After months of heated debate, the Army will conduct a side-by-side test shoot next month with its standard-issued carbine to see how well it can withstand extreme dust and sand environments.
The tests, which will be conducted at the Army’s Aberdeen Test Center in Maryland, will include three other rifles some say are better constructed to withstand the grueling environmental conditions often found in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The service yielded to critics — particularly lawmakers in Congress — who recently ratcheted up the debate over whether the current M4 carbine, manufactured by Colt Defense, is more susceptible to jamming in dusty conditions than other weapons used by Soldiers and special operators.
“The Army agreed to conduct testing of four carbine designs in an extreme dust environment,” said Lt. Col. Timothy Chyma, product manager for individual weapons with Program Executive Office Soldier, in an email to Military.com.
“The test results will inform the U.S. Army Infantry Center in the development of a potential new carbine requirement as part of their ongoing capabilities based assessment.”
In April, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) insisted in a letter to then-acting Army Secretary Pete Geren that better weapons technology is available that can guard against stoppages stemming from dust and sand interfering with the firing mechanism of the M4.
The Army’s carbine uses a gas system that evidence shows is susceptible to stoppages unless it is frequently cleaned.
The shoot off will test the capabilities of the M4/M16 operating system against three other rifles: the Heckler and Koch-built HK416, the FNH USA-designed Mk16 SOCOM Combat Assault Rifle and the previously-shelved, H&K-manufactured XM8 carbine.
All three competitors use a gas-piston operating system that requires less maintenance and has demonstrated in some tests that it can fire accurately even if completely fouled with sand, dust and mud.
“Considering the long standing reliability and lethality problems with the M16 design, of which the M4 is based, I am afraid that our troops in combat might not have the best weapon,” Coburn wrote in April. “A number of manufacturers have researched, tested and fielded weapons which, by all accounts, appear to provide significantly improved reliability.”
A December 2005 Center for Naval Analyses study commissioned by the Army indicated the M4 — when properly cleaned — exhibited few stoppages. But 20 percent of those who had complications with their M4s said they experienced bad enough jams that they had to pull out of the fight.
Many special operations units favor the HK416, due in part to its increased reliability. This month, Special Operations Command began operational tests on the Mk16 and the heavier-caliber Mk17 to eventually replace its M4 and HK416 stocks.
The sand tests will include 10 samples of each weapon through which engineers will fire 6,000 rounds. Each weapon and loaded magazine will be exposed to “extreme dust” for 30 minutes then test fired with 120 rounds, Chyma said.
“Each weapon will be wiped down and lubricated every 600 rounds with a full cleaning every 1,200 rounds,” Chyma added. “The firing, collection of data and analysis of data is expected to take approximately five months.”
Coburn said in his April letter to Geren that even though the M4 works, better weapons exist. He was so insistent that the Army compete new M4 contracts to outfit its expanded brigade combat teams that he placed a hold on the Geren nomination to become Army secretary until the service relented, a Coburn staffer confirmed.
The Army’s willingness to hold the limited “sandstorm shoot-off” released the nomination, and Geren was confirmed by the Senate July 13.
The side-by-side sand tests “will be part of the ongoing Army assessment and requirements process — with the ultimate goal of continuing to provide the best possible weapons and equipment to our Soldiers,” said Army spokesman, Lt. Col. William Wiggins.
{ 57 comments… read them below or add one }
Unfortunately, the Army neglected to bring another two piston M-16 models into the current shoot-off: POF-USA and L&W’s models. I personally have one from POF-USA and it’s great to shoot.
I think they might also have included the Magpul Masada, although I’m not sure where that is in terms of production. I mean, how expensive is it to include a few extra guns?
I have a gut feeling that the Army would not do this test if they did not know the outcome already.
Which to me means it’s a rigged test because the parameters are not realistic and favor the M-4.
That’s usually the way the Army works.
By not having the POF and LWRC models it already is setting off my BS alert.
“The side-by-side sand tests “will be part of the ongoing Army assessment and requirements process – with the ultimate goal of continuing to provide the best possible weapons and equipment to our Soldiers,”"
Going back to the dragon armour debate…. I thought the army doesn’t do Side By Side Comparisions!??!
LOL, good catch. What happend to “we only test to the standard”?
finally…. And even if it’s rigged a little, it’s going to be a hard sell not to say one of the piston operated weapons is better in this case.
