We’ve had some pretty good discussions lately around the F-15 grounding issue and the number of F-22s the Air Force needs. Some suggested that there is no air-to-air threat facing the U.S., therefore we need to focus on other, more vital, platforms.
Well, get ready for the weekend with a gander at this video:
That bad boy could mess a Hornet or Eagle up in a knife fight, I’m afraid.
(Gouge: NP)
– Ward
{ 66 comments… read them below or add one }
There is no doubt that is some fancy flying. But how many of those airshow pilots fill out the line squadrons? How many of those pilots are as good as this dude? How many of those nifty thrust-vectoring aircraft do they have? And as far as potential air-to-air combat? What are the chances either side will successfully evade standoff homing missles and close within range that such fancy moves would make a difference? Air-to-air may not be dead but probably not worth replacing every eagle and hornet with a raptor.
What does this propaganda video have to do with reality?
I am assuming that one actually thinks that a conventional war will break out among the Chinese or Russians and the US, and BFM will be required to take on the massive fleet of SU-30 or SU-37′s at close range.
Ignore the BVR missiles or the JHMCS for closer encounters. Let’s do pretty aerobatics.
Keep the hope alive for a good old fashioned conventional high tech war, because this 4GW is kicking our butts(at least until recently).
Let the useless debates about the future begin.
I swallowed the SU30 bull for a long while, until the reports came in from the RAF v IAF dogfights in exercise Indrahanush. I could not believe it myself but the small, light, overpowered typhoon with great visibility and all that whopped the big ruski rig.
Thank you for another bit of russian air force showmenship, crap they can hardly put 10 aircraft let alone 100 in the air, and to be truthful to you, would those pilots really go up to meet the feared enemies of the state, look at some of the more recent russian military actions and one would have to say bye bye russia hello happiness. Come on guys use a more effective argument please. also don’t be surprises if they don’t creat a UCAV instead because they can’t get pilots or even pay them remember unmanned is better than no manned.
Since Ward was a weapons officer, and Ivan has always been known for…um, pragmatism…my guess would be Ward’s trying to tell you folks that’s more than “fancy flying”, or “pretty aerobatics”.
Some maneuvers may confer benefits in missile engagements — for example, enhanced firing solutions.
If so, you’ve got to counter with stealth, and/or better ECM and/or missiles.
IIRC, all of that and more is on the boards here, in Europe and Israel, in different stripes and flavors. You might not need an F-22 to match or beat the Su-3x series, but if the SHTF, you’ll need something.
FWIW, Ivan’s got a pretty good history of forcing us and the rest of the world into expensive countermeasures, and vice versa.
Don’t know that I’d call this “business as usual”, but there it is.
These maneuvers though impressive have very little to do with air to air combat. In all these situations the aircraft is basically sitting still. That’s a great situation for a missile of any sort, whether it is a BVR or dogfighting missile. The missile doesn’t have to bun energy trying to meet the target, the plane is just sitting in space. The only scenario in which I can see some of these maneuvers being tactically significant is quickly bringing weapons and/or sensors to bear on a target.
This is not to say that vectored thrust and canards can’t play a role in higher speed flight regimes, just that this video tells us next to nothing about the dogfighting ability of the aircraft.
I’ll bite.
I’m imagining a Taiwan scenario sometime in the future where the PLA launches hundreds of missiles and knocks out most Taiwan air defenses and craters their runways. We had spotted Chinese preparations, and of course knew where their best Russian-built/copied aircraft were located and had prepped our own plans prior to the “surprise attack.”
That night B-2 bombers and 3 squadrons with 54 F-22s drop hundreds of 1,000 bomb JDAMs onto Chinese airfields, air defenses, and surface to surface missile sites, cratering their runways and destroying half their best aircraft/S-300PMU (or whatever they call their copied ADA), and portable launchers near the coast.
The next morning our F-22s rotate squadrons, with a second set of pilots, and with 6 AMRAAMs per aircraft and AWACS feeding them info along with an AWACS-like functioning F-22, they take out 100+ Chinese aircraft per hour from long range…being fed exact locations as remaining Chinese aircraft take off from roads near the airbases or more distant sites. Navy Standard Missiles take out more aircraft crossing the straits. Other aircraft fire advanced HARM missiles at ADA sites daring to turn radars on.
Tell me how many good OR ANY Chinese aircraft and ADA systems are left after the first 24 hours?
By now our aircraft carriers arrive within range, and Taiwan patches its runways and rolls out fighters from its underground caves and both Navy F/A-18 and Taiwanese F-16s wreak havoc on Chinese landing craft attempting to cross the straits. If there are any S-300PMU still remaining, the Navy aircraft and Taiwanese jets stay near the island to avoid being taken out by long range air defenses….not to worry our jammers thwart those anyway. Marines arrive on V-22s…not that it matters because only a few infiltrating Chinese ever made the island.
It’s not even fair…and that’s with only 54 F-22s, 20 B-2s, and the non-stealthy aircraft the Navy and Taiwan can muster.
Dogfight? What dogfight at the F-22s 50,000′.
Pretty little dancer.
But with that radar profile, it’s just another baby seal.
Reminds me of something I read recently:
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2008/01/airforce_china_strategy_080121/
“The democratic Republic of China, commonly called Taiwan
It’s russian air ballet…
Harrier mixed with a f-22′s technology. Looks like the thermabolocs is not everything the russians are copycatting in the technlogy deaprtments lately.
