We’ve had some pretty good discussions lately around the F-15 grounding issue and the number of F-22s the Air Force needs. Some suggested that there is no air-to-air threat facing the U.S., therefore we need to focus on other, more vital, platforms.
Well, get ready for the weekend with a gander at this video:
That bad boy could mess a Hornet or Eagle up in a knife fight, I’m afraid.
(Gouge: NP)
– Ward
“The USS Kitty Hawk is homeported in Japan. It has a complement of around 60 aircraft. That isn’t enough to do squat against China.“
____________________________________
Reply: 60 aircraft flying close to Taiwan mountain ranges would spare them from long range S-300PMU-2 and long range radar air-to-air missiles, and would ensure no transport aircraft make it to shore. Equipped with the right current/future missiles, 60 aircraft could down substantial numbers of inbound TBM and cruise missiles. F/A-18s SHOULD NOT try to play air-to-air until threat SU aircraft are gone. The F/A-18 radar cross section is too large…and highly doubt the Chinese will be averse to BVR shots…nor will WE once they play that hand as their primary modus operandi.
If the Navy/Marines have F-35Bs and Cs on carriers, these aircraft CAN make a bigger contribution in the early air dominance effort…perhaps doubling the numbers of stealthy aircraft available early in the fight.
—————————-
“But the other ships/subs (including SSGNs) with their associated Tomahawk load can do the job. The problem is the Navy will also have to do air defence of ballistic missiles (that is why the shis with this capability are stationed in Hawaii) as well as defense from aircraft over the Straits of Taiwan.“
———————————
Good stuff
———————————–
“It is funny that I am a sailor and yet I support buying more F-22s up to and including 381 the Air Force recommends. I even have no problem doing this at the expense of my Navy F-35C. The reason is simple: I have no faith in the F-35.“
“Used as a stealth bomber, the F-35 can carry only two bombs internally (the B version is limited to 1,000lb. bombs due to the change in bomb bay layout).“
———————————–
Reply: My understanding is that the F-22 can only carry two 1000 lb JDAM (and lots of SDB?) while the F-35 can carry two internal 2000 lb JDAM and MANY OTHER MUNITIONS that the F-22 cannot hold internally.
Also, the USAF and other services/allies can buy 2 to 3 F-35 for the price of each F-22 allowing us to fill the skies of any aggressor nation with hordes of “bomb trucks” and AMRAAM carriers with good frontal stealth. Sounds like something worth having faith in to me DC2.…
——————————–
“The C version is limited to 7.5g loads, less than the F-18.“
———————————-
Reply: The A model does 9 gs. F/A-18 radar cross section ensures mutual suicide, at best, when both sides fire radar missiles. The B and C version could stay inbound and release AMRAAM without worrying about the SU aircraft returning the favor effectively.
———————————–
“Let the Air Force get the F-22s they want, let the Navy and USMC get more F-18E/Fs. We have more important needs than this airplane. The Air Force needs to recapitalize it’s entire air fleet (tankers, bombers, figthers, and soon fighter/bombers). The Navy needs to focus on getting more ships to sea and developing a new ASW platform for the carriers (otherwise the Chinese subs will own the Straits of Taiwan). And the Marines need to focus on procurment of the V-22, H-53K, H-1Y/Z, and AAV.“
———————————
Reply: Or use the monies NOT SPENT on 200 too many F-22s for new tankers and bombers. Better yet, buy teamed bombing UCAVs to escort F-22s and perform future aerial refueling. Buy more C-17s, and upgrade the A-10. Purchase aircraft that can be used for the long war…not just the first few days.
Then buy fewer F-35s. Don’t shelf a project that exploits F-22 stealth R&D employed on the F-35 that costs a fraction as much to perform the mission most essential to winning wars…being a “bomb truck”.…that can also assist the F-22 in mopping up the less capable air defenses and fighters after the first few days.
