Is this for real?
From the UK Daily Mail
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.
At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world’s only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.
That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk — a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.
The Americans had no idea China’s fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
One Nato figure said the effect was “as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik” — a reference to the Soviet Union’s first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.
According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.
It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was “shadowing” the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.
Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its “backyard.“
This sounds like a a similar incident that occured last year, where another Chinese popped up a little too close for comfort next to the Kitty Hawk.
What gives? I mean, Pentagon chief Gates was just over in China making nicey nice with is Sino counterparts. Why the shadow puppetry which is certainly going to give the US Navy a serious case of the jitters? I can’t find much more on this story, and the Daily Mail is surely not the most credible source…What do you dear readers make of this?
(Gouge: CM)
– Christian
{ 66 comments… read them below or add one }
Sounds to me like we need to start paying more attention to ASW then we have been. With the S-3′s retired, and most of the towed sonars in storage, it our capability is significantly reduced. if this has happened twice, it says the Chinese sub force has reached a level where they can repeat the trick.
In order to counter the chinese threat The US needs to employ a web of drones That act as sensors and covers a circular perimeter while moving with the task force. The drones would have to be highly mobile at the same time refueling them might be problematic but do-able unless a system was developed that the drones used the sea water the motion of sea water or surfaced to use the sun as a viable energy source. Their would be constant comunication between the drones and the carrier group. Also trained animals could be used where sensors were attached to them to accompany the perimeter of a battle group. Or a network of Sensors could be placed in strategic locations underwater called aqualites which would act in principle like satelites these would be able to pick up movement and locations of all underwater threats.
It was known to the world that this War Game was being held at this location and around that time. Any Navy with decent sub can hide under a deep water with minimum power with very little risk of detection and then pop up when the fleet is above you. In real battle, this will be near impossible.
“Similar incident” … same carrier, same story, same details … are you sure this isn’t just another report of the SAME incident?
“‘Similar incident’ … same carrier, same story, same details … are you sure this isn’t just another report of the SAME incident?”
My thought exactly. I looked very carefully and could find any suggestion of when this occured in the article. Maybe they’re just catching up with the news.
its the very same incident from a year ago just recycled it would seem according to various other informed website forums. Shoddy journalism nothing more.
For those who have served, I’m sure you’ve experienced the public media’s ability (or lack thereof) to accurately cover internal/operational military events.
A fellow Academy grad was *on watch* on a destroyer in the Kitty Hawk strike group last year *during* this event …
That said, I agree with Pedestrian … it’s just good to take media reports with a grain of salt.
FWIW the Kitty Hawk is at sea in the area now.
USS KITTY HAWK (CV 63), at sea
MichaelB,
I could not agree with you more on the degradation of our ASW resources in the Navy. And these days carriers deploy with half the number of surface ships than they did back in the Cold War era. Diesel electrics are the most quiet subs around and it wouldn’t be a stretch for something like this to happen.
Wanderingshadow, your ideas are fantasy. We have towed array sonars on surface ships to detect these threats, we just don’t have enough to provide the most effective coverage. Space based sensors are usless when trying to detector something moving through the water. And it would be impossible to recover a live animal while moving around with the rest of the battle group.
DC2
Just a thought guys, even if they knew the sub was there, what would be gained by pinging them?
You are all assuming the problem is real. You would have to be a captain (or sonarman) of one of those ships to know if that is true.
On the other side of it, due to the fact it seems like a lot of sonar use drives the whales nuts, I wonder in a time of peace like this if they have curtailed the use of sonar…..
And on the crazy side, it is not that hard to damage and possible sink a carrier, the problem is when its eleven brothers show up, pissed off…..
Maybe the next time the Chinese pull this stunt, the US should rough them up with a couple of destroyers. Most subs are barges on the surface a little close in escort out of the area might get their attention. If they submerge, ping the crap out of them. Let them whine about it later.
Pedestrian,
I don’t know much, as you can tell. Noah’s a lot smarter than me.
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Ultimate website and ultimate post muhaaaaaawwwww but why i dont find you before seems you never post your stories in http://www.laadi.com actuly indians like laadi.com and they used to search for good stories there. i will tell all my friend about your website.
@Pedestrian – Give it a rest with the whole ‘PLA agents are watching us’ spiel, they sure as hell have better ways of getting their info than by snooping on this site.
This story smells;
First it is likely a repeat.
Second, If you have an advantage, the very last thing you want to do is let the other side know. Better to keep your mouth shut and let them think they are smarter than you.
More likely: the sub had a problem and had to surface, or the Hawk’s ASW group held them down till they had to surface or the Hawk demanded they surface and identify themselves IAW International law.
In any event, the on site reporter didn’t get the correct story and the battlegroup CO won’t discuss if he doesn’t have to.
