Comments on: More on the Air Force “Star Wars” Over F-22 http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/ The Future of the Military, Law Enforcement and National Security Fri, 25 May 2012 23:29:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: guest poster http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-225157 guest poster Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:04:34 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-225157 With so many corrupt, incompetent politicians working overtime in Washington D.C. on behalf Wall St. crooks against the well-being of the general public and the country, it's amazing that so many dumb Americans (left or right, victims of propaganda machines controlled by the establishment) still think that there is some dumb enemy out there who would waste money, time and effort to interrupt what the corrupt, incompetent American politicians have been doing so successfully. The U.S. is going down the toilet as we speak. Thanks to half-brained voters in a so-called "democracy" (as if), other countries wouldn't even be able to stop it if they wanted to. Get real!!! With so many corrupt, incompetent politicians working overtime in Washington D.C. on behalf Wall St. crooks against the well-being of the general public and the country, it’s amazing that so many dumb Americans (left or right, victims of propaganda machines controlled by the establishment) still think that there is some dumb enemy out there who would waste money, time and effort to interrupt what the corrupt, incompetent American politicians have been doing so successfully.

The U.S. is going down the toilet as we speak. Thanks to half-brained voters in a so-called “democracy” (as if), other countries wouldn’t even be able to stop it if they wanted to.

Get real!!!

]]> By: D http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-69995 D Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:15:19 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-69995 I think that the 381 number(For F22) is the correct number. 381 is a min.# The Navy also must order some next generation Super Hornets while decommissioning old legacy Hornets. The new Super Hornets will fill the void until JSF starts being delivered in numbers. I think that the 381 number(For F22) is the correct number. 381 is a min.# The Navy also must order some next generation Super Hornets while decommissioning old legacy Hornets. The new Super Hornets will fill the void until JSF starts being delivered in numbers.

]]> By: Cole http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-175128 Cole Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:32:22 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-175128 pfcem utters his normal refrain: DarthAmerica, are you (like Cole) completely unable to see reality? 1960 Price Reality: House: $16,500 Car: $2,600 Gallon of gas: 31 cents Gallon of milk: 49 cents F-4 Phantom: $2 million Multiply all of the above by a factor of 10 for today's median prices means we should be able to pick up a new fighter for about $20 million, correct there little buddy. Apparently not. Now lets look at other trends: 1380 B-47 744 B-52 100 B-1 21, oh wait, 20 B-2 Do you see a clear trend? Are we heading for negative balances in Air Force aircraft procurement? Or could it be that in actuality, 20 B-2 are more than sufficient for the threat as are 200 or so F-22s? Get with it dude. The USAF can't have its quality cake and large numbers too. Choosing outlandish pricepoints obligates you to live with fewer numbers. Otherwise the exponential budget bite starts to eat into other services. I might add that many F-15Cs can easily last until 2025 and 12,000 hoursy then we will have ample F-22s and F-35...all that's required for the threat. You can continue to question other's concept of reality or you and the USAF can do a little self-examination. pfcem utters his normal refrain: DarthAmerica, are you (like Cole) completely unable to see reality?
1960 Price Reality:
House: $16,500
Car: $2,600
Gallon of gas: 31 cents
Gallon of milk: 49 cents
F-4 Phantom: $2 million
Multiply all of the above by a factor of 10 for today’s median prices means we should be able to pick up a new fighter for about $20 million, correct there little buddy.
Apparently not.
Now lets look at other trends:
1380 B-47
744 B-52
100 B-1
21, oh wait, 20 B-2
Do you see a clear trend? Are we heading for negative balances in Air Force aircraft procurement?
Or could it be that in actuality, 20 B-2 are more than sufficient for the threat as are 200 or so F-22s?
Get with it dude. The USAF can’t have its quality cake and large numbers too. Choosing outlandish pricepoints obligates you to live with fewer numbers. Otherwise the exponential budget bite starts to eat into other services.
I might add that many F-15Cs can easily last until 2025 and 12,000 hoursy then we will have ample F-22s and F-35…all that’s required for the threat.
You can continue to question other’s concept of reality or you and the USAF can do a little self-examination.