—————————–
“China is a threat, period. To think otherwise would be foolish. We are more indebted to them (literally) than they are to us. In fact, they are making alliances with the rogue nations (Sudan) and our enemies (Venezuela is one) to make sure their natural resources are still available in case something happens. And they are trying very hard to develop and sustain a blue water navy.“
“We need to wake up. Insurgencies are great for weakening an nation economically (Afghanistan for USSR and Vietnam and Iraq for us), but nothing more. If we left Iraq today our nation will be no closer to being toppled than it was 10 years ago. We may be less safe as individuals, but our nation will still remain.“
———————————-
Reply: DC2, have Palestinian and Lebanese Hezbollah terrorists/insurgents ever shown ANY sign of lessening their radicalism…no matter what Israel did? Do you think Islamic radicalism disappears because we bail on Iraq or Afghanistan too early?
We can never end Islamic radicalism in our lifetimes or that of our children, or children’s children. We can teach the masses that we aren’t so bad through COIN and Provincial Reconstruction efforts. We can also kill terrorist, who instead of hiding until they strike Europe and the U.S., choose to come to Iraq and Afghanistan so we can find/kill them there.
Those dissuaded from violence through COIN, and nation-building join the mass of less radical Islamic citizens who are not a threat. Those killed in combat, are Islamic citizens unlikely to nuke or gas U.S./European cities. Given the example of 9/11 and the Spanish subway…those are efforts WE MUST address for the foreseeable future.…because they are far more likely to occur than war with China.
The biggest threat China poses to us is economic, as you point out. The stronger they become in that arena, the less likely they are to endanger that dominance through war with its trading partners.
Oh yeah,China wouldn’t want to jeopardize the selling of those “[un]safe” products to unsuspecting stooges like us by going to war.Oh well,I’m going to the store in my car with Chinese made tires,I sure hope I don’t have a blow out.……& a fatal accident using products that China wouldn’t want to risk not being able to sell to me because they might go to war.
I agree,China has way too much to lose in poisoning us with their products by actually firing a gun in anger.
Cole,in addition to working on the FCS,you aren’t a spokesperson for China are you?
“NOBODY CARES. Enemy aircraft wouldn’t even make it off the ground. Unless you are trying to insinuate that we will ever enter into open conflict with Russia, China or India. Then you’d just be an idiot. The F22 is a turkey for a reason, albeit a damn fine one at that. I’m not against having it “just in case” and having it represent what American engineers/designers are capable of. It’s just never going to be pushed to the max. Ever.
Air to Air combat is dead because pretty much everyone got priced out of the game. And those that can afford to play in the club and are relevant would never turn on one another. If Iran were to buy up MiGs and Flankers, who cares? The Israelis demonstrated quite clearly to the Arabs in the six day war that it doesn’t matter how good your air force is if it’s sitting on the ground.“
SW — You’ll never persuade Ward by appealing to history, economics, basic psychology and strategic necessity. He operates in some other reality. Along with “Tom Clancy’s methed-out younger brother[s]” — an excellent and apt description.
Here’s a naive and/or ignorant question from a civilian:
Aren’t avionics and weapons systems more important than thrust vectoring? And what about Command and Control systems such as AWACS? Seems to me we should think in terms of total system capabilities.
One last thought — I have a feeling that the F22 will be our last manned fighter. I want it to be the BEST.
Veriander, you are correct, communication, intel gathering, avionics and weapon systems are premier components of systems such as the F-22. There’s emphasis on electronic capabilities that give the US a distinct advantage over other countries. Things like Link 16 allows tremendous information sharing capability (or the Raptor’s AESA radar which acts as a wi-fi and can transfer data way…way faster), global hawk, AF space command has been developing newer MILSTAR/AEHF/TSAT things that will really boost networking, and more obviously, the Air Force Cyber Command just started. So yea a lot more big time non-physical-related work has/is being done in additional to physical developments like thrust vectoring. As stated by others here, thrust vectoring is cool in a dogfight but if you can track and kill the enemy 20 miles out as soon as he takes off…well…sucks for him.