Does anybody know if the enviromentalists always protesting our navy using & training with sonar(I’m not exactly sure which specific type) could be playing into this embarrassment.I remember last time that it was supposed to be a Chinese nuclear submarine trailing the Kitty Hawk,now its a Song Diesel Submarine popping up in the middle of an exercise.I’m not touting any Chinese or Russian technology,I’m totally criticizing the Navy allowing politics to interfere with its safety(like in the sonar controversy &,I don’t know if its applicable,but I want to bring it up anyway,the closing,under pressure from environmentalists,of the Vieques Bombing Range).I’m blaming the navy having its hands tied for this one.
THIS IS A RECYCLED STORY. NO, IT DID NOT HAPPEN AGAIN. THIS IS MERELY A RE-REPORTING OF OLD NEWS.
LET’S USE SOME COMMON SENSE HERE. THERE IS ONLY ONE NEWS OUTLET REPORTING THIS AND IT MATCHES ALL THE FACTS OF THE INCIDENT THAT HAPPENED ONE YEAR AGO.
Sorry for the caps, but Jesus tapdancing Christ, how are people fooled so easily by the daily mail’s shoddy journalism?
Hey,maybe this “second” reporting can be used to allow the navy to use & train with equipment criticized by environmentalists for “killing” whales & dolphins(although our allies,the Japanese do a lot better job of that “without” sonar).[Repeated] Negative stories like this does not always have to be viewed as a slap in the face of our navy & its abilities,it can be used to ask for “more funds” from congress for better ASW defense.Who knows “who” planted this “repeated” story?
A bit fanciful I know, but its rather interesting to thing about what might be gained by detecting and tracking the sub and not doing or saying anything about it until it surfaced…
What if the Chinese knew the Kitty Hawk’s approximate area of exercise ahead of time and just parked a bunch of submarines in advantageous locations to wait for the US fleet?
Like I said before,maybe these articles are being planted so that the environmental groups can be overridden & the navy can continue sonar training.
MichaelB or DC2 what ever your name is you do not know what your talking about stay in your supply room counting your towed array sonars which are ancient. As far as using animals as impossible what about dolphins or sharks as an example. In reference to satelites I said you could use cheap underwater sensors placed strategically in a web of varying depths or below crush-hull depth that detect incoming subs at the same time communicate with one another they would be called aqualites the name is self-explainatory. Using drones to set up a perimeter we currently do this with air vehicles we can employ the same principle underwater and probably give them nuclear power. We have 12 aircraft carriers in total add 13 nuclear powered drones armed x by 12 carrier battle groups you get 156 smart drones. You call this phantasy. This is feasible I wouldn’t discuss phantasy on the net, people like you wouldn’t be able to keep up. You know what’s funny I know your joking and you wanted a response so I gave you one.
Wanderingshadow,
So you offer using nuclear powered submerged “drones” to ringed an aircraft carrier to protect it? That’s just plain ignorant and anybody that has been in the Navy, let alone nuclear power school, would agree.
We currently use animals to protect our Naval ports from swimmer infiltration. They simply would not work out in the open seas as a means of detecting anything. How would they be recovered in a high sea state? Oh right, just let them swim around indefinitely.
And we once had a ring of sensors suspended on the ocean floor used to detect submerged threats. It was called SOSUS and was shut down shortly after the end of the Cold War.
Given the fact that we no longer have any sort of carrier borne ASW fixed wing platform, we have fewer ships protecting our carriers, and the ships that do protect them are not dedicated ASW platforms; I would say these are the reasons that a Chinese diesel electric sub could surface next to an aircraft carrier.
I was a sailor and it is obvious you have never stepped foot on a boat, so please don’t debate whether your ideas are fantasy or not.
Whether this story has been regurgitated or happened again, I believe it is quite possible for a diesel electric sub (the most quiet of subs in any fleet) is perfectly capable of getting close to a carrier. That is why we are spending so much money focusing on littoral ASW warfare, this is the hunting grounds of a diesel electric sub. Their endurance is very short.
Your 100 percent correct I’ve never stepped in a boat or been in the Navy but sometimes in life it takes some outside the box to see in the box and your obviously in the box. There may be engineering challenges or you might not see it as practical but when experts like you said it would be impossible to create a missile defense system, or hit a bullet with a bullet. Now it’s possible. Anything and everything is possible Just take a look at yourself. I never new an idea to be ignorant. Obviously your trying to extract imformation from me to see if I know about any highly classified programs which I don’t know about. That is of course a compliment.
I am personally very disappointed that this of all blogs would have so many fall for that Daily Mall crap. I knew it was recycled within seconds.
Mod/editor: PLEASE update your article with something akin to ‘recycled news care of your British liberal’.
Thanks!
DC2 and Wanderingshadow,
You two might benefit from a little time with google and keyword: Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (IUSS).
Then, take a lok at: http://www.cus.navy.mil/index.htm
Enjoy, shipmates.
