A quick head’s up here. My friend Paul Solman, the economics correspondent for PBS’s News Hour show, just broadcast his package on the body armor procurement controversy.
While he doesn’t mention Defense Tech by name, he did afford us a screen shot and pulled documents from my previous work on the story with Marine Corps Times newspaper.
Follow this LINK to watch the program.
– Christian
Your friend Paul certainly has an axe to grind. He takes every word of the anti-Army at face value, and every innuendo of the Dragon Skin crowd as truth. The Army comes out of that hatchet job as a bunch of money grubbing nasties out to make a killing in the revolving door defense industry. Why did they leave any of the details of the Army tests out? If the Army says the sky is blue, this guy would bring out ten fools to say it was green.
And why did they get an “economics” reporter to cover this story? What’s wrong with their defense correspondent? Too busy setting up his revolving door job at a defense contractor?
Im sick of this issue, move on. Dragon armor sucks and that has been proven by Military testing. Move on poeple. Gosh
Yes, PROVEN. Proven by fair testing with the methods and results published for all to see.
Dragon skin is expensive, heavy, and the methods used to hold the disks in place are inadequate. The tests showed repeated penetrations because of adhesive failures.
Dragon skin is not super armor. There is no conspiracy against it. There are certain types who want to undermine our military and they are using dragon skin as a way to do that.
I agree: The best way to support our military is to turn the blind eye to the fact that people in charge of testing and awarding equipment contracts accidentally get high-paying jobs at the companies that tend to benefit from their decisions. Asking any questions about potential conflicts of interests is undermining our military. Those callous inquiries into the wisdom of revolving door policies are the number one cause of low morale amount our troops deployed overseas, I am sure.
Hey, Shipmates, if you think that the Fifth Column folks over at PBS are going to objective about anything, I suggest you all need to take a long walk off the fantail.
There hasn’t been anything objective in the way of reportage out of that bunch of raving moonbats as far back as I can remember. You wouldn’t expect to get anything but scuttlebutt from The National Enquirer or The People’s Worker Daily, would you? So why would you bite so hard on a story from PBS?
Seems to me that this ain’t done yet, but it doesn’t look so good for Dragon Skin. The design looks a little hinky to me. For all the extra weight, we might be better off adding some titanium plates to the Interceptor.
Cheers,
Chief B.
In regards to Siconik’s posts– Is it worth considering that some of the military people who worked on the project while in uniform have knowledge and experience that make them valuable to continued successful development and improvement of the product? Proly not. Probably should not have cancer research carried out by the money grubbing laboratories who have been doing it for so long ‘cuz they’re on the “inside” too.
“Dragon skin is expensive, heavy, and the methods used to hold the disks in place are inadequate. “
For equivalent coverage, it’s actually lighter. And for equivalent numbers, it might not be more expensive. The adhesive failures are open to debate — but if it’s just a matter of improving the fixing, why not work on that rather than trashing the whole idea?
What we do know for sure is that DragonSkin is a lot more robust than ceramic plates and provides better protection — and that some people don’t want a level playing field for the comparison.
so much for all the honor and duty that they teach in OCS ROTC goes out the window when it comes to make a buck.
Why do a lot of people think that what ever that Army donst use, is because some money hungry geek is behind it? Why?
I would never wear dragon skin, beacuse it weighs so friking much. Honestly let the military decide what they want.
I hear people complain about how the army isnt spending enough in some areas, but the same people complain about the army spending money in others. Why are people so firm in there beliefe that dragon skin is so good. Ya if can take 50–100 hits (or so the TV shows) but if you heat it up, of soak it, the first round will penetrate. it was a good idea, that was not a good product.
Here’s the deal:
The IBA works just fine. It does exactly what it’s designed to do.
Maybe Dragonskin is slightly better in some areas — but too late, the IBA is already fielded.
End of Story.
mega mega diddos SGT K
The armor is “twenty pounds hevier” if you include thes ide protection.
Without it, Dragon skin is two pounds heavier than inteceptor.
Guys, if you think it is ok to leave the decisions about this stuff to people who know they are going to become “Vice Presidents” in the companies a year after they leave the service, I hope you do not have a random drug test anytime soon.
The rule should be if they decide on a contact, once they leave the military, they shouls NEVER be able to get a job with that company.
This way they will have to take large quanities of cash from undisclosed offshore accounts. It will be easier to send them to jail then.…..
Right now we just have a time deferred bribery system.….
Come on! Dragon Skin did not only fail the Army test but also those by Air Force, Marines and several by NIJ. Only SOV2000 passed NIJ. Level IV Dragon Skin never had any kind of confirmed protection level. So I wonder why some people don’t realize that Dragon Skin is not the magic vest as it is advertised.
Another point is its use for the military: The advertised advantage is its larger coverage. (full torso). But with that it is about 15 lb heavier than an IBA with side protection. (M Iba compared to L DS because of seizing).
With same coverage (a non defective) Dragon Skin would still increase weight about 4 lb, with nearly zero effect as protection is concerned. So why is ever B-class reporter so horny to pimp a heavier, more expensive and defective piece of body armor?
It is really funny because unlike what PBS says the rejection of Dragon Skin is an example where military procurement worked.
It is somewhat humorous to see people comment on the weight of DS. Just in this thread one has said it is two pounds heavier with equivalent coverage, and another has said it is four pounds heavier with equivalent coverage.
It seems as people don’t do their own research to find out that the weight can vary greatly depending on the coverage of the ceramic discs. I have said before that the best way to compare would be a 10x12 ESAPI vs a 10x12 DS SOV3000 panel. I can’t say I know for sure what these respective weights would be, but I would bet that they are extremely close in weight.
