The general in charge of operations for coalition forces in northern Iraq had an interesting technical request during an interview with fellow bloggers this morning (Sept. 24). He had a lot of other things to say, of course, but I thought DT readers would be particularly interested in this little tidbit.
When asked what kind of gear items he needed that he didnt already have, Brig. Gen. Mike Bednarek applauded the money and effort put into devising counter IED technology and getting urgent needs out to the field, but had one simple request.
Ill paraphrase a bit here:
If I could have one thing that could help me right now, it would be some sort of low-power laser cutter that we could mount to a Humvee and as we drive along, it would cut command detonation wires along our route.
This perked my interest and Id like to see if any DT readers have some input here. This idea certainly makes sense, but I wonder if theres anything out there already to meet Bednareks demands, or whether this problem has already been considered and deemed unworkable.
Ive seen that weird IR triggering device that has been recently retrofitted to Humvees the one that looks like a big, flat black square on a pole extending from the front bumper which is used to detonate EFP roadside bombs. But I dont know if theres something out there like the laser cutter Bednarek needs.
Let us know if any of you have heard anything about something like this. Id like to be able to put someone in touch with the general if there is maybe we here at DT can do a little more than debate amongst ourselves. Maybe we can help someone save a few lives in the process
{ 28 comments… read them below or add one }
This is not meant to be facetious. But would this be like having a diamond edged pizza cutter on a pole sticking off the front of a humvee? It just rolls along and cuts wired if it runs over them? Do they have to spot them first and then use the Laser? I guess that makes more sense.
Any laser that can cut something, even just a trip wire needs power. And if it is to be used effectivly it would need to be on at all times, so youre talking about a crap load of power that has to come from someware. Were would it come from? Also I think its a great idea, but how big would a laser like that be. I would think something smaller than a laser system is a better bet. And a laser is definatly going to cost a pretty penny, would the army even spend that kinda money?
Or a dedicated lead humvee that houses the laser and nothing else. But that lead humvee is going to get hit, and your laser is going to get destroyed.
To Mnay ?s need awnsered for me, before i say one way of another.
[sarcasm] Why not just get the good General some frickin’ sharks with frickin’ laser beams attached to their frickin’ heads. It might be easier and more realistic than what he is asking for. [/sarcasm]
Exactly what we need… More people believing all IED’s need simply have the command wire cut and you are good to go. I have responded to many calls of “safe” IED’s because the command wire/ICW (improvised crush wire) has been cut, only to see that the command wire/ICW was either an elaborate hoax, a distraction, or an entrapment scenario for the poor Joe who decides to go pick up the rounds after cutting the command wire/ICW… Less lasers, more JERRV/cougar/buffalo/RG’s
I can see where the General is going, but it is too complicated. Lasers need to focus on object to cut them. Plus, if they switched to plastic trip wires the laser would have to be ten times stronger.
A simpler suggestion would be to have an extendable “V” in front of the lead humvee. The “V” would be sharp and cut the wire. However it would still have to be about ten feet long, extended out, so when they make when the trigger cable is cut (as opposed to pulled by the vehicle, or pressed down by tires) the bomb goes off.
Of course once this is in place, they will try and figure out a way to have a delay. About ten feet
I agree with “Air Force EOD”.
FYI, the clostest thing that I know of (regaurding the Generals wishlist) is the the Army’s Zeus, which is a HUMVEE mounted 10KW laser…I dont think its strong enough for the generals purpose though…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZEUS-HLONS_(HMMWV_Laser_Ordnance_Neutralization_System)
There are probably a hundred reasons why my following idea is unfeasible, but couldn’t you make a liquid gun that sprays some kind of acid that can dissolve through the wires?
Personally, I wouldn’t use a laser… simply because of the line of sight problems you run into. If you want to clear a roadway of tripwire IED’s & possible ambushes, use a remotely operated lead vehicle. Operating personnel could either ride in the convoy, or be displaced & command the from elsewhere.
Lions, tigers, and bears… Oh my! If you go down this route, you’ve got a couple choices. 1) A very durable vehicle that is designed mostly to survive, and has the necessary optics to recon & map the route. 2) Remote decoy… a vehicle made to look & act like a normal HMMWV (or such) in order to trigger manned ambushes. 3) To arm or not to arm… etc, etc.
(Tangent) I wonder if you could take front line soldiers, who’ve been in combat, and stick them behind a computer screen to operate remote combat vehicles. I recall an article describing soldiers playing rather violent console/computer games to unwind after stressful situations… er, something like that. (End Tangent)
A rather cheap option would be to sling an old tall tire down a road… and hope it doesn’t tip over. 8O)
I dont want to bash this the General, and I realize Generals are probely the smartest people you will ever meet (heck it takes a fricking act of congress to make someone a general). But why does he think trip wires are even used all that much, has he just been indoors to long or what.
