Comments on: What is a Combat Handgun? http://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/ The Future of the Military, Law Enforcement and National Security Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:47:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: William C.http://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-251186 William C. Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:30:19 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-251186 The Mk.23 series? Was the weight and size of the thing problematic? The Mk.23 seems unpopular for that reason. But there are already more compact versions of the design in the form of the USP series and HK45. I'm a bit biased towards H&K handguns, but I honestly think a version of the HK45 would do very well as a standard combat pistol across all of the services. Yet Colt and other companies certainly have good competing designs as well. If only the DoD could run a competition and choose the best. Yet these programs are so politicized that's impossible. Small arms procurement is in a sorry state of affairs. The Mk.23 series? Was the weight and size of the thing problematic?

The Mk.23 seems unpopular for that reason. But there are already more compact versions of the design in the form of the USP series and HK45.

I’m a bit biased towards H&K handguns, but I honestly think a version of the HK45 would do very well as a standard combat pistol across all of the services. Yet Colt and other companies certainly have good competing designs as well.

If only the DoD could run a competition and choose the best. Yet these programs are so politicized that’s impossible. Small arms procurement is in a sorry state of affairs.

]]> By: Vinniehttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-251185 Vinnie Sun, 11 Dec 2011 07:14:15 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-251185 My Team, SF in Iraq in 2006 had 8 SOCOM .45 pistols and 8 of us did carry them during our entire time in Iraq. So I would not say that SOF only carried M9s. My Team, SF in Iraq in 2006 had 8 SOCOM .45 pistols and 8 of us did carry them during our entire time in Iraq. So I would not say that SOF only carried M9s.

]]> By: Jimbohttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-195462 Jimbo Sat, 06 Mar 2010 08:00:07 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-195462 First we need a new cartridge, 30x25US.The gun should be similar to the G20 C.ported,with a 5" match grade barrel designed for high volume high velocity loads,for a load give it APi rounds to burn through body armor.Velocity should be around 1900FPS.Grip surface should be rough,trigger guard big enough for gloves,second strike capability,with HIGH visibility sights,The gun should be matte black,tennifer coated.It should be able to better glock torture tests.Give it a small muzzle flash hider and smooth out surfaces to keep it from catching on gear. Smith and Wesson could put it together if they applied themselves.The M&P is pretty good,might have to be beefed up to handle that badass cartridge.Let's get out of NATO and make our own guns and our own calibers. Norma made the 10mm, Sig the 357 sig,The 40 was created because the FBI was too recoil sensitive.It's time to dominate with a new US cartridge,keep in mind the 9mm is a NAZI cartridge and they lost the war. First we need a new cartridge, 30x25US.The gun should be similar to the G20 C.ported,with a 5″ match grade barrel designed for high volume high velocity loads,for a load give it APi rounds to burn through body armor.Velocity should be around 1900FPS.Grip surface should be rough,trigger guard big enough for gloves,second strike capability,with HIGH visibility sights,The gun should be matte black,tennifer coated.It should be able to better glock torture tests.Give it a small muzzle flash hider and smooth out surfaces to keep it from catching on gear. Smith and Wesson could put it together if they applied themselves.The M&P is pretty good,might have to be beefed up to handle that badass cartridge.Let’s get out of NATO and make our own guns and our own calibers. Norma made the 10mm, Sig the 357 sig,The 40 was created because the FBI was too recoil sensitive.It’s time to dominate with a new US cartridge,keep in mind the 9mm is a NAZI cartridge and they lost the war.

