Could the USS Liberty surface as a campaign issue?
The latest news on the Liberty, the Navy spook ship attacked by Israel on June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War, is that recently released National Security Agency documents are backing up what many — including the survivors of Liberty — have been saying for 40 years: that Israel knew full well that it was attacking — with aerial strafing, napalm and torpedoes — an American vessel.
You may have read it on Military.com, one of the few news sites to run the piece in total. Other than The Chicago Tribune, which came out with the story, only The Baltimore Sun picked up the piece, according to a Google search.
It will be interesting to see is whether any presidential candidates address the latest revelations, since those from both parties frequently tout longstanding ties and mutual loyalty between the U.S. and Israel.
One candidate with a real interest in this story is Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., who five years ago endorsed a book, The Liberty Incident, that concluded it was a mistake. McCain’s interest stems from the fact that his father, the late Adm. John S. McCain, was commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Europe, at the time, and ordered the official court of inquiry to investigate the attack.
Based on the court’s findings, Adm. McCain concluded it was a case of mistaken identity. But five years ago the legal advisor to the court broke his own silence in an interview with me, calling the final report a sham, a cover-up. It was about that same time that The Liberty Incident, by A. Jay Cristol, a former Navy pilot and retired judge, hit the bookshelves.
Sen. McCain praised the book and its findings in a blurb that appeared on the back cover.
In recent months there have been more revelations about the attack and immediate aftermath, however. In June, I reported that the Navy already was calling the attack accidental in its casualty notification telegrams to next of kin even before the court of inquiry convened for the first time.
Then came the Tribune story last week, reporting that the National Security Agency’s deputy director of operations in 1967 now confirms that transcripts of U.S. intercepts of Israeli communications show the Israelis knew exactly who they were attacking.
Oliver Kirby is quoted in the Trib story as recalling the Israeli pilots several times identifying the ship as American but being told to attack anyway. While some of the original transcripts and intel have disappeared, the story reports that some of it is still in U.S. government archives.
So far, calls to McCain’s senate and campaign offices have not been returned.
– Bryant Jordan
{ 74 comments… read them below or add one }
For the most part people don’t attack other people for no reason, even less likley to go after one of your friends. So I have to ask, why would Israel do this? If this really happened (And it looks more and more like it did) that is the real question.
you have to remeber, we are “allies” not friends. If Israel thought that the US was spying on them, and deemed it a threat to their national security, they might just take out the instrument of that spying. The question I would like answered is, why did the Israelies think the Liberty was a threat, and what was it really doing there? They don’t waste jet fuel, cannon ammo, and napalm for no reason.
Dido to what Coolhand said. Why was it there? But Israel isn’t dumb enough to try and attack us, heck they ain’t stupid. Both sides seem to be at fault.
The US wasn’t even “allies” with Israel at the time. In fact, we were courting a relationship with Arabs and trying to walk a real fine line there.
Given that fact and the fact that Israel probably viewed the outcome of the Six Day War as an existential threat, why is it so shocking that they might have bombed our intelligence gathering vessel if they thought we might pass the info to the Arabs?
It’s been 40 years since the incident, and geopolitics have changed considerably. 40 years after Pearl Harbor was 1981. Do you think in 1982 many people thought it was rational to get worked up over Japanese and German atrocities from WW2?
It’s time to move on.
I just looked up a bunch of photos of the attack, and the after math. It got really banged up. It was struck by airplanes, helos, PT boats, you name it. Something was up, to much damage for it to be an accident, but not enough that they tried to sink it (in my mind). HMMMM someone needs to find out that the Liberty was doing there in the first place. Loads of rocket and cannon fire, but nothing really big (save a few torpedoes) like bombs hit her. I think I remember 38 (give or take 2-3)were killed, and a good numbered wounded. Very interesting, although I really don’t think we would be spying or anything, we would have had no need. Maybe it started as an accident, but they had to have known what they were attacking.
HMM I just found that the commander was awarded the MOH for his actions during the attack.The citation, interesting. Official body count is 34 dead, 170 wounded.
Medal of Honor citation of Captain William L. McGonagle:
“For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) in the Eastern Mediterranean on 8-9 June 1967. Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused extreme damage to the ship. Although severely wounded during the first air attack, Captain (then Commander) McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds, subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command. Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post, he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship. Despite continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense, supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the casualties. Captain McGonagle’s extraordinary valor under these conditions inspired the surviving members of the Liberty’s crew, many of them seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and keep the ship afloat. Subsequent to the attack, although in great pain and weak from the loss of blood, Captain McGonagle remained at his battle station and continued to conn his ship for more than seventeen hours. It was only after rendezvous with a United States destroyer that he relinquished personal control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge. Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated. Captain McGonagle’s superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the United States Naval Service.”
Take a look at James Ennes’ book “Assault on the liberty”. All this was outed years ago, but no one seemed to care. At least it can now been seen that Ennes wasn’t the nutcase some argued he was.
Nothing will come of this because criticism of Israel is easily spun into being anti-Semitic. Until we can get beyond this, Israel will always get a pass, no matter what they do.
