We’re working on our UAV entries, folks, but I wanted to pass this along to those who follow the body armor debate like I do.
An alert DT reader passed along this release from the Department of Justice stating categorically that Murray Neal over sold his Dragon Skin SOV 2000 Level III armor as NIJ certified.
The release follows:
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ANNOUNCES FINDINGS ON DRAGON SKIN BODY ARMOR
WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Department of Justice (DOJ), Office of Justice Programs (OJP) announced today that it has determined that the Pinnacle Armor, Inc. bulletproof vest model SOV 2000.1/MIL3AF01, is not in compliance with the requirements of OJP’s National Institute of Justice (NIJ) voluntary compliance testing program for bullet-resistant body armor. Effective immediately, this body armor model will be removed from the NIJ list of bullet-resistant body armor models that satisfy its requirements. Pinnacle Armor, Inc. is the maker of “dragon skin” body armor.
NIJ, OJP’s research, development, and evaluation component, has reviewed evidence provided by the body armor manufacturer and has determined that the evidence is insufficient to demonstrate that the body armor model will maintain its ballistic performance over its six-year declared warranty period.
(Gouge: JD)
{ 25 comments… read them below or add one }
They certified the gear before fully testing it? They certify something and then they give it the wear and tear or hyper time test? I wonder what people that bought this gear a few years ago think about this revelation… and their current level of ballistic protection.
This is such a bunch of crap. The Dragon Skin level-III *just* got certified a little while ago. They’re only pulling the plug now as a way to punish Pinnacle for having mistakenly made a false claim. Murray Neal mispoke in citing his armor as certified before it wasn’t. But it *did* get certified, it was show to pass.
Crap like this, politics taking precedence over superior equipment, will get our fighting men killed needlessly, as they’ll be forced to continue wearing the inferior and substandard SAPI-plate-based Interceptor armor.
Does this statement include all Pinnacle armors, or just the Level III? Does this mean that the Level IV is still certified?
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=33
Dragon Skin Passes ESAPI-FAT Test
http://www.sftt.org/
The army’s test that showed Dragon Skin failing is now brought into question.
This story has got me so confused I can’t see straight. Both sides seem credible and yet both sides contradict each other. Well Christian, you’ve been to Iraq…would you wear dragon skin while deployed?
I think the reason that both sides seem credible is the fact that Pinnacle is saying what the vest can do. However, the DOJ and the Army seem to be referring to the long term durability of Dragon Skin. I’ve tried to keep up with this story, and I did see some x-ray photos of the dragon skin armor in which the armor discs had fallen out of place, and started to collect at the bottom of the vest.
Having seen how this vest is assembled, it’s not surprising that that may happen. So, I really believe the dragon skin is superior, but until they prevent it from falling apart, I’m not sure it is the better choice. Besides, both the Army and Marine Corps have decided on a replacement for the interceptor, that offers much better protection, and load carrying capabilities.
Before I start this posting my thoughts, just FYI to answer some questions:
Pinnacle Armor only has, or rather had one model of Dragon Skin NIJ certified, this was the level III version, the level IV model is still “pending” at this point.
Oh and by they way, as far as WWII and body armor is concened, the ceramic technology did not exist to provide any sort of feasible solution, however, projectiles will constantly be adapting to new armor solutions and in turn armor will have to adapt to defeat new types of armor piercing projectiles. And yes, the current armor systems both level IV dragon skin and the ESAPI plates can defeat .30-06 armor piercing rounds (also known as 7.62x63mm, if I’m not mistaken this is the round used for First Article Tests)
Now on this new NIJ news……..This has nothing to do with the ballistic testing of the armor. If you read the full press release you will see that the 6 year warranty is in question. The problem here is that NIJ wants Pinnacle to provide proof that the warranty is good for 6 years, but the provide no criteria as how to meet this requirement. This would lead me to believe more that this is just more political BS. In response to this pinnacle will be submitting 6 and 7 year old vests for testing.
I am glad that people are paying attention to the SFTT posts, some important information has come from that website, as was mentioned here, the ESAPI FAT protocol level IV “high temp test”. Also note the post they made about Col. Jim Magee’s (USMC Ret.) written testimony for HASC. Some important info that has come out of his testimony are the following.
1.) the ceramic plates were provided by Protective Products International, although they are not approved to supply the Army, they do supply the Marines. I don’t think anyone can contest the integrity of these plates from PPI any longer.
