The Army has opted to delay testing of new body armor designs that can stop powerful armor piercing bullets and vests that contain flexible plating much like the controversial Dragon Skin armor.
Citing industry requests, the Army’s top gear buyer told Military.com the test firing on so-called “XSAPI” and “FSAPI” armor would be held off until March 2008.
“Some body armor manufacturers told us they needed a little more time to get long-lead materials and to test new designs before they could submit them to us,” said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, head of the Fort Belvoir, Va.-based Program Executive Office Soldier.
Brown said the new armor designs would likely be tested at Aberdeen Test Center, Md., beginning in March and finished up by June. Testing on the new designs was previously set to begin last fall.
Also Read: Army Seeks Body Armor for New Threat.
The Army was pressured into launching a new solicitation for body armor designs after lawmakers held hearings on Capitol Hill to delve into the debate surrounding Dragon Skin, which is made by Fresno, Calif.-based Pinnacle Armor. An NBC News investigative report in May claimed that the flexible Dragon Skin armor was far more protective than the current Interceptor system, which uses two rigid ceramic plates to stop armor-piercing bullets.
The Army came out swinging before the NBC report aired, claiming Dragon Skin had catastrophically failed several make-or-break tests it had conducted — the same kinds of tests used to certify all body armor systems submitted to the Army for fielding.
Also Read: Army Refutes Dragon Skin Claims.
But that didn’t stop some Dragon Skin advocates from claiming the fix was in, prompting a House Armed Services Committee hearing June 6 that pitted Pinnacle chief Murray Neal against the anti-Dragon Skin Army brass.
Nevertheless, the committee’s ranking member, Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.), called for a side-by-side test of Dragon Skin and the Interceptor run by government engineers and overseen by both congressional and Pentagon auditors. That led to the Army’s June 20 request to industry for both flexible armor designs like Dragon Skin — which incorporates a series of interlocking ceramic disks rather than a single rigid plate — and for a so-called “XSAPI” plate which could stop armor piercing rounds the current ESAPI can’t.
Brown said part of the delay in testing comes from industry’s inability to create an XSAPI plate that comes in under the weight limit of about seven pounds for a size “large” plate, about a pound more than the current ESAPI.
“One thing troops in the field have told us is they don’t want any more weight with a new armor system,” Brown said, adding that preliminary submissions for XSAPI have been too heavy.
For his part, Pinnacle’s Neal says he plans to submit Dragon Skin samples for the upcoming test and is glad the Army is finally taking his technology seriously.
“The extensions, as we have been told by several Army personnel, are primarily for the current manufacturers to fix the plates that have been run through preliminary testing and that are not passing with enough percentage to guarantee passing the [final] testing,” Neal said in a email to Military.com, adding he’s only too eager to pit his flexible — otherwise known as “scalar” — system up against any comers.
Another top body armor designer who has a scalar system of his own said he doubts many companies other than Pinnacle will submit a flexible vest. Allan Bain, president of Evolution Armor, said the Army is right to delay the process to make sure any new submissions have realistic chance of success, though his company has declined to participate.
“The Army is looking for a state of the art system, and there is a lot of pressure by Congress to make every effort on a major purchase like this to ensure that the armor purchased is truly the best performed by unbiased testers and evaluators,” Bain said via email. “So they are not rushing it.”
I for one am glad the Army and Marines did not adopt the dragon skin. One reason being with the new threat of new heavy armor piercing bullets, the Dragon skin would all ready be obsolete and a new more heavy vest would have to replace the entire old one. With the USMC MTV and the Army’s IOTV, they can just switch to an improved plate with little weight gain and incredible performance that was demonstrated on a military.com video. IOTV and MTV are very comfortable and have features the dragon skin just does not offer. Army is doing its job.
December 20, 2007
Dear Christian:
I just read your most recent story on the status of the testing on the armor to be used to protect our troops and I am always saddened to learn of the state of influence the manufacturers have over the services and those who are in positions such as Brigadier General Mark Brown, head of the Fort Belvoir, Va.-who is in control of the Army testing of body Armor mandated by Congress. I am a trial lawyer and spent a good part of my career filing Qui Tam lawsuits on behalf of Whistle Blowers against a number of manufacturers which engaged in fraud, waste and abuse in the development and production of systems such as the MX Missile IMU, the B2 Bomber and the Phalanx Close In Weapons System and I became well educated regarding the ability of the manufacturers to control certain parties in the all three branches of the services who are responsible for making procurement decisions. It disgusts me that the tests have been delayed to allow
“Test new designs” ????????
If these companies are still doing R&D, they’re not mature enough to be considered for deployment. Period.