It’s interesting to see the number of comments that take the “what were we doing there?” and “We wouldn’t be spying” tack.
Read ‘Inside The Puzzle Palace’ and ‘Body of Secrets’ by James Bamford.
We were spying (eavesdropping). It’s something we do, and have done for nearly a hundred years.
We had evidence, gathered by the Liberty, that Israel not only moved first in the Six Day War, but also slaughtered several hundred Egyptian prisoners in the Sinai.
Oh, and Nessuno: “Pearl Harbor was 1981. Do you think in 1982 many people thought it was rational to get worked up over Japanese and German atrocities from WW2?”
I know some Jewish people who are plenty worked up over German atrocities. And likewise some American soldiers who were experimented on by the Japanese; or Comfort Women from Korea that still can’t even get an acknowledgment from the Japanese government, let alone a simple apology for what happened to them.
It is NOT time to move on.
Justice knows no timeline, there is no statute of limitations on atrocities.
It is endemic upon functioning democracies to pursue justice until justice is done.
I think, given it was 40 years ago, I won’t be the only one to yawn and think “Yeah, okay…And the relevance to now is…what?”
If all this was reported somewhat more contemporaneously, perhaps it would have mattered.
But, jeez. 40 years later? How many of the direct participants on either side are still alive even?
“But, jeez. 40 years later? How many of the direct participants on either side are still alive even?”
34 less then would otherwise be?
A similar incident took place during the Iran-Iraq War in 1987, when an Iraqi Mirage F1 using Exocet missiles scored two direct hits on the US Navy Oliver Hazard Perry class Stark.
Yawn, history and conspiracy theories, a perfect storm of irrelevance…In related news, the British used to kidnap American sailors and the Indians would scalp and sometimes burn Colonists alive. Did we catch Pancho Villa yet? Or the one-armed man in the grassy knoll?
The US Congress is about to pass a resolution on the Armenian Holocaust that happened nearly a century ago in another part of the world. There aer Jewish Holocaust museums all over the United States, remembering evil that took place more than 60 years ago. Why bother? Because if we don’t remember evil and fight it, evil will return.
In the case of the AMERICAN sailor on USS Liberty who were murdered by Israel, we need to remember what was done to them and make the Israelis accept responsibility for their evil acts.
I realize that the pro-Israeli partisans in this country would like to sweep this under the rug, butthose of us who are loyal to this country demand accountability.
You want to talk Holocaust (not to down play the WW2 genocide) but probably the most successful holocaust was the US expansion through the west and into Mexico. Many native Americans died.
Also,
During that time in history wasn’t the US and Russia Gobbling up Allies in a mad feeding frenzy of Global Nuclear fear? It’s possible the US was monitoring Israel for Russian infiltration… or communications or anything. Also.. there are so many countries in that area… they could have been monitoring anyone (Palestine even).
Lastly,
This is just history repeating… my friend is now my enemy is now my friend.
Look at Russia (WW1 & WW2 Ally. Then cold war (enemy). Fall of the wall end of cool war (Friendly)).
Japan (US Colonial Wars expansion into pacific Islands (Occupation of Japan), WW1(?) & WW2, Modern day friendly-Ally)
1: It happened 40 years ago. I want to now what happened because I believe “those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
2: Would a truthful answer one way or the even other matter? Heck it was 40 years ago in a political environment that mean nothing today.
3: neither side is to be blamed 100%. at the most it is a 50 50 on who’s fault.
4: 34 people murdered, or killed in self defense. Does it really matter in todays world.
5: The last thing we need is to lose a great parter in the middle east like Israel.
6: This is history, not something that happened yesterday. Why does it matter, both nations were at a very different political landscape than were they are today.
7: It happened over 40 years ago.
8: It happened over 40 years ago
For a great account of this incident see James Bamford’s [i]Body of Secrets[/i]. Bamford says that the Israelis went after the Liberty because the Liberty was eavesdropping within 12 miles of a town in which the IDF was committing war crimes (i.e., executing Egyptian soldiers who had surrendered).
And why do I care about Israel killing there prisoners 40+ years ago. Honestly, if America wanted to do something about that they should have. Why did they hide what happened for so long, why not expose what they found. Maybe the Prisoners had committed War crimes, ever think about that. No one in the middle east is a saint. My only concern is this whole thing could destroy a good friendship.
Also im going to open a pack of C4 here. What if Israel had been killing there prisoners, what if they deliberately attacks the USS Liberty. What if America had been in the wrong, what if, what if, what if, what if. This is a case were we should learn from history and not read to much into this event. Israel felt threatened somehow and they eliminated that treat, how many times have we done that? 34 Americans died, and im not just saying its no big deal that they died, but that is the price you sometimes pay for spying on another country.
Ever stop and just think about why Israel has such a reputation as a country that doesn’t put up with any c**p, maybe it is because they have guts, where as American polititions have to have help standing on there own 2 feet. They take a stand and they rarely ever back down.