DC2
Correct me if I’m wrong,but I think that not only have we retired the Spruance Destroyers,but we have systematically scrapped &/or sunk almost every single one so that it is impossible to bring them out of retirement,even if we wanted to.As far as the frigates you mentioned,I think that we gave them all away to Turkey for sure & I think also to Taiwan.The navy says that Canada & the Coast Guard can make up for the ships we lost though(of course,I think that is total BS).How can almost everybody be so blind as to how defenceless we have made our navy? I honestly don’t trust the people who want to criticise the messenger(in this case the Daily Mail,which if I remember correctly,from living in Berlin & reading it almost daily there,is a British CONSERVATIVE newspaper like the Daily Telegraph).
I would truly love to hear from someone who actually defends the retiring & scrapping of the Spruance(“our government did promise us new Zumwalt Destroyers & anybody that calls them liars is being unpatriotic,is a traitor,& needs to leave for Canada immediately until it is absorbed into NAFTA & then they need to go to Sweden!!!!”) & getting rid of the Short Oliver Hazard Perry frigates also(“but we don’t need them anymore.We’re at peace,nobody else has a strong navy to threaten us,& diesel submarines are so inferior.” Oh really?).
I understand that we have fixed underwater surveillance systems in place currently that provide an overall “picture” of what lies beneath the ocean. However, our ability to defend the most recognizable American power projection ability (the aircraft carrier) has been extremely compromised for the past 16 years.
Roy is correct, we are making very capable ships into razor blades so that Congress does not sell them to Taiwan or any other country. All because they do not haver VLS (vertical launch) capability and therefore can’t help in the war on terror.
Sensors placed on the ocean floor are well and good for determining when a sub leaves port or crosses a certain line. But having ships with passive ASW capabilities, or planes/helicopters dropping sonobouys/MAD detectors/dipping sonars is the tried and true way of detecting a submerged threat approaching a flat top.
Again, this should be a wakeup call just as much as an F-15 desintigrating in flight should be for the Air Force. There is something exremely lacking in our armed forces right now, no matter how hard the men/women in uniform try to make sure it doesn’t happen. Our leaders are letting us down.
Remember, we didn’t care about mine detection until the Samuel B Roberts was almost broke in half. We didn’t care about protection from sea skimming missles until the Falklands War. And we will not care about ASW until one of our carriers is crippled in a first strike. China, Iran, Russia, or any other country (even Venezuela) will be able to accomplish this in the very near future unless we do something about it.
DC2
For non-UK readers, the Daily Mail is about as accurate as Weekly World News. You’ll probably find that article was sandwiched between an article on how to cure world hunger with primrose oil and a survey showing that increased sunspot activity is in fact the result of illegal immigrant labour.
Iam not a sailor, don’t know all that much about ASW capabilities and such. Wasn’t the P-3 Orion a sub-hunter? How could a Chink sub get so close to the Kitty Hawk? Its very disturbing to someone like me, who thinks this is near impossible to do. Where was our submarines? We have nuclear attack subs to protect the fleet, so how could this happen? To any Sailor here, wat does the Seawolf do? Its a sub-hunter, true? How could this happen?
Yeah right, the Daily Mail is as accurate as a blind sniper, unless ofcourse it’s making pro-US and pro-Israel comments in which case it’s the world of God !
Lets just face the fact, the Chinese pulled one up on you dumm ugly Yanks and you don’t like it one bit as it’s one more sign that the US is on the way down and China on the rise…and by default good bye West and hello East!
DC2 what is the Purpose of Darpa They have a web site. There purpose is to bring cuting edge or phantasy into reality or see if its practical. A shark with a primitive brain can be implanted with electrodes that can control basic primitive stimuli. Sharks can be manipulated and controlled. Drones in water would be much easier to operate than in the air. Do you play video games Its usually a program written for that reality the same thing can be applied in priciple in the real world but would be a little more complicated. Being that it submerged you would not have to worry about a number of thing like balance for example. Look a the Big dog The Pack Mule. You just know what your thought your not capable of thinking beyond what they teach you in Navy school. What did you score on your ASVAB what is your Rank. The US government just tells you what they want to know or lets you see what they want you to see. If they didn’t they would not be able to protect you. AS for as drones go with the advancements were making in computer chips and qauntum computers for that fact. You have programs that have face recognition. What about the urban race challenge that was just recently held. If you could control drones in Iraq like the predator from half way across the world you could do the same from an aircraft carrier creating a 360 degree underwater perimeter that extends well beyond the range of the aircraft carriers low frequency sonar. Giving the aircraft carrier a heads up of what’s out there or sort of like a hand reaching out so 6000 people are protected. Wether you make them autonomus is up to you. Wether they loiter is up to you. Wether there armed is up to you.
Dc2 The fact that you have pissed on more sea water than I ever will, tells me one thing. You had to much to drink and you should slow down. One glass of red when preferably before a meal not only enhances the taste of what your eating but is also high in antioxidants and actually increases your life expectancy.