]]> By: Joehttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-174571 Joe Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:17:28 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-174571 >40 S&W..... the FBI has done EXTENSIVE testing and chosen the .40 to issue to it's agents. I believe it to be the best cartridge-all things considered. It is the right balance of power, controlibility and capacity. It's popilarity with law enforcement has elevated ammunition availibilty to comparable levels with the 9mm and.45. As far as which handgun should replace the M9, the M&P has demonstrated itself the be reliable and accurate. it has interchangeable grip sizes to accomodate different shooters and it is American made(which still means something to me). next choices would be Glock or XD. Most law enforcement agencies around the country either have or are moving toward DAO or striker fired pistols due to simplicity and ease of training. . >40 S&W.…. the FBI has done EXTENSIVE testing and chosen the .40 to issue to it’s agents. I believe it to be the best cartridge-all things considered. It is the right balance of power, controlibility and capacity. It’s popilarity with law enforcement has elevated ammunition availibilty to comparable levels with the 9mm and.45. As far as which handgun should replace the M9, the M&P has demonstrated itself the be reliable and accurate. it has interchangeable grip sizes to accomodate different shooters and it is American made(which still means something to me). next choices would be Glock or XD. Most law enforcement agencies around the country either have or are moving toward DAO or striker fired pistols due to simplicity and ease of training.
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]]> By: danielhttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-174570 daniel Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:46:11 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-174570 with regards to stopping power..that thing about the 45 having knockdown power is all bull. if somebody hits you between the eyes even a 25 acp will send you down. it is placement. don't you notice that people who side with the 45 always quote somebody else about some story about somebody dancing after being hit by a dozen 9's? in ww2 the germans used the 9 and did very well by it. I notice that most of the participants in this discussion group has not had any combat experience always relying on he said/she said stories about the effectiveness of the 45. If you want to evaluate the 45 vs 9 then to be objective you must use both calibers on the same person and hit him in the same place and then ask him which hit harder. sarcasm aside there are other things to consider one is that the proliferation of body armour has made the 45 totally useless, even ++p with armour piercing heads do not work (you need a high velocity to penetrate armour and the big frontal area of the 45 does not help) the 9 though with armour piercing slugs cn go right thru the standard gi helmet that is currently being used the 45 even ++p loads with armour piercing heads cannot. i am not a fan of either round i prefer the 10mm. if you are such a big follower of this knockdown thing i suggest you get a casull 454 or a 500 sw magnum or a 460 sw mag........ with regards to stopping power..that thing about the 45 having knockdown power is all bull. if somebody hits you between the eyes even a 25 acp will send you down. it is placement. don’t you notice that people who side with the 45 always quote somebody else about some story about somebody dancing after being hit by a dozen 9’s? in ww2 the germans used the 9 and did very well by it. I notice that most of the participants in this discussion group has not had any combat experience always relying on he said/she said stories about the effectiveness of the 45. If you want to evaluate the 45 vs 9 then to be objective you must use both calibers on the same person and hit him in the same place and then ask him which hit harder. sarcasm aside there are other things to consider one is that the proliferation of body armour has made the 45 totally useless, even ++p with armour piercing heads do not work (you need a high velocity to penetrate armour and the big frontal area of the 45 does not help) the 9 though with armour piercing slugs cn go right thru the standard gi helmet that is currently being used the 45 even ++p loads with armour piercing heads cannot. i am not a fan of either round i prefer the 10mm. if you are such a big follower of this knockdown thing i suggest you get a casull 454 or a 500 sw magnum or a 460 sw mag.….…

]]> By: Mikehttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-174569 Mike Sat, 27 Dec 2008 03:58:09 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-174569 For crying out loud, the idea of a side arm is a secondary weapon. Not the do all, end all. By the time a tanker, a marine or a SOF type are down to a handgun, that trooper is combat ineffective. It becomes a fight and flight situation. Keep that in mind, and make it the simplest and easiest to maintain system with all the punch you might need. My money, the Glock 17. High capacity, light weight and durable as hell itself. As for the 9mm vs .45 ACP debate, I used a Browning High Power in bowling pin mathches, and consistently cleared the table. Shot placement is a preachers point here, but then again, the pins were not shooting back. I stand by the Glock. For crying out loud, the idea of a side arm is a secondary weapon. Not the do all, end all. By the time a tanker, a marine or a SOF type are down to a handgun, that trooper is combat ineffective. It becomes a fight and flight situation. Keep that in mind, and make it the simplest and easiest to maintain system with all the punch you might need. My money, the Glock 17. High capacity, light weight and durable as hell itself. As for the 9mm vs .45 ACP debate, I used a Browning High Power in bowling pin mathches, and consistently cleared the table. Shot placement is a preachers point here, but then again, the pins were not shooting back.
I stand by the Glock.

]]> By: Pistolhttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-174568 Pistol Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:09:33 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-174568 Interesting debate about pistols. In the Danish Army we use an 1949 SIG P210 (Neuhausen) - a nice piece but after almost 60 years in service, not suited for todays combat missions. Our Army PSD and Special Operations Forces uses HK USP Tactical 9 mm - and .45 will properbly never enter service in DK Armed Forces. Interesting debate about pistols. In the Danish Army we use an 1949 SIG P210 (Neuhausen) — a nice piece but after almost 60 years in service, not suited for todays combat missions.
Our Army PSD and Special Operations Forces uses HK USP Tactical 9 mm — and .45 will properbly never enter service in DK Armed Forces.

