Is this for real?
From the UK Daily Mail
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.
At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world’s only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.
That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk — a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.
The Americans had no idea China’s fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
One Nato figure said the effect was “as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik” — a reference to the Soviet Union’s first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.
According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.
It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was “shadowing” the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.
Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its “backyard.“
This sounds like a a similar incident that occured last year, where another Chinese popped up a little too close for comfort next to the Kitty Hawk.
What gives? I mean, Pentagon chief Gates was just over in China making nicey nice with is Sino counterparts. Why the shadow puppetry which is certainly going to give the US Navy a serious case of the jitters? I can’t find much more on this story, and the Daily Mail is surely not the most credible source…What do you dear readers make of this?
(Gouge: CM)
– Christian
Good Afternoon Folks,
All the comments here seem good and I can add only a single point. The two Admirals in the Pacific at the time Fallon (PACOM) and McConell(INTPAC) and CNO Mullen (CNO) seem not to have skated any damage to their careers, since all have been promoted after this event. Don’t we long for the days when a CNO would comitt sucide over the question of an attachment to a decroation?
Any accountability among Naval Officers seems to be a lost tradidion or unless of course it’s an 06 or below, the it’s a different story.
One would think that haveing a Carrier at sea, even just for training, that there would have been at least one SSN down stairs and at least one DD would have it’s ears on not to mention the carriers own airborne ASW platform(s) This clearly wasn’t the case and by the time a ASW presence was made the intruder have left the area.
In short the Chinese arn’t that good but it seems that we are that bad.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
LOL, Surf1. My hat’s off to DC2 and Crusty Old Chief for their original responses –they are what inspired me to hop into this little can of worms.…
So today I ran into an interesting article at the Navy Times and it fits into this discussion:
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/11/ap_submarines_071113/
They are approving money for new Virginia class subs to be built. Now I am totally for new nuke boats, but at a whopping $2.5 Billion for each boat, well, that’s a lot of cash for one little boat.
Having spent time at both No Ka Oi (Pearl Harbor) and Portsmouth shipyards, I can totally understand the need to keep this infrastructure in place, and keep it maintained. EB and NN shipyards are incredibly important to our ability to produce quality boats in the future.
The skills that the shipyard workers (the good ones, not the slackers) have is incredible. A national asset, and should definitely be kept running. That is “tribal knowledge” that we can NOT afford to lose. To allow those places to flounder is just asinine at best.
But what bugs me (even as a nuke) is that they are struggling to keep the shipyards open with 1–2 new nuke boats a year. Yes, we need to keep the production lines open and keep on producing new nuke boats. But what about Air Independent Propulsion diesel boats? (SSIs) Or even just normal diesel-electric boats? (SSKs) For each SINGLE Virginia class boat, they could produce 5–7 SSK or SSIs (estimating $300M and $500M each –my numbers could be off, please forgive me if they are).
Let’s look at some of the advanatages:
– More American jobs, if these are produced in-country.
– Keeping and expanding critical infrastructure.
– The O-gangers should love it, because more hulls = more department head, XO and CO billets. ==> More chances for them to actually command a boat of their own.
– It would give us more coverage in the littoral areas where nuke boats aren’t totally needed or the best for the conditions: near Taiwan, the Persian Gulf and (God forbid) even doing homeland/coastal security work. Maybe even drug interdiction.…
–By having SSKs and SSIs in our inventory, we could prep our ASW and SSN forces to better thwart the threat.
The only downside about a SSK/SSI from my POV is that the battery is probably a cast iron beyatch to maintain. It might mean a lot more EM billets… and possibly promotion potential.… maybe not so bad… were I still active or drilling.…
But if the rest of the world is making a whole LOT of SSks and SSIs, it would make a lot of sense to prepare to counter that particular threat. But that’s just me. I’m sure that the Powers That Be are a whole lot smarter than I am.… [face_rolling_eyes]
Surf1,
I would like to thank the United States Navy for helping me grow a pair and be able to receive this Testicular Award. Like any good red blooded American, I will proudly display this award from the trailer hitch on my truck.
Byron, I served under the man you mentioned committed suiced (Adm. Jeremy Boorda) and he was truly an honorable man. I personally believe that the Navy has a higher standard of accountability than for their officers than any other service. The CO of the USS Cole, even though he was not officially reprimanded, was toast after that incident.
The fact of the matter is every branch of the service has had to make do with less and these wars are taking an even greater toll. It was bad enough when Clinton was president and he decided to overextend the military, what Bush is doing now is just as bad. The Air Force is flying planes too old, the Navy has had to decom good ships and virtually do away with the majority of their ASW capability, the Marines have always been redheaded stepchildren, and the Army is having it’s own issues to deal with.
The F-15, LUH, and this blog are prime examples of where our military finds itself today.
I agree with EM2, KISS.