Well, I’m glad to see that there are a couple of old salts around here that have a clue. Too bad it’s the ID-10-Tango politicians and pus-nutted Commodores & Admirals making the purchase decisions. I think they need some good old pre-Clinton “calibration”. wall to wall counselling wouldn’t be too out of order….
wanderingshadow –not everything is like you see on Futureweapons or the Military/Discovery channel. Super high tech is nice, but not always practical. And in this day and age, we need a lot more practical than fanciful. DARPA is great for future Star Trek crap, but at the deckplate level, you want something that works when the excrement hits the fan. Mr. Murphy can be very unforgiving, and Murphy loves new fancy toys.
And trust me –as an ex-nuke, I can tell you, ain’t no way they’d ever put a nuclear reactor on a drone. Never in a million years. Let the DARPA boys with their slide rules get cold fusion working, then maybe you could put that on a drone. But a real-world nuclear reactor takes a lot of highly trained people to keep running safely. And safe operation is the key word and tricky phrase when it comes to nuclear reactors.
…While I am not surprised at the possibility of this sub incident, I am disgusted. Those same O-gangers and politicos (many blood sucking creatures they are) should get a clue and realize that we need to plan ahead, and not just for electromagnet catapults that don’t yet even work. The ChiComs are prepping for the next tussle, and it’ll be in their back yard, at a time and place of their choosing. Their supply lines are short, and we’ll be fighting on their prepared ground. Didn’t Sun Tzu have something to say about that???
Get a clue!!!
I wish the military as a whole would get a clue and stop wasting my (our) tax dollars on super-whammydyne whiz-bang high tech flimsy garbage and make some stuff that works. Cheaper and less super-high tech can work, as the Chinese just proved. Diesel electric boats will make our lives miserable if we don’t prep up and get ready to fight them. In their optimum environment, or if they have a good skipper, they can be downright dangerous.
So to the Admirals: Just because some 688 aren’t VLS capable, doesn’t make them useful. Heck, I’d bet that the CBGs are missing some of those old first-flight 688s right about now. Virginia and Seawolf are theoretically great boats (never went to sea on one), but the old 688 boats weren’t that shabby. And I’d bet it takes a lot less money to keep them fuelled than it does to create a new class of boats from scratch.
Beyond that, not everything is about the GWOT, as”wonderfully managed” as that has been. The Navy and the Air Force especially should be focusing on mainaining the air and naval superiority we used to have. Power projection. Sustained operations. Like has been said, the ASW side has been severely neglected. IIRC, so has our sealift and airlift, plus our airborne tanking capabilities. What we have is getting old & older, yet there is little realistically on the drawing boards.
I’m just a simple blueshirt, so maybe I’m not smart enough to figure out why they can’t re-tool some of the stuff out there that works. Reverse engineer the bloody things if you need to: A-10s, P-3s, S-3s, some of the old Figs and Cans, B-52s, KC-135s, AC-130s, etc. All might be old designs, but if we are still using and abusing them, then crank up the old production lines and start making some new ones that haven’t been beat to crap already.
Of course, as long as I’m asking for the moon, they could also try and finally get a reliable replacement with some decent knock-down power for the M-16 while they are at it.
This next 10 years is going to be very interesting. :(
Chief B I would have to disagree. Look at the engadget website where they are now able to control prosthetic limbs directly from the brain. As far as everything else the technologies exist it’s just a question of merging them. Underwater drones would be more practical and cost effective, sonar that could not see over an obstruction or mountain, drones would make that possible. Drones can be fitted with not just sonar but other devices that can pick up submarines, I’m not going to get into it. And most important they would be expendable. nuclear propulsion would be a plus because of speed and endurance and no enviromental concerns. Even though one could be made by using hydrogen and extracting it from the water. This is not mad scientist stuff all technologies exist it’s just a matter of merging them and tweaking them.
I found a very interesting story along these lines: http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Defense_Focus_A-sub_passions_–_Part_2_999.html
Some of the more noteable quotes:
“The Moscow newspaper Kommersant on Sept. 12 reported that Russia was developing a new so-called Project 20120 submarine that may have followed German and Swedish designs and further developed them in creating a new diesel-electric drive with hydrogen fuel cells that would allow diesel-powered subs to stay submerged while recharging their batteries.”
– One of the diesel boats’ greatest downfalls is when they have to snorkle to recharge their batteries. If they can recahrge at depth, then it seems very likely that a boat could sit practically noiseless for a very long period of time. This could be bad juju, especially if they convinced a CBG to head to a prearranged engagement zone. Ambushes can happen in the ocean — not just on land.