Someone has commented about about Air Force testing.
Yes there were penetrations of the level III DS vests, but there were after these 3 conditions.
1.) DS allowed a complete penetration after 6 shots, 6 shots is considered a pass in NIJ testing.
2.) The Air Force shot level IV rounds into a level III DS vest, but DS still defeated about half of these shots.
3.) The Air Force shot rounds into the sides were there were no ceramic discs.
The following are from Mr Douglas Thomas’ written testimony for HASC:
“Because of this notification, and to confirm Pinnacle verbal claims of their SOV 2000 Level III
That is pretty interesting Patriot. I talked to Karl Masters on a web forum. He said that from now they are going to x-ray scalar armor, dragon skin like armor, after eviromental conditioning and shoot where they see failures. I wonder if they will x-ray sapi plates and shoot at cracks too? no idea maybe. Also to reiterate shooting where there is not intended to be rifle protection and calling it a failure needs to be reviewed that is very messed up.
Also I have found no evidence that Dragon Skin Failed any physical test of the NIJ. according to the NIJ dragon skins owners failed to provide adequate evidence it would survive it’s 6 years warranties. Eventhough I have seen other reports that they tested 5–6 and a half year old vests at one of the two NIJ testing facilities and the vests passed but that wasn’t good enough evidence as that was provided to the NIJ.
So it seems that pertaining to the NIJ, pencil pushers said other pencil pushers couldn’t convince them with written evidence but no one at NIJ bothered to just test old vests. Somone show me where Dragon Skin failed an actual bullet test conducted by the NIJ and I will start to trust these type of guys more. They want their jobs. And look what shinseki got for rocking the boat and the reports from Brigadier General Mark Scheid’s recollection about Donald Rumsfeld’s response when Scheid said they ought to think about doing some postwar planning in Iraq: “I remember the secretary of defense saying that he would fire the next person that said that.“
I am not saying they are going to put people in war with stuff that doesn’t work, eventhough the m16 in it’s start didn’t have the best field data. But the thought of admitting they don’t have the best and having to refit everyone for 20 percent better? 50 percent better? They said they wouldn’t replace the M16 unless the replacement was 100 percent better. I mean does that really mean that someting 20 percent lights 20 percent more range and 50 percent better stopping power was still just 90 percent better and failed? Oh right yes because they decided exploding ammunition was the only thing that would make replacing the m16 worth it.
All that being said a lot of soldiers think the IBA is too heavy. I have read about generals asking if they can leave the side plates at home when the area of operation is calming down.
I’m a lobbyist for Interceptor Vest & yes indeed,Dragon Skin sucks,just like a Ford man will tell you that Chevy sucks & vice versa.Keep giving Interceptor vests to our troops,air “persons(I’m trying to be politically correct),” sailors,& marines.Meanwhile,when I fly to Iraq & Afghanistan,I’ll continue to wear my Dragon Skin vest because I’m the most important man in the world & I deserve to live(I just make sure that no boy scout troopers are on any plane I fly on to make sure that if the plane goes down,I’m grabbing the “real” parachute & not one of the boy scouts’ rucksack,because I’m the most important man in the world & I deserve to live.Secret Masonic handshake).
Patriot,
I wonder what you want to proof. There is absolutely no doubt that a full torso wrap SOV3000 is between 10 and 20lb heavier (depending on sizes) than an IBA with side plates. So do you want full torso wrap? Then your load rises dramatically. Or do you want a Dragon Skin with same coverage like IBA? Maybe you can explain the advantage over the current system for me because I hardly understand why someone should carry 5lb or so more (side plates!) with nearly same protection.
And as you personally have no info about weights: The weight of SOV3000 panels vanished on Pinnacle
Dean,
The information I posted was not off a pinnacle press release it is off of Mr. Douglas Thomas’ written testimony for the HASC. If you would like see for youself, take a look:
http://armedservices.house.gov/pdfs/FC060607/Thomas_Testimony060607.pdf
and yes this is relevant, because according to the information in this testimony, defeating 6 shots is pass, if you will look you will see he says it was penetrated “after six shots“
The Air Force said they were given verbal assurance that the SOV 2000 would stop specific level 4 theats. Verbal anything in business most often means nothing and carries no weight in a situation like this. On the other side I will say that Pinnacle’s claim that they were given verbal permission to label their armor level 3 should be disregarded as well.
I am presenting facts on my posts, you on the other hand are simply speculating and forming your own conclusions based on those speculations.
I cannot speak about the false labeling about DS except that it happened. Why they did it? I have no idea but it happend, so slap them on the wrist and get on with it.
Also the weight of the SOV 3000 DS is listed on the website:
“The SOV-3000
Patriot,
you say the weight of Dragon Skin depends on size and configuration. Thus that you quote Pinnacle
dean,
I already explained by quoting Air Force testimony that DS did not fail written specifications. Yeah it was falsley labeled, but that has nothing to do with the ballistic characteristics of the vests. The argument here is did it fail NIJ level 3 testing done by the Air Force. The answer is no.
As far as weight is concered, call Pinnacle and ask them how much the vairous sizes of DS panels weigh.
Patriot,
I know the weights of several Dragon Skin configurations. It was you who didn
Found this new story from a local news station. Who says money is not a major factor in this whole thing?
By Erika Razo
Controversy surrounding the body armor supplied to American troops continues to deepen, as the former c.e.o. of the military’s top producer of interceptor body armor is being indicted on charges of fraud, insider trading, and tax evasion.
The F-B-I says it is a case that is
oops, sorry I see DT is already on top of this story.….…