FoxThree, thanks for the feedback.
I’m all for the lastest-and-greatest in technology, and as a taxpayer I’m pleased to support the men and women who fight. Even though it may be superflous, I’m glad the F22 retains basic dogfighting capability. It’s certain that the Raptor’s cannon will rarely be used in combat, but neverhteless, I’m glad it’s there if needed.
As for thrust vectoring, I suspect stealth and supercruise will prove to be more valuable.
Do you want to know whats schizophrenic? We talk about how we don’t need to teach our pilots dog fighting skills because its all become passe,& yet the very air to air missiles that would definatly make it passe are retired from service or canceled altogether.I’m talking of course about the AIM-54 Phoenix Missile & the AIM-155 Advanced Air-to-Air Missile,also known as the Outer Air Battle Missile.The same “brilliant” minds who canceled these weapons also canceled our ability to protect our naval fleet from submarine attacks by getting rid of all of our anti-submarine warfare.
When I hear someone say that we have no threats against us as a nation,that nobody else has an air force or navy(or even ground troops) that can threaten us,I roll my eyes & wonder what strong wine or alcohol that person has been drinking that has made him “mad(insane)?” Only an insane person would spout such nonsense. Only a person who should be committed to a mental institute would both believe & say such nonsense. To quote Festus in the bible,“thou art beside thyself;much learning doth make[is driving] thee mad.”
When our nation’s leaders & “brilliant minds” have lost their minds & gone insane,then we’re all screwed.
China will behave as long as we are relevant to them. That means we continue to buy their tainted products and borrow their money. When we as a country smarten up and end this, then there will be war.
Sglover, you speak of Tom Clancy. Tom Clancy showed how easy it was for a rogue dedicated individual bent on suicide can fly an airplane into a building. Sound familiar?
My point about the F-35 is that we need the F-22 far more. And we should use the money saved on the F-35 to purchase more F-22s and F-16Es. And there is no guarantee we will buy F-35s in enough numbers to make a difference either. Look at what we did with the F-22 purchase.
DC2
I wonder if the “nay sayers” against what I’m saying are really Chinese or “Pro-Chinese” infiltrators trying to lull us to sleep & deny everything we are saying to fear about China & its hegemony.A Chinese “fifth Column” so to speak.I say that because nobody can honestly be so “consistently” blind to the Chinese Threat unless they are in China’s back pocket & “paid” to voice such “disagreements or opposition” to common sense.
Again,once the Beijing Olympics are over(& unless the Chinese want to also host the Winter Olympics &/or the FIFA World Cup),then we’ll see a more hostile & unfriendly China,mark my words on that.
Spacewar.com has an article about the “Future Combat System” called “FCS Follies“
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Defense_Focus_FCS_follies_Part_1_999.html
It talks about he we are too dependent on WiFi technology & how it can be easily hacked into by Cyber-terrorists or by China,who is working very hard on being able to commit cyber-attacks on our systems.The Chinese are working on being able to shoot down our military,spy,& communications(which if they are able to do,will knock out our GPS capability & force our troops to go back to the old-fashioned,passe practice of using compasses & reading maps).
Now,if anybody is as big a “Battlestar Galactica” fan as I am,they know how “Baltar” sold defense secrets to their enemy which was able to defeat the “Colonies” defenses.Now,if there were plenty of people who would sell their souls to both betray & spy for the USSR on us,then why couldn’t the same be true today concerning people betraying our country & spying on our country for China? It only takes one “Baltar” to sell our codes to our whiz bang weapons which would allow China to hack into our systems,give our troops false commands,shut down our early warning radar systems,air defense & ballistic missiles,& God knows what else.What good is our vaunted technology if China can hack into it & turn it against us? Riddle me that,“brilliant minds?”
