Comments on: The Body Armor Debate Hits PBS

By: patriot

patriot — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:24:00 +0000

oops, sorry I see DT is already on top of this story.….…

By: patriot

patriot — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:20:48 +0000

Found this new story from a local news station. Who says money is not a major factor in this whole thing?
By Erika Razo
Controversy surrounding the body armor supplied to American troops continues to deepen, as the former c.e.o. of the military’s top producer of interceptor body armor is being indicted on charges of fraud, insider trading, and tax evasion.
The F-B-I says it is a case that is

By: dean

dean — Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:48:24 +0000

Patriot,
I know the weights of several Dragon Skin configurations. It was you who didn

By: patriot

patriot — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 00:04:27 +0000

dean,
I already explained by quoting Air Force testimony that DS did not fail written specifications. Yeah it was falsley labeled, but that has nothing to do with the ballistic characteristics of the vests. The argument here is did it fail NIJ level 3 testing done by the Air Force. The answer is no.
As far as weight is concered, call Pinnacle and ask them how much the vairous sizes of DS panels weigh.

By: dean

dean — Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:29:35 +0000

Patriot,
you say the weight of Dragon Skin depends on size and configuration. Thus that you quote Pinnacle

By: patriot

patriot — Fri, 05 Oct 2007 05:29:09 +0000

Dean,
The information I posted was not off a pinnacle press release it is off of Mr. Douglas Thomas’ written testimony for the HASC. If you would like see for youself, take a look:
http://armedservices.house.gov/pdfs/FC060607/Thomas_Testimony060607.pdf
and yes this is relevant, because according to the information in this testimony, defeating 6 shots is pass, if you will look you will see he says it was penetrated “after six shots“
The Air Force said they were given verbal assurance that the SOV 2000 would stop specific level 4 theats. Verbal anything in business most often means nothing and carries no weight in a situation like this. On the other side I will say that Pinnacle’s claim that they were given verbal permission to label their armor level 3 should be disregarded as well.
I am presenting facts on my posts, you on the other hand are simply speculating and forming your own conclusions based on those speculations.
I cannot speak about the false labeling about DS except that it happened. Why they did it? I have no idea but it happend, so slap them on the wrist and get on with it.
Also the weight of the SOV 3000 DS is listed on the website:
“The SOV-3000

By: dean

dean — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:10:44 +0000

Patriot,
I wonder what you want to proof. There is absolutely no doubt that a full torso wrap SOV3000 is between 10 and 20lb heavier (depending on sizes) than an IBA with side plates. So do you want full torso wrap? Then your load rises dramatically. Or do you want a Dragon Skin with same coverage like IBA? Maybe you can explain the advantage over the current system for me because I hardly understand why someone should carry 5lb or so more (side plates!) with nearly same protection.
And as you personally have no info about weights: The weight of SOV3000 panels vanished on Pinnacle

By: Roy Smith

Roy Smith — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:13:07 +0000

I'm a lobbyist for Interceptor Vest & yes indeed,Dragon Skin sucks,just like a Ford man will tell you that Chevy sucks & vice versa.Keep giving Interceptor vests to our troops,air "persons(I'm trying to be politically correct)," sailors,& marines.Meanwhile,when I fly to Iraq & Afghanistan,I'll continue to wear my Dragon Skin vest because I'm the most important man in the world & I deserve to live(I just make sure that no boy scout troopers are on any plane I fly on to make sure that if the plane goes down,I'm grabbing the "real" parachute & not one of the boy scouts' rucksack,because I'm the most important man in the world & I deserve to live.Secret Masonic handshake).

By: txzen

txzen — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:10:48 +0000

That is pretty interesting Patriot. I talked to Karl Masters on a web forum. He said that from now they are going to x-ray scalar armor, dragon skin like armor, after eviromental conditioning and shoot where they see failures. I wonder if they will x-ray sapi plates and shoot at cracks too? no idea maybe. Also to reiterate shooting where there is not intended to be rifle protection and calling it a failure needs to be reviewed that is very messed up.
Also I have found no evidence that Dragon Skin Failed any physical test of the NIJ. according to the NIJ dragon skins owners failed to provide adequate evidence it would survive it’s 6 years warranties. Eventhough I have seen other reports that they tested 5–6 and a half year old vests at one of the two NIJ testing facilities and the vests passed but that wasn’t good enough evidence as that was provided to the NIJ.
So it seems that pertaining to the NIJ, pencil pushers said other pencil pushers couldn’t convince them with written evidence but no one at NIJ bothered to just test old vests. Somone show me where Dragon Skin failed an actual bullet test conducted by the NIJ and I will start to trust these type of guys more. They want their jobs. And look what shinseki got for rocking the boat and the reports from Brigadier General Mark Scheid’s recollection about Donald Rumsfeld’s response when Scheid said they ought to think about doing some postwar planning in Iraq: “I remember the secretary of defense saying that he would fire the next person that said that.“
I am not saying they are going to put people in war with stuff that doesn’t work, eventhough the m16 in it’s start didn’t have the best field data. But the thought of admitting they don’t have the best and having to refit everyone for 20 percent better? 50 percent better? They said they wouldn’t replace the M16 unless the replacement was 100 percent better. I mean does that really mean that someting 20 percent lights 20 percent more range and 50 percent better stopping power was still just 90 percent better and failed? Oh right yes because they decided exploding ammunition was the only thing that would make replacing the m16 worth it.
All that being said a lot of soldiers think the IBA is too heavy. I have read about generals asking if they can leave the side plates at home when the area of operation is calming down.

By: patriot

patriot — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 02:01:53 +0000

It is somewhat humorous to see people comment on the weight of DS. Just in this thread one has said it is two pounds heavier with equivalent coverage, and another has said it is four pounds heavier with equivalent coverage.
It seems as people don’t do their own research to find out that the weight can vary greatly depending on the coverage of the ceramic discs. I have said before that the best way to compare would be a 10x12 ESAPI vs a 10x12 DS SOV3000 panel. I can’t say I know for sure what these respective weights would be, but I would bet that they are extremely close in weight.
Someone has commented about about Air Force testing.
Yes there were penetrations of the level III DS vests, but there were after these 3 conditions.
1.) DS allowed a complete penetration after 6 shots, 6 shots is considered a pass in NIJ testing.
2.) The Air Force shot level IV rounds into a level III DS vest, but DS still defeated about half of these shots.
3.) The Air Force shot rounds into the sides were there were no ceramic discs.
The following are from Mr Douglas Thomas’ written testimony for HASC:
“Because of this notification, and to confirm Pinnacle verbal claims of their SOV 2000 Level III