According to Aviation Week, they just might…
Industry and Pentagon sources say USAF has made little headway on its lingering electronic attack requirements. The service had been pursuing a standoff jammer based on the venerable, and powerful, B-52. But the program cost crept upward around $7 billion, too much in the Pentagons tight budget environment. Lt. Gen. Donald Hoffman, USAFs military deputy for acquisition, acknowledges that some in the Pentagon are pushing the Air Force to buy Growlers designed for Navy requirements. He counters, however, that an EA-18G would not be survivable in the penetrating role as the Air Force transitions from F-15s and F-16s to an all-stealth combat fleet. USAF officials dont like to talk much about it publicly, but they are looking for a jammer that can escort the high-end stealthy fighters if necessary in the future. The Marine Corps, by contrast, is looking ahead to an electronic attack version of the F-35B, which wont be available when existing Navy Prowlers retire in 2012. Hoffman says there is a natural progression to the Joint Strike Fighter as a jammer, but USAF still wants something in the near term.
I really like this idea. The Super Hornet is marginal as a fighter/bomber but it’s rugged airframe and load capacity may prove a formidable replacement for the Prowler. And who needs stealth in an EA aircraft? Isn’t EA the opposite of stealth? Banging trons til you get through…
(Gouge: NC)
– Christian
{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }
“The Super Hornet is marginal as a fighter/bomber but it’s rugged airframe and load capacity may prove a formidable replacement for the Prowler. And who needs stealth in an EA aircraft? Isn’t EA the opposite of stealth? Banging trons til you get through…”
Yeah and I wouldn’t call the B-52 a stealthly platform either. If you need stand-off, an EA-18G could fly outside of an IADS as well as a B-52 could. If the Air Force chooses to wait years and years until something more stealthy (and expensive) actually makes it through pricey development and testing (and schedule slips), it will be placing additional demands on the Navy/USMC Growler fleet in the near future. Therefore, the USAF should buy some extra Growlers for the Navy or just give into the 80% solution and buy their own. I vote for the later.
I meant “I vote for the latter” not “I vote for the later.”
Don’t want to give USAF an excuse to wait for later!
Five of the EA-6B squadrons at Widbey are purple squadrons. The USAF tried to get rid of the EF-111 without having a replacement and got called on it…
Now if it only had some range. What’s it get with it’s ECM pods a hundred miles? Good thing we have all those worn out tankers ’cause we’ll need ‘em.
“USAF officials don
“USAF officials don’t like to talk much about it publicly, but they are looking for a jammer that can escort the high-end stealthy fighters if necessary in the future…”
I think that says everything about the viability of stealth in the near term. 5-10 years and stealth might be neutralized. 5th gen aircraft become 4.5.
I agree with Solomon. Why did the AF need to spend $7+ billion on modifying a huge aircraft like the B52 to escort stealth aircraft on their missions? Didn’t they sell the taxpayers stealth as the be-all end-all of combat aircraft technology?
Ah Yes! I can here it now!
The USAF Academy choir singing “Anchors Away.”
It just makes you want to smile.
p.s. All we need now is to get some “Gold Wings” to teach the “Silver Wings” how to use them.
Big Smile!!!!
The EA-18G Growler always reminds me of a Graham Norton corgi dog joke about Prince Philip shooting his load into the Queen’s hairy gowler.
“The Super Hornet is marginal as a fighter/bomber”
Wah, wah, WHAT!? Bad gouge, sir… do I need to drop the “Super Hornet Schwacks F-22″ jpeg?
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8185/f18fgunf22031pckg6.jpg
(and for the record the Raptor is an awesome jet)
Plus only squares call the EA-18G the Growler, The SH NA’s and JSO’s call it the Shocker!
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7707/attachmentxb5.jpg
I ain’t a fan boy, I just hate bad gouge…
Good Evening Folks,
This would seem to be one of those 3D Missions(Dull, Dirt and Dangerous) that UAV’s would ideal in. Along with the P-3,Maritime Patrols, AWACS and JSTAR missions UAV’s seems to be the ideal platform.
Of course the huge advantage to the UAW is NO POW’s.
“The times, they are a changn’”
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
I disagree.
#1. Stealth and EA are not inconsistent. You would keep your jammers off UNLESS and UNTIL the stealth aircraft being escorted were detected, then you fire it up to defeat the threat, and shut it off again once the threat is defeated, resuming stealth. EA is used as a backup defense when stealth fails. Stealth isn’t perfect, you know.