Honestly if you were president of Israel would you trust anyone? I know I wouldn’t.
what worries me and makes me want to see at least israeli politicos apologize to the family members/us navy for those deaths if they did accure is this
1)did israeli officers know what they where attacking(a friendly american ship)
2)where there any warnings to pull out of the area or be boreded or fired upon
3)if when the israelis found out the ships identity did they make a effort to destroy the ship and kill the surviving crew to cover it up?
look before anybody on here goes and accuses me of being mel gibson i like israel have alot of respect for them. however i do think the israelis have done alot of screwed up crap sence they went to israel. they seem to have developed a notion there beyond justice cause well there israel gods chosen whatever
point is israel is hated all over the world by lots of ppls..heck i knew a muslim guy here in TN who was nice as crap said he liked jews.but hated israel
have may middle eastern countries commited attrocities? hell yes does this give israel a free pass card no.
if we give up and say oh well who cares its in the past we betray the crew of the liberty, the families of the crew, and every man who has died for freedom JUSTICE and the american ppl as these men did
last of all god be with the souls of the crew of the liberty and the israeli ships and jets
It is important to settle this matter. Not only for the survivors and their families but for our understanding of history (and that “our” includes Israeli citizens too – they should know what their gov’t did or didn’t do).
The Liberty event is important and puzzling. Important because of the light it can shed on the relationships bet (and within) the US, Israel, and the USSR at the time. Puzzling as to what happened and why.
It seems fairly clear that there are conflicts between “official” and reasonably verified reports. It’s hard to accept Israel had no idea it was an American ship (unless they thought it was an Arab ship with a false flag – not something I’ve heard Israel claim).
But why attack? If it were to prevent the Liberty from reporting on Israeli crimes against prisoners then it seems like a strange plan “We don’t want the Americans to get mad at us for abusing Egyptians so we’ll sink a US warship and kill it’s sailors” Hmm doesn’t sound like a way to win US support.
If pro-Israeli’s in the US had enough influence to cover a deliberate attack on a US ship, surely they’d have enough influence to cover atrocities against Egyptians. Besides the attack on the Liberty failed – the info Israel would have been trying to hide should have been revealed.
If the Liberty attack were planned/cleared by top Israeli officials wouldn’t it have been better planned/executed? Pilots surprised to see a US flag, radioing back to headquarters on open airwaves, the failure to sink the ship – doesn’t sound like typical Israeli competence.
I wonder if this was a screwup by someone on a lower level who had enough pull that the higher-ups covered for him. Just a guess.
Whatever the case, the principals involved (Eshkol, Dayan, Johnson etc) are dead, time to reveal the facts. It’s better for both the US and Israel to know what happened rather that leaving us with serious evidence of a coverup.
This story contains all the necessary clues for those capable of seeing them.
1) Israel was at war.
2) The U.S. Navy had an intel ship off of the coast of Israel, not Lebanon, not Egypt, . . . but Israel.
3) We were recording the Israeli Aircraft and ground control. In intelligence you monitor your friends, but record your enemies.
Can anyone out there add two plus two.
4) Now lets ask the $10 dollar question. What was the U.S. doing with all of that wonderful intel on Israel’s communications and troop movements that they were collecting?
The Liberty was not “a friendly American ship.” The U.S. was not a hard and fast ally of Israel at the time. The U.S. forced Israel to do what was necessary for their survival.
As for James Bamford. He should have been tried and executed for treason back in the early 80′s. The joke used to be that NSA stood for No Such Agency. After Bamford it became No Secrets At all.
James
They did apologize buddy. Thats all they ow us, as I said before the 34 dead is the cost we paid for spying on them. I’m not saying we should just forget about 34 dead Americans, but every action has a price. Heck ill bet Israel wasn’t to happy about the whole incident either, but you do what you have to do. They had a reason to attack, and we had a reason to be there, so the blame is on both party’s. If anyone needs to apologize to the family’s today it is the US, they need to say what they were doing.
Body of Secrets. Get the NSA to relese the EC-121 tapes. Let the truth be told.
The USS Liberty was a US Navy/NSA Intelligence gathering vessel (much like the USS Pueblo that “wandered” into North Korean waters). The Liberty was tapping into the IDF
Jeff wrote:
“U.S. Navy had an intel ship off of the coast of Israel, not Lebanon, not Egypt”…
…”What was the U.S. doing with all of that wonderful intel … they were collecting?”
The Liberty was off the coast of the Sinai, where Israeli and Egyptian forces were doing battle. I don’t think it suspicious that the US would be interested in direct knowledge of what was happening between Israel and the Arab states. While Israel was not closely allied with the US at the time, it was generally allied with the west, while the Arab states (particularly Syria, with the exception of Jordan) were more in the Soviet sphere. The Soviets were meddling in the area (some reports state the USSR was even providing the Egyptians with distorted intel to encourage them to attack) so I’d expect the US to want active intel assets in the area (US did fly SR71s over the region during the 73 war).
Jonah, Interesting theory, it does answer some questions but raises others. What was the goal of the US in providing the Egyptians with intel? Is there any indication the Egyptians made use of such info? Weren’t the Egyptians and Syrians getting intel from the Soviets? Are all the US tapes and transcrips fabrications and the witnesses dupes or liars? If the reports of Israeli communications are true then why were the Israeli forces not observing radio silence or disinfo tactics (tell the pilots to radio they think it’s an Egyptian ship)?