Cole,
How about my scenario? War breaks out in the middle east with the Palestinians & Hezbollah attacking Israel again internally pulling Israeli troops from the Golan Heights into the interior to confront these threats.That allows Syria,Jordan,& Egypt to fire Scud Missiles & invade.After somehow Israel pulls her chestnuts out of the fire,the combined Army of Russia,Pakistan,Iran,& Turkey plus the former Soviet Central Asian states invade from the North while Libya & the Sudan leads the attack from Africa to the south.meanwhile,while all of this is going on,North Korea decides to nuke South Korea & Japan & proves that they have missiles that can hit Alaska & actually also be able to fly over the North Pole & actually threaten Western Europe.With all of this going on,China decides to invade Taiwan & fires a massive barrage of ballistic missiles at American bases in South Korea,Japan,Okinawa,& Guam.China also fires satellite killers into space to take out our satellites to include GPS satellites.They also send out their Sovremmeny destroyers armed with Sunburn anti-ship missiles to hunt down our aircraft carriers.They also launch obsolete fighter aircraft converted into UCAVs to sink our naval fleet.Add to all of this,terrorist attacks all over the free world & one-third of the earth’s population killed by nuclear weapons.
@FoxThree:
How about this? After an unprovoked attack on Japan, South Korea, and US bases in those countries, China is painted as an aggressor and threat to peace. US strategic forces are used to launch a crippling strike on Chinese armed forces. Overwhelming US nuclear first strike capability immolates the Chinese strategic nuclear forces and decapitates the Chinese military organization. The resulting international crisis threatens another world war and the world economy is dealt a staggering blow. However, China’s military capability to threaten other nations is ended for a generation.
Strategic nuclear deterrence still works, and I suspect it’ll keep the peace between China and the US for a long time.
Hey, how about my scenario?
Because of politics, we cannot engage targets Beyond Visual Range, so we have to get a visual heads-up before we shoot. Maybe because we are fighting with allies, who pilot the same aircraft as the enemy, so we don’t want to shoot down Frenchie, or Ahmed, or Srinvasa.
Or maybe, like Vietnam, like Kosovo, there are incredible restrictions placed on our fighters.
Seriously, we tried all of that stuff before, the “miracle weapons” that we call missiles that were supposed to make dogfighting a thing of the past. We ended up with the Phantom and a 1:1 kill ratio, with alot of good men dead. Knock it off already.
Stealth, missiles, AWACS, etc, are all awesome. But war negates your strengths, plays to your weaknesses. And in the end, you have to kick the door in and punch the enemy’s face through the back of his head. So go with the best weapon, the F-22, where there’s no contest.
Oh, btw, look beyond the maneuvers there. They aren’t important, not really.
Look at the ENERGY of the Su-27/37 etc. It can twist and turn all day long, which means it can get inside of another fighter’s turn, which means it can kill the enemy fighter. Period.
“Seriously, we tried all of that stuff before, the “miracle weapons” that we call missiles that were supposed to make dogfighting a thing of the past. We ended up with the Phantom and a 1:1 kill ratio, with alot of good men dead. Knock it off already.”
I have to second this.
Who do these commenters think they are helping? If they’re right, we’ve lost billions of dollars on planes that will never be needed, but we’ve managed to keep production lines open in case of new threats and kept our air deterrence at maximum, limiting the chances of war breaking out in the first place.
And if they’re wrong, we’ll have a lot of dead Americans and allies, and we’ll probably be looking at losing a war because of high casualties.
Considering the fact that we waste billions of dollars to make cheese cheaper, I just don’t get the mentality here.
NOBODY CARES. Enemy aircraft wouldn’t even make it off the ground. Unless you are trying to insinuate that we will ever enter into open conflict with Russia, China or India. Then you’d just be an idiot. The F22 is a turkey for a reason, albeit a damn fine one at that. I’m not against having it “just in case” and having it represent what American engineers/designers are capable of. It’s just never going to be pushed to the max. Ever.
Air to Air combat is dead because pretty much everyone got priced out of the game. And those that can afford to play in the club and are relevant would never turn on one another. If Iran were to buy up MiGs and Flankers, who cares? The Israelis demonstrated quite clearly to the Arabs in the six day war that it doesn’t matter how good your air force is if it’s sitting on the ground.
The thought of China as an adversary is a laugh. We’re far too dependent on one another for just about everything to start a war. And both sides have nuclear weapons, so it all would be rather irrelevant in the end now wouldn’t it?
If, hypothetically, a major country fights against the US in an air war, they will lose. The JSF/F22 will always have the first shot advantage and in this pretend open “large war” (which will never happen again) The US fighters would be firing beyond visual confirmation. Air to Air would be pointless, and both sides know it.
Skinner, interesting scenario though I don’t see how our nuclear forces would be one of our first choices in an engagement like that, although definitely right on with nuclear deterrence being in the back of everyones’ minds. What does leave me uneasy is the giant EMP tactic, China taking a shot out our beloved satellites and electronics. The US has obviously thought about that but I damn sure hope they have a working plan thought out.
As for air to air combat, can’t say it will be gone forever but a future occurrence I think is damn slim, due to the very very little chance of surviving AMRAAMs and if need be, the AIM-9X which pretty much cannot be fooled by anything. F-22s have been able to identify types of aircraft on their scope hundreds of times faster than AWACS can anyway, and having talked to Raptor pilots, you can count on them lobbing 2 (two) AMRAAMs at 1 fighter in a normal BVR engagement.
Well there are reports that Iran has ordered a couple hundred of these things. And Russia doesn’t have many of these, if any at all. They are all exported.
Venezuela just bought some too.
Cole, with your theories of warfare what do we need the Army for? After everything has been obliterated thanks to the Air Force and Navy, we can just send in the Marines to plant the flag.