#2. A B-52 is far, far larger with a far greater payload, so it can hang back and provide EA capability from safety with much more powerful equipment, like an EA AWACS. A Growler’s EA equipment will be limited in size and power such that it would have to accompany stealthy aircraft, revealing their position to the enemy at all times.
So why not wait and get a stealthy EA aircraft that would be capable of escort without blowing the stealth of the aircraft it is escorting.
Stealth is here to stay, even if the utter invincibility of it is reduced to a mere overwhelming advantage. There is no magic counter to stealth. The russians have had over 20 years to counter it and they haven’t.
This is nuts. With jamming you have two options, a single source very powerful (A B-52) or multiple sources of lesser power. Effectiveness on any jamming is subject to the inverse square law and computational power of the jammer.
Creating a specific purpose aircraft is silly. What we should really do is create lightwieght jamming module system with satellite links. Run the show stateside, and use UAV’s to house the local ECM packages.
Kaltes,
The article covered your question. “So why not wait and get a stealthy EA aircraft that would be capable of escort without blowing the stealth of the aircraft it is escorting.”
The Marine Corps, by contrast, is looking ahead to an electronic attack version of the F-35B, which won
Stealth doesn’t really work without jamming support.
The USAF belived it’s own propaganda in the 90s when it killed the Weasel and Raven and fired all the EWOs. That was a mistake of biblical proportions.
Awesome discussion…lots of informed opinions. Unfortunately, I am realizing the military industrial complex runs the show, not military/DOD requirements. Yes, we could do any number of 80% solutions, most of which would work fine for 25 years. But the big boys will wait until they can get a zillion dollar contract for a new platform that will push the mil-industrial complex that much further along. Did I ramble?
See that draggy Growler and I think it needs mucho tankers. It will in no way be able to keep up with an F-22 doing a super-cruise SEAD/DEAD kill. And of course Growler is only an escort jammer not a stand-off. And yes we need SOJ in the form of a B-52 SOJ area blanket.
USAF can’t see till it’s next paycheck anyway, so it’s a dead issue. No bucks, no buck rogers.
Why buy an 80% solution today when you can spend $7 billion for a 80% solution 5 years from now.
“You don’t go to war with what you’d like, to have, but with what you have.” May be true, but it’s time to start spending some dough so we have more next time the waste material his the air diffusion device.
Anyone have the crystal ball to tell us when that will be?
As a current AF EWO, I would love to see us buy some Growlers. The AF will be out of the Prowlers in 4 years, and we’ll need something. I don’t see the B-52 getting the ECM package, so why not the Growler? And as several have alluded to, the “stealth” acft aren’t what they were billed to be.
I don
Personally, I would like to see an EF-15, but that isn’t going to happen. Especially for a short term solution.
While stealth is not fool-proof, it is very effective against modern systems. However, as enemy systems improve, jamming will be required to maintain the benefits provided by stealth. Non-Stealth aircraft will NOT be able to survive against current state of the art and future SAM systems.
“See that draggy Growler and I think it needs mucho tankers”
That draggy Growler is based on aircraft that has the same range as a clean F-15C. By your estimation the only aircraft that can escort the F-22 is a specially modified EF-22. Do you really believe that’s going to happen?
“The AF will be out of the Prowlers in 4 years, and we’ll need something.”
Agreed but the proponents of stealth need to do a little truth in advertising. If it needs EW support so be it, but drop the “INVINCIBLE TO EVERYTHING” routine please.
“Personally, I would like to see an EF-15,…”
That would seem the common sense approach since the production lines are still open and the Navy has clearly demonstrated that this is a rather straight forward engineering challenge. But I refer back to the second line. The Air Force would have to change their marketing campaign to include some savage doses of reality.
Escort jamming is highly overated and rarely utilized. Tactical jammers don’t target terminal threats so why do you need them up with the strike package? When jamming, the jammer is basically saying “Here I am, just follow the electrons and kill me!” What’s needed is a robust stand-off jammer with enough power to stay back outside threat range and with enough loiter time that you don’t need a fleet of dedicated tankers just to keep it airborne: EB-52.
Jim- Your right in that, Non-Stealth aircraft will NOT be able to survive against current state of the art and future SAM systems. Even now the Zenith system is not to be ignored.
Most folk’s seem not to have considered that these SAM systems are now and will be expensive. With the demise of the politburo there don’t seem to be many “Motherlands” handing out the best they can offer to anyone who visits and says death to the Yankee dogs anymore. Now days it takes cash to outfit these freedom loving people.