Does strengthen the argument that it is worth trying to get the facts out.
John Loftus?
Now there’s an unimpeachable source.
“John Loftus?
Now there’s an unimpeachable source”.
Posted by: TB at October 11, 2007 11:43 AM
As opposed to what? Some half-assed web-site that contains “transcripts” that we are to take as being unabridged and unadulterated? Why? Is their “truth” anymore credible than that of Mr. Loftus? Why? Because the cannon fodder on board the Liberty say so and are loathe to place the blame or any blame for that matter at the feet of their superiors and political masters? Why? Because its so hard for them to believe that their goverment would operate in such a criminal and duplicitous manner? Please.
Mitch,
Re.”What was the goal of the US in providing the Egyptians with intel? Is there any indication the Egyptians made use of such info?”
As to the first question, I find it interesting that the same people who have no problem believing that Jewish Neo-Cons are manipulating US foreign policy are suspicious when it is claimed that Arabists(ie-The Oil Lobby) at the Dept of Defense and State have had a stranglehold on Mid-East policy in this country for better part of the last 50 years. This being evidenced by our support over the years for such stalwart friends of the US such as Saddam Hussein, The house of Saud, Muammar Quaddafi(of late)and yes, the Shah of Iran.
As to the second question, I gave you a more or less comprehensive bibliography. Go read.
Don’t expect Senator McCain to say or do squat. For all his hot air about political contribution reform, he and the rest of the Hill Dwellers fill their pants at the thought of being cut off by AIPAC. At the time of the attack, no senior navy officers were willing to fall on their sword and stand up to the King of the Whiz Kids, the Secretary of Defense, and President Johnson when they twice recalled US carrier aircraft launched to prevent additional attacks on the Liberty.
Such a disloyal act on the part of the Commander-in-Chief deserves ex-post-facto impeachment. Don’t expect Israel to ever tell the truth about why they made the attack. We now know it was no accident.
The US Navy will never forget what happened, and they will never again fail to respond to comrads in peril.
When we have an idiot or coward in the White House, we have a real problem. Has anyone noticed that?
I am amazed at how many people support Israels attack on an American vessel and their killing of American military personnel.
Truly, Israel can do no wrong.
It’s not about Israel doing right or wrong. It’s about holding Israel to the same standard of behaviour to which you hold yourselves.I love it when American exceptionalism rears its ugly head. One of the more fascinating aspects of American society is the collective belief that when America does wrong, it’s for the greater good(you know, like when we bombed and napalmed a small asian country for 15 years in order to “save” them from communism. When other countries have to do what is in their best interests it’s always for some nefarious reason. Please. Get over your self-righteous selves and stop behaving as if your sh*t doesn’t stink.
BTW I checked out the Wikipeda article on the Liberty. Yeah, I know Wikipedia, still it has a good gathering of various theories, claims and conflicting opinions.
“…Mr. Bamford’s first book, The Puzzle Palace (1982), was the first book published about the National Security Agency (NSA). The book was researched through extensive use of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). As a super-secret agency, the NSA was quite concerned about their unveiling to the world and accordingly, the government acted to stop publication. He published Body of Secrets (also about the NSA, 2001), and A Pretext for War (2004).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bamford
In regards to;
“…For a great account of this incident see James Bamford’s [i]Body of Secrets[/i]. Bamford says that the Israelis went after the Liberty because the Liberty was eavesdropping within 12 miles of a town in which the IDF was committing war crimes (i.e., executing Egyptian soldiers who had surrendered).”
It would appear that Mr. Bramfords reasearch rests soley on the information and unsubstantiated allegations cherry picked for popular consumption by the NSA.
“…Actually, hiding
There may be more to this episode:
Recently on a BookTV program during a discussion of the book “Foxbats Over Dimona”, in which the Soviets tried to provoke the Israelis by overflying the Dimona complex and also by landing Speznav forces on Israeli soil, it was revealed that there was a Soviet fleet in the eastern Mediterranean.
To avoid a military confrontation, the U.S. fleet pulled back to the western Med.
HOWEVER, the USS Liberty stayed in the eastern Med.
It is possible that the Israeli’s may have attacked the Liberty thinking that it was NOT a U.S. vessel and thinking it was operating under a false flag.
If you get a chance to view the bookTV discussion of “Foxbats over Dimona, see if you can watch it or record it.
Some of the shows are available for direct viewng on http://www.booktv.org
Read about “Foxbats..”. USSR pushed Nasser to attack Israel so the USSR could take out Dimona. Geez, the theories never end.
Jonah, I ordered the Loftus book.
If you want to continue the conversation drop me a note at topsmaps@verizon.net (others welcome too).
As I noted earlier the Bamford theory makes no sense – “Let’s blast a US ship so we don’t get in trouble for killing Egyptians…” huh?!!?
OK, you guys DO realize that John Loftus was fired by Fox News, right? And that he’s the same guy that somehow still gets writing gigs for such luminaries as WorldNetDaily and doing articles about the connections between the Nazis and the Bush family.