2.) According to Magee, NBC went to Germany to do the tests because the Army threatened the US labs with “repercussions” if they allowed NBC to use their labs.
3.) those who doubt Magee’s credentials please go to the following link: http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=32
One more thing…..David Crane wrote an article on a little while back on http://www.military.com about dragon skin, whatever happened to the test they did at ATC a while back and the “classified” results. Go to the following link to read his input:
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_060420_dragon3,,00.html
Book’em:
You make some very good points, to my understanding Col. John Norwood is actually the one who terminated the Dragon Skin test back in early 2006. Does anyone see any conflict of interest here?
A lot of people make the claim that the Army would have no reason to not field the best body armor, even if its “not invented here”.
I think to be more accurate there are certain individuals either in the Army or who work for the Army who definitely do have motivation to keep Dragon Skin out of the ball game. There is a lot of money involved here, and some people do things they normally wouldn’t do or which isn’t necessarily ethical for a large sum of money.
Translation: To be quite frank, I believe that there are certain individuals who work for the Army who are being bribed keep dragon skin from being fielded to the soldiers. Sad, but most likely true. Oh yeah what about Nevin Rupert, why wasn’t he called to testify before the HASC. He should have been a key witness, It wouldn’t suprise me if members of congress are involved in this too.
This “bribery” I don’t think is just a body armor issue, I think it is also an issue with MRAPS and M4 & M16s as well.
I have to say, even though this is a diversion from the whole UAV debate, THANK HEAVEN FOR DEFENSE TECH and exchanges like these . I hope that the comments above are HIGHLY valuable input to any and all who have an interest in how such ‘peculiar’ developments in DOD procurement can result in our military ending up with second-rate gear in the field.
Maybe, and I’m just fantasizing here, someone relevant to the process will take note of the observations made here and be influenced to be a more conscientious ‘consumer’, if you will.
Yea I saw this testing as well. Remember one thing, (FAT) covers 30 units not two. So it hasn’t passed anything.
Also Mr. Neal has changed the adhesive to a better one. Congradulations! Wouldn’t be surprised if there were other subtle changes
made, there certainly was plenty of time to do it. I even supplied Mr. Neal with the information required to address the problem. His lawyer wrote a nasty gram to my lawyer about the article listed below.
Go here to gain a better understanding of this issue.
http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Rifletile.htm
All I can say to Mr. Neil is Your Welcome for the freebie, let me know if you need anymore help. Always willing to lend a hand or a few brain cells to help the troops even it’s for my competitor.
Al
Questions still remain about Dragon Skin:
1. What about Nevin Rupert and the fact that he was fired and the he was not allowed to view the test despite being the Army’s go-to guy for Dragon Skin.
2. What about Jim Magee? What about his written testimony and his opinion, the Army questioned whether the ESAPI plates used in the NBC test were legitimate, they were provided by PPI, who supplies the USMC. If these plates are good enough for the Marines I certainly think they are good enough for the Army.
3. What about the following article (see link below) and some testing of Dragon Skin that allegedly took place some time ago.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_060420_dragon3,,00.html
I have notice Allan Bain has entered this forum, perhaps he would not mind sharing his insights on the issues mentioned above. What say you?
Well Mr. Patriot I have already made the statement on my website, go to http://www.evolutionarmor.com and click on Dragon Skin Vs IBA.
Mr. Mcgee made accurate statements, it appeared that Dragon Skin was better, but I don’t think he was considering the scalar armor design and how it was tested, or that is, how it should be tested compared to planular uniform thick monolith rifle plates.
Rupert Nevin? Beats me? Your guess is as good as mine.
Regards
For those still following the Dragon Skin story like myself, check out the following link:
http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/9323222.html
Apparantely Pinnacle now has USTL (NIJ certificed facility) test results of older models of body armor showing that there is not ballistic degredation in the vests over their warranty period, why would the the Justice Department move so hastily to revoke the certification in the first place?
Does anyone have a logical answer to this question?
PPI supplies the new MTV soft body armor carriers, they do not have a contract to my knowledge for ESAPI ceramics plates. Their parent company CPC (a Canadian company) who manufacturers ceramics is embroiled in a lawsuit with Armorworks over CPC providing substandard ceramics to fulfill a government contract for ESAPI plates.
Your conspiracy crap is getting old.
Nevile was fired, ask him why he got fired, I doubt he wants that to be public knowledge. He has zero credibility. So referring to anything he touched does not help your case. Congress knows the truth, so you pleadings will not influence them any longer.
