The top two U.S Air Force leaders lobbied Capitol Hill for their service Oct. 24, suggesting lawmakers help extend the F-22 Raptor production line with 20 more of the Lockheed Martin fighters than currently budgeted.
Seeking to bolster the Air Force as lawmakers hammer out fiscal 2008 defense legislation and the Bush administration mulls its FY ’09 request, Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne and Gen. T. Michael Moseley, Air Force chief of staff, further indicated their desire for more Boeing C-17s, retirement of Lockheed C-5As and for the service’s ability to take over the Joint Cargo Aircraft (JCA) program from the Army.
Wynne and Moseley told the House Armed Services Committee (HASC) that they do not want any ongoing production lines to close, and in fact they hope to increase the number of F-22s until the Lockheed-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is well into production. They acknowledged their proposal was deemed unfeasible by the Office of Secretary of Defense, which apparently said it could “break the bank.”
Alluding to concerns with slower rollout of the two fighters under current plans, Wynne noted that Air Combat Command’s requirement for 381 F-22s is unchanged despite plans for only 183 now. Meanwhile, requirements for 1,763 JSFs would be met only incrementally until 2025.
Read the rest of this Aviation Week story HERE.
– Christian
{ 28 comments… read them below or add one }
Id say go up to the original 381 or more. For people who think we dont need airplanes anymore, look at the Military.com headline just this morning. USAF jets burned 60+ terrorists, in a single mission. Now account that maybe half were killed by the 4 bombs, id say thats dang impressive. Iran is heating up to so we will need every extra plane we can get.
With the exception of making JCA an AF-only program (dumb, irresponsible, and ill-conceived), they are making great points. Continuing to drag the C-5 along is wasteful and not strategically sound. What’s not being said in the F-22 argument is that the more F-22s the AF is allowed to purchase, the more willing they’ll be to defer some F-35s until later in favor of other priorities.
Id agree with you moose. Id like to see the C-5 still be used but I think the C-17 is as large as you need to go (cant wait for the C-17 gunship). The USAF is vital and seeing it get gutted makes me sick.
Good, hopefully this means 203 Raptors instead of just 183. Perhaps another 20 can be squeezed into future budgets this way too, and so extend the Raptor line.
22LR, I wholeheartedly support your idea of going to 381 and beyond but it’s not going to happen. =(
ONE MORE TIME!!!
The Air Force did this to themselves! Funding 32 B2 bombers–an aircraft that still needs radar jammers in order to attack high value targets…an aircraft that costs as much as a ship and now they complain about funding! Failure to update the still capable F-15 with AESA, the 22′s engines and electronics! The Air Force could have war winners without the added expense of research into new airframes if they did an evolutionary approach to modernization instead of attempting a revolution in each new aircraft. They’re having a come to Jesus moment– I recall the Congress having to FORCE the Air Force to accept more C-17′s! They beg for control of the JCA program when Army request for in-theater transport goes ignored! GET REAL BLUE BOYS!
Dude I think your the only person I have ever heard of who is against the B-2. Heck, the most survivable combat aircraft ever. All I know is that is is a dang lot more stealthy than a BUFF (dont get me wrong im a huge BUFF fan). The B-2 gave us a capability that we never had before. Dang what are ya thinking. Last I remember the AF wasn’t forced to get more C-17s but was very glad to take em.
Ya I know 381 22s will never happen but I like to dream.
Hey “Dude”
Name one engagement the B2 has participated in? Name one in which the B2 flew as promised..alone and unafraid. Tell me the total tonnage dropped by B2′s in combat. Bet you can’t because its too “precious” to risk. Its abilities are all theoretical.
A quick google will reveal the Air Force being force fed C-17s. So yeah “Dude” all of the above is what I was thinking.
Oh and Kosovo doesn’t count because it flew as part of strike packages, Afghanistan was undefended and over Iraq it was again assigned defenders. As far as I’m concerned the B2 is a lemon. B52s do the same job as the B2 has so far and in the same fashion. EA-6′s jamming, FA-18s and F-16s shooting HARMS. So tell me again how great your warbird is.
Jeez, Sol, by that reasoning these nuclear weapons we’ve had for the past 60 years are a complete waste, since instead of blowing the hell out of another country we “only” got to use them as deterrence.
Isn’t this thread about C-17s and F-22s?