And you DO realize that James Bamford is a national lecturer and a distinguished visiting professor at the University of California, Berkeley. In addition to being a published author since 1982 He was also the first author to write a book with the full cooperation of the NSA.
See, one of these guys is a total hack that even the knuckle-dragging limbic cases at Fox couldn’t put up with, and the other guy is James Bamford.
Now, feel free to go ahead and pay attention to, and quote whoever you want to, but if you go around holding up guys like John Loftus as some sort of paragon of thought and journalistic integrity, don’t expect anyone to take you any more seriously then the attendees at a UFO convention.
“He was also the first author to write a book with the full cooperation of the NSA.”
Gee, well obviously case closed. As we all well know, the NSA would never lie to the American people or the world about its activities. The very idea that they would use a former US Navy officer to whitewash their activities is beyond the pale. As long as you’re in the market, I have a bridge in Brooklyn and some swamp land in Florida that I would be willing to let go for a song.
“And you DO realize that James Bamford is a national lecturer and a distinguished visiting professor at the University of California, Berkeley. In addition to being a published author since 1982 He was also the first author to write a book with the full cooperation of the NSA.”
And yet, with all these credentials, Mr. Bamford still felt it necessary to lie and obfuscate.
To wit;
“…Bamford cites two sources for the second paragraph, an article from the New York Times and one from Newsday, which according to Newsday
TB,
“..don’t expect anyone to take you any more seriously then the attendees at a UFO convention.”
It would appear that we are lisening to the bloviations of someone who speaks from a position borne out of foreknowledge and experience. When you show up at these things, do you wear a costume? What do you call yourself; Darth Moron?
Oh and BTW. There is a chasm of difference between making an error based on obsolete intel and simply fabricating entire details of history.
I wonder if you or Mr. Bamford know the difference.
“…Whatever the explanation for Bamford
“James Bamford is a national lecturer and a distinguished visiting professor at the University of California, Berkeley.”
“…John Joseph Loftus (born February 12, 1950, in Boston, Massachusetts) is an American author, former US government prosecutor and former Army intelligence officer. He is a president of The Intelligence Summit and a president of the Florida Holocaust Museum, the first Irish Catholic president of that institution. Loftus serves on the Board of Advisers to Public Information Research. He is a resident of St. Petersburg, Florida.”
“…Son of a Boston firefighter,[2] Loftus was a graduate of Boston College (BA, 1971) and Suffolk University (JD, 1977). He served in the US Army from 1971 to 1974, attaining the rank of First Lieutenant. He began working for the US Department of Justice in 1977 and in 1979 joined their Office of Special Investigations, which was charged with prosecuting and deporting Nazi war criminals in the US.”
“Those who can do, do. Those who can’t,…teach.”
Gee Jonah, 5 straight posts over the course of 3 hours with more than 1800 words.
How do you type so fast with all that cheeto dust on your fingers?
BTW, you wouldn’t be Jonah Goldberg would you?
That would explain a lot
Woa guys, time to cool things down. It’s exactly these kinds of emotional arguments that shut down honest debate whether it’s about the Mid-East, Global Warming, 9/11 or Dragon Skin armor.
Didn’t know the story about Loftus’s firing – that is a big oops and backs up my feeling that Loftus is weak on fact checking (if he was left leaning he could work for the NY Times!). I’ll be reading his book with a skeptical eye.
The problems with Bamford have been discussed earlier. I’d like to add that it’s foolish to be dazzled by fancy acedemic degrees. Hey even the UFO kidnapping crowd has a Harvard doctor in their ranks.
Jonah Goldberg? – gee I didn’t know Lucianne’s kid made a career out of the Lewinsky thing.
I prefer to follow thw line of another media star: Joe Friday. His motto: “Just the facts (ma’am), just the facts”
vicious Zionist
OK, that explains it.
So now that we all understand each other, why don’t you save the smarmy anti-semitism thats trying pass itself off as some sort of scholarly endeavour, for someone who might me more like-minded. You know, an imbecile.
jonah…..if you repeat a lie often enough those that are too busy to check the facts may believe the lies and you are a zionist who obviously follows the dictum that the ends justafies the means. it is a shame that so many christians and jewish people cannot see through the mists of lies put forth by a few zionist leaders that have become the thugs and truely primary terrorists of the world. go to you tube and search RING OF POWER part2….als try the ussliberty web site at http://www.ussliberty.com. Try TRUTH for a change.
To Phillip F Tourney
Survivor USS Liberty AGTR 5,
When you can cite independent sources(ie-more than one, along with the accomanying corroborating evidence) that have nothing to do with the NSA, the crew of the USS Liberty, James Ennes, etc. please let me know. Until then you’re a former member of the U.S. Navy, who has a vested interest in covering up and obfuscating the activities of your shipmates and political masters. As I stated before, you and your shipmates got EXACTLY what was coming to you, and you only have your superiors to blame for putting you in harms way in the first place.
“jonah…..if you repeat a lie often enough those that are too busy to check the facts may believe the lies and you are a zionist who obviously follows the dictum that the ends justafies the means. it is a shame that so many christians and jewish people cannot see through the mists of lies put forth by a few zionist leaders that have become the thugs and truely primary terrorists of the world.”
