Israel plans to keep its aerial domination of the Middle East intact, and that includes buying Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, accelerating its first deliveries, and deciding whose advanced equipment will be packed into the stealthy strike aircraft.
A senior Israeli air force (IAF) official says those major areas of concern appear to be on the right track because of an “understanding” with the U.S. officials. Washington’s representatives are more ambiguous, saying that there has been no official change to Israel’s F-35 program.
“The plan is that we will get the F-35 as soon as it’s possible,” the senior IAF official says. He says the service will end up with more than 100 F-35s, but he would not confirm the size of the purchase or that Israel is asking that the initial delivery date be accelerated by two years to 2012. The IAF wants the JSF “the minute it is available.”
“Israel has a unique requirement, it doesn’t operate in a coalition, [and it has a] different kind of strategic relationship” with the U.S. than the other F-35 partners,” says Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin’s vice president and general manager for the F-35. However, he says the overseas release of the first export aircraft will be no sooner than 2014.
The purchase, which could include an initial batch of 25 aircraft, is still being negotiated. Brig. Gen. Johanan Locker, head of the IAF’s air division, was in Fort Worth as recently as late November.
Israel’s ambitions to integrate indigenous weaponry also pose some problems for the program. The weapons road map for the Blocks 1–3 F-35 standards has already been drawn up with no Israeli weaponry on the list. Partner nations are currently working on a list for Block 4, but there’s pressure to cut weapons from the process rather than add them. Israel undoubtedly will want its F‑35s to carry the Rafael Python 5 air-to-air missile and possibly its successor, as well as the Rafael Spice family of precision-guided weapons.
Moreover, an influential retired IAF general says total sales will be limited by the JSF’s disadvantages. He points to its overdependence on stealth, a single crewman and what could be proprietary U.S. avionics.
“Eventually somebody will come up with a way to detect it,” he says. “A stealthy configuration also means you can’t carry additional weaponry on the exterior. The weapons system is more important than stealth. Israel will have F-35s, but not as many as we once thought.”
Smaller numbers won’t detract from the aircraft’s deterrence value, he concedes. Even a small fleet will ensure a first-day-of-war, surprise-strike capability. But once daily combat operations escalate, nonstealthy aircraft aided by standoff weapons, escort jammers and information operations will sustain air operations.
Nonetheless, he worries that the JSF will start showing its limitations within five years. Among the drawbacks will be its one-person crew. As a result, “we can’t operate the F-35 by itself,” the retired general says. “We really need two-seaters, with one person concentrating on flying and someone else focused on the strike mission. One man can’t take advantage of all the options,” particularly since JSF capabilities will include jamming, information warfare and network attack.
Inevitably, the avionics will present an area of contention. For example, Israeli aerospace officials say they can offer a tailored, active, electronically scanned array radar for less money than an AESA bought from the U.S. However, many of the electronic warfare and attack techniques are routed through the radar to produce jamming, false-target and other effects at ranges of 125 mi. or more. As a result, integration could be difficult and expensive.
Elta, the electronics division of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), has a version of the AESA, according to the retired general. “We need our own radar that we don’t share with others. We also need our own advanced radar warning and active jamming.” The Israeli AESA was flown last year; but for now it remains a generic system, not tailored to any specific aircraft?although it’s sized for an F-16, an Elta official says. Flight trials are continuing.
For more on Israel’s request for the JSF from our friends at Aviation Week, please visit the full story on Military.com.
– Christian
More weapons for Israel so they can murder more civilians. Repulsive.
> More weapons for Israel so they can murder more civilians. Repulsive.
yes, if we just completely disarmed israel i’m sure peace would break out all over the middle east
(not to mention using an F-35 to kill civilians just isn’t very effective on the cost-benefit scale)
So, Sam you’d like to everyone around them to get the F-35? I think it’s a fantastic balance of terror to have Israel more powerful in Aerospace than it’s neighbors.
Oh and by the way, you’re utterly ignoring the fact that Israel’s opponents murder civillians on a regular basis.
Moron.
Sam, I think that if Israelis were the murdering thugs, you and many of your mindset believe, then there would be no palestinians at all.
“Sam, I think that if Israelis were the murdering thugs, you and many of your mindset believe, then there would be no palestinians at all. “
LOL. Good point.
Sam’s off topic and irrational first comment aside, I think if Israel is going to pay up for them and is willing to absorb the cost of modification(s), then they can ask for whatever they want. It also doesn’t much matter what their opinion is of the air frame. If it’s so bad they can figure out one of these on their own.
The IAF won’t be the first to get the F-35’s, participating nations that have paid will get them long before the IAF.
Recent events have shown the air force they have is getting the job done.
With all the bad press the JSF’s been getting I wonder if Loch-Mart cut a deal with the Israelies. Nothing can polish the JSF’s image more then having the Israelis clamoring for it — “the IAF that just defeated a sophisticated air defense with non-stealth aircraft is still so anxious for the JSF, gee that plane must be special”.
“IAF arrogance is pretty amazing “
You mean their chutzpah? — they invented the word!