The 416 just attaches right to the old lower reciever of the m4/m16, has the same wieght and fixes a number of other minor but not show stopper issues with the m16. They are cheap and if you already are trained up on the m4/16 it will take a very short time to train you up on the 416. Oh and it’s cheap, while many of these other weapons are great quality and I would be happy to see the DOD buy them, I think the 416 is the best ‘bang’ for the buck. Until we can find a very reliable caseless system the 416 is the best bet around.
By not having the POF and LWRC models it already is setting off my BS alert.
+1
A 4 rifle shoot out, 2 of which come from the same company? When the army was looking for a new pistol a couple years ago (since cancelled), dozens of different models were tested together.
I wonder why in the heck the AK-47 or -74 weren’t included in the test?
Also, as to rigging the test, I wonder if 600 rounds is a reasonable minimum. What would happen if it were actually 1000?
Rigged tests?
If you ask that question, they you should also ask this one:
If army switches from the M4, how much bribe money…huh…I mean campaign contributions will Sen Colburn collect from H+K and FN?
Why is this war looking more and more like vietnam every day?
Bad rifles. Donald McNamarra err Rumsfeld. If we don’t fight them there we will have to fight them here. There is light at the end of the tunnel versus we have turned a corner. Surge instead of Linebacker I.
‘Cept this time it is the Reps that got us in this mess and the Dems want to cut and run.
Now we have replacements for the old WW2 vets at the VFW. Maybe that was the plan all along?
Are they going to use wet lubes or dry lubes in the test?
What is a Mk16 and Mk17? Does this refer to the HK416 and HK417?
Yes it’s referring to HK rifles.
Don’t be surprised if the M-4 comes through with shinning colors of GREEN for Colt.
Unless like someone said the fix is in payoff wise and the HK or FN rifles win.
I will never trust the Army, I learned that the hard way.
It’s been a while since I fed a troll, so I’ll have a go at the lack of AK derivatives in the test. I suspect we’ll find that every carbine in the test will be an M16 derivative of one shade or another. This makes sense both in terms of training and logistics. In any event, since it’s a carbines-only contest, the proper AK variant would be the AK-102.
I’ll be watching this one closely. Whatever the results, some crowd or other is sure to cry foul.
What is a Mk16 and Mk17? Does this refer to the HK416 and HK417?
No, the Mk16 and Mk17 are the SCAR, made by FN. They are the new SOCOM rifles they’re getting ready to field. Mk16 fires 5.56, Mk17 fires 7.62, you just have to change the upper receiver.
Yes the MK’s are the SCAR’s, you’re right. I was confused.
This whole thing is total BS. Anybody who knows about guns knows putting gas back into the system is going to foul it. Having a piston is going to be better for operation as far as cleaning and full auto fire.
If you ever cleaned an M-16 you notice how sticky it is after being fired, just great for attracting dirt and sand.
Just another case of the ignorance of our elected officials, due to spending too much time trying to be politicians and not living in the real world.
I wonder how many of them ever served in the armed forces?
I think the better M-16 variants on the market today actually are using aluminum billet machined lower receivers. They even going with one piece billet machined uppers connected to the hand guard as with the Vltor unit.
I read “AK” recently. In it Hackworth unburied an AK47 in Vietnam that in the ground a year. It fired without cleanup. There were also routinely dragged through sand pits to test their ruggedness. Like to see an M16/M4 do that.
EM-2 anyone? Read about the history of this British 1951 rifle and you agree that the US army has a history of making “superb” decisions.
“The side-by-side sand tests “will be part of the ongoing Army assessment and requirements process – with the ultimate goal of continuing to provide the best possible weapons and equipment to our Soldiers,”
I don’t want to sound cynical but the Army has been looking for a new rifle for the past 20+ years and only God knows how many millions have been spent in endless studies, reviews and requirements development. You are would think that by now somebody would have a clue.
At this rate, we will get a new rifle ….umm when my unborn grandson enlists?
Good Morning Folks,
With Colt holding $478 million (DoD contracts 7/27/07) in contracts for the M-4A1 what does all this mean, nadah, like in nothing.
Colt has been doing these “rigged” sand box side by sides since 1967(first with the M-14E2, after it had been taken out of service) and has always won. The answer is also always the same, GI’s/Marines don’t keep their weapons clean.