Boy, talk about run on sentences. Haven’t you ever heard of punctuation?
To Stephen Coyle,
You are entitled to believe or disbelieve anything you want. I am not trying nor would I try to disabuse you of any of of your fantasies. I’m simply stating an opinion and supporting that opinion by citing various websites and publications. You on the other hand obviously feel that your opinion should be taken as the Holy Writ with out supplying any evidence to support it. I wonder why?
To Jonah,
In your response to Phil Tourney you wrote, “Until then you’re a former member of the U.S. Navy, who has a vested interest in covering up and obfuscating the activities of your shipmates and political masters.”
For decades Phil and the rest of the USS Liberty survivors have actively advocated for a complete and comprehensive public investigation of the attack on the USS Liberty.
Given that, how can you support them implication that Phil and the survivors are trying to cover-up the activities of their shipmates?
Getting back to the subject of the article, don’t you think that Senator McCain has a vested interest in refusing to support an investigation of the attack on our ship?
I’ll throw out a few facts about the attack on the USS Liberty that you are free to accept or reject depending on whatever you use to determine the veracity of what I write. I know they are true and that’s good enough for me.
1. The attack on the USS Liberty included the first torpedoing of a US Navy ship since the end of World War II.
2. The attack on the USS Liberty was initiated by unmarked aircraft and included the deliberate machine gunning of American life rafts in the water.
3. Two flights of rescue aircraft that had been dispatched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers were recalled while the ship was still under attack. This is the first time in American history that a US Navy ship was ordered to be abandoned while still under fire. This is also a capital violation of Article 99 of the UCMJ.
4. According to the Legal Advisor to the US Navy Court of Inquiry the findings of the Court were predetermined and the Report of the Court of Inquiry is, in fact, a forgery.
Warmest regards,
Joe Meadors
USS Liberty Survivor
Director of Operations
USS Liberty Veterans Association
Website: http://www.ussliberty.com
Email: joe@ussliberty.com
Mr.Meadors,
“For decades Phil and the rest of the USS Liberty survivors have actively advocated for a complete and comprehensive public investigation of the attack on the USS Liberty.”
I beg to differ sir. To wit;
American investigations
Ten official American investigations are claimed regarding the Liberty incident, including:
The CIA Report of 1967
The Clark Clifford Report of 1967
The Joint Chief of Staff’s Report, on U.S. communications failures.
The NSA Report of 1981 including recordings of intercepted Israeli military radio transmissions and translated transcripts of post-attack helicopter pilots.
The Senate Foreign Relations Committee Testimony of 1967
The U.S. Naval Court of Inquiry as released under FOIA (see below)
Critics — including an active group of survivors from the ship — assert that five U.S. congressional investigations and four other U.S. investigations were not investigations into the attack at all, but rather reports using evidence only from the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry, or investigations unrelated to the culpability of the attack but rather discussing issues such as communications. In their view, the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry is the only investigation on the incident to date. They claim it was hastily conducted, in only 10 days, even though the court
You may find this hard to belive, but I’ve yet to peruse Mr. Cristol’s writings on the subject.
“Who are we to believe? Jonah? Israeli spokesmen such as Jay Cristol? Or eyewitness survivors and the Library of Congress which tells us there has never been a Congressional investigation”
The fact sir, that you felt it necessary to label Mr.Cristol an “Israeli spokesman”(it’s my understanding that Mr. Cristol is in fact an American, not Israeli)leads me to believe that you are more concerned with scapegoating the Israeli’s and pointing out Mr. Cristol’s Hebraic heritage rather than actually discovering what happened and who is responsible. So much for objectivity. Speaking of objectivity, again I must query what make’s you believe that your status as an “eyewitness”(eyewitness to what exactly?) does not leave your interpretations of the event open to question. You were serving aboard an intelligence gathering vessel sir. That fact above all others inpugns the credibilty of your account.
Seeing something and then giving me your narrative of what happened doesn’t prove your telling the truth about anything.
The fact that no less personages than;
Joe Meadors
USS Liberty Survivor
Director of Operations
USS Liberty Veterans Association
Website: http://www.ussliberty.com
Email: joe@ussliberty.com
and
the great, unimpeachable, James Ennes himself felt obliged to come to this site and debate a largely anonymous and powerless voice in the wilderness leads me to believe that somebody, somewhere, is worried about something.
What with time running out and everybody rushing to cover their ass before the Christmas rush, you guy’s ought to step into the 21st century and learn how to google.
1967 Hearings of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Declassified transcripts of dozens of closed hearings of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee from 1967 have now been published.
The hearings feature testimony by Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms and other Johnson Administration officials on Soviet nuclear weapons policy, anti-ballistic missiles, Vietnam, the Middle East, and other topics of contemporary concern.
See “Executive Sessions of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Together with Joint Sessions with the Senate Armed Services Committee (Historical Series),” Volume XIX, 1967, made public in 2007.
http://www.fas.org/blog/secrecy/2007/04/1967_hearings_of_the_senate_fo.html
“You have assumed a position that holds that it is permissible to abandon an American military unit while that unit is under fire.”