When they’ve got something effective they’ve tested on their own dime, then we’ll consider it. But aggressively using congress to force testing on new designs to be done on the taxpayer’s dime is absurd, and we should not put up with such behavior.
Can you say “scrambling and running scared”?
The question I have is how many “large orders” of the current vest are going to be put in before the test results come out?
And how long will the test take? And how long with the report take to put together?
The wars will probably be over before then.….
@ Steven W, have you forgoten about the IOTV that is better fitting and included the side plates? Or the side plates hanging off of IBAs in every picture you see from over there?
@ Kilborn: How old are those statistics in your second to last paragraph? How much more do you think the dragon skin weighs as compared to the IOTV? Dragon skin could be saving lives, as would being all buttoned up in a bunch of MRAPs, but it’s just not possible nor practicle to outfit the whole Army with what some feel is the best thing out there. I myself have full confidence in the IBA. Remeber the adhesives on the IBA (or lack there of) didn’t fail. The dragon skin couldn’t handle the environments your son will be in, so it isn’t the best for him.
@ Robert S. Kilborne IV
The current vest being used by the military are the Army’s IOTV (improved outer tactical vest) and the USMC MTV (Marine Tactical Vest). Before you make long and ranting comments about old information, make sure you understand the current situation and what the United States military is currently using.
Both of those vest are probably the best in the world at this time. They are more comfortable then the dragon skin, incorporate side protection, are lighter weight, have better weight distribution, have increased back protection and also have a fall away tab. Protection is just one aspect of the vest ie an important one, but dragon skin needs to improve in many aspects.
Hey, Carl and Mike, where are you getting your info on the comfort of the IOTV and the MTV? Everyone I have heard from keeps saying its like sandwiching yourself between two hard plates. You can’t move right because they don’t flex at all, so you wind up with back aches and fatigue. Also, I would like to see a weight comparison between the MULTI hit capable Dragon skin torso wrap, and the comparable hard plate system (hard plates in front, back and on sides). IIRC most of the weight comparisons neglect the additional weight of the side plates on the IOTV while using the heaviest rating for the Dragonskin. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Oh, and how about the guys that still use it? Like “irregular” troops? I don’t see them complaining about the DS armor and going back to the “much better IOTV/MTV” vests. Something smells fishy here.
ANd before anyone claims I am shilling for Pinnacle, I have no affiliation with them at all. In fact I think they could be more forthcoming with the information on why those vests in the army tests failed while the other tests didn’t.
Shitty assault rifles & piss poor body armor for the troops? Oy,this whole mess is just “Shande fur die Goyim.”
@ coolhand77
The weight difference for a 10x12 SOV3000 panel and a ESAPI is about 2lb. Both are multihit capable. So a Dragon Skin with equal coverage is about 4-5lb heavier than an IBA. But in this case the protection offerd by Dragon Skin is nearly the same as by ESAPI. So in this case a multi billion dollar replacement for current BA would be a waste of money. It is not the dumbest step to wait until a real improvement in the BA sector is done before fielding a complete system eg. an improved DS.
I agree with Dave on this. The dragon skin is an awesome concept and was better then the older OTV that was issued, but the current vest now used are lighter, more comfortable, and offer about the same protection as the dragon skin. Better to wait to wait and then field something better. For those that think the current vest is crap are very uninformed.
So let me get the summary straight…
The Army is stalling the tests in order to give current vendors enough time to kludge some competing designs.
Definition of a pioneer: The guy out front with the arrows in his back.
Yes, the delay in testing comes from industry’s inability to create a XSAPI plate that comes in under the weight limit. The weight limit is 6lb for a 10x12 plate. That means that also Pinneacle is over the limit and now has that time to deal with that.
NEW AND IMPROVED BODY ARMOR SHOULD HAVE BEEN TESTED IMMEDIATELY WHEN THE OLD FAILED. APPARENTLY CONGRESS DOESN’T THINK OUR SOLDIERS NEED TO BE PROTECTED JUST LIKE THEY DID WHEN THEY SENT THOSE LOUSY HUMMERS OVER THERE WITH NO ARMOR.
TOO BAD WE CAN’T SEND THOSE FAT CAT POLITICIANS OVER THERE AND THEN WE WOULD SEE THE BEST ARMOR THE WORLD COULD MAKE
Mr. Kilborne, FYI, although DS maybe be prohibited for use, life insurance will still be paid if the unthinkable should happen.….….see the following link
http://insurance.va.gov/sgliSite/SGLI/mythsRumors.htm
I think you hit the nail right on the head in you post. Theoretically in a capitalist system, products should be from both the lowest bidder and also have the highest quality, yeah right.……
Someone also talked about the latest MTV for the Marines. FYI, the plates and the vest tested in the Dateline NBC special were from PPI. They recentely were awarded a large contract with the USMC. And the the plates were from a lot en route to the Marines.
http://www.body-armor.com/home.php
BTW, the round “of a composite” nature used against only DS in the NBC testing was a round with a tungsten carbide penetrator, (level 5 round) my guess is M993.
