Hey, folks, greetings from O’Hare airport. My connecting flight to Kansas City is delayed a couple of hours (I discovered after running from one terminal to the other like OJ back in the old Hertz commercials), so I have a little time on my hands here.
Here’s an item Military.com reported on a few days back that I thought would be worthy of a discussion among the DT clan. Our man Eric Daniel relays that it’s important to note that the Soldier killed was seated in the most vulnerable position in the MRAP and that an IED that size would’ve taken out everyone in a Humvee. Also, it’s unclear if the gunner died from the blast or the MRAP’s subsequent roll. But, still, this casualty is a surprise since most considered the MRAP to be IED-proof altogether.
Here’s a bit of the report:
A Soldier killed over the weekend south of Baghdad was the first American casualty in a roadside bomb attack on a newly introduced, heavily armored vehicle, a military spokeswoman said Jan. 22.
The V-shaped hull of the huge MRAP — Mine-Resistant, Ambush-Protected — truck is designed to deflect blasts from roadside bombs, a weapon that has killed more American Soldiers than any other tactic used by Sunni insurgents and militia fighters in Iraq.
The Soldier who died Jan. 19 was the gunner who sits atop the MRAP vehicle. Three crew members tucked inside the cabin were wounded. The vehicle rolled over after the blast and it was not clear how the gunner died — from wounds in the explosion or in the subsequent roll-over.
Maj. Alayne P. Conway, deputy spokeswoman for the 3rd Infantry Division, said the attack and the death were under investigation.
There now are more than 1,500 of the costly vehicles in service in Iraq and the Pentagon is working to get at least 12,000 more, using $21 billion provided by Congress. MRAPs cost between $500,000 and $1 million, depending on their size and how they are equipped.
The cycle of war continues …
– Ward
{ 18 comments… read them below or add one }
It defies common sense to think that you can build something that is totally explosion-proof. It depends on the size of the explosion obviously. The MRAPs are designed to a certain specific level of threat.
Also, it was not the first MRAP fatality. Sorry I don’t have a link handy for the earlier fatalities.
Hank is right on target.
I have not seen a single military or manufacturing source claim that a Mine RESISTANT vehicle is IED proof.
That sort of thing seems to be reserved for our armchair warriors.
There have been some IEDs in Iraq big enough to take out an Abrahms tank reported at this very blog much earlier in this war. Nothing is invincible. Lots of the MRAP pitch talks about incidents that will kill a vehicle and spare the crew, and I’ve yet to see a 100% safety for crew claim in any MRAP pitch.
More armor leads to increased firepower directed at it. Everything has its breaking point.
I remember reading about some Canadian soldiers who were killed in an MRAP by an IED in Afghanistan.Also I remember reading about how the Palestinians blew up a Merkava Tank to kingdom come with a huge roadside bomb.Also,I thought that the MRAPs could employ the CROWS system.If that MRAP that the gunner was on had a CROWS system,he’d most likely be alive today.It was more than likely a fluke that he was killed.
> most considered the MRAP to be IED-proof altogether
only the ignorant
Why did the military spend so much on this MRAP and then skimp on the CROWS remote weapon station? It seems that this gunner wouldn’t have been killed if he’d been IN the MRAP with the others rather than ON it in the gun-ring. If you ask me the MRAP did its job brilliantly, it’s the weapon station that failed.
The fact that this MRAP ran over 300 plus pounds of HE and the hull was not compromised tells me everything I need to know about protection levels.
To my knowledge MRAPs are not tested against such high explosives because they are not too common. Although on occasion, the large ones in Iraq have destroyed M1s/Bradleys, and obliterated Hummers. Most IEDs are less than 50 pounds of HE. A major problem for a Hummer, but not an MRAP, especially for underbelly detonations.
MRAPs are probably safer than M1′s, Bradleys, Hummers, and Strykers, when it comes to large underbelly IEDs. EFP and RPG, a different story, for now.
I have never heard which MRAP design was involved, but the pictures I saw appeared to be Cougar. Media keeps showing MaxxPro.
There have been 3 other fatalities in the MRAPs, not including the light weight RG31s. They were EFPs or unbelted during the explosion.
I would suspect, the insurgents will switch tactics for more IED attacks on dismounted infantry, since trying to blow up a MRAP is no longer worth it, ie bodybags.
A lighter weight, more off road capable JLTV might be worth the trade off. I hear the RG33 has the best off capability for all the MRAPs.
Warhead versus armor. Warhead always wins.
Far as I am concerned 1 million is a good investment to save joe snuffy’s wife, or mother from getting a crisply folded american flag with 21 expended brass in it as a gift from a greteful nation.
This whole war makes me want to puke. All the politics aside, it just seems like such a waste. 2 billion a week for 5 years. How many schools, hospitals, roads, or welfare checks for crack heads could that money have bought?
we need reactive armor undersides.
Every armor can be defeated but at a certain point defeating it requires special expertise, special devices or extreme amounts of high explosives which may not be available to the insurgency in quantity.
“we need reactive armor undersides”
Bet you’d get some serious air with that.
Ward, I bet the title is confusing (“Fatality of MRAP possibly by rollover” would make more sense). It’s still not clear rather the death was caused by roll over. The crew room was not compromised, so I guess it’s resulted by the roll over. MRAP can resists large amount of explosion without the armor penetrated, but there is not much to stop the MRAP from flying upward by the explosion. When it makes a touch down, it could roll and do harm the crews, no different from accidents. I’ll bet if the Chavis Turret was applied, or RWS installed, the death could have been avoided.
I thought about the Chavis Turret,but could it withstand the weight of the vehicle if the vehicle’s flipped over? Will it not be crushed by the weight,especially if the Ceradyne Bull is deployed & is using the Chavis Turret?
Could a turret system like this help?
http://www.defense-update.com/events/2005/summary/LIC-protect-2.htm
If the gunner could remain completely inside while firing…..
Christian Lowe is costing the US more soldiers and lives by trying to limit the amount of MRAPs. This entire web site is filled with anti-MRAP reporting. But the insurgents will just switch tactics and turn to car bombs in response to the troop surge. And then the casualties will increase 10 fold without the MRAPs. Good luck to anyone believing the judgment and experience of this reporter.
As heavy wheeled trucks like MRAP encounter problems off-road, the obvious solution is a heavy APC like the Israeli Achzarit but with a V-hull.
A mixed force would allow the tracks to recover MRAPs and other trucks.
IED-proofing M113s won’t happen because it won’t sell new vehicles.
An MRAP cannot be towed by another MRAP, you have to call Regiment and get the engineers out with a wrecker to tow it once stuck.
Not true. I’ve recovered stuck MRAPs with other MRAPs and Strykers. If you do a image.google.com search for stuck MRAP you see one being recovered by two Strykers.
The problem with them isn’t a lack of power, its a lack of proper towing gear. The tow straps that come with the MRAP aren’t rated to those kinds of weights, but the cables on the Stykers and the Bradley tow bars are. So you just ditch the two straps and raid your local motorpool…