I can’t believe we are debating the need for one of the most dominant aircraft ever to be built. The one issue with stealth is that in order to see the enemy you need to transmit some sort of electronic signal. If you want to get your AWACS close enough then they can detect them. Otherwise we are fighting at a disadvantage when we are the aggressor. That was proven in Kosovo. Luckily they didn’t have much of an air force to combat.
The F-22 is essential to our military might. Oh, and there are reports the Typhoon beat out the F-22 in 1 vs 1 engagements too.
DC2
How many people are driving cars made in 1972? Our pilots are driving Planes that are over 25 years old. To say they are mature is an understatement. The F22 is just now coming on line and will have teething problems for the next 5 years. Same with the F35. And the stress of Iraq and Afghanistan is aging them even faster. As far as I am concerned, they can’t buy enough F22′s fast enough!
DC2,
What were the rules of engagement when the F22′s fought the Typhoons? That is the problem when the media gets a hold of the winners in mock battles, they never say that the F22 was limited in some way. You never, never show all your cards even in mock fights with allies.
I’m no aeronautical engineer but couldn’t you put thrust-vectoring on a refrigerator and make it do all those nifty loopty loops. We know how to do it, F-16′s are still being built. TAADAA!
Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight, son.
Those are some very nice air show maneuvers and all but how many Su-30MKIs can your average small dictatorship afford really. I’d be more worried by swarms of small and advanced fighters like the J-10, Mig-35, FC-1, or even the Saab Grippen than a token squadron of Su-35s. A wing or two of Mig-35s with AESA radars might not be able to defeat a few squadrons of F-22s but I’d put good money that they could draw some blood.
DC2 is right with media reports not taking into account handicaps in mock air engagements, like the whole IAF vs. USAF business. On a related note, I came across this the other day:
“India’s defence ministry has confirmed that the six Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters that will participate in “Red Flag Nellis” manoeuvres at Nellis AFB, Nevada in August 2008 will operate without using their NIIP Bars radars.
“The radar frequencies are top secret, as they can be used to block vital functions of the fighter,” says the Indian air force, which adds: “While we have a good equation with the USA, we have to be careful about the future.” US interest in the system stems from China’s large inventory of Russian-made Su-30s, and Moscow has previously stated that the MKI’s radar frequencies should not be revealed.”
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/04/220616/india-bans-su-30mki-fighters-from-using-radars-during-red-flag-nellis.html
“While we have a good equation with the USA, we have to be careful about the future.”
In other words: “while we like bringing our nifty new airplanes to the US for exercises, we don’t want to piss off the Russians who sold us the darn things.”
am i right in thinking only india currently fields the model with thrust vectoring?
Asymetric warfare is the rule now. The new model for warfare is Hezbollah. They will be copied around the world on smaller and larger scales. As the price of UAV’s falls into lawnmower territory, the F-22 will be increasingly serving a mission without a purpose- a $100 billion turkey to satisfy the ego. The Israelis know that pretty shiny toys don’t win wars, it is the spare parts and maintenence, planning etc that allows older generations equipment to triumph. Look at Iran with their small boats, suicide bombers, EFP’s. They will follow up with thousands of short range missiles. The point is not to allow the US to use technology but to drag us into the mud with them and their six children per woman dempgraphics. For that kind of war, the war we will see in the future, the F-22 is valueless.
I see a lot of people throwing around scenarios which seem to have been written ten years ago, so how’s about this one:
Santa declares war on the United States, from the money he saves by not having to deliver presents to the US that year he buys Mrs Claus and himself and a whopping big Xmas gift: a couple of squadrons of SU-37 Super Flankers. At the same time he has his elves build him a radar system like this one: http://tinyurl.com/2mdurl – max cost a few hundred million dollars, so maybe Australia doesn’t get any presents this year either, but it’s summer down there at that time anyway, so who’s going to notice?
The president decides that the North Pole is ripe for regime change and sends in the airforce. Santa is clever enough to realise that he just needs to wait for the US to come for him so he sits tight, he doesn’t have to wait for long. Unsuspecting B-2s are soon picked up by Santa’s Associative Aperture Synthesis Radar (AASR) and he vectors in his Flankers squadrons from their bases on the artic ice, a whole load of B-2s get wasted. Since the Flankers operate from mobile airstrips the US cannot find targets for their cruise missiles. The only answer is to go in and take ‘em out air-to-air. The CIA start to wonder why they never thought of infiltrating Santa’s organisation and had only one guy covering the North Pole affairs desk, but this shouldn’t surprise anyone.
However, there’s a lot of civilian traffic in that area and nobody wants to see Rudolf and co. get smoked by some over-eager fighter jock, so all targets must be visually identified first . . .
And then the real fun begins . . . . .
why should china fight over taiwan? isn’t it enough to refuse to loan anymore money to the us government? that would really be scary, because the chinese basically finance your f22′s now if I am correct.
ps: and I never trusted that santa anyway.
Oops,I mean that China owns the former Long Beach Naval Base thanks to “Slick Willie” Clinton.China will also preemptively knock out our satellites with their Satellite killers & knock out our aircraft carriers & accompanying ships with their supersonic nuclear tipped anti-ship missiles & converted fighter aircraft UCAVs.Remember,this is a SURPRISE ATTACK,which means that WE are not expecting it.
While there’re many excellent articles on this site and some insightful commentary, MANY of the comments sound like they’ve been written by Tom Clancy’s methed-out younger brother. Git dem Chi-Comms, BOO-yeh!
