…And now Japan halts F-15 flights…
Xinhua News Agency | November 06, 2007
TOKYO — Japan’s air force has grounded its F– 15 fighter jets following a crash of the same type of aircraft in the United States on Nov. 3, Defense Minister Shigeru Ishiba said.
The Japanese Air Self-Defense Force has suspended flights of F-15 aircraft since Nov. 5, Kyodo News quoted Ishiba as saying. The suspension will last until the cause of the U.S. crash is determined, he said.
The minister also said that F-4 fighters will deal with airspace incursion “for the time being,” since the ASDF has also grounded F-2 fighters in the wake of a recent crash of an ASDF plane of the model at Nagoya.
A Missouri Air National Guard F-15C jet crashed while training in air combat maneuvers over southern Missouri. The pilot ejected and suffered a dislocated shoulder and broken arm. The U.S. Air Force then grounded nearly all its F-15 fighters — excluding those required for critical missions — as preliminary findings showed there might have been structural failure.
It was the second crash of a Missouri Air Guard F-15 this year. In May an F-14D crashed near Vincennes, Ind. Officials traced the cause to a jammed cable. The pilot of that plane also ejected, and escaped with minor injuries.
According to an earlier report from Kyodo, a planned joint drill between the U.S. Air Force and Japan’s Air Self-Defense Force at Komatsu base in Ishikawa Prefecture, in which F-15s from Kadena were to take part, has also been postponed.
– Christian
{ 18 comments… read them below or add one }
[It was the second crash of a Missouri Air Guard F-15 this year. In May an F-14D crashed near Vincennes, Ind. Officials traced the cause to a jammed cable. The pilot of that plane also ejected, and escaped with minor injuries.]
This is an error. The aircraft was a F-15D Eagle.
-Frank Shuler
USA
Thanks for the catch…Can’t trust the Chinese news agency to get it right, I guess…
Good Morning Folks,
Welcome to the origional air frame structual design flaw dicovered in the F-15 in the late 90′s. In short the tail section wants to fall off. The F-15E’s had already gone into production and the AF didn’t want to invest any money in an aircraft designed in the 1970′s so it was let go.
Operational restictions were placed on the F-15 in the late 90′s, thus the embarrassingly poor performance’s against the Indian Su.27′s twice and a chance encounter against the Eurofighters and some fighter jock fun and games over the Atlantic in ’06.
Even thought the AF and Lockheed, they bought out McDonald the origional mfg’s. of the F-15, knew about the risk involved with this problem they gambled on the next generation of fighters comming on line sooner rather then later.
Without 9/11 they may have gotten away with it but with the Homeland Security overflights and the wars in Afghabistan and Iraq missions putting exessive hours on the flawed F-15 airframes it’s only a matter of time before more fall out of the sky and an aircrew is lost.
The AF has a problem with only 187 F-22′s on order to replace 688 F-15′s can a Democratic Congress be talked into buying more $130 million F-22′s to replace the F-15. This flaw will eventually find it’s way into the mainstream press.
Look for lively discussion on this subject.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Byron Skinner:
Boeing “bought out” McDonnell Douglass and the F-15 design in 1997. Curious what structural defects in the F-15 are you directly referring to?
Frank Shuler
USA
Good Morning Frank,
SAT about the Lockheed/Boeing mix up. The design defect is in the aft part of the air frame where the tail fins connect to the fuselage. If it’s a material problem or a structual design failure it still being debated. It was estimated that since it appeared that the F-15′s were good for about 20 years before the airframes via fatigue and other stresses would be come an issue that with the restrictions the F-15 was serviceable with in the operational enviroment before 9/11.
The AF decided to roll the dice and not correct the problem and made permanent the operational restrictions on the F-15′s.
From the accounts of this latest accident it appears that two of the four Missouri ANG pilots decided to break off and do a little dog fighting. The airframe that went down is reported to be 27 years old.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Byron Skinner:
So we
Frank and Bryon, there is a sure test to know if this is a design influenced fatigue problem known for years: there will be an inspection program in place for that area of the airframe. No matter what conspiracy theory you subscribe to, there are safety people in the Air Force and generals who are fighter pilots. If they know about a problem, there will be an inspection program implemented in place to watch for cracks or damage in that region of concern. Cause no one wants to be in a jet when a failure happens.
My guess is that this failure location was either not anticipated or that the rate of degradation leading to failure exceeded the predicted rate of failure and thus wouldn’t have been caught by a directed or general inspection process.
Lest anyone get too far ahead of what actually happened, this could also have been a problem (structural or otherwise) peculiar to just this one A/C or a very small subset of the fleet. That’s one of the things the AF will find out. It may not be fully known (if at all) until the end of the accident investigation and all the reviews what actually happened, but unless things are REALLY bad, expect a return to flight fairly quickly once a course of inspection/action is decided upon.