“In the long run, it makes great sense for Congress and future U.S. administrations to rebuild America’s domestic industrial capacity to construct non-nuclear submarines powered by the new diesel-electric technology with hydrogen fuel cells. After all, the Bush administration is already energetically promoting hydrogen propulsion for automobiles as the eventual successor to gasoline-powered cars…
Buying German Dolphins and French Scorpions off the shelf would boost relations with both countries while guaranteeing subs of excellent proven reliability for U.S. war fighters.
And such a policy wouldn’t damage the U.S domestic military-industrial base at all as no such capability as yet exists in American shipyards. On the contrary, the purchases would act as a spur to develop such a capacity as quickly a possible.”
–That actually makes sense. Buy a relatively cheap batch of boats, with no major R&D cost. Plus it would definitely get Electric Boat and the other shipyards moving. As much as I like nuke-boats, I can certainly see the advantages of having both SSNs and SSKs or SSIs in the inventory.
Type 209 U-boats were sold for $285 million each according to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine –that’s not too much in the grand scheme of things. Especially compared to the Viginia Class: Average unit cost (TY$) $2110M according to http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ssn-774-specs.htm
So if we bought SSKs at $300M each (rounded up for extra electronics/sonar, etc), we could get 7 Type 209 SSKs for the price of 1 SSN 774.
It would seem that the USN could get a whole lot more boats in the water if they would let the Hyman Rickover syndrome fade and bring in some SSKs and SSIs. More boats in the water means more force projection, in addition to better rotations for the over-deployed crews.
Sounds win-win to me.
Nik
I just said that the daily mail was conservative(versus the Sun),I didn’t say it was above reproach or sensationalist journalism(& I do miss the page 3 girl,or is that another page & another newspaper? Isn’t there a Daily Express which is just like the Mail? Also,at least the Telegraph is respectable isn’t it?).
Sorry, but I have to laugh at some of these comments:
“Underwater drones would be more practical and cost effective, sonar that could not see over an obstruction or mountain, drones would make that possible. Drones can be fitted with not just sonar but other devices that can pick up submarines, I’m not going to get into it. ”
You’ve obviously never stepped foot on a boat have you? Let alone listened to sonar/looked at a waterfall display, right? You are trying to talk about something that you have zero experience with. I suggest you drop it before your ignorance speaks louder than it already is. The propeller heads have been working on stuff like this for years, but passive sonar is and will be the sensor of choice. It’s how the game is played in the real world. Active sensors broadcast your position more than they illuminate the target.
Now, I’m not against UAVs for ASW work. It could grant you a lot more eyeballs in the sky, looking down for periscopes and wakes. Give them a sonobouy capacity and maybe an ADCAP or two, and they’d be actually useful and dangerous eyes in the sky.
But that’s real-world, not fanciful future-tech. And certainly not frikken sharks with frikken laser beams on their heads.
“And most important they would be expendable. nuclear propulsion would be a plus because of speed and endurance and no enviromental concerns. ”
–So you suggest putting a NUCLEAR reactor on a disposable, throw away vehicle?!?!? Are you insane?!?!? Do you honestly think that a reactor is just a stand alone piece of equipment? That you can just shut if off like your Playstation? A proper reactor requires a LOT of highly trained people to keep it operating safely. It took me almost 2 years to graduate through the nuclear power training pipeline –and that was before I ever stepped foot on my first boat. Trust me, ain’t no way a reactor will go on a drone. Not as long as Greenpeace and liberals exist (let alone rational, thinking human beings).
“Even though one could be made by using hydrogen and extracting it from the water. This is not mad scientist stuff all technologies exist it’s just a matter of merging them and tweaking them.”
–Again, you are talking about stuff that is years away from being in the water. Yes, H2O can be broken down into H2 and O2. That’s one of the ways we make breatheable air on a boat. But we called the O2 generator “The Bomb”, for certain obvious reasons. Yes, the H2 should be used constructively, but AFAIK, it’s not something that is in the fleet yet. Keep checking Star Trek though, I’m sure they have it figured out.
In the meantime, you might want to walk away from the subject, ground your head in reality and stop watching Discovery Channel. Reality and super-high-tech rarely ever meet at the same time.
Especially when the Russians, Chinese and others are rapidly building quality SSKs and exporting them around the world.
Oops,I meant to say that audiophiles prefer glass vacuum tubes OVER digital in their high-end stereo equipment.
I’m curious that the Navy should be “surprised” by the Chinese sub. Didn’t they have exercises with a Swedish diesel two years ago? (and supposedly were shaken by its stealthiness).
See:
http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=17621
Weren’t fish already successful in ASW? Doesn’t anyone remember “The Incredible Mr. Limpet”. It must be true – I saw it on TV!
Talk about a wakeup call. The US is still underestimating China, while paying for their military via a HUGE trade deficit.
