignorance about this, but doesn’t aluminum sometimes ignite? Wasn’t that a problem with aluminum superstructures on ships during the Falkins war? If aluminum ignites then what are we doing putting it on armored vehicles?

By: demophilus

demophilus — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:15:47 +0000

A.D.:
All good points, but I was joking about using MRAPs as bunks, dude. Point is, it’s going to be hard to keep parts for 10 different systems in stock in the middle of a war zone. That’s a recipe for making hors de combat yardbirds. WCS, some of our NCOs need to anticipate using them as hard shelter, or improvised fighting positions.

By: Ahzee Dahak

Ahzee Dahak — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:24:12 +0000

Demophilus– I think that shorting the procurement cycle is one very good answer to the problem. But I think we’ve got a systemic problem, and those usually require lots of changes, and not just one big one.
One issue with shorted procurement time is the incredible expense of procuring several divisions of hardware. Right now, we equip each of our divisions with essentially identical gear, so units can fall in on equipment already in theater. If we dispensed with prepositioning ships, and committed to enough sea/airlift to get men and equipment into the fight, we could move away from an equipment monoculture. We could change tack with one division, get them into the fight with quickly procured variant gear, and expand or cut procurement from there.
I think another issue is the incredible tail our forces drag with them. Our vehicles are terribly fuel inefficient, and our desert/tropical BDUs are based around upping water intake to compensate for temperature. Then there’s the ancient mistake of building large fortified garrison posts, which geographically limits us, allows a dispersed insurgency to take the initiative, and lets them know exactly where to hit us. It sounds like the recent loss of two F-16s might be attributable to this problem. And these garrisons eat up still larger supply lines.
You asked how many people can sleep in an M113. The A4 variant (not purchased) can fit 12 as an IFV, or 5–6 bunkable. The M113A4 has also been used as a testbed for Hybrid drives, greatly extending range and endurance. My gut instinct leans toward independently deployable companies, with a light enough supply line to be air-fed, roving around their deployment zone. This would fly the flag, act as a patrol-in-force, and move us part way to avoiding commonly used supply/patrol routes on which it’s trivial to emplace IEDs.