Foxthree, I read that in Air Force Times and had to laugh. We need only look at Pearl Harbor and 9/11 to realize that logic goes out that window when your nation is preemptively attacked. And how is it logical to surrender to preemptive attack?
Most of our fighters and other bomber aircraft are not in range of the Chinese anyway. Aggressor Chinese would still be toast from U.S. based aircraft and our Navy…not to mention allies like Japan and South Korea who are upset about attacks on their soil. Can Chinese missiles attack Alaska before we get off the ground? If we suspect a preemptive attack from satellite intel (did you guys actually read the satellite article of a few weeks ago…it would be hard for them to hit us), shouldn’t our aircraft be on some kind of Zulu alert ala NATO Cold War days. You can do that with two pilots per aircraft. It’s harder with 1.25 pilots.
To whoever compared Viet Nam era radar missiles to the AMRAAM situation and AESA radars, I’m sure you realize the difference in technology and probability of kill is enormous.
DC2, the Army would be reinforcing the east side of Taiwan with landed C-17s carrying 3 FCS manned ground vehicles, safe from Chinese SAM missiles due to the mountain range in between. They would also be reinforcing South Korea to prevent land attacks there. Putting a lot of FCS armor on the ground is far more of a deterrent than V-22- transported light infantry.
Nobody is disputing the need for the F-22 and F-35. What is arguable is the number required. When you can kill every conceivable enemy fighter rapidly with 54 F-22s and other assets…why do you need 384? 183 is more than sufficient. Most of the air threat will be gone in a few days with the remainder taking another week or two. Why spend all you defense monies on the threats that we can kill the quickest and ignore the more difficult ground threats.
Airpower can greatly assist ground power in attacking ground threats, but they will never win the long war on their own, and stealth/dogfighting is not required for the long war. Multi-role fighters like the F-35 are more critical and versatile…but many current non-stealth aircraft can do just fine.
Talking with some pilots and engineers that I know and who have seen the acrobatics of the Russian planes up close, they tell me that while pretty and impressive, these planes essentially burn out their engines after each performance.
I dispute the need for the F-35. It is a mediocre plane that costs way too much for what it offers.
Keep the F35B and C, both are far superior to what the Navy and Marines fly now. Kill the A, use the money to buy more F22s (they’ll be much more useful for strikes against Iran or a war with China over Taiwan, due to higher range, higher speed and better stealth) and F16s (or some other cheap aircraft with good but not great capabilities that you can use as missile/bomb carriers over your own territory where it’s gonna be supported by your other air defenses).
jm2c
For those of you out there that are not keeping track, our good friends the Russians have already sold a good number of Thrust Vectoring Flankers to many nations. They have been building these aircraft since 1996 and they are damn good at it now. When are we going to get smart and start retro fitting some of our existing air craft with this technology? Why are we only building F-22 with thrust vectoring? Why is the JSF being built at all without this? Both the F-15 and the F-16 have been flown with experimental TVI which worked very well in flight testing.
I’ll agree with most of the people on there. That’s some awesome flying and a great show of Russian technology and aerodynamics. However, probably not of much use in combat.
On some of the other subjects. It’s really not in China’s best interest to start a shooting war over Taiwan. They have more to lose than gain (economically). I also don’t see the Russians going to war with the U.S. (again economics). There is also the fact that two nuclear powers have NEVER gone to war with one another.
@FoxThree: Deploying nukes would be a sure way to get yourself nuked. The Chinese know this and thus probably wouldn’t use them.
The “next” war is already on. You’re on its battlefield now.
Regarding air-to-air? Who knows? We’ve never been prepared for the war we find ourselves in.
jm2c,
I agree with your assesment of the F-35A. The reason it does not have thrust vectoring is because it is only a glorified F-16. We should not be purchasing this aircraft for the sake of fewer F-22s. The F-35 is a bomb truck and nothing more.
If we only purchase the B and C model, then we will be spending a whole lot more per aircraft.
And Cole, 183 F-22s cannot be supported efficiently or cost effectively. It does not make sense.
Like I have said 100 times on this blog. We need to purchase whatever number of F-22s the Air Force wants. But this needs to be done at the expense of terminating the F-35 entirely.
DC2
Isn’t there always a carrier battle group forward deployed in Japan? No way it takes 2 weeks to get a carrier to China. Even if it was in Hawaii would it take so much longer than 7 days?
Message to China courtesy of our F-22s,”Did you see us lay down da law? We are da “Lawgivers” !!!!!
Of course I’m being mocking,sarcastic,& condescending towards those who foolishly believe we can kick the Chinese asses because we have the F-22(& nothing else to back them up).
Could poisoned pet food,toothpaste,& cough syrup be considered a preemptive strike? How about piss poor car tires,contaminated food,or lead paint on children’s toys? How about Wal-Mart with its Chinese products whose safety is very dubious? Haven’t the Chinese launched a surprise attack on us already with their “Products of Mass Destruction?”
Foarp, agree it makes no economic sense for China to attack Taiwan or U.S. airbases due to what they would lose in trade and forfeited/frozen bonds,etc. But Taiwan, North Korea, and maybe Iran are the few plausible areas where a major war could break out requiring lots of air-to-air fighters and destruction of extensive air defenses.
The Air Force left 7 fighter air wings in the Pacific because they must believe that is the area most essential for fighter support. But those air wings should be a mix of F-22 and F-35 and other legacy aircraft with extended service lives.
I’m guessing the logic would be take out the toughest nuts guarding [insert aggressor name OR Iran ;)]first with F-22 and B-2 over a few days to a week. Next, add in clean configuration stealthy F-35 “bomb trucks” and jamming F/A-18 to finish the air defense job and shoot down enemy missiles. Finally, fight any long war with F-35 with internal/external loads, F/A-18, and other legacy aircraft to include F-16, F-15E and the B-1 bomber.