Current and future SAM’s ‘costing the life savings of most folks’, apiece, are not just going to be lined up ready for action all the way from the railhead/port to the SAM site. These puppy
Did I miss something?
Apparently, just my brain.
The EA-6A program came from the USMC EF-3D VMCJ-1 programs.
The EA-6B grew out of the USN AD-5Q VAW 12 program. They worked well against our USN ship systems and provided valuable training to the weapons operators!
FEWSG came along and trained the USN weapons systems crews in a counter environment.
Real opposition will destroy effective jamming platforms and go back to destroying the incoming bombers! Fighters fighting fighters prove bombers are protected because they diverted the hostile fighters from valuable targets, our bombers!
The USAF insists that detection represents a threat to incoming flights and thus all systems fail and require more $ at WPAFB for R&D! They worry that systems that cannot direct fire or hostile weapons are important threats. For example, the long rang-low frequency air traffic control system radars that are not suitable for passing targets to the weapons direction systems.
The USN preferred individual aircraft protection from hostile weapons guidance systems. This coupled with early warning of threat systems coming up to harm the flights was demonstrated in Viet Nam! Maneuvers are required to stress the bandwidth of hostile weapons control systems. You do not really understand countermeasures programs until you are familiar with the weapons that can harm you! Emotional countermeasures are a great way to spend DOD bucks.
Lindsay
In the EW game, the rule is “he who emits first loses”. Or at least it was the rule during the Cold War. The idea of a stealthy EW platform makes sense if you are intending it to escort other stealthy attack craft. If you escort is not stealthy, then its presence is a dead giveaway that there are other aircraft on the way. Simply going in and emitting all over the place is detectable in itself and is usually to be left (in accordance with my first sentence) to the last minute and for the minimum time necessary.
A non-stealthy Growler entering enemy airspace as an EW escort for stealthy F22s or the like broadcasts their presence. Probably not a big deal if you are dealing with the usual 3rd world suspects with mostly ancient Soviet-era air defenses, but anyone with a truly modern air defense system…
What am I supposed to put in for URL?
How did the Israeli’s penetrate Syrian air defense? Wat did they do? Wat kind of jammers did they use? Maybe we should take a good look at it.
Short of fighting a super power that can adapt quickly and live past the first 72 hours,
Seems the E/A birds seem to run out of a job shortly after any conflict starts these days.
The commonality bonus and lower cost evil, an AF EA-18G version, is the logical means of getting the job done.
Trust me the growler will get the job done.
The B52 seems kind of a good idea as they have been going “down town” for a long time and have lots of experience and are rugged but 7 bil seems kind of high just to jam the whole world. (lol) That is what would result if you used it in the stand off mode.
Isn’t it about time for the AF to use its vaunted drones for another mission? This sounds just like the perfect mission for a drone of some sort. Equip it with ECM and if it lights off and is shot down, then there is only the loss of the drone. Multiple stealth drones could escort a mission package into a target and if detected could be used to confuse things until the mission pulls off target and is leaving the area. Without human operators the risk to personnel is minimized which is always good plus cost of the aircraft is much less. I’m not up to date on all the configurations of the new drones, but I’m sure a stealth drone is available or is on the drawing boards that could keep up with a strike package. Plus being a drone who says it has to have super long legs? It could be based closer to the target area and meet up with the group. I may be way off here, but it seems reasonable to me.
Stealth? No, not what it is lead up to be. I was at testing of B-2… had to use a WWII radar unit to make the ac unseen… what a joke. That’s why the need for jammer escort. As with many falsely “proven” weapon systems it comes down to generals wants, you make it look good… suffer the consequences later. Cost to retrofit and dare I say, lives. Don’t use Iraq as a source of proven stealth tech. Old antiquated systems and flake type gunnery? Not a good test. Remember the stealth shot down in Bosnia? Lucky hit or better equiped enemy?
The short of it… poor planning, decision making and down right lies on the part of our huh… leaders. At least the discussion is in the air. Hope someone gets it right before wasting more trillions on system that don’t work.
WistleBlower,
I’m not buying it. I have worked with the B-2 and its RCS is significantly less than other aircraft. When you say they needed a WWII radar to make it unseen, what does that mean? What was the range? As you know reduceing the RCS dosnt make the ac invisible, it just reduces the range that a radar can detect the ac.
A few years ago Boeing proposed a F-15E Strike Eagle EW model. Maybe the -18 and the -15 could both work for thw Air Force. Do miss that EF-111…