The NIJ got fooled, now they will not be fooled. Only one soft vest and one level III vest out of the dozens sent in actually got through NIJs minimal test protocols. They have a new test, it is a little more challenging.
I wouldn’t trust anything that comes from Pinnacle, least of all the fact that they can come up with old vest to prove the durability of their warranty. The old stuff still has the old glue.
The Army tested Dragon Skin prior to the 2006 test and it failed. The reason for the 2006 test was because of the original failures, and Murray accusing the army of denying his product. Well it failed again.
The other issue that no one talks about is the weight of Dragon Skin.
The Army has new solicitations on the street right now for ESAPI and X-SAPI, Pinnacle has their chance to prove whether their crap works or not. If I am the customer, I will dictate how I want things tested, not my supplier. If he measures up, he gets a contract, if not, come back when you can.
Pinnacle’s tests prove nothing.
Jim Magee clearly states in his written testimony for HASC that the ESAPI plates and the OTV are made by PPI, more specifically he states the ESAPI plates were from a lot en route the Marines. Who PPI’s parent company is or if they have one I don’t know, my point the plates used by dateline were military issue plates.
I have no idea why Nevin Rupert was fired by the Army. The timing just seems coincidental after he had worked there for 33 years. I don’t understand how a person who evaluated DS for 7 years has no credibility on the subject.
The NIJ has no proof that DS does not hold up over its warranty period. Granted the burden of proof may be on Pinnacle to prove it does hold up. What more can you do than shoot 6-year old vests. (Testing was done at USTL) They already passed all the ballistic testing. How did the NIJ get fooled? DS passed their test protocols and procedures.
Oh yes the weight of Dragon Skin, yes a full torso wrap is over 40 lbs, but it of course it provides much more level III or level IV coverage than the interceptor. Hell we could load up the interceptor with a ton of ESAPI plates to get the equivalent area of coverage of a full torso wrap and it would weigh well over 40 lbs as well. If you took a 10×12 DS panel and a 10×12 ESAPI plate and weighed only those individually I am certain these weights would be nearly identical.
If the customers should get what they want, then let the grunts buy DS and lift the SOUM.
Patriot, Dragon Skin is heavier than any other modern Body armor with the same coverage/ protection. Full torso wrap is the only real advantage DS offers. But that is very very heavy.
Picking up your example of loading up Interceptor: An IBA with same level IV coverage (+20%) as full torso SOV3000 its weight would be about 30lb.
Patriot if you had identical coverage of DS and ESAPI plates you would have DS being heavier, the overlapping areas are redundant coverage.
One discus tile is 3.14 Sq. Inches, but in the imbricated pattern it nets out to 2.05 Sq. Inches of coverage, thats a lot of excess material to achieve a flexible format.
Plus the newest plates coming out are very light.
5.2 Lbs for stand alone level 4. DS is heavier!
Oh Patriot,
Your so easily fooled. Those vests were comprised of an entirely different cermic than the ones certified. A discontinued thinner easier to hold in place ceramic that was really expensive. I want to see vests worn by contractors a few years later (2004 – 2006)pass, that would convince me, and have them tested at a truly idenpendant lab like Oregon Ballistics.
What they posted was just another Pinnacle trick, remember how there were never any penetrations at H.P. White during first article testing, and the made up story about the heated conversation between Dr. JAmes Zhang and Karl Masters. The disks didn’t really slip under heat aging ect., except we all saw the video of Mr. Neal looking right at a big fat hole in the armor after he told everyone it didn’t happen. Just more of the same from Pinnacle.
Al,
Can you explain in a little more detail what you are trying to say about changing ceramics? I’m not quite sure what you mean.
thanks
think Dragon scale is good but is quite heavy and does not take incerible amout of hits maybe 10 at best. A newer amour from Defend-X is much better it is like hard plates in shape and size but thats were the similaries end. I saw a video on you tube of it taking 63 5.56 nato green tip rounds before even dinting on the back. The armour has two plates with some for of rino lining on them and sandwiched in beteween them is a balsitic foam. any way it looks like the best amour out there right now.
I have seen more videos of it on the Defend-X website
thats crazy
Stopping a grenade is not that impressive, as a regular 3-A vest can do the same. Sure, have ceramic tiles in front of the kevlar is better, but stopping a grenade with traditional ballistic materials is no miraculous event.
I dont understand how something can be certified and then they can take all of that back and pull it from service. To me this means we need to revamp our certification testing program.
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