The recent scenario published in Air Force Times, and commissioned by, you guessed it, the USAF, is meant to scare us into letting them buy 200 more F-22s with monies likely to be stolen from some other ground modernization program. But F-22s carry little ordnance for bombing compared to the F-35 and bombing air interdiction and close air support together with GROUND COMBAT is what wins the long war…not air-to-air or destruction of air defenses.
The ground combat component became even more clear to me when I read this scenario.
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=16536
I guess I had assumed that the PLA/PLAAF did not have much of an airborne capability…big mistake. Believe air defenses and non-stealthy Taiwanese F-16s and Navy F/A-18s would be more than up to shooting those transport aircraft down as they crossed the straits….if they arrived in time. But if the PLA does get troops on the ground, you need an effective ground force like FCS and V-22 transported Marines to root out the enemy.
The RAND study commissioned by, you guessed it, the USAF, neglects the viability of air missile defense systems already in place and being planned to defend Japan and South Korea.
http://www.missilethreat.com/archives/id.49/subject_detail.asp
These ground and sea AMD capabilities are just as crucial as air-to-air capability. Also, F-22s and F-35s might well spend a great deal of future time/effort shooting down inbound missiles AND outbound missiles once the threat is reduced allowing us to be in range for missile engagement during climb out….followed up by destruction of the mobile launcher.
I’m just not seeing how a future USAF equipped with 200-220 (not 381)F-22 and 800(not 1763)F-35s can be defeated. Their qualitative capabilities overwhelm lower or equal numbers of threat quality systems…and we still have nearly all of them surviving AND a legacy joint modernized fleet to finish the job.
But I can see that exploiting new/enhanced bases in places like Guam, could make F-22/F-35 basing more survivable to surprise attacks from threat missile systems. And aircraft based in Alaska and maybe Hawaii could also be diverted to Guam during an emergency…to shorten turnaround time for sorties.
http://afa.org/magazine/July2004/0704airpower.asp
Since I read in one of the earlier scenarios that many Taiwanese, to include Police and Military want to unite with mainland China…this whole argument may be academic in coming elections. That certainly has potential to reduce a lot of tension…that is until the Chinese start driving a lot more cars and start trying to steal other country’s off-shore oil from seas around China…
Given the number of systems engineers working on fighter development for the Pentagon, you’ve got to figure there’s a pretty good reason that the requirement for T/V was dropped from the ATF requirement (hence not on the YF-23) and hasn’t been used for the JSF. Thrust vectoring technology was developed first by the British in the Harrier (pretty limited) and then appeared in numerous US demonstration aircraft in the 1980s. So, the US spent the money to develop the technology, and then never used it. Why would that be? My suspicion is that the added maneuverability makes for a pretty air show demonstration, but the added weight and complexity end up outweighing the benefits. Add in new technologies like stealth and missles with high off-boresite capabilities, and thrust vectoring is just another fighter fad like optimization for mach 2+ flight in the 1950s and 1960s (versus good transonic acceleration today), variable geometry wings in the 1960s, and canards in the 1970s.
Wouldn’t the pilot pass out from too much G-Forces connected with Thrust Vector maneuvers? Unless you have an AI on board to take over for the pilot until he regains consciousness,wouldn’t thrust vectoring be more a danger than an asset,& don’t get me wrong,I’d love to see thrust vectoring on our F-16s & F-15s.
“To whoever compared Viet Nam era radar missiles to the AMRAAM situation and AESA radars, I’m sure you realize the difference in technology and probability of kill is enormous.”
And beside the point. They can be neutralized if the politicians say “no”. And they often say “no.” Regard ROE in Vietnam, Kosovo, and Iraq, if you wish.
“Nobody is disputing the need for the F-22 and F-35.”
Au contraire. Many people do.
“Foarp, agree it makes no economic sense for China to attack Taiwan or U.S. airbases due to what they would lose in trade and forfeited/frozen bonds,etc.”
Wars are not fought over economic interests; they are fought over fears. If they were based off of logical, they would never happen at all.
The F-22 Raptor may or may not be necessary now, thats up for debate. But maybe in 10-15 years probably 20 years, it will be needed. So might as well have it now and keep it.
The USS Kitty Hawk is homeported in Japan. It has a complement of around 60 aircraft. That isn’t enough to do squat against China. But the other ships/subs (including SSGNs) with their associated Tomahawk load can do the job. The problem is the Navy will also have to do air defence of ballistic missiles (that is why the shis with this capability are stationed in Hawaii) as well as defense from aircraft over the Straits of Taiwan.
We keep mentioning Iran as well. They have been accused of making purchases of the SU-30 an J-10 in the hundreds. Just thought I would throw that one out there.
Now keep in mind those of you that read this blog, Cole is a contractor for the FCS system. Do you think his opinions are a little skewed due to this.
It is funny that I am a sailor and yet I support buying more F-22s up to and including 381 the Air Force recommends. I even have no problem doing this at the expense of my Navy F-35C. The reason is simple: I have no faith in the F-35.
Used as a stealth bomber, the F-35 can carry only two bombs internally (the B version is limited to 1,000lb. bombs due to the change in bomb bay layout). The C version is limited to 7.5g loads, less than the F-18. Let the Air Force get the F-22s they want, let the Navy and USMC get more F-18E/Fs. We have more important needs than this airplane. The Air Force needs to recapitalize it’s entire air fleet (tankers, bombers, figthers, and soone fighter/bombers). The Navy needs to focus on getting more ships to sea and developing a new ASW platform for the carriers (otherwise the Chinese subs will own the Straits of Taiwan). And the Marines need to focus on procurment of the V-22, H-53K, H-1Y/Z, and AAV.