Not to make a big deal over nothing,but two examples of “swallowing a camel & straining on a gnat” is the former CNO in the middle of the 80’s(who was also caught at Tailhook in 91 or 92 I think) who was more concerned about sailors being clean shaven instead of being allowed to have beards & good ole’ Jim Webb when he became Secretary of the Navy & he felt that the first most important decision he had to make was that Napoleon McCallum couldn’t play for the Raiders while he was in the navy.I’m sure people have opinions about both subjects,but this former soldier wonders if there were not any more pressing matters than if a sailor plays pro ball on his off duty time & whether a sailor looks better with or without a beard.I know there are people here who feel like the F/A-18 Super Hornet is the best jet right now for the navy,but I was upset that the F-14 was the only jet that could fire the AIM-54 air-to-air missile & both were retired,but there was the AIM-155 Advanced Air-to-Air Missile that was lighter than the Phoenix & could be fired by the Super Hornet & other fighters,but it was canceled.
Its like some devious mind is out to neuter our navy’s ability to defend itself.Now I read that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that the navy has to make its sonar safer for whales & dolphins.I think that our country has gone nuts.
Some last thoughts before this article rolls off:
Moreover, even the most hoary traditions must bow to operational necessity. Beards, goatees, and Elvisite sideburns interfere with gas masks and OBAs/SCBAs. Some of us stood in the head with the CMAA until midnight of the last day we were permitted beards, refusing to shave until the last moment.
– Beards were sixed on Adm Watkins’ watch not on Adm Boorda’s. But you’re only off by a decade; not bad for the sister service that never learned to use a simple blousing cord.
– Nuclear power has the great potential to solve ALL of our power requirements essentially forever. Our TLD-wearing geekazoids in the reactor compartments of ships and subs have a half-century long record to prove its safety, reliability, and sustainability.
Nuclear power also has the great potential to spawn some rather nasty stuff like plutonium that can essentially solve all the apocalyptic requirements of terrorists, al-Mahdi jerkwads, and schizoid geeks who made it just far enough through nuclear power school to be dangerous to everyone.
Nuclear power is the ultimate hobgoblin of Luddites, wheat-germers, and all the rest who read Mother Earth News or who believe in the divinity of Al Gore. Personally, I blame Uncle Sugar for 60 years of permitting the Left to control what passes for information about anything nuclear.
Nuclear power, to my mind, falls under the broad category of Things Forbidden to Stupid People. Is there any wonder why the Soviets lost so many subs to reactor incidents or that Chernobly went boom? Bad designs built by incompetents and run by politicians and farmers. Its the same reason why the Lada, Trabant, and Zil never captured a sizeable share of the export market.
Lastly, because a nuclear reactor or even a radioisotope generator (RTG) falls near the top of the Things Forbidden to Stupid People, we need to make a pretty solid swipe at keeping them out of the hands of children and terrorists. Now I’m a pretty ignorant fellow who grew up thinking that red lead primer, asbestos, and MEK were all pretty much benign but I still stand pretty firm on the idea that fissionable, radioactive, or otherwise Fairly Damned Dangerous materials should not be put into anything unmanned. (Unless, of course, the unmanned device is a space probe or a warshot.)
Just my opinion. If you think I’m wrong please let me know. Because if I am, then I’m going to start collecting smoke alarms to build my own RTG. I’m thinking that it might make a good preheater for my hot water heater or at least a way to keep the birdbath from freezing this winter.
Cheers,
Chief B.
BTW, anyone have a spare dosimeter and radiac?
I had to look his name up to be sure,but I thought that it was Frank B. Kelso II who ordered the beards banned.Anyway,I thought that it was strange that the navy retired(& as I’ve other say,turned into razor blades) all of the nuclear-powered cruisers that they had,especially with the oil crisis(as far as prices go) having an impact on the navy being able to deploy & exercise.The retiring of the battleships was also a big disappointment.Being a soldier,& I’m sure I can also speak for the marines,those big guns were a great comfort to us on land.I don’t think that amphibious assaults are completely dead & those guns would have helped a lot in any amphibious landing operation or just the fact that they are there would divert the enemy’s troops to cover the beaches like the Iraqis had to do during Desert Storm.It seems like we have done everything we could to cripple our abilities to defend our ships against submarines & aircraft carrying anti-ship missiles,& we crippled our ability to protect the marines landing on beaches.
So, looks like the Chinese are still our enemy.
Wait till after the olympics. The Olympics are a
huge source of pride for the Chinese, but once they come and go, China isnt going to probably wait too much longer on Taiwan. China, while a huge trading partner, is also taking advantage of that position to build up its military and get in a position to take over taiwan without any interferance from us.
China is militarily our enemy, and needs to be treated as such. Robert Gates is ignorant if he really thinks they arent.
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The Navy is concerned at the cost of building more than one Atomic Sub a year. Since the Japanese Sub building is now out of business why not have them build the hull similar to what the air lines are now doing.If the work designed with the future of the Sub to take on the completion by the U S Engineers, this could be a grate saving.
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