The war in Lebanon shattered the myth regarding the quality of the Israeli army. Once feared now more of a joke in the region. But so are most other conscript armies. Hard to be a tough, professional army when most of your privates don’t want to be there in the first place. The Israeli AF is the only thing that keeps that state alive.
J
“Among the drawbacks will be its one-person crew. As a result, ‘we can’t operate the F-35 by itself,’ the retired general says. ‘We really need two-seaters, with one person concentrating on flying and someone else focused on the strike mission. One man can’t take advantage of all the options,’ particularly since JSF capabilities will include jamming, information warfare and network attack.“
So he’s just saying that until Lockheed Martin invents R2D2 to go along with the JSF,Israel needs two man JSFs.Whats the problem with that? Lockheed Martin is going to have to build two seat trainers for the JSF,right?
“Smaller numbers won’t detract from the aircraft’s deterrence value, he concedes. Even a small fleet will ensure a first-day-of-war, surprise-strike capability. But once daily combat operations escalate, nonstealthy aircraft aided by standoff weapons, escort jammers and information operations will sustain air operations.“
This is what a lot of us have been saying about “not putting all of your eggs in one basket.“
Sure,the F-22 relies on stealth,but does it also have thrust-vectoring to out maneuver the opponent if it does get caught(sighted) by the enemy? The line that the F-22 will shot the opponent out of the sky before the enemy sees it is bulls**t.On top of that,its the arrogant bulls**t that will get the F-22 pilot killed because arrogant assholes(cut from the same short-sighted cloth that said that the Iraqis would welcome us with flowers in the streets) told him that he’ll be invincible.Go to this website to see how South African Afrikaners have come up with a plausible way to defeat our stealth(because the Afrikaners are afraid that the U.S. Air Force will bomb them into extinction on behalf of the ANC).
http://www.africancrisis.co.za/Article.php?ID=20669&
Considering the fact that it is the Afrikaner who runs BAE Land Systems South Africa,they might be on to something.
> Lockheed Martin is going to have to build two seat trainers for the JSF,right?
no they don’t and no they aren’t
> Go to this website to see how South African Afrikaners have come up with a plausible way to defeat our stealth
1. he’s a crackpot
2. no it’s not plausible
> (because the Afrikaners are afraid that the U.S. Air Force will bomb them into extinction on behalf of the ANC).
further confirming his crackpottedness
> The war in Lebanon shattered the myth regarding the quality of the Israeli army. Once feared now more of a joke in the region.
nice try troll
irtusk,
I’m glad you found the website that I was talking about,because I can’t pull it up anymore.I wonder if its under “cyber attack?” Hahaha.
Anyway,how do you expect pilots to learn how to handle the JSF without two seat trainers.It seems like common sense.
Also,concerning the war in Lebanon,I don’t believe that the Israelis gave it their best shot.They didn’t show the “out of the box” thinking that they are known for(Personally,I thought that they should have dropped paratroopers way behind enemy lines & then have them meet up with their armored units in the South,squeezing Hezbollah in a vise in the process).They weren’t in it to win it for whatever tactical reason.Maybe they’ll play this losing game with Hezbollah & Hamas next time & then lure them into a trap(read the bible about the battle of Ai in the Book of Joshua to understand what I mean).There is a school of thought that Israel is trying to lure the Palestinians & the rest of the Arabs in a trap by feigning weakness,severe weakness & lack of will at that.
Lockheed doesn’t need to build 2-seat trainers because almost all flight training is done through simulators now.
> Also,concerning the war in Lebanon,I don’t believe that the Israelis gave it their best shot.
i disagree with this too
Israel wasn’t feigning weakness it’s just that their (poor) tactics and hezbollah’s tactics and the need to limit civilian casualties limited what they could do
however do not confuse their lack of effective rocket countermeasures with being weak. If someone tried to gather enough forces for a proper invasion they would get squashed flat
More weapons for Israel so they can murder more civilians. Repulsive. –Sam
Great statement Sam. What about blowing up public transportation and shopping malls is that not repulsive to you. The IDF goes into areas where attacks are coming from. Not buses and malls. Maybe the local populace could do something for example the Anbar Awakening.
Furthermore if the israelis wanted too they could have cluster and fire bombed the occupied lands, a long time ago. That might be Repulsive and the reason they haven’t done it yet.
Israel is dreaming.
The first foreign country to recieve a F-35 will likely be The UK. because they are the US’s closes ally ans have spent the most out off all the other foreign nations on its R&D.
Israel isn’t even a participating nation.…If they are soo interested in it.…why would they contribute money for the R&D?
F-35B rollout today
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/5387865.html
http://www.fwbusinesspress.com/display.php?id=6817
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2007/1218ae_f35b_rollout.html
http://images.teamjsf.com/main.php?g2_itemId=4024
“Sam, I think that if Israelis were the murdering thugs, you and many of your mindset believe, then there would be no palestinians at all.“
Oh really?
Let’s check the validity of that argument by flipping it:
“Sam, I think that if Nazis were the murdering thugs, you and many of your mindset believe, then there would be no jews at all.“
There’s plenty of jews in the world. Hell, a whole country full of them, so obviously the fact that a belief system hasn’t killed their enemies into extinction doesn’t preclude them from being murderers.