But all ya need is to roll an M-1 abrams infront of your convoy, and it will trip all the IEDs, no one will dare ambush your convoy, and what boozo is accually going to shoot at a convoy with some real firepower in it. That would be cheaper than using lasers, and much more efective. Plan B would be that the poor terrorist gets hit with a dose of good olfashion 120mmHE with a few .50 to top it off.
I’m guessing that these command wires could be under at least an inch or two of sand/rock/soil. Low (or even relatively high) power lasers probably wouldn’t do much good if that’s the case. Cutters or plows mounted to foreward vehicles may sever the wires, but might also sacrifice those vehicles and their occupants.
In my house, if the 120v Romex cables are too close to the Cat 5 cables, then I lose communications.
Very focussed, high-powered, foreward-lookihg RF may do something usefull. Farraday, Maxwell, et. all.
Yeah I do like the tank Idea, I really dislike the fact that we arent using them much because of the damage they do lol!! Thats the whole point of having something like the M-1, to kill and destroy your enemy anywhere he might be hiding.
And why all the bashing of the laser cutter idea?
Yeah it might not be totally feasible at the moment, but why not something similar, just not a laser? Or maybe something could be improvised out of existing tech, just used in a new way? I love it when this stuff gets thrown around in the Idea hopper, maybe people will come up with the incredible idea, who knows?
I don’t think a lot of you realize the kind of destruction an IED can do. You cant simply have a 10 foot pole sticking out trying to cut a wire. It’s rarely that easy. You may spot 5 inches of the wire while the rest is covered with rocks or sand. You also cant have a dedicated IED defusal vehicle in a convoy because it’s not the job of a normal convoy to makes IEDs safe, it’s the job of EOD. Plus they’d catch on quick enough and simply detonate it after the first vehicle passes.
A laser COULD have a use in situations like the one i was in, route clearance on heavily used MSRs. Imagine a situation where you spot a possible IED with wires coming out of it. If im in a route clearance vehicle it would be advantageous to try and cut that wire from a safe distance (over 50 meters at least) to try and make it a little more safe so civilians in the area are less likely to be injured.
Check out this most excellent link
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001437.html
If a laser was the solution you’d think there would be more of them in theater.
The laser would need to be extremly powerful and able to focus while the vehicle is moving fast. And if the wires are buried under the sand it would get even more complicated. At the moment there are probably too many technical hurdles for such a solution.
I think the best strategy remains to try and find the IED’s before vehicles hit them. In Kosovo they used the Mineseeker-airship to find mines with ground penetrating radar(UWB SAR), a really fascinating experiment :
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mineseeker/
An improved version of this technology would be very usefull in Iraq, if they could adapt it for finding IED’s. You could rapidly scan a large area or road, pinpoint all the IED’s and send out EOD. Afterwards the airship could remain in the air as a surveillance platform, guarding roads or even entire cities and preventing insurgents from planting IED’s on that location.
There was a story in PopSci about a college team submitting design proposals for antarctic research. One of the designs they came up with was a beach ball looking device that would lead the exploration vehicle seeking out weaknesses in the ice to prevent the vehicle from falling into a crevasse. This seems far more reasonable as technology. What happens if the laser moves up when that hummer runs over a pothole and vaporizes some kid down the street?
“I
Well, if you start rolling a tank ahead of each convoy; they’ll just lay bigger IEDs, nail the tank and use the tank in their propaganda pictures; no biggie.
The only solution is to target the bomber…not enough troops to “take control of the night”-night patrols to deny the insurgents the ability to plant/lay IEDs would cut the heart out of them. Gizmo’s won’t help here too much, gotta do it the old fashioned way (though parking a tank on a hill and having it overwatch a large swathe of territory might do the trick).
What they might need is a concentrated microwave, strong enough to burn or maybe just melt plastic. If you can burn through the wire coating (plastic) then the wire will touch and begin to short out prior to arrival. If a remote detonator, then you are melting wires or CCCA circuit cards rendering device useless.
The microwave could be pulsed, firing x time a second, thus reducing power requirments by using capacitors. Also the microwave could run through a series of frequencies to make sure to burn various types of plastics and penetrate different soil/pavement types
It would be a lot easier for microwaves to penetrate the ground than a laser
Caveat… this would also wreak havoc on cars, electronics, etc, if not focused and aimed, so they would have to be careful with this one.
Possibly place this underneath of a remotely operated vehicle, so any IEDs placed under the roadbed could be neutralized. IEDs nearby would need a simular system. This could also be used in an airborne platform, using a focused microwave beam, simular to a jammer signal run through a straw.