Roy, let it rest. The Chinese are literally not 10′ tall, nor were/are the Russians. The Olympics should make the Chinese feel good about being part of the world and may enhance future tourism there if they are deemed West-friendly. Heck my own own Mom has been there and says we don’t need to worry about them taking over the world because they will kill themselves from all the smog they breathe and cigarettes they smoke…but at least they get a lot of exercise on bicycles. And this is the nation that is going to take over the world and shoot down geosynchronous satellites?
An election coming up in Taiwan in March may indicate a national majority wants eventual reunification. There are already enough economic ties between Taiwan and China…although I read that even Taiwanese companies are exploring other options in places like Viet Nam since China raised taxes on outside companies.
I think that last point is the key. Much of what China makes ends up in Walmart. Well guess what, Walmart will buy products from Viet Nam if they are cheaper than those from China. So price pressures on Chinese products coupled with perception of lower quality will prevent them from charging premium prices for the foreseeable future. If they continue to become an economic superpower, it will be through mass consumption of their cheap, not expensive products. If they end up driving a lot more cars to strain oil supplies, suspect they will be their $2500 tiny specials…which won’t use too much gas but will certainly exacerbate their pollution problems. Bring oxygen if you go to the Beijing Olympics.
Don’t want to get into FCS stuff other than to say that UPI’s Martin Sieff seems like a sharp guy and writes well. But I find little credibility in an argument that failed WWI comms(part 2 of his article) are why the FCS network will never work. Gee why don’t we all go back to the telegraph…oh wait they might hack that too. In another article he was comparing British rule of Iraq between 1918 and 1933 to explain why the Iraqis would never come around today. Maybe they won’t but bet today’s Iraqis are a whole lot different than those of 90 years ago.
Sieff has a 1972 Masters degree from Oxford in Modern History. Don’t see how that makes him an expert in the military or computers. Very few folks, to include me, understand the SOSCOE operating system…but think Windows for the military and be glad it is Linux-based for future enhancements and plug and play upgrades of future systems and software. If it was Windows-based I would really worry about hackers!!
Besides, the software is “only” $6 billion of the total, and is 1/3 finished..it will have some problems no doubt and they will be fixed. It’s mcuh easier to integrate and fix some aspect of one single operating system architecture than the software of 14 different manufacturers going 14 different directions with independently developed combat systems.
Cole,
It seems to me that the Chinese have a type of inferiority complex.They have almost made a vast majority of animals on this planet extinct just so that they can make an aphrodisiac to get it up & yet they(the nation of Red China) make up the vast majority of people alone on this earth.Through the combination of foolish population control policies & the fact that their people only want males,they have the problem of having about 100 males for every female.I’m sure that not all of those males want to be gay,so China has to figure out a way to supply women to all of those males.That can only come through conquest.They damn well know that they cannot defeat us militarily,so they use the economy to defeat us.They use the students that they send to our nation to learn our technology & bring it back home to China.They also have no problem whatsoever with sacrificing a large number of their own people in war if it achieves victory(& also helps to bring more balance to the male-female ratio).The Chinese are wise enough to know that they cannot take us head on,but they are developing the asymmetrical means to defeat us.They will use our arrogance against us.
We should always train to expect the worse in our enemies.That means learning how to dogfight,period.To arrogantly say that it is unnecessary invites defeat.We are too proud & arrogant as a people to see this.We are too busy bragging & boasting about how great we are & the other nations are laughing at us behind our backs & will laugh at loud if we get our butts beat.Everybody loves to see the bully & braggart go down.
We(the U.S.) are nothing but a bunch of “preening gasbags.”
I was just reading on military.com that the military is asking for $20B to increase the size of the Army/Marines by 20,000. That amount of money would also purchase the additional number of F-22s the Air Force wants.
Let’s hear a rebuttal Cole.
DC2
awesome video. Watching a fighter float around like that while a simple heat-seeking missile homed in on it would be kinda cool.
Sorry. Don’t believe there is an air threat out there. The dogfighting days ended a long time ago.