Well, OK. As far as the B-2 goes, it was probably designed for another war or two, but an EB-2 ELINT or Tacit Blue-style targeting platform would make for a different kind of animal. Ditto stealth cruise, stealth PGM and/or UAV deployment. The BUFF can’t handle the same mission spread. But, WTF do I know?
As far as F-22s, well, the Japanese (and, an Australian or two) are interested, and keeping the production line going might be possible, if we allowed export. Not that LockMart or the USAF would lobby for that kind of thing.
As far as the C-17 vs. C-5 goes, someone here pointed out a while ago that the C-5 can handle large, outsized packages that the C-17 can’t. For example, I recall the C-5 launching an ICBM off the stern ramp, way back in the day.
Of course, we don’t need to do that now, but SSTO satellite launches, by way of example, well…golly, I don’t know.
Last year the Air Force was adamant about only needing 180 C-17s, and Congress made them build pieces of a dozen more planes. Either they were smarter than the Air Force, or looking for pork, I don’t know. But now the Air Force is saying they need more. Either their airlift requirement changed overnight or they think that’s the only plane they can actually get money for without a fight.
Moose
Strategic Nuclear Missiles are a totally different subject, but I understand you perfectly. The issue is if they(B2s) are a strategic weapon who’s function is to penetrate heavily defended airspace (airspace that our legacy fleet needs support to enter) then they’ve been a huge failure. Kosovo was their first chance at the apple and the Air Force and Navy/Marines escorted them. If the defenses of Kosovo, Iraq and probably soon Iran would indicate a need for escort, then how would they fair against a first class anti-air network? I think that even today it would require the same support network as the B1…possibly more if you count the propaganda value if one were to be shot down. Besides the Air Force showed their underwear on the topic of the B2 with their plans to develop a deep penetration bomber by 2018(?).
One question I do have for anybody who can answer it. Why the request for 381 F22s??? Why not 400? 375? Why the 381 number.
Solomon, just because Barry Sanders can make 4 tacklers miss doesn’t mean you send him out on the field without some good blockers (well, actually, I guess you do, if you’re the GM of the Detroit Lions — hopefully we don’t run our military like the Lions, though).
As I’m sure you know, the B2 is expensive. Even though it should be able to penetrate heavily defended airspace without assistance, that does not mean that you should send it in alone when that assistance is available. There’s no point in taking any risk with a $2B airplane when you don’t have to.
Solomon, The AF funded 22 B-2′s not 32. And I can tell you that they are capable aircraft. They can penetrate defended airspace just fine. They are bigger and have a lower RCS than the F-117. Their draw backs are that they are limited in number and are intense maintance hogs. Those limitations, plus reduceing the B-1, and B-52 fleet are driving the AF’s need for a new strike aircraft. Oh, and by the way B-1′s have no penetration mission.
The Israeli stike on the reactor (or whatever the hell it was) in Syria used F-15′s, no fancy stealth crapola, and got through the vaunted Russian defenses without much trouble.
All of these “stealth” toys are overpaid and underperforming, just like the NY Yankees.
Sol:
Somebody with a calculator did some division, and the numbers came out to 381. My guess is, the number they really want is some percentage shy of that.
Don’t think about it too much, buddy. You’ll only get upset.
Solomon,
The B-2 isn’t used much because it’s a strategic asset. There’s only 21 of them, and there are cheaper aircraft that can be used as bomb trucks. They should be regarded the same way as a Trident sub or a Minuteman missile.
The Air Force originally wanted 750 F-22s, and the appropriations kept getting hacked back. 381 was the supposed floor number that the Air Force established in the 1990s, accounting for a certain number of fighter wings, plus spares, and also included some assumptions about economies of scale. One thing is for certain: there are a lot more F-15s in service now than there will be F-22s to replace them. I can’t blame the Air Force for trying to buy what fighters they can.
Sol if memory serves me correctly the B-2 was flying alone at the begining of Allied Force. After the F-117 was shot down the AF over reacted, as is frequently the case, and thus we began to see more escort planes. I dont know all their operational considerations, so its hard to determine if any accompanying aircraft are needed. The B-2, F-117, and F-22 are not totally invisible to radar, and thus there could be times when a hole needs to be blasted in the radar coverage. In the early stages of a conflict,we might not have complete air control, in that case some fighter protection might be necisary.