Since the General did not ask for types of sensors, I’ll leave that for others :<))
While I understand the General’s sentiment, a cutting laser of the type he envisions is a bad idea because they have almost unlimited range. To my knowledge, such lasers can’t be focused to work at up to say, 100 yards, max range, then fade out or go ineffective beyond that. Even a penlight laser can be seen at several thousand feet. All we need is for one so equiped Humvee to fall into enemy hands and they’ll have a really good way to shoot down our aircraft from great distances, and they won’t need cutting ability to do it. Just blind the pilot as occassionally happens outside the warzone….
Hmmmm,
How about a remote controlled smart car (two seater) with two Al Quiada prisoners “strapped in” to lead a convoy. This car would also be wired with explosives that can be detonated by members of the convoy if attacked.
More martyrs equals fewer operatives.
Of course, probably counter to a few international treaties, but so is beheading on video.
bottom line: general looking for a clean solution to a dirty problem – there ain’t one.
Surveillance. The General needs to request sufficient surveillance by an armada of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs). These explosive devices are not being
First, if an ied is located, I would think that a well placed he round should a least disable it.
Second, why use americans on the roads anyway, Let the Iraqi’s deliver anything that we cant air lift.
I tend to feel that after enough locals get blown up by ieds, then maybe their brothers would tend to either prevent them from being installed, or warn the convoy as it comes up to one.
We are wasting to much of our own resources on doing what we could be requiring the Iraqi’s to do themselves. We have the capability to monitor any convoy by air, remotely to make sure they are going where they are supposed to.
But their is absolutely no need for any coalition members to be on the ground during convoys.
How about, Play by the enemies rules?
Kidnap several of the Mullahs, or leaders. And make it known that they will be riding along in the convoys.
These freaks have no problem sending kids and others to die, but never seem to want to show their willingness to die for their cause.
And if you do find an ied, let them go dig it up.
I’ve seen it time and again; The Brass trying to beat a low tech enemy with high tech (and high dollar) gizmos. There are no easy answers here, just like there is no easy answer to Terrorism. (Try finding an Internationally accepted definition on that one…) Proven tactics and willingness to do whatever it takes to win will take the day. Other than the tools employed this conflict is no different than other guerrilla war; namely that it is a nasty business where bad things happen. Our troops are hamstrung by ROE (Rules Of Engagement) and a media that is willing to string up Military members for their actions while in the Combat Zone (see Abu Ghraib, Hadditha, etc) making it nearly impossible to win. A laser to cut tripwires or command wires would work a couple of times till the enemy changes tactics and thereby bleeding OUR economy of millions of dollars in development. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to fight the enemy on their terms and spend the money that would have been used for development of the laser for defense in the media? I’ve seen a couple of good ideas on this board already; (rolling up Mullahs and making them ride in the convoys), how about mining the culverts? Oh yeah, what about the kids playing in them? Easy, advertise that you did it. Again, guerrilla war is a nasty business. In all the innovation and willingness of the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines involved in defeating IED’s, namely EOD (Hoo-Yah Navy EOD!), will prevail if given latitude to develop and apply their own tactics. Just my $.02 worth.
I like these idea’s: How about a remote controlled smart car (two seater) with two Al Quiada prisoners “strapped in” to lead a convoy. This car would also be wired with explosives that can be detonated by members of the convoy if attacked.
More martyrs equals fewer operatives.
Of course, probably counter to a few international treaties, but so is beheading on video.
bottom line: general looking for a clean solution to a dirty problem – there ain’t one.
Posted by: retireddude at September 27, 2007 10:50 AM.
Also this idea: How about, Play by the enemies rules?
Kidnap several of the Mullahs, or leaders. And make it known that they will be riding along in the convoys.
These freaks have no problem sending kids and others to die, but never seem to want to show their willingness to die for their cause.
And if you do find an ied, let them go dig it up.
Posted by: spastic jack at September 27, 2007 04:55 PM.Someone else said: why use americans on the roads anyway, Let the Iraqi’s deliver anything that we cant air lift. We can watch over the convoy with helo’s.
PLAY BY THERE RULE OR WE LOOSE PERIOD.
Larry
Can someone tell me why we don’t have guards/monitors/remote cameras with IR scopes to monitor convoy routes (seriously, not trying to be sarcastic)? If you have a decent line of sight, you wouldn’t need a lot of them to watch for the guys burying the IEDs. Then you can send in the engineers to detonate &/or send a nearby patrol in to make the guy dig it back up and sit on it.
Yes this can be done ;but need some Plasma torches
and some rigging on the front of the Humvees or Tanks. should cut 6 Inches into ground and severs anything even heavy cables so done. Bores holes inot dirt or better way is to warn every citizen in Iraq or orther areas that anytime a Vehicle is blown up that B-52 Carpet bombing wil ensue 1 mile in all directions of the attack. instantly too not 5 or ten minutes but instantly —So any vehicle getting attacked with lead to mass destruction of that area no questions period!
Smart car idea good ( no people)- But cant these IED's just be be bombed in some way in advance of the troops to clear the way?
just a civvie