These are new the types of rounds the army wants to stop.….….….
patriot,
I doubt that these plates were issue. During the show it was said that these were right of the Army’s production line, not the Marines, which would be wrong then. And that PPI made those plates doesn’t mean they are ESAPI. And I’ve never seen a light grey ESAPI…
Well everyone I have just perfected the Whole New MAPA Plates and they work vey well..You guys will love this stuff as it is outer attachment form of Protective plate that can be afixed toany OTV and the one your currently wear. May also save lives
in IED explosions and prevent loss of limbs as well if I can gain assitance from the BIG Body Armor companies now. A face shield can also be improvised for the current PASGT Helemt and be capable of drop down or ratched up like a visor .
Already hold Level IV+ with this system so it works. Like to perfect this to Modular outer strap on system much like Lacrosse protection is.
Uses same padding as NFL footballs for impact resistance in massive impact.
I have Met Murray Personally and he is a Wizard of the Body Armor vests. I stress more on the design of the Shell system than the whole Vest.
Dragon Skin is very safe and works but it is highly Costly and not easy to make either. I stand behind both Actually yes the SOV-3000 and the Interceptor why because tell Murray Chris now has the plates I devised a year ago and they are ten times better than the current SAPIS …hell my plates can be made any size and are sealed . They are virutally indestrucatble. MAPA-Modular Armor Plate Attachment. They can take Ten hits 7.62x39 AP rounds at 20 ft in a 6“x6” section …tested NIJ LevelIV last year on much bigger concept and passed with flying colors.
Hey Robert S. Kilborne IV, if you take the time to look at the DS test against the grenade you will see that it is a blue (training grenade), and someone from Pinnacle admitted (on another thread) that they used a pyrotechnic for the “entertainment value” because it was done for the Discovery channel. Look closely at the original video of the grenade test and you will see the blue grenade is still underneath the vest when they first lift it up. I call this false advertising. I would like to see this test repeated with a “real” grenade.
To Chris, if your plates are so bad ass, are you submitting them for ESAPI or XSAPI testing?
One thing the new iotv is shit. It’s heavier than the old iba. It’s not as flexible, not only in the movement aspect but also there are only two ways to set up your pouches. One in which your mags are to high and the other were they are two low. Not to mention if your a SAW gunner or have to carry rounds for the M203. The wires come loose and the thing falls off. The elastic bands wear out and retain heat. Also because they are not costume made the “side plates” leave the same space the old iba did before they were added. Last but not least it takes to long to put on. For once the old was better but they had to change it. Unlike our weapons which they refuse to change
Dragon skin is too heavy. Ask any soldier who has worn a full IBA w/ ESAPI plates. Then add an additional 20 lbs. Then add all your gear. No thanks. not when the ESAPI works just fine (seen 5 hits). That is not even taking into account Dragon Skins plate migration issue when hit at an oblique angle. It’s not about money. Its about the overall pro’s and cons. To be benefitial to the soldier it has to provide the best protection at a weight that is feasable to carry in combat. DS falls short of that. No matter who they whine to or how many TV shows they go on.
OK everybody here it is I am posting my Test results with a video —on Level III testing for all to see..success and now working towards the highest level of all soon for lightest weight and best X-SAPI system I can build..I did this with our own personal funds no help other than my closest vendors for special materials…and built this myself …it works and stops Level III FMJ .308 rounds .…Success…01/21/2009 CombatBodyArmor Co.
deltaalpha21074 called LS Armor stands for Lorica Segmentata same system used by Roam Legions 3000 years ago
OK everybody here it is I am posting my Test results with a video —on Level III testing for all to see..success and now working towards the highest level of all soon for lightest weight and best X-SAPI system I can build..I did this with our own personal funds no help other than my closest vendors for special materials…and built this myself …it works and stops Level III FMJ .308 rounds .…Success…01/21/2009 CombatBodyArmor Co.
deltaalpha21074 called LS Armor stands for Lorica Segmentata same system used by Roman Legions 3000 years ago.
http://s566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/ctaggart3/?action=view&current=LevelIIIX-SAPITestCombatBodyArmo-7.flv
Post this Christian told everybody I would make it
Why not have a thin sheet of titanium encased in Dragonskin? Think a modernized version of the Classical Greek Hoplite.
All you need to know about bullet proof vests, protective clothing, concealable body armor and tactical body armor.