]]> By: BrokenArrowhttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-174566 BrokenArrow Fri, 09 May 2008 14:21:32 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-174566 I was issued the M15(38), M1911A1, M9 and M11. Saw special folks argue over who had to carry the MK23. Here we go again... SOF-CP and FHS merged into JCP, then unmerged back to CP, that got indefinitely postponed... the AFH/Air Force Handgun got shot down... the AFFH/Air Force Future Handgun got shot down... now we have the Modular Handgun System. May go nowhere too, but may give us an idea where they want to go. Eventually. That being compact and full size guns w manual safety to start: Capacity, caliber, action TBD. 10--Modular Handgun System Solicitation Number: W52H0928APR08MHS Agency: Department of the Army Office: U. S. Army Materiel Command Location: U.S. Army TACOM Life Cycle Management Command - Rock Island The Program Manager for Soldier Weapons (PM-SW) , on behalf of the US Air Force, has a requirement for a nondevelopmental handgun. This effort will be conducted in three phases consisting of a Competitive Down-selection Phase, System Development & Demonstration (SDD) Phase, and a Full Rate Production (FRP) Phase. This Sources Sought Notice does not reflect a complete listing of all requirements for a Modular Handgun System. One size does not fit all, and one handgun does not fit all missions. What the operators need is not what most of the rest of the military who carry pistols need. Law enforcement, security, investigators, pilots, armor/aircrew, etc are served just fine w the same kind of compact pistols that cruise the waves w the Coast Guard (P229) or ride the border w CBP (P2000). They have 40/357/45 and/or bigger tactical versions too for those w special needs who seem to need something smaller, lighter, and/or more ergonomic than the 45 they already have (MK23 MOD 0). Govt/Commander 1911s w ambi safety and rail could work too, but little chance of going there again. I was issued the M15(38), M1911A1, M9 and M11. Saw special folks argue over who had to carry the MK23.
Here we go again…
SOF-CP and FHS merged into JCP, then unmerged back to CP, that got indefinitely postponed… the AFH/Air Force Handgun got shot down… the
AFFH/Air Force Future Handgun got shot down… now we have the Modular Handgun System. May go nowhere too, but may give us an idea where they want to go. Eventually. That being compact and full size guns w manual safety to start: Capacity, caliber, action TBD.
10–Modular Handgun System
Solicitation Number: W52H0928APR08MHS
Agency: Department of the Army
Office: U. S. Army Materiel Command
Location: U.S. Army TACOM Life Cycle Management Command — Rock Island
The Program Manager for Soldier Weapons (PM-SW) , on behalf of the US Air Force, has a requirement for a nondevelopmental handgun. This effort will be conducted in three phases consisting of a Competitive Down-selection Phase, System Development & Demonstration (SDD) Phase, and a Full Rate Production (FRP) Phase. This Sources Sought Notice does not reflect a complete listing of all requirements for a Modular Handgun System.
One size does not fit all, and one handgun does not fit all missions. What the operators need is not what most of the rest of the military who carry pistols need. Law enforcement, security, investigators, pilots, armor/aircrew, etc are served just fine w the same kind of compact pistols that cruise the waves w the Coast Guard (P229) or ride the border w CBP (P2000). They have 40/357/45 and/or bigger tactical versions too for those w special needs who seem to need something smaller, lighter, and/or more ergonomic than the 45 they already have (MK23 MOD 0).
Govt/Commander 1911s w ambi safety and rail could work too, but little chance of going there again.

]]> By: markhttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-174565 mark Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:37:30 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-174565 I own and love the 1911 45acp, but I wont even go there.I will however just say that,a glock,a sig,a colt or what ever they decide,just put the dam 45acp back in the service where it belongs.Unless the army switches to hollow points,the 9mm just don't work,PERIOD. I own and love the 1911 45acp, but I wont even go there.I will however just say that,a glock,a sig,a colt or what ever they decide,just put the dam 45acp back in the service where it belongs.Unless the army switches to hollow points,the 9mm just don’t work,PERIOD.

]]> By: AreaManhttp://defensetech.org/2008/02/08/what-is-a-combat-handgun/#comment-174564 AreaMan Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:53:30 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3830#comment-174564 I believe that the human component is the key to this issue. Training, training and more training. Proficiency with the weapon is more important. The Germans almost took over the world with bolt action Mausers. The Royal Marines' "Mad Minute" drill with their Enfields were brutally effective. As for the 9mm vs .45? The ammo is key. I can find enough anecdotal accounts of people not going down even after multiple hits with a .45ACP. I refer to a posting from this website: http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003530.html#comments "...So when I shot 9mm and 45cal. rounds through each, I was pleasantly surprised to find that although the rounds did penetrate the glass, the expanded as advertised. Having my caliper in back pocket told me that the 9mm expanded to .51 inches and the 45 cal. to .64 inches (all rounds being caught by foam and soft rubber) those numbers are an average for multiple shots on glass. The 9mm in my opinion in straight up head to head performance came out ahead of the .45, I I believe that the human component is the key to this issue. Training, training and more training. Proficiency with the weapon is more important.
The Germans almost took over the world with bolt action Mausers. The Royal Marines’ “Mad Minute” drill with their Enfields were brutally effective.
As for the 9mm vs .45? The ammo is key. I can find enough anecdotal accounts of people not going down even after multiple hits with a .45ACP.
I refer to a posting from this website:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003530.html#comments
”…So when I shot 9mm and 45cal. rounds through each, I was pleasantly surprised to find that although the rounds did penetrate the glass, the expanded as advertised. Having my caliper in back pocket told me that the 9mm expanded to .51 inches and the 45 cal. to .64 inches (all rounds being caught by foam and soft rubber) those numbers are an average for multiple shots on glass. The 9mm in my opinion in straight up head to head performance came out ahead of the .45, I

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