OK folks, dont say I hadnt told you so.
Remember that vehicle that we were supposed to frantically throw billions of dollars into, throw all previous tactical vehicle programs into a tailspin, hurriedly ship them to Iraq, buy them from anyone and everyone and, oh yeah, they were supposed to defeat the most lethal roadside bombs…?
Remember that one? The mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle?
Well, it seems that vehicle isnt all its proponents claim.
USA Today reports this morning that the general in charge of fielding the MRAP to Iraq has decided to add on armor that can protect the vehicle against Iranian-made explosively formed penetrator bombs. Wait, I thought the MRAP could already do that?
Nope.
The Marine general in charge of the program to send new armored vehicles to Iraq says the Pentagon has developed “a solution” to protect the Mine Resistant Ambush Protected trucks from the deadliest type of armor-piercing roadside bomb, called explosively formed projectiles, or EFPs.
The Pentagon’s method for combating EFPs involves adding armor to the sides of MRAPs, Brig. Gen. Michael Brogan said in an interview with USA TODAY. The armor is a modified version of what the military calls Frag Kit 6, Brogan said. “I have a solution for EFPs, and I’m going to put it on the trucks I’ve already bought,” Brogan said.
The Frag Kit 6. Really? Didnt we already learn that the Frag Kit 6 is so cumbersome, you need a mechanical device to close the door and a driver cant even tell how wide the vehicle is? Thatll be fun for the troops. Getting the Frag Kit 6 equipped MRAP wedged into an alley during a raid in Dorah.
The MRAP’s V-shaped hull and raised chassis help protect troops inside the vehicle from the force of makeshift bombs known as improvised explosive devices.
Brogan dismissed concerns from some military contractors — raised in an online discussion — that the added armor would make the vehicles too wide to operate on U.S. highways.
“They’re going into a combat zone,” Brogan said. “So, yeah, they’re going to be wider than would be permitted if you were going to drive up Interstate 95.”
This week, contractors will have an opportunity to submit other solutions to the EFP threat for testing. But their armor will have to rival the current solution to merit consideration. “I’ve got great trucks,” Brogan said. “And I can put additional armor on those great trucks. … You’ve either got the solution or you don’t.“
How are you going to get them out of that crunch, Sen. Biden?
And, oh, Inside Defense reported last week the Joint Requirements Oversight Council had decided to basically shelve plans for the development of the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle the Humvees replacement.
At [acting Pentagon acquisition executive John]Youngs direction, the Army and Marine Corps are preparing a revised JLTV acquisition strategy that includes a robust technology demonstration phase to be presented to the Office of the Secretary of Defense as soon as practical, according to the acquisition executives Sept. 10 guidance to the services, a copy of which InsideDefense.com reviewed.
Youngs guidance effectively jettisoned the JLTV acquisition strategy the Army and Marine Corps proposed on Aug. 22 to OSD, seeking permission to issue requests for proposal to industry this fall and decide on a trio of vehicle makers for the first batch of humvee replacements in April 2008.
As I predicted, it looks like frantic MRAP procurement is squeezing out the Humvee replacement the services really need. Iraq involvement will wane, MRAPs will be sitting unused in motor pools and the troops will be riding around in 1980s-era Humvees for another decade at least.
OK, OK, I know Im going to get several mortar barrages about how heartless I am. But lets look at the numbers. Only 400 of the 1,500 MRAPs that are supposed to be shipped to Iraq this year have arrived. Other than Marines whod already had some in-theater, I have yet to hear of a commander that has the number hed requested. So, how is it that IED attacks are way down and that U.S. casualties have dropped like a rock over the last month?
U.S. military deaths in Iraq fell to their lowest point in more than a year in September, figures show, a continuation of a four-month decline in combat casualties that has analysts debating why…
The decline parallels a drop in casualties caused by roadside bombs, the No. 1 cause of deaths for Americans in Iraq.
According to icasualties, only 27 American troops died from improvised explosive devices, or IEDS, in September, down from the year’s peak of 88 in May. The last month when IED casualties were that low was February, when IEDs claimed 27 American lives; 81 U.S. troops died in Iraq that month.
Those statistics include EFPs, explosively formed penetrators, which can pierce armor. Top military commanders in Iraq have said those devices are coming from Iran.
Maybe theres more to protecting troops against IEDs than adding more and more armor.
Ok. I get to be the first state the obvious. Perhaps that was wonderful poetry in some other language, but … ?
Foooccccuuussss!
Back to Humvees and MRAPs.
the whole reason of adding armor to the MRAPS is because of Iran they are the ones who are supplying the terrorists in Iraq with these weapons which are killing our troops. There is even proof of weapons traveling from Iran to Iraq Im not saying that we havent done anything about we are but we should take it more seriously Iran is the problem now lets find the solution
SO why is it ok when we waste billions of dollars on this and all the media can do is complain about how few we have. When the V-22 is said to be a huge waste of time and effort, when we are putting a new combat aircraft into action? Makes me wonder.
Christian, we go over this everytime you post an MRAP article. These vehicles are not meant to replace that humvee going down an alley in Dora. They are not replacing every humvee in theater. MRAPs have survived EFPs, but when did someone officially say they were impervious to all of them? The FRAG 6 kit story was above putting them on humvees. FRAG 5 doors weigh a ton too, but you can still open and close them without too much effort.