It’s not about simple killing. It’s about humiliation and subjugation. Why kill your enemies quick when you can make them your slaves, as per the torah?
I love their arrogance. They contributed nothing to the development, yet they want first pick. And once they get it, they’ll change it to their own avionics because ours isn’t good enough (trusted, actually).
Oh, and the ‘payment’ money will actually be from the tax-payer subsidized billions of military aid that the congress votes for israel every year, at the prodding of the overwhelming jewish lobby, like AIPAC.
> The Israelis though used electronic countermeasures & had no stealth aircraft.
yes, they exploited a specific weakness which may be fixed and not exist next time
> The idea is to “tag” the stealth aircraft so that radar can pick it up & then fire the missiles.
it’s not practical to shoot up a large enough volume that would actually cause any degradation of the coatings
it would be more cost effective to just saturate the sky with AAA and hope you get lucky
> Ok,that makes me wonder about missiles tied into the pilot’s helmet like what the MiG-29 pilots are supposed to have.I’m talking about missiles that go where the pilot is looking.
helmet cueing merely expands the cone of engagement. if the radar can’t get a lock directly in front, it’s not going to get it to the side either
> does the F-22 have thrust-vectoring maneuvering in addition to stealth?
thrust vectoring (super manoueverability) is one of the key attributes of the F-22 that is always touted
> I also hope it has a 20-30mm cannon & doesn’t solely rely on air-to-air missiles.
you should at least read the wikipedia article on it so you have some idea what you’re talking about
Repulsive? that is wat blowing up innocent civilians, ramming jetliners into buildings, and hacking off the heads of Christians and Jews. The Israeli Army a joke? When they really want, and need to turn up the heat, those rags have no chance. As long as they continue to seek the destruction of Israel, there will be NO peace. Comparing the Israeli’s to a nation of terrorists is laughable. I bet in the end, they will be one of only a handfull of nations that stand with us against the developing Arab-Russian alliance. NATO? Forget it. We are on our own. The UK/US alliance is the only REAL alliance in NATO. A-stan has been a glimpse of wat is to come. 4 members fighting, 4 standidng by watching. DISGRACE.
I thought they had a system to allow weapons to be slung under the wings when you don’t need it to be a super stealth aircraft. Like after you have air supriority.
Don’t feed the trolls. Ron Paul for President, LOL
> F-35B rollout today
Some rollout! They need to send it to the paint shop first!
> I thought they had a system to allow weapons to be slung under the wings when you don’t need it to be a super stealth aircraft. Like after you have air supriority.
Thjat is how it will work, cenobite.
I love their arrogance. They contributed nothing to the development, yet they want first pick. And once they get it, they’ll change it to their own avionics because ours isn’t good enough (trusted, actually).
Oh, and the ‘payment’ money will actually be from the tax-payer subsidized billions of military aid that the congress votes for israel every year, at the prodding of the overwhelming jewish lobby, like AIPAC.
Yep. Business as usual.
Roy, you mean you don’t know the F-22 has thrust vectoring and a gun? Jeez, man, that’s common knowledge. How can you so roundly criticize stealth technology when you don’t even know the basic equipment on the most high-profile stealth aircraft in the world?
The problem with shooting up dust bombs is that you’d need to time it too precisely. How high are the flyers coming in? 10,000 feet? 50,000 feet? 50 feet? You don’t know. From which direction are they coming? Are they going to hit you from the north? The northeast? The west? You don’t know. WHEN are they coming? Now? In 15 minutes? In two hours? Tomorrow? The F-22 can move at such a high speed and at such a high altitude that it can literally drop bombs while still miles away from its target, and the momentum will carry the bombs to their target. So he doesn’t need to be directly overhead–he can be 10 miles away and still hit the target.
You’d have to keep a dust cloud in the air that was 10–15 miles high and completely encircled the prospective target. It would have to stretch out 10–15 miles from your target to prevent the F-22 from simply dropping a bomb at Mach 2 from 70,000 feet. And you’d have to keep a large amount of dust in the air for a long period of time, which will be difficult at higher elevations because the wind is blowing hard up at those heights. So… it needs work.
Sure,shooting dust & or sand up in the air has as much likelihood of success as playing the slot machines in Vegas or winning the Publishers Clearing House,& it will no doubt leave the people doing it looking foolish…until that lucky strike comes along.
As far as the F-22 having thrust vectoring & yes,even an M61A2 Vulcan 20mm Rotary Cannon(thanks much maligned Wikipedia for the information),I say thank God,goodness,or the deity of your choice.I was afraid that the building of the F-22 was based on the arrogance that stealth was all we needed & we’d shoot the other guy out of the sky(with missiles of course) before he knew what hit him.You know,the attitude that Jeff Goldblum’s character had in the movie “Independence Day” when he told his ex-wife,“Oh we’ll be in & out of there.…”,just like the attitude that a lot of people seem to have or show on these boards concerning the F-22.