Comments on: Document Alert!

By: demophilus

demophilus — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:13:24 +0000

Yes, make up your own mind. That's been my point all along. Every American should have the right to do that, and not be told that someone else has "more" perspective, or "better" context. E pluribus unum. As far as Yon's story goes, I mean no disrespect to anyone involved, and thank them for their service. But a clusterf*ck is just that, whether it goes down on Yon's blog, or Army of Dude's. There's no "more" or "better" to it. They're data points -- different parts of the elephant, not the whole enchilada. That's epistemology, not a sound bite. And the "road of excess" part is poetry -- specifically, William Blake. And if you follow the metaphor, it marks both Yon and Army of Dude as wise men, and also suggests how far Steve and I have to go. Demo, over and out.

By: Steven

Steven — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:12:14 +0000

Dem-o:
You know what irony is? I guess you must, because you leave out facts in your examples meant to point out missing facts in my post.
“Seeing as context is so important, you forgot to mention the parts where the CO could have stopped the BGs in the car, but didn’t, then chased them down an alley without overwatch, and an embed in tow“
I guess you decided to leave out the reason that he didn’t stop the bad guys was because LTC Kurilla was the one that spotted the suspicious car, and the BG’s gunned the car as soon as they noticed he had made them. You also left out the ensuing vehicle chase, with his Strykers chasing the Opel with the BG’s inside. You also left out the fact that when the chase ended and the BG’s went on foot into an alley, he put his vehicle WITH A SQUAD OF GUYS in a blocking position, while other strykers were sent to clear their way towards the blocking position. You also left out how soldiers in his vehicle were clearing the immediate area and flex-cuffing possible suspects. You left out that soldiers clearing their way towards the blocking position became engaged while clearing and trying to box in the BG’s they had chased. And that he went to back up some of the men from his vehicle that were already moving towards the shooting. And that’s where he got shot.
See? That’s how much context you can provide when you’re not concerned with dropping witty gems like
“Guess the road of excess DOES lead to the palace of wisdom.”

By: demophilus

demophilus — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:06:57 +0000

Seeing as context is so important, you forgot to mention the parts where the CO could have stopped the BGs in the car, but didn’t, then chased them down an alley without overwatch, and an embed in tow. You also forgot the part where the embed snapped pictures of the whole COPS episode, except the part where he had to grab a weapon, and just might have saved everyone’s ass.
You also neglected to mention how anything Yon says provides “more” or “better” perspective, or context.
And as far as “snappy little sound bites” go, I don’t do that. And, even if I did, why are they fair play for you?
Nice talking to you, Steve-o. FTR, I’m not the enemy. That’s the douchebag with the beard in the cave.

By: Steven

Steven — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:18:32 +0000

Solomon:
Definitely agree with you that the increasing politicizing of the military is troubling. That kind of legacy is hard to shake — just look at the military after Viet Nam.
Demophilus:
Yes. In that case, a battalion commander had been shot in the leg and laying down in the open, attempting to return AK-47 fire with his M9 pistol. Two soldiers with him froze and were not moving. A CSM finally went forward to help the commander and was shot and went down also. Michael Yon is a former Special Forces operator. That’s the point where he picked up the CSM’s M4 and tried to shoot a few rounds of suppressive fire so he could go check on the commander and the CSM. This is when help finally arrived.
See? That’s called context. It’s hard to provide when you are thinking/writing in snappy little sound bites.

By: Solomon

Solomon — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:57:33 +0000

I said that "Army of Dude" expressed my feelings. Nothing more. Once you get past the privates on their first enlistments, once you get past the SNCO's that are trying to sniff out SGTMAJ or Master Gunny...Once you get past the Officers that are punching tickets, then you get to the truth of this conflict. The "Revolt of the Generals" was a start but sad and pathetic. The politics of this thing and the politicizing of the military is ONE of the lasting, troubling, and incomprehensible after affects of this conflict. I respect this site because although many have tried to silence critics of this conflict- Christian, Ward and the others have brought a balanced accounting of whats going on. I just expect the same of the many posters here too. Whether Active, Vets, Retired or Enthusiasts, this is one place where I don't want (or expect to see) political talking points. I believe that the effects of this conflict on the Army and Marine Corps has reached a point of "no return" they were stretched, I now believe they're broken (maybe not the Marines but "we win battles"...the nation needs a strong and vibrant Army to win wars). That is why I may sound alarmist, this has gone too far. Oh and one last thing...head to a SNCO club on any Army post or Marine base and after a few shots of Jack Daniels, find a quiet corner and see what the real troops think about this war.

By: demophilus

demophilus — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:53:11 +0000

I've read Michael Yon. Isn't he the embed who grabbed a weapon in a firefight, and shot a hole in a propane canister? Guess the road of excess DOES lead to the palace of wisdom. Don't know about "better" perspective, or "more" context. My philosophy professors taught me to put more trust in the word "different" -- although my physics professors convinced me that "better" and "more" look real fine before the words "data points". Naw, I'd say it's more like the story of the blind guys and the elephant. Must suck to be the guy who grabs the nads. But then again, I'm still humping the road of excess.

By: demophilus

demophilus — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:32:04 +0000

Sol:
The road of excess may lead to the palace of wisdom, but the purge after the surge won’t start or end with 1 stars, nor will anybody (except for a Calley, or Medina) do time. By and large, officers don’t.
After Viet Nam, a lot of the asshats who drank McNamara’s Kool-Aid retired, or got “promoted” to positions where they couldn’t do any more harm. Have no fear; sometimes, the Big Green Machine works just fine.
But, I tell you what: if I were Bremer, Perle or Wolfowitz, I’d lie low for a while. Work on my memoirs.
If I were Cheney, I wouldn’t go hunting with strangers. But then again, I don’t.

By: Solomon

Solomon — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:50:35 +0000

J. House
Go to the “Army of Dude” blogspot. Read his account of whats going on in Iraq and you’ll understand my feelings and viewpoints better than I could ever express them. Embrace the suck NO! Jail every 1-star and above who’s allowed this craziness to infect our Army and Marine Corps ? Hell Yes!

By: demophilus

demophilus — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:06:24 +0000

J:
True AND false patriots respond strongly to challenges of their commitment. Quislings AND war profiteers hide their venality behind the flag.
There’s a war on, J. Nothing is easy, or simple, not anymore, if it ever was. The balloon done gone up.
After peace breaks out, on sunny days we can go back to painting rocks around the command quad. Until then, we’re marching through the fog.
Embrace the suck.

By: j house

j house — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:25:52 +0000

Re Solomon’s comments, remember, Congress asked for this report, not the White House.
Gee, do you think the WH critics would be calling General P a liar if his statistics showed attacks were rising?
Theatre is right…the problem with politicians and media pundits on both sides of the aisle is that once they get locked into their positions, it is nearly impossible for them to admit they were wrong, so instead of honest debate, they engage in shaping the facts to their prior positions.
We also fail to grasp the fact that there are plenty of Americans (including members of Congress and the State Dept) that want to see America humiliated from a ‘defeat’ in Iraq, either because the despise the current administration and wish for failure, or, they do not want to see American power succeed with the present ‘preemption’ approach to foreign policy.
They can be easily identified by their vitriolic reaction to any comments questioning their patriotism.