As for the F-22being tasked to take out SAM’s I dont know what they have been rated for or what the plan is to rate them. As for the B-1′s continued existence, you would have to ask the members of congress that fought to keep them around. In the B-1′s defense it found a good niche over Afghanistan and Iraq. It served as a good bomb bus, with its supersonic speed it was able to get to its aimpoints faster than the B-52.
I am assuming the 381 number came from needing x number of wings/squandrons times the number of planes per unit plus training planes + spares.
The 381 F-22 number was arrived at by Congress. Since Congress has no memory or honor, that number has been cut time and again by politians more interested in buying votes than fulfilling their obligations to provide for the common defense. When I was serving by in the hollow 1970s we would talk about how enlistment contracts bound only the enlistee not the government. It seems that time has only proven us correct. Those in government, elected or not, should be held to their oaths of office and the preamble of the Constitution as a minimum. Perhaps now, we the voters will start doing our part. If not I fear for my Country!
If anyone know about the C-17 it was a McDonnell Douglas built airplane, and they never built a plane that could not be stretched I bet the C-17 can do the same.
I note that most that are against additional modern aircraft seem to have the same type same mindset that says bolt-action rifles were good enough for my great-grandad so they are good enough for me. What worked 10 years ago won’t nessessarily work now against modern systems. In addition, most of thse legacy aircraft are 25-35 years old and worn out. That includes the F-15, C-5, B-52, F-14, F-18A, ect. As a former maintainer I can testify that it is had work to keep old s__ flying even IF you can find parts.
Tactically the Buff only works if you control the air. The folks that bitch about the cost ignore that the expensive R&D is already done on the F-22 and the unit cost is much less now if R&D is subtracted.
And yes the Air Force is stepping in it by trying to take over an existing Army flight development program. They didn’t want the AC in the first place so why should the be given control of the program?
Leave the C-5 program as is. A great airplane during it’s time but time to up grade. C-17 and C-130′s are what the country needs. The JCA is also very important and I believe that the number requested by the AF and the Army is not enough.
Logistics will make or break our country. The troops need Beans and Wiennies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noshir_Gowadia
Just how stealthy will the B-2 be now that Noshir sold stealth secrets to Iran, China, etc?
As for the F-22, the issue of cost seems like a gigantic scam. Congress spends (and the Treasury Dept prints) whatever money Congress has or does not have as the whim and lobbyist pressures strike them. The inflation result hits us like a back-door income tax, destroying our savings. By failing to set a hard-core limit on deficit spending, Congress has made a joke out of all the whining about the cost of the gadgetry of war.
Don’t worry, eventually, the Air Force will get the F-22s it needs.
The Air Force and the rest of the services had better look out. And I mean watch out for the Democrats especially Hilliary. All would not bat an eye to cancel badly needed F-22s, C-17s etc.
Remember she loathes the military along with her unfaithful husband. The JCS better grab all they can now cause if by chance the Dems keep hold of the Congress & Senate plus win the White House look out.
My negative, as my bosss brother was very sad. He said venting to find out the game we play games together, together fight monster, how to kill on how to kill. Later, we played the GuildWars game, my brother helped me apply a number, and she also bought some GW gold to me. Choose the name, I think a long time, in order to no longer immerse in the lovelorn, so I need to find individuals to love me, want to permanently, I hope that it is no longer the past fireworks fleeting. Finally, I choose love me 9 long time as my name. Brother saw and laughed; he said he hoped I will be happy. He let me go to play, beware of being cheated, do not give other people my phone and QQ.
Yesterday, because I miss you, I go back the game and I want to watch to see. The rohan crone that you give me is also in here. I unexpectedly met you; I think I should stay here because I still think around you. This afternoon, I let you played together me this night, you promised. In the evening I thought you would not have come, but I saw you really come, I really very happy.
Three years ago, after friends introduced, I played the Rappelz game. At that time, I dazed and confused, I like to go my own way, I have a lot of rappelz rupees, but I became the most evil villains in the game. Until I encountered her, I found the meaning of survival.
The friend took me to the game, but she own was leaving the game. A person to game is boring, every day, I only know to upgrade and earn ro zeny. I can not sad dot this mess of feelings and moving. Once, the two boys for me quarreled utterly, until I leaved and tool sad. Later, I found a boy to married, I think perhaps all this to change, and I pray to become a reality, a few days after he disappeared. A person was playing a marriage number, what would it have taken place.