I have done nothing of the sort. Your gov’t assumed that position. The fact that you ever expected them to do otherwise means you’re an idiot,who has no understanding of the country, society, or the world you live in. The very idea that you ever thought that were anything but expendable as far as the US Navy, The Office of Naval Intelligence, or the NSA was concerned is pathetic and laughable.
Jonah,
Can we prove it? “It” being the fact that the Israelis used unmarked aircraft and jammed our radios on both US Navy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies?
Of course.
I “have assumed a position that holds that it is permissible to commit war crimes” by actively pursuing a course that would result in a complete and comprehensive public investigation of the attack on the USS Liberty?
Neat trick.
Warmest regards,
Joe
Anybody who is interested in somewhat more objective viewpoints re. The Libert Incident other than that of John Loftus or James Ennes, I would recommend this website;
http://members.aol.com/libertyincident/index.html
I found this gentleman’s cynicism, incredulousness, and acerbic wit refreshing after all the half-assed patriotism and flag waving that has apparently become par for the course everytime Mr Ennes and his buddies beg you to put aside critical thinking and logical thought and just take their unassailable word for it.
Oh. You mean like the doctored photo’s that regularly appear on the LVA website?
To wit;
“…While the narration is full of various types of misrepresentations it is the doctored USN photo which jumps right out at the viewer, and pretty much sums up how ridiculous has become the LVA story. The below doctored photo is displayed by the LVA as supposedly representing how easy it would have been for the Israeli jet pilots to have seen Liberty’s flag (as if the attacking jets flew that low and that close.) The quote is:
“D) The big AMERICAN FLAG.”
http://members.aol.com/libertyincident/RGxxfakephoto.html
reviewing various myths, stories and tales
surrounding the USS Liberty incident
“…one photo, two different tales
Sounds like U.S. Citizens should follow the zionist advice and take out all sources of spying in the U.S. Which are mostly Israeli.
When Zionists find God the world will love them again. Maybe.
jonah, are you a hasbara-sayanim internet patroller? your sources have been exposed many times. the author of the “liberty incident” was totally discredited for lies you are repeating here. you and your comrades have no regard for truth, humanity, the people of united states or even israeli people. you can’t conceal the truth with your veil of fraud over here in the usa forever bub. stay in israel where you are probably better off. your propaganda will be obliterated every time in the comapny of usa veterans and active duty personnel. we americans (jews and non-jews alike) trust dozens of usa naval veterans (jews and non-jews alike) and conscientious israeli pilots, over the agents of a nation that committed false flag terror missions and espionage against our country over the decades. some of us already know how your mossad and idf agents are undermining our guys over in iraq and afghanistan. just like you did in lebanon in ’83. most people don’t know about that, but the usa state dept knows and so does the cia and some in the pentagon. one more thing, you israeli agents have a way of acting like israel represents judaism. but it’s not even close. learn COMPASSION, JUSTICE and TRUTH before you lay claim to any holy land on my behalf or in the name of G-D!
2 ans the 2 dopes ques above
1.why
this was a false flag op to suck usa into a war and blame egypt for the attack on liberty. this way just like iraq the zionists sit back as we waste our treasure and blood
and they reap all the rewards free. 2.its never time too move on cause when we did they exec. 911.
google – ZIONIST CRIMES -
THESE ROTTEN ZIONIST TRAITORS EXEC. 911
ZAKHEIM,WOLFASHIT,SILVERSTIEN,ZOMBIE SHARON.
BUT THERE DATE WITH DESTINY IS COMING AS
” THE BLOOD OF OUR COMRADES WILL FUEL THE ROCKETS THAT END THE ZIONIST REGIME. “
Johan:
I’ve skimmed through some of the messages prior to this and am astounded at the things you have said and the syntax used to express them.
I dedicated twenty years of my life to the service of my country and my principal mission was eavesdropping.
Israel attacked the USS Liberty to prevent the United States knowing they were going beyond agreed to boundries. Where would Israel be without the unmitigated support of the Super Power? I don’t think you want a picture such as that to become reality.
For another government (?) to slap a benefactor in the face in such a manner is shameful. Consider the loss of life (fathers. brothers, sons and husbands) from this incident, it really puts an ugly face on Israel.
I will gurantee you that the intelligence gathered was not passed to your opposition, as you stated. If that is so, you really have a super ‘inside’ source that governments would kill for so, watch out, someone wants you for some reason.
Lynn
dont let the uss liberty be forgoten just because 40 yrs has gone by
I have reviewed as much as possible relating to the USS Liberty incident based on as many sources as possible, and tried to challenge sources where I can.
I do not believe that the attack could have been an error or a mistake. I believe it was a deliberate attempt to sink a US Navy ship and bring the US into the war on the part of Israel. Or rather, if there were mistakes, it was simply that the ship wasn’t successfully sunk with all hands aboard. It was therefore nothing short of cold-blooded murder.
What we don’t know is who was responsible and where the blame should be laid. That is why we need a full Congressional investigation. We did this when another ally of ours at the time fired rockets at the USS Stark. Why not now? What are people afraid of?