China is a threat, period. To think otherwise would be foolish. We are more indebted to them (literally) than they are to us. In fact, they are making alliances with the rogue nations (Sudan) and our enemies (Venezuela is one) to make sure their natural resources are still available in case something happens. And they are trying very hard to develop and sustain a blue water navy.
We need to wake up. Insurgencies are great for weakening an nation economically (Afghanistan for USSR and Vietnam and Iraq for us), but nothing more. If we left Iraq today our nation will be no closer to being toppled than it was 10 years ago. We may be less safe as individuals, but our nation will still remain.
DC2
“I even have no problem doing this at the expense of my Navy F-35C. The reason is simple: I have no faith in the F-35″
Well that would be just great for the UK, we’ve sunk all that money into those aircraft and the aircraft carriers we’re going to fly ‘em from and then the US says it’s not going to play?
DC2:
You’re mistaken. Contrary to rumor, the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) is not equipped with the Su-30. There are recent reports of Iran purchasing two squadrons of J-10 fighters from China, but this is unconfirmed (in fact, it is publicly denied by China).
The IRIAF is currently equipped with a small remainder of F-14A Tomcats, which have been refurbished at great cost to the Islamic Republic. Additionally, the IRIAF is equipped with two units of MiG-29 Fulcrums, probably numbering around 24 examples, which have been wired to use Western air-to-air missiles. These Fucrums also been modified to include refueling probes and larger then standard drop tanks.
“The USS Kitty Hawk is homeported in Japan. It has a complement of around 60 aircraft. That isn’t enough to do squat against China.”
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Reply: 60 aircraft flying close to Taiwan mountain ranges would spare them from long range S-300PMU-2 and long range radar air-to-air missiles, and would ensure no transport aircraft make it to shore. Equipped with the right current/future missiles, 60 aircraft could down substantial numbers of inbound TBM and cruise missiles. F/A-18s SHOULD NOT try to play air-to-air until threat SU aircraft are gone. The F/A-18 radar cross section is too large…and highly doubt the Chinese will be averse to BVR shots…nor will WE once they play that hand as their primary modus operandi.
If the Navy/Marines have F-35Bs and Cs on carriers, these aircraft CAN make a bigger contribution in the early air dominance effort…perhaps doubling the numbers of stealthy aircraft available early in the fight.
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“But the other ships/subs (including SSGNs) with their associated Tomahawk load can do the job. The problem is the Navy will also have to do air defence of ballistic missiles (that is why the shis with this capability are stationed in Hawaii) as well as defense from aircraft over the Straits of Taiwan.”
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Good stuff
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“It is funny that I am a sailor and yet I support buying more F-22s up to and including 381 the Air Force recommends. I even have no problem doing this at the expense of my Navy F-35C. The reason is simple: I have no faith in the F-35.”
“Used as a stealth bomber, the F-35 can carry only two bombs internally (the B version is limited to 1,000lb. bombs due to the change in bomb bay layout).”
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Reply: My understanding is that the F-22 can only carry two 1000 lb JDAM (and lots of SDB?) while the F-35 can carry two internal 2000 lb JDAM and MANY OTHER MUNITIONS that the F-22 cannot hold internally.
Also, the USAF and other services/allies can buy 2 to 3 F-35 for the price of each F-22 allowing us to fill the skies of any aggressor nation with hordes of “bomb trucks” and AMRAAM carriers with good frontal stealth. Sounds like something worth having faith in to me DC2….
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“The C version is limited to 7.5g loads, less than the F-18.”
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Reply: The A model does 9 gs. F/A-18 radar cross section ensures mutual suicide, at best, when both sides fire radar missiles. The B and C version could stay inbound and release AMRAAM without worrying about the SU aircraft returning the favor effectively.
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“Let the Air Force get the F-22s they want, let the Navy and USMC get more F-18E/Fs. We have more important needs than this airplane. The Air Force needs to recapitalize it’s entire air fleet (tankers, bombers, figthers, and soon fighter/bombers). The Navy needs to focus on getting more ships to sea and developing a new ASW platform for the carriers (otherwise the Chinese subs will own the Straits of Taiwan). And the Marines need to focus on procurment of the V-22, H-53K, H-1Y/Z, and AAV.”
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Reply: Or use the monies NOT SPENT on 200 too many F-22s for new tankers and bombers. Better yet, buy teamed bombing UCAVs to escort F-22s and perform future aerial refueling. Buy more C-17s, and upgrade the A-10. Purchase aircraft that can be used for the long war…not just the first few days.
Then buy fewer F-35s. Don’t shelf a project that exploits F-22 stealth R&D employed on the F-35 that costs a fraction as much to perform the mission most essential to winning wars…being a “bomb truck”….that can also assist the F-22 in mopping up the less capable air defenses and fighters after the first few days.
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“China is a threat, period. To think otherwise would be foolish. We are more indebted to them (literally) than they are to us. In fact, they are making alliances with the rogue nations (Sudan) and our enemies (Venezuela is one) to make sure their natural resources are still available in case something happens. And they are trying very hard to develop and sustain a blue water navy.”
“We need to wake up. Insurgencies are great for weakening an nation economically (Afghanistan for USSR and Vietnam and Iraq for us), but nothing more. If we left Iraq today our nation will be no closer to being toppled than it was 10 years ago. We may be less safe as individuals, but our nation will still remain.”