Can you show where it was claimed and by who that the MRAP armor would stop EFPs? Official sources, not “journalists” like yourself. It’s pretty easy to make yourself look good if you assume that we are all idiots and just keep making stuff up.
If we still had surplus M48’s & M60’s,we could have taken the turrets off of them & made them into heavy transporters like Israel & Russia are doing with their old tanks their Centurions & T-55s.I completely understand the problem with troopshaving to exit from the top of the vehicles because of non-existent back doors like on regular APCs & Bradley Fighting vehicles.Also,why can’t we just incorporate an M113 “Urban-Fighter” variant into MRAP duty like the Israelis are doing.Maybe we can see if Israel would let us use some of their Merkava tanks,because it does have a back door & it can carry infantry troops in it.
This may be a little off topic, but does anyone know how EFPs do against wire rope or cable? I’m wondering if it might turn, twist, or degrade the penetrator.
If it can, you might be able to rig a wire cage, like the slat kits used for RPGs.
Roy, you mean something along these lines?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMPT
The BMPT is a good example.Also the Namera & the Achzarit.You also have modified M113s like the Nagman,Kasman,Improved Kasman,& now the Urban Fighter.We previously modified M113s to ACAV versions & sent them to Iraq,whatever happened to them?
Dennis,
Care to imagine the sccreaming if we rushed a MRAV into service at great cost only to find it didn’t preform as advertized? For that matter, did you notice that the new, bigger vehicles physically can’t fit into or travel across some of the places the Humvee CAN go? Given a choice, would you rather be on foot from the point where the streets are too narrow or the ground too soft for the MRAV, or would you rather take a less well armored Humvee?
Posted by: Cybrludite at August 18, 2007 01:45 AM
lol omg you can see into the future!!!
no seriously you know mraps arnt supposed to replace all humvees but does congress know or care? no most of them have no idea about military matters? all the mraps was was a easy copout for democrates or republicans who were rabbid for something to show how pro yeay we like soldier yeay look over here how much i care.….but no congress went over bored promised the sky and failed to deliver but its not there fault.….
ok sorry sorry back to mraps i think in situations like the UN peacekeepers are always in its a great idea but what if we go into combat against a enemy who doesnt use ied or jesus what if we get into a fight in a city with tanks comming into play so as a troop transport great idea as long as its just as a insurgent/peace keeping role
but well need a replacement for humvee for scouting, etc…
oh yea and as for fixing up m113s as transports it mite have something to do with logistics tracks dont get as many miles can be prone to breakdowns more than wheeled vehicles and if you make a bigger demand in parts thats more supply convoys to shoot at
sorry if you disagree..oh well just my thoughs
lol i still think its funny congress still is liked less than bush lol
This is old news. MRAP’s big advantages are thicker armor and v-shaped hulls that deflect blasts from underneath. EFPs require different types of armor to deflect or diffuse the molten copper jet. There will always be the issue of of bigger EFPs and EFPs made from different metals. MRAPS though do limit our enemies’ options in a very significant way. To date I do not think that there has been a death in an MRAP due to enemy action. The question remains, how much are we willing to keep spending to protect an indeterminate number of our soldiers’ lives. MRAPS and their inevitable upgrades are very expensive, but I would say they are worth every red cent.
I don’t think this is an issue. The first MRAPs were more like prototypes and early prodcution pilots. The MRAP is a spiral development, so all the current chasis are now built for easy upgrades and heavier armor packages, and more electronic gadgets.
EFPs are a small, but potentailly deadly percentage of IED’s. Obviously, as HE IEDs become less effective, the insurgents will switch to EFP/EFJ IEDs, if they can.
I do not think the US had any good EFP armor for wheeled vehicles until recentley. Now we have some good packages and can field them. This new armor has to defeat bullets, frags, and EFP, and maybe RPG, and still weigh 10–20 tons.
Of couse if Iraq becomes peaceful, you don’t need armor, and can go back to un-armored Hummers for Peacekeeping. Obviously in 4GW, brains are more effective than brawn. Since, until recently we had no brains in Iraq, we had to rely or our brawn.
The ‘rob for the future to pay the present’ argument is not valid. No one can predict the threats of the future, so whatever you buy will be wrong. Whatever vehicle is needed, it will need a V-hull and NIJ level 5 protection.
Wouldn’t it be crazy if the Israelis were actually blowing up an EFP factory when they bombed Syria a few weeks ago? And then the roadside bomb attacks mysteriously dropped off?
I remember how the Israeli Merkava was considered invincible during their patrols in either Gaza or the West Bank.It could survive mines & IED’s making it the ultimate MRAP.However,the Palestinians buried what must have been the equivalent of the MOAB in the road & blew a Merkava up to kingdom come & killing the tank crew inside.Of course they had to use an enormously huge bomb(thus my MOAB comparison) to do it.One day,the insurgents in Iraq will find a way to blow up an MRAP,however,it will take a HUGE bomb to do it,just like in Israel & the Merkava.
Deaths are not way down just because of or so much because of Al Sadr standing down his army but also because of declines in Anbar province, which a year ago was the site of the majority of U.S. casualties. Today, a casualty in Anbar is relatively rare. Am I right?
So what is your solution, whiner?
Iam not all that familiar with the MRAP. If it can carry a couple of troops, have a weapon mounted on the roof, operated by the CROWS system, then it does serve a purpose. I would feel much safer in the MRAP with a minigun or a .50 up top, operated by a Soldier using CROWS.
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