Wanderingshadow,
I gave you my rank, as well as my rate: Damage Controlman 2nd Class (E-5). My ASVAB score was 99 out of 100. I was in nuclear power school in the Navy (congrats to you EM2(SS) for making it through), but flunked out. EM2 will testify as to how hard it is and the fact that there is at least a 50% dropout rate. This program is what I like to call special forces for geeks.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve smoked plenty of the good stuff since my days on the sea and have had grand ideas just like yours. But honestly, you need to grow up and see the real world. Your ideas are pure science fiction and don’t make sense at all in the real world.
And don’t ever, ever make light of the fact that someone has more sea time in the pisser than you will ever have in your life. That just makes you look like even more of a boot camp, lower than whale shit, to us “old salts”.
I think that I have delivered my message and the people that know what is going on here will and have agreed to what I am saying. Maybe when you have seen the world as we have Wanderingshadow, you will understand what it is all about.
But until you become a big boy and wear big boy pants, keep on dreaming. You would get along great with my son, he thinks he is a rocket scientist too.
DC2
This may sound like a stupid idea,but before SkyCat went bankrupt,they were offering the concept of an Airship(like the Goodyear Blimp) doing ASW duty.It could stay in the air for days or weeks with bunks & living quarters set up for the crew,I guess.I mean,its more than what we have now with the S-3 Viking all of a sudden retired.The airship could be resupplied by the ships in the fleet.Its better than nothing,which is what we have now,nothing.
EM2 as far as puting a reactor in a drone I’m not talking about a traditional reactor. I’m suggesting something a little more advanced that transfer heat directly into electricity that is self containing and requires no maintenance. As far as it being expendable I mean I would prefer to see a nuclear powered autonomous drone destroyed as opposed to a nuclear aircraft carrier with 6000 sailors on board. The problem is I can’t spell out everything I’m not trying to write a novel. The Nautilus first nuclear powered sub which was commissioned in 1954 over 50 years ago. I’m pretty sure we have made great strides in shrinking or for that matter can make great strides. It’s 50 year old technology. We know have alloys composites etc that didn’t exist 50 years ago. We know have theories and different methods of harnessing and transferring energy. I’m just A regular Joe not a Nerd That wants to make sure that no American life is ever compromised. If This Idea as Stupid as it may be may trigger other ideas creating a domino effect that someone or entity with the means or capital creates a better idea which leads To US Naval Dominance for years to come so be it. If not I would just be that someone that didn’t know what he’s talking about. This Idea isn’t new I’m 100 percent it’s been thought of before.
WANDERING SWALLOW WHATEVER YOUR NAME IS DUDE. I THINK WE SHOULD JUST REINVENT THE SONAR. WHAT ABOUT USING NEUTRINOS, LASERS, AMPLIFIED X-RAY DEVICES OR SOMETHING THAT CAN PICK UP A SUBMARINES MAGNETIC SIGANATURE. I MEAN DUDE HAVE SCIENTIST EXHAUSTED ALL OTHER POSSIBLE TYPES OF DETECTION. POSSIBLY ANOTHER DETECTION SYSTEM EXIST THAT CAN COMPLIMENT SONAR.
Wanderingshadow,
You need to go back into your hole.
The Thresher sank in thousands of feet of water, whatever radiation that leaks out is no danger to anyone. The 688 that you refer to is an American class of submarine, The Los Angeles class. Most of these have now been retired due to budgetary concerns.
And subs don’t hide in crevaces, holes, or caves. They might sit on the bottom of the ocean, but the technology is not available to get that tight of a fit.
Like I said before you are just ignorant.
The reason a Chinese sub can get close to our carriers is not because of a lack of technology, it is a lack of capability. The only air asset we have that can protect a carrier from subs are helicopters (H-60s) and they are becoming more multi-role too. The Flight I and II Arleigh Burkes don’t have the capability to hangar helos, let alone store a large amount of weapons.
So get a grip and listen to the people that know.
Leaving the fantasy-boy alone, the real issue here, as DC2 has stated is a lack of real-world ASW capability. This isn’t a problem that requires future-world technology, it requires stuff that USED to be in the inventory. It is within our capabilities, and we USED to be good at it.
It’s been a while since I’ve been to sea, but I know that in the 90s, the 688 fleet was getting cut. Decommed my first boat (SSN 696) around 1996-97.
For the life of me, I can’t understand why we don’t have more boats in the water, and less cans and figs to hunt them. We used to have them, and now they are razor blades. And the new programs the Navy seems to be doing are way too bloody expensive.
Why make a billion dollar ship that a million dollar missile can destroy? Especially when the new ships are so freakin expensive that they can only buy a few of them.
Heck, if a couple of guys in a ratty boat with some C-4 and a will to die for Allah can blow a hole in the side of a multi-million dollar ship and put it out of commission for a while, then I’d think that having MORE ships in the water would be a good thing. Because if $10,000 in C4 and preparation costs can take the Cole out of action for a while, then what happens if we get into a real shooting war? Just losing one boat or one surface ship cuts our capabilities dramatically.