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Reply: DC2, have Palestinian and Lebanese Hezbollah terrorists/insurgents ever shown ANY sign of lessening their radicalism…no matter what Israel did? Do you think Islamic radicalism disappears because we bail on Iraq or Afghanistan too early?
We can never end Islamic radicalism in our lifetimes or that of our children, or children’s children. We can teach the masses that we aren’t so bad through COIN and Provincial Reconstruction efforts. We can also kill terrorist, who instead of hiding until they strike Europe and the U.S., choose to come to Iraq and Afghanistan so we can find/kill them there.
Those dissuaded from violence through COIN, and nation-building join the mass of less radical Islamic citizens who are not a threat. Those killed in combat, are Islamic citizens unlikely to nuke or gas U.S./European cities. Given the example of 9/11 and the Spanish subway…those are efforts WE MUST address for the foreseeable future….because they are far more likely to occur than war with China.
The biggest threat China poses to us is economic, as you point out. The stronger they become in that arena, the less likely they are to endanger that dominance through war with its trading partners.
Oh yeah,China wouldn’t want to jeopardize the selling of those “[un]safe” products to unsuspecting stooges like us by going to war.Oh well,I’m going to the store in my car with Chinese made tires,I sure hope I don’t have a blow out…….& a fatal accident using products that China wouldn’t want to risk not being able to sell to me because they might go to war.
I agree,China has way too much to lose in poisoning us with their products by actually firing a gun in anger.
Cole,in addition to working on the FCS,you aren’t a spokesperson for China are you?
“NOBODY CARES. Enemy aircraft wouldn’t even make it off the ground. Unless you are trying to insinuate that we will ever enter into open conflict with Russia, China or India. Then you’d just be an idiot. The F22 is a turkey for a reason, albeit a damn fine one at that. I’m not against having it “just in case” and having it represent what American engineers/designers are capable of. It’s just never going to be pushed to the max. Ever.
Air to Air combat is dead because pretty much everyone got priced out of the game. And those that can afford to play in the club and are relevant would never turn on one another. If Iran were to buy up MiGs and Flankers, who cares? The Israelis demonstrated quite clearly to the Arabs in the six day war that it doesn’t matter how good your air force is if it’s sitting on the ground.”
SW — You’ll never persuade Ward by appealing to history, economics, basic psychology and strategic necessity. He operates in some other reality. Along with “Tom Clancy’s methed-out younger brother[s]” — an excellent and apt description.
Here’s a naive and/or ignorant question from a civilian:
Aren’t avionics and weapons systems more important than thrust vectoring? And what about Command and Control systems such as AWACS? Seems to me we should think in terms of total system capabilities.
One last thought — I have a feeling that the F22 will be our last manned fighter. I want it to be the BEST.
Veriander, you are correct, communication, intel gathering, avionics and weapon systems are premier components of systems such as the F-22. There’s emphasis on electronic capabilities that give the US a distinct advantage over other countries. Things like Link 16 allows tremendous information sharing capability (or the Raptor’s AESA radar which acts as a wi-fi and can transfer data way…way faster), global hawk, AF space command has been developing newer MILSTAR/AEHF/TSAT things that will really boost networking, and more obviously, the Air Force Cyber Command just started. So yea a lot more big time non-physical-related work has/is being done in additional to physical developments like thrust vectoring. As stated by others here, thrust vectoring is cool in a dogfight but if you can track and kill the enemy 20 miles out as soon as he takes off…well…sucks for him.
FoxThree, thanks for the feedback.
I’m all for the lastest-and-greatest in technology, and as a taxpayer I’m pleased to support the men and women who fight. Even though it may be superflous, I’m glad the F22 retains basic dogfighting capability. It’s certain that the Raptor’s cannon will rarely be used in combat, but neverhteless, I’m glad it’s there if needed.
As for thrust vectoring, I suspect stealth and supercruise will prove to be more valuable.
Do you want to know whats schizophrenic? We talk about how we don’t need to teach our pilots dog fighting skills because its all become passe,& yet the very air to air missiles that would definatly make it passe are retired from service or canceled altogether.I’m talking of course about the AIM-54 Phoenix Missile & the AIM-155 Advanced Air-to-Air Missile,also known as the Outer Air Battle Missile.The same “brilliant” minds who canceled these weapons also canceled our ability to protect our naval fleet from submarine attacks by getting rid of all of our anti-submarine warfare.
When I hear someone say that we have no threats against us as a nation,that nobody else has an air force or navy(or even ground troops) that can threaten us,I roll my eyes & wonder what strong wine or alcohol that person has been drinking that has made him “mad(insane)?” Only an insane person would spout such nonsense. Only a person who should be committed to a mental institute would both believe & say such nonsense. To quote Festus in the bible,”thou art beside thyself;much learning doth make[is driving] thee mad.”
When our nation’s leaders & “brilliant minds” have lost their minds & gone insane,then we’re all screwed.
China will behave as long as we are relevant to them. That means we continue to buy their tainted products and borrow their money. When we as a country smarten up and end this, then there will be war.
Sglover, you speak of Tom Clancy. Tom Clancy showed how easy it was for a rogue dedicated individual bent on suicide can fly an airplane into a building. Sound familiar?
My point about the F-35 is that we need the F-22 far more. And we should use the money saved on the F-35 to purchase more F-22s and F-16Es. And there is no guarantee we will buy F-35s in enough numbers to make a difference either. Look at what we did with the F-22 purchase.