The flying community has been doing this since the wood, cloth, and wire days – and doing scientifically for about half that time. No Probs Mon!
I know that this is controversial,but we are getting dangerously close to where the Former Soviet Union was before their collapse,old weapons falling apart & unable to afford new weapons.Among other things,the dollar is falling too low.Pretty soon,we’ll need wheelbarrows to carry our money just to go grocery shopping,& nobody can be so blind as to not see this coming.Pretty soon,you need a wheelbarrow of money to go to Olive Garden.Giselle Bundchen is wise to demand to be payed in Euros,if I could do it,I’d demand the same thing.Hello Soviet Union,we’re coming to join you.
Israeli F-15s grounded as well… news on flightglobal.com
I love this, the world is going to end because the F-15 is grounded. LOL ya right, ill still take my dollar.
What Byron Skinner said doesn’t surprise me, from my own service with the military. “CYA and hope nobody notices” is the rule in far too many cases, unfortunately. If it is true, then I hope somebody pays for this with their career.
I’m confused about something re the comments (and picture) on the earlier story — Andy noted that Eagle pilots like to rotate hard off the runway into a steep climb like in the picture, and it seems to make sense for intercept missions, as you have to get altitude in a hurry.
I’ve seen it myself, and it’s pretty impressive, but, if what Byron’s posting is true (i.e., the F-15 has structural problems with the empennage), it would seem that rotating that hard with a full load, with full thrust, at sea level would stress the tail something fierce. Or maybe the landing gear takes the load.
Anybody know, either way?
Given the combat record of the F15, why can’t it be upgraded to have thrust vectoring,if not just to keep those MIGs trembling. I believe the Isrealies will love this.
I doubt there’s anything sinister about the F-15 airframe problems. It’s an old airplane, and things don’t always wear out the way that the designers expected. When you discover you have a problem, you have to make a call on how urgent it is and whether the solution is worth the price tag. Sounds like the Air Force decided that they could contain the problem for the remaining life of the airframe by putting constraints on normal maneuvering, and it sounds like they might have miscalculated. I don’t think heads will roll over this – some problems are so big that you just have to shrug your shoulders and work on a solution.
What did Donald Rumsfeld say,”you don’t go to war with the forces you wish you had,you go to war with the forces you have already?” If ALL F-15s are grounded,& that includes now the F-15E Strike Eagles,then add to that,grounding ALL F-16s,What does that give us TODAY,not the dreamland tomorrow,to fight & protect our forces with.
I still believe that Iran,Turkey,Russia,China,Pakistan,& India will unite in a “Gog & Magog/Kings of the East” alliance & I don’t see any of our “promised” new weapons coming on line to counter it.So tell me,all F-15A/B/C/D/Es grounded & all F-16s possibly grounded,what do we have left? How many F-22s do we have on hand……NOW,NOT TOMORROW?
Good Evening Folks,
Some real good comments on this. I’m of the opinion that considering the time of the late 80′s and early 90′s the AF made the right dicisions regarding the F-15 fleet. Let us not forget that they were facing declining budgets, the Soviets were gone, the public was EXPECTING a PEACE DIVIDEND, BRAC and an administration who never really understood the military.
If the AF wounld have gone for the fix on the F-15 it would have taken nearly all of it’s procurement budgets for years and the airframe was at that time approaching 20 years old and the F-22 was suspose to be only a few years away. At the time the risks seemed manageable.
Now in late 07 things are different. The airframes are comming on 30-40 years and the rate of buys on the F-22 will not replace the F-15 fleet. The only workable solution is to survey all 688 F-15′s the U.S. has and advise other countries to do like wise. Those that show themselves to be canidates for failure obviously are the most at risk need to be scrapped. Of the remaining aircraft determine the number of hours and years on the airframe and based on that estlabish operational restrictions bases on that data.
The obvious problem here is that the AF will need far fewer aircrews and ground personal trained for the F-15. Many good people in mid career will have to leave the service. I guess not unlike a stable of the best helicopter pilots in the world that the Army RIFED in the 70′s, that was a real waste of manpower and money.
Let’s face it the role of air superiorty fighter for the F-15 is over but the airframe could do yoman service in it’s air support role that will put less stress on the airplane.
Regular inspections and careful maintence along with operational limits might keep enough F-15′s in the sky till a more lasting solution can be found.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
“I still believe that Iran,Turkey,Russia,China,Pakistan,& India will unite in a “Gog & Magog/Kings of the East” alliance ”
Uh- doubtful. Pakistan and India can’t unite over cricket matches, let alone anything else.
We either have to rewing the fleet- ala A-10C or retire then- no real choice we have to fix the best ones/scrap the rest.