We need more boats, more ships and more aircraft, period. Not all of them need to be JSFs or F-22s, or NSSNs or any of the other overpriced super tech crap. The KISS principle works. For the Admirals and Politicians and purchasing managers, that means: Keep It Simple, Stupid.
The enemy is using that principle. And even if our super-high-tech stuff is 10 times better than theirs, they only have to be lucky once. We have to be lucky 100% of the time.
Are you willing to risk our lives and future on that kind of gamble?
Dc2 That was a mental error when I said submarines could hide within the cavities of the walls. I’m just not use to all this dam typing. Wake up wake up wandering shadow. Get your head out of your sphincter muscle.
Good Afternoon Folks,
All the comments here seem good and I can add only a single point. The two Admirals in the Pacific at the time Fallon (PACOM) and McConell(INTPAC) and CNO Mullen (CNO) seem not to have skated any damage to their careers, since all have been promoted after this event. Don’t we long for the days when a CNO would comitt sucide over the question of an attachment to a decroation?
Any accountability among Naval Officers seems to be a lost tradidion or unless of course it’s an 06 or below, the it’s a different story.
One would think that haveing a Carrier at sea, even just for training, that there would have been at least one SSN down stairs and at least one DD would have it’s ears on not to mention the carriers own airborne ASW platform(s) This clearly wasn’t the case and by the time a ASW presence was made the intruder have left the area.
In short the Chinese arn’t that good but it seems that we are that bad.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
LOL, Surf1. My hat’s off to DC2 and Crusty Old Chief for their original responses –they are what inspired me to hop into this little can of worms….
So today I ran into an interesting article at the Navy Times and it fits into this discussion:
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/11/ap_submarines_071113/
They are approving money for new Virginia class subs to be built. Now I am totally for new nuke boats, but at a whopping $2.5 Billion for each boat, well, that’s a lot of cash for one little boat.
Having spent time at both No Ka Oi (Pearl Harbor) and Portsmouth shipyards, I can totally understand the need to keep this infrastructure in place, and keep it maintained. EB and NN shipyards are incredibly important to our ability to produce quality boats in the future.
The skills that the shipyard workers (the good ones, not the slackers) have is incredible. A national asset, and should definitely be kept running. That is “tribal knowledge” that we can NOT afford to lose. To allow those places to flounder is just asinine at best.
But what bugs me (even as a nuke) is that they are struggling to keep the shipyards open with 1-2 new nuke boats a year. Yes, we need to keep the production lines open and keep on producing new nuke boats. But what about Air Independent Propulsion diesel boats? (SSIs) Or even just normal diesel-electric boats? (SSKs) For each SINGLE Virginia class boat, they could produce 5-7 SSK or SSIs (estimating $300M and $500M each –my numbers could be off, please forgive me if they are).
Let’s look at some of the advanatages:
– More American jobs, if these are produced in-country.
– Keeping and expanding critical infrastructure.
– The O-gangers should love it, because more hulls = more department head, XO and CO billets. ==> More chances for them to actually command a boat of their own.
– It would give us more coverage in the littoral areas where nuke boats aren’t totally needed or the best for the conditions: near Taiwan, the Persian Gulf and (God forbid) even doing homeland/coastal security work. Maybe even drug interdiction….
–By having SSKs and SSIs in our inventory, we could prep our ASW and SSN forces to better thwart the threat.
The only downside about a SSK/SSI from my POV is that the battery is probably a cast iron beyatch to maintain. It might mean a lot more EM billets… and possibly promotion potential…. maybe not so bad… were I still active or drilling….
But if the rest of the world is making a whole LOT of SSks and SSIs, it would make a lot of sense to prepare to counter that particular threat. But that’s just me. I’m sure that the Powers That Be are a whole lot smarter than I am…. [face_rolling_eyes]
Surf1,
I would like to thank the United States Navy for helping me grow a pair and be able to receive this Testicular Award. Like any good red blooded American, I will proudly display this award from the trailer hitch on my truck.
Byron, I served under the man you mentioned committed suiced (Adm. Jeremy Boorda) and he was truly an honorable man. I personally believe that the Navy has a higher standard of accountability than for their officers than any other service. The CO of the USS Cole, even though he was not officially reprimanded, was toast after that incident.
The fact of the matter is every branch of the service has had to make do with less and these wars are taking an even greater toll. It was bad enough when Clinton was president and he decided to overextend the military, what Bush is doing now is just as bad. The Air Force is flying planes too old, the Navy has had to decom good ships and virtually do away with the majority of their ASW capability, the Marines have always been redheaded stepchildren, and the Army is having it’s own issues to deal with.
The F-15, LUH, and this blog are prime examples of where our military finds itself today.
I agree with EM2, KISS.