DC2
I wonder if the “nay sayers” against what I’m saying are really Chinese or “Pro-Chinese” infiltrators trying to lull us to sleep & deny everything we are saying to fear about China & its hegemony.A Chinese “fifth Column” so to speak.I say that because nobody can honestly be so “consistently” blind to the Chinese Threat unless they are in China’s back pocket & “paid” to voice such “disagreements or opposition” to common sense.
Again,once the Beijing Olympics are over(& unless the Chinese want to also host the Winter Olympics &/or the FIFA World Cup),then we’ll see a more hostile & unfriendly China,mark my words on that.
Spacewar.com has an article about the “Future Combat System” called “FCS Follies”
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Defense_Focus_FCS_follies_Part_1_999.html
It talks about he we are too dependent on WiFi technology & how it can be easily hacked into by Cyber-terrorists or by China,who is working very hard on being able to commit cyber-attacks on our systems.The Chinese are working on being able to shoot down our military,spy,& communications(which if they are able to do,will knock out our GPS capability & force our troops to go back to the old-fashioned,passe practice of using compasses & reading maps).
Now,if anybody is as big a “Battlestar Galactica” fan as I am,they know how “Baltar” sold defense secrets to their enemy which was able to defeat the “Colonies” defenses.Now,if there were plenty of people who would sell their souls to both betray & spy for the USSR on us,then why couldn’t the same be true today concerning people betraying our country & spying on our country for China? It only takes one “Baltar” to sell our codes to our whiz bang weapons which would allow China to hack into our systems,give our troops false commands,shut down our early warning radar systems,air defense & ballistic missiles,& God knows what else.What good is our vaunted technology if China can hack into it & turn it against us? Riddle me that,”brilliant minds?”
Roy, let it rest. The Chinese are literally not 10′ tall, nor were/are the Russians. The Olympics should make the Chinese feel good about being part of the world and may enhance future tourism there if they are deemed West-friendly. Heck my own own Mom has been there and says we don’t need to worry about them taking over the world because they will kill themselves from all the smog they breathe and cigarettes they smoke…but at least they get a lot of exercise on bicycles. And this is the nation that is going to take over the world and shoot down geosynchronous satellites?
An election coming up in Taiwan in March may indicate a national majority wants eventual reunification. There are already enough economic ties between Taiwan and China…although I read that even Taiwanese companies are exploring other options in places like Viet Nam since China raised taxes on outside companies.
I think that last point is the key. Much of what China makes ends up in Walmart. Well guess what, Walmart will buy products from Viet Nam if they are cheaper than those from China. So price pressures on Chinese products coupled with perception of lower quality will prevent them from charging premium prices for the foreseeable future. If they continue to become an economic superpower, it will be through mass consumption of their cheap, not expensive products. If they end up driving a lot more cars to strain oil supplies, suspect they will be their $2500 tiny specials…which won’t use too much gas but will certainly exacerbate their pollution problems. Bring oxygen if you go to the Beijing Olympics.
Don’t want to get into FCS stuff other than to say that UPI’s Martin Sieff seems like a sharp guy and writes well. But I find little credibility in an argument that failed WWI comms(part 2 of his article) are why the FCS network will never work. Gee why don’t we all go back to the telegraph…oh wait they might hack that too. In another article he was comparing British rule of Iraq between 1918 and 1933 to explain why the Iraqis would never come around today. Maybe they won’t but bet today’s Iraqis are a whole lot different than those of 90 years ago.
Sieff has a 1972 Masters degree from Oxford in Modern History. Don’t see how that makes him an expert in the military or computers. Very few folks, to include me, understand the SOSCOE operating system…but think Windows for the military and be glad it is Linux-based for future enhancements and plug and play upgrades of future systems and software. If it was Windows-based I would really worry about hackers!!
Besides, the software is “only” $6 billion of the total, and is 1/3 finished..it will have some problems no doubt and they will be fixed. It’s mcuh easier to integrate and fix some aspect of one single operating system architecture than the software of 14 different manufacturers going 14 different directions with independently developed combat systems.
Cole,
It seems to me that the Chinese have a type of inferiority complex.They have almost made a vast majority of animals on this planet extinct just so that they can make an aphrodisiac to get it up & yet they(the nation of Red China) make up the vast majority of people alone on this earth.Through the combination of foolish population control policies & the fact that their people only want males,they have the problem of having about 100 males for every female.I’m sure that not all of those males want to be gay,so China has to figure out a way to supply women to all of those males.That can only come through conquest.They damn well know that they cannot defeat us militarily,so they use the economy to defeat us.They use the students that they send to our nation to learn our technology & bring it back home to China.They also have no problem whatsoever with sacrificing a large number of their own people in war if it achieves victory(& also helps to bring more balance to the male-female ratio).The Chinese are wise enough to know that they cannot take us head on,but they are developing the asymmetrical means to defeat us.They will use our arrogance against us.
We should always train to expect the worse in our enemies.That means learning how to dogfight,period.To arrogantly say that it is unnecessary invites defeat.We are too proud & arrogant as a people to see this.We are too busy bragging & boasting about how great we are & the other nations are laughing at us behind our backs & will laugh at loud if we get our butts beat.Everybody loves to see the bully & braggart go down.
We(the U.S.) are nothing but a bunch of “preening gasbags.”
I was just reading on military.com that the military is asking for $20B to increase the size of the Army/Marines by 20,000. That amount of money would also purchase the additional number of F-22s the Air Force wants.
Let’s hear a rebuttal Cole.
DC2
awesome video. Watching a fighter float around like that while a simple heat-seeking missile homed in on it would be kinda cool.
Sorry. Don’t believe there is an air threat out there. The dogfighting days ended a long time ago.