To may former Army/Marine Generals working for Colt or on the board of Colt to lose. End of story.
Allons,
Byron Skinner
I would like to think this is a serious test. If so I would like to see it not only opened up to more models/manufacturers like POF-USA, LWRC, FN’s F2000, Magpul Masada, etc. but also other calibers. With doubts about the range & lethality of the 5.56mm, I’d like to see how each manufacturer can handle the same models in 6.8mm SPC and 6.5mm Grendel (along with an honest eval of the performance for each cartridge).
If the rifle itself is not flawed (as the SA80 seems to be), the proper cleaning is just discipline. My guys knew they would not eat before their weapon was clean. To my standards. And I did not eat till after them. Rifles were cleaned very quickly before every meal. Are there better rifles, most likely, much better, I don’t think so. It’s the rifleman, not the rifle. And realistically the cost of procurring (guess here) 2.5 million rifles and spares as well as changing all the training (cook to armorer) is prohibitive. There are guys who may be 66 who could pick up an M16 class weapon and maintain it.
If we have stopped being a nation of marksmen AND can’t maintain weapons, maybe we should just procure AKs.
sms
The point is not whether a soldier can shoot or clean his weapon. He should be able to shoot and cleaning your weapon should be second nature even if you are using a pea shooter.
The point is; if this country wants to keep on fighting an ever increasingly sophisticated and better trained enemy we should make steps to out pace them.
The longer they fight the better they will get at it. With help from their friends and even maybe some of our supposed friends they are getting better weapons and training. They are becoming more determined and professional. Their weapons and tactics are becoming more sophisticated.
One shot, one kill is the infantry standard for a main battle rifle. Let’s go back to that mentality and let the enemy know it. If a U.S. soldier has you in his sights, you’re dead. That would be a very good physiological advantage for us.
So, how do you reproduce the sand, dust and heat of an environment such as Iraq…in Maryland…in July?
My money would be on Magpul’s Masada because by virtue of its design, all you have to do is swap the bolt head, barrel, and magazine (which are all AR15/M16 compatable parts except for the new barrel nut and gas piston tacked on) and you go from 5.56 to whatever AR platform/mag well compatable cartridge you want.
For better over all capability, the F2000 with the Masada style quick change barrel/bolt combo (or a Magpul developed PDR/Masada based bullpup) would be the best of both worlds with shorty to full length barrels and a gas piston system for various jobs.
But hey, what do I know, I’m just a talanted amature.
How do you duplicate Iraq weather?
Answer: West Texas in July.
OH, and my previous comments would be, of course if the opened the competition to “unconventional” layouts. I think the HK piston upper is the only acceptable “main stream” unit that would be somewhat acceptable if its more reliable. I think the limit was to “mature systems” and though POF and LWRC systems are somewhat mature, they don’t have the production capability of their big name cousins (Colt, HK, etc.) so they arn’t even considered…the one that bothers me more is why FN didn’t get in on the action, as the F2000 is a mature system, and with a few tweeks it could be (despite the bullpup config) a good compromise over the M4 (full length barrel as opposed to short barrel/reduced ballistics)
Then again, I just answered my question. US procurement doesn’t like bullpups.
I recently fired just over 1000 rounds of NATO Ball through a Steyr AUG A1 without cleaning. Granted it was not in a sand environment, but the one stoppage that occoured was fixed by increasing the gas at the plug. Not bad for a Piston and spring “BULLPUP” rifle that is over 20 years old
If the US Miltary want a weapon that durable, fairly inexpensive and has proved itself to be the weapon of choice for many over the past 30 years all they have to do is look at the AK-47′s. They certainly seem to work well for the terrorist.
West Texas is right!!!
Isn’t the fact that cleaning is being done in this test at all a sign that the army is gearing this to make the M4 look good?
I mean, the M4 will work for 600 rounds, but that’s not the problem. C’mon, the HKs and AKs can work forever without ANY cleaning.
The best test would be 10,000 rounds, a sand bath, action open, then 10,000 more rounds, testing for accuracy as well. No cleaning. Last gun with 0 malfunctions is the winner.
Oh, and put the AK in there just to make all the others look bad.
Yeah, it seems like the bar is being set low enough for the M4 to pass. Here’s a segment of a D efense Industry Daily article on how the Army can queer the test and make the M4 pass:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/#testing
The HK 416 used today by DELTA FORCE and other Piston Operated weapons used by Some SF units such as the XRC from Robinson Armament assault rifles and the new Tivor developed by the highly advanced Israelies are just some weapons our infantry troops should be using…not the same crummy M16 my grandpa used in vietnam!