Not to make a big deal over nothing,but two examples of “swallowing a camel & straining on a gnat” is the former CNO in the middle of the 80′s(who was also caught at Tailhook in 91 or 92 I think) who was more concerned about sailors being clean shaven instead of being allowed to have beards & good ole’ Jim Webb when he became Secretary of the Navy & he felt that the first most important decision he had to make was that Napoleon McCallum couldn’t play for the Raiders while he was in the navy.I’m sure people have opinions about both subjects,but this former soldier wonders if there were not any more pressing matters than if a sailor plays pro ball on his off duty time & whether a sailor looks better with or without a beard.I know there are people here who feel like the F/A-18 Super Hornet is the best jet right now for the navy,but I was upset that the F-14 was the only jet that could fire the AIM-54 air-to-air missile & both were retired,but there was the AIM-155 Advanced Air-to-Air Missile that was lighter than the Phoenix & could be fired by the Super Hornet & other fighters,but it was canceled.
Its like some devious mind is out to neuter our navy’s ability to defend itself.Now I read that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that the navy has to make its sonar safer for whales & dolphins.I think that our country has gone nuts.
Some last thoughts before this article rolls off:
– Beards were sixed on Adm Watkins’ watch not on Adm Boorda’s. But you’re only off by a decade; not bad for the sister service that never learned to use a simple blousing cord. :) Moreover, even the most hoary traditions must bow to operational necessity. Beards, goatees, and Elvisite sideburns interfere with gas masks and OBAs/SCBAs. Some of us stood in the head with the CMAA until midnight of the last day we were permitted beards, refusing to shave until the last moment.
– Nuclear power has the great potential to solve ALL of our power requirements essentially forever. Our TLD-wearing geekazoids in the reactor compartments of ships and subs have a half-century long record to prove its safety, reliability, and sustainability.
Nuclear power also has the great potential to spawn some rather nasty stuff like plutonium that can essentially solve all the apocalyptic requirements of terrorists, al-Mahdi jerkwads, and schizoid geeks who made it just far enough through nuclear power school to be dangerous to everyone.
Nuclear power is the ultimate hobgoblin of Luddites, wheat-germers, and all the rest who read Mother Earth News or who believe in the divinity of Al Gore. Personally, I blame Uncle Sugar for 60 years of permitting the Left to control what passes for information about anything nuclear.
Nuclear power, to my mind, falls under the broad category of Things Forbidden to Stupid People. Is there any wonder why the Soviets lost so many subs to reactor incidents or that Chernobly went boom? Bad designs built by incompetents and run by politicians and farmers. Its the same reason why the Lada, Trabant, and Zil never captured a sizeable share of the export market.
Lastly, because a nuclear reactor or even a radioisotope generator (RTG) falls near the top of the Things Forbidden to Stupid People, we need to make a pretty solid swipe at keeping them out of the hands of children and terrorists. Now I’m a pretty ignorant fellow who grew up thinking that red lead primer, asbestos, and MEK were all pretty much benign but I still stand pretty firm on the idea that fissionable, radioactive, or otherwise Fairly Damned Dangerous materials should not be put into anything unmanned. (Unless, of course, the unmanned device is a space probe or a warshot.)
Just my opinion. If you think I’m wrong please let me know. Because if I am, then I’m going to start collecting smoke alarms to build my own RTG. I’m thinking that it might make a good preheater for my hot water heater or at least a way to keep the birdbath from freezing this winter.
Cheers,
Chief B.
BTW, anyone have a spare dosimeter and radiac?
I had to look his name up to be sure,but I thought that it was Frank B. Kelso II who ordered the beards banned.Anyway,I thought that it was strange that the navy retired(& as I’ve other say,turned into razor blades) all of the nuclear-powered cruisers that they had,especially with the oil crisis(as far as prices go) having an impact on the navy being able to deploy & exercise.The retiring of the battleships was also a big disappointment.Being a soldier,& I’m sure I can also speak for the marines,those big guns were a great comfort to us on land.I don’t think that amphibious assaults are completely dead & those guns would have helped a lot in any amphibious landing operation or just the fact that they are there would divert the enemy’s troops to cover the beaches like the Iraqis had to do during Desert Storm.It seems like we have done everything we could to cripple our abilities to defend our ships against submarines & aircraft carrying anti-ship missiles,& we crippled our ability to protect the marines landing on beaches.
So, looks like the Chinese are still our enemy.
Wait till after the olympics. The Olympics are a
huge source of pride for the Chinese, but once they come and go, China isnt going to probably wait too much longer on Taiwan. China, while a huge trading partner, is also taking advantage of that position to build up its military and get in a position to take over taiwan without any interferance from us.
China is militarily our enemy, and needs to be treated as such. Robert Gates is ignorant if he really thinks they arent.
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The Navy is concerned at the cost of building more than one Atomic Sub a year. Since the Japanese Sub building is now out of business why not have them build the hull similar to what the air lines are now doing.If the work designed with the future of the Sub to take on the completion by the U S Engineers, this could be a grate saving.
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