Fear of the truth is the surest way to create fear of others based on lies.
israel is expendable as far as I am concerned…..G-D
I have been reading about the USS Liberty for years now. I feel so sad that our patriotic soldiers are being annoyed and harassed — for trying to get the TRUTH out, trying to PROTECT AMERICANS from other possible attacks by our “ally”. If the truth does not come out all over the media now, how can we prevent history from repeating itself? We can’t.
I was surprised to read about the Israeli pilot at the scene who reported back to base that the vessel was American, and when he was commanded to continue the attack he chose not to, facing arrest on his return to base.
For the pilot’s story to have come out some 25 years ago, corroborated by the fact that the whole radio exchange was overheard by the US Embassy in London as well as by other radio operators… it’s just amazing that people still refuse to acknowledge this intentional slaughter of US military personnel.
My heart goes out to the victim’s families who still have not seen justice done 40 years later… and to those survivors who have been brave in standing up for their country, even though our politicians will not stand by them.
American citizens are easily duped by their government. U.S. history is cluttered with examples of government feeding false information to forward their own agenda. It’s amazing how it happens over and over with citizen acceptance. Most Americans are sheep and will not question authority. Most of them do not want to be labeled “unpatriotic” or “unamerican” and go with the status quo. Even when it is against their own self interest. The attack on the USS Liberty by the state of Israel over 40 years ago is evidence that we were never allies. This relationship has been destructive to America and will continue as long as its citizens do not question its leadership.
Reasons why the attack on the Liberty try the following
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/aug/08/israel
Can anybody tell me where I can get a photocopy that I can download of the transcript of the intercept where Israelis identified the ship as being an American ship?
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Jonah: You are a chuckle head. Joe is way to kind. You need to take your israeli passport and go back to your home country. McCain has israel so far up his asss he’s shittting bagels. He is a tool. Sadly Obama is worse….but I will not lower myself to vote for Mccain…I’ll hit Barr and walk out with my integrity.
stanford
Jonah is obviously a Troll, working overtime for his Zionist Thug Murdering Masters. USS Liberty Survivors have exposed him for the Coward and Troll he is. Jonah, go tell your Masters the Jig is up. You are doomed to fail in any and all assinine attempts at covering for such a vile bunch of Criminal murdering bastards. Warmest Regards you SOB!
I would think that if a report was filed in a court of law, along with a request, then the report could be progressed through simple filings offered by the court of law. Legal Motions to expedite are available to anything filed within the frame of law – but, military law doesn’t exactly follow the same rules as the civilian courts – the UCMJ is treated as a separate entity altogether and is unique to the constitution with certain “civic demands.”
If that upsets Jonah – or anyone else from another country who is just a little too critical and curious of how we Americans run our military, then I would submit that “it” be all the more reason to further investigate … in other words Jonah, reading your bull shit on this site has proven one thing to the general public…that you defeat your protectionist need with your attitude alone and you project your want for cover up too much, lending credence for the need for an open investigation altogether.
Why is it so hard to get entities to answer simple questions, withstanding national security points of interests?
Anyone who presupposes that the US government acts without honor, nor integrity ought to know better as well – just when you think you know why something may have been, more information comes to bear fruit on the subject putting it in new light…and most often times that information is Classified for good reason – it may connect or lay claim to a whole separate subject outside of relevance to the primary question.
Demonizing “big brother” is to assume that your brother is not acting in our best interest – especially regarding any foreign country’s interest in the US and our society or way of life.
As for now – our open source intelligence is very strong indeed – but its unique relevance without all information is of no consequence other than fodder for pop culture (to feed the beast, so to speak).
In other words Jonah, don’t for a minute think that the US doesn’t have information already…after all everything has a price – money is only a tool, almost as effective as “technology.”
Why certain things are “covert” (or covered up) are of no concern to everyday citizens and the “need to know” perquisite exists for good reason – that is unless an individual has something to hide which is not covered under the constitution which lay all rights and responsibilities out for every private citizen, as well as foreign.
Signed
Intelligence
“the anti-jonah”
ps – jonah, if the israeli’s are responsible for 911 – as a type wake up call I suppose – would you blame them? Is Bin Laden a Sharon cronie now? Is he Jewish? Are you one of those who believes that is father was CIA? Explain his taped confession and need for jihad. Who benefited the most of all from the attacks – what country?
Guys, the whole damn thing was a coverup, I know. My USNSCC (US Naval Sea Cadets) unit is the Liberty (AGTR-5) unit. One of the officers in my unit is a survivor of the attack. He’s told us that the whole thing was a coverup. Besides, it would be pretty damn hard NOT to see a huge American battle flag flying.
I didn’t read all the comments, but it looks like all you guys who don’t believe the story like this “Jonah” need to just listen to the guy that was actually there. To Mr. Joe Meadors, Sir, I am honored to be a part of Liberty (AGTR-5) Division and honor you and your crew’s actions and valor during the incident.
Seaman Recruit Matt Singleton
Liberty (AGTR-5) Division
US Naval Sea Cadet Corps
http://libertyagtr5div.org/