The m16/m4 series works fine as it is….it had problems in Vietnam, but so did the M1 Abrams (in Desert storm) and yet you do not hear about how horrible a weapon the M1 Abrams is.
It works, use it. The m16 was made to be used by professionals, and the AK by communist peasants.
That said, I certainly would like to see some of the competitors release a civilian version that’s reasonably priced.
I am OK with the M16′s but i hate M4′s
M16s have a long enough barrel to achieve sufficient velocity to give the 5.56 reasonable stopping power. in the shorter barrel of the M4 the expanding gases of the 5.56x45mm cartridge don’t have adequate room to achieve velocities surpassing the minimum velocity for the terminal yawing of the bullet upon impact of the given target. that being 2700+ fps. And this lends to a decreased ballistic coefficient.
I am OK with the M16′s but i hate M4′s
M16s have a long enough barrel to achieve sufficient velocity to give the 5.56 reasonable stopping power. in the shorter barrel of the M4 the expanding gases of the 5.56x45mm cartridge don’t have adequate room to achieve velocities surpassing the minimum velocity for the terminal yawing of the bullet upon impact of the given target. that being 2700+ fps. And this lends to a decreased ballistic coefficient.
Remember when the military decided to bag the .45ACP. You should research how they queered up that test. The only samples that actually tested well were a few old beater Colts that were thrown in as an additional test control. An effort was made to hide that fact and buy their crappy 9mm’s.
Guys, unfortunately M4 and M16 aren
I would like to see the side-by-side test opened up to more models/manufacturers.I have put apx.2500 rounds through my Bushmaster in 1 day.Without cleaning just by extream lubrication.
Althougt I was not in a fine dust or sand enviroment.
Sure I had minor malfunctions but nothing to saver. Or None that needed great attention or time to clear.
The Army and the Dept.of Defense geniuses allways are looking at the dollars and no sense!It’s obvious these guys with a chest full of silk and medals and the suit and tie guys in Washington,need to be dropped off in Tikrit,or Mosul, with our current weapons and a few of our soldiers with the newer tested H&K’s(that don’t jam as much),and see how long it takes for the non-actives to beg for tradzees with their support team(if any of them are left)!Tight head spacing and other specs. in our current weapons makes for a great feeling when shooting at a clean range,but when we are not playing home games and are in an oppents home town we need weapons that have more versatility,RELIABILITY,and maybe even a little more power,for long range and knockdown!As long as bush wants to pour money into this war why don’t we make good use of it!The Air force needs alot for the new planes,a given,but the guy’s on the ground could use a slight advantage for a change.Come on!Just do it!Enough with the talk.If they want to talk,talk to the mothers of the soldiers who died from a three second sove pipe jam!They died for nothing!I hope the bigshots can sleep at night!They know what is right,but there is allway’s a real reson why they don’t get what we need.Personal gain!Even an ak-47 was designed to shoot in the mud in the 1940′s!There in every corner of the world,and working fine!We could stock our army’s with two each for free with what we have destroyed in captured caches and have less casulties in the furure.Something HAS to be done!What is it going to take??A new weapon?There,I’M Done!Let’s fight for what is right!
Now their was a test well done to cover your ass. I see they were careful not to include either the Mini 14 or the Springfield updated rifles. VERY GOOD IDEA – GIVE EM AN ATA BOY FOR PROTECTING THEIR TENDER RUMS. I wouldn’t want to be responcible for haveing those results included either, if my job was at stake. Someone may start asking “What’s the deal here?” or other unwanted questions. Either of those two are in a leage apart from the Matel stuff. Then someone is sure going to happen to notice the prices and blow a gasket – “Twice the price and not even half the rifle? What’s going on?”
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Unfortunately, the Army neglected to bring another two piston M-16 models into the current shoot-off: POF-USA and L&W’s models. I personally have one from POF-USA and it’s great to shoot.
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I saw on the internet a company that modified the gas tube tube on a m4 and replaced it with a bar and at the end of the gun were the gas usally goes into the tube to make the upper receiver eject the round and the action is mechanical not gas operated it cut down on jamming tremendously and i cant remember the company
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