]]> By: pfcem http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-175127 pfcem Tue, 26 Feb 2008 01:06:50 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-175127 DarthAmerica, are you (like Cole) completely unable to see reality? Between the USAF & the ANG we currently have over 500 F-15A-D (~440 + ~125 respectively). ALL of which are currently past their originally intended 4,000 flight hour life & MANY are quickly (more quickly than originally forcast) reaching 8,000 flight hour (IIRC estimates put most of the fleet over 8,000 around 2010). By some wet dream some HOPE we can keep 178 of them flying until they are/were ALL replaced by F-22 ~2025 by SOMEHOW extentending their life to 12,000 flight hours. The 178 "Golden Eagles" are/were intended to extend the life of the F-15 (in order to maintain the required force numbers) until they could be COMPLETELY replaced by 381 F-22! Without 381 F-22 you not only need to somehow keep F-15's flying longer (not just a little longer but 4 TIMES longer than they were built to & TWICE as long as most are even now intended to) but MORE of them flying. In reality there are only 2 options. Either get 381 F-22 by ~2025 (@ 20/year we would get them ~2022) or start designing the NEXT GERERATION air superiority fighter (which will undoubtably be even more expensive than the F-22) NOW in the hope that it will be ready for full scale production by ~2025. Who knows how long it will be until the ENTIRE F-15A-D fleet is grouned again, how many will then NEVER return to service & how expensive the "fix" (which will undoubtably be temparary until the NEXT problem to ground the fleet yet AGAIN) will be... DarthAmerica, are you (like Cole) completely unable to see reality?
Between the USAF & the ANG we currently have over 500 F-15A-D (~440 + ~125 respectively). ALL of which are currently past their originally intended 4,000 flight hour life & MANY are quickly (more quickly than originally forcast) reaching 8,000 flight hour (IIRC estimates put most of the fleet over 8,000 around 2010). By some wet dream some HOPE we can keep 178 of them flying until they are/were ALL replaced by F-22 ~2025 by SOMEHOW extentending their life to 12,000 flight hours.
The 178 “Golden Eagles” are/were intended to extend the life of the F-15 (in order to maintain the required force numbers) until they could be COMPLETELY replaced by 381 F-22!
Without 381 F-22 you not only need to somehow keep F-15’s flying longer (not just a little longer but 4 TIMES longer than they were built to & TWICE as long as most are even now intended to) but MORE of them flying.
In reality there are only 2 options. Either get 381 F-22 by ~2025 (@ 20/year we would get them ~2022) or start designing the NEXT GERERATION air superiority fighter (which will undoubtably be even more expensive than the F-22) NOW in the hope that it will be ready for full scale production by ~2025.
Who knows how long it will be until the ENTIRE F-15A-D fleet is grouned again, how many will then NEVER return to service & how expensive the “fix” (which will undoubtably be temparary until the NEXT problem to ground the fleet yet AGAIN) will be…

]]> By: NTV http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-175120 NTV Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:07:22 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-175120 DA Yes, the US Navy is a mighty force, but China understands that a will plan accordingly. Will the US Navy be able to cut the amount of oil imported? Yes, Will that be able to cut imports enough? Thats a little harder to determine. China is improving their Navy so as to better control their SLOC's ANd here again time and distance are our enemies. How long will it take the US to get enough naval forces to the region th implament a blockade? Further what international pressure will we face for sinking unarmed merchant ships? Lastly, what about the new oil pipelins into China, and also one that may be built from Russia. The US Navy will have a hard time getting at those. DA
Yes, the US Navy is a mighty force, but China understands that a will plan accordingly. Will the US Navy be able to cut the amount of oil imported? Yes, Will that be able to cut imports enough? Thats a little harder to determine. China is improving their Navy so as to better control their SLOC’s ANd here again time and distance are our enemies. How long will it take the US to get enough naval forces to the region th implament a blockade? Further what international pressure will we face for sinking unarmed merchant ships?
Lastly, what about the new oil pipelins into China, and also one that may be built from Russia. The US Navy will have a hard time getting at those.

]]> By: pfcem http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-175119 pfcem Sun, 24 Feb 2008 05:15:47 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-175119 Cole, The rotation is for 10 AEF & the requirement for 10 squadrons of F-22 is so than each AEF has one F-22 squadron. Like I said, if the AEF that is "up" on the schedule then you have NO F-22 as part of the AEF for two weeks. The USAF originally wanted 750 F-22, 381 is the MINIMUM they require do to what they are asked to do on a day-to-day basis - they would LIKE to have at least 1.5 suardons per AEF. The USAF has already been cut to the bone & you just want to make it smaller & work each airframe/squadron even harder. Cole,
The rotation is for 10 AEF & the requirement for 10 squadrons of F-22 is so than each AEF has one F-22 squadron. Like I said, if the AEF that is “up” on the schedule then you have NO F-22 as part of the AEF for two weeks.
The USAF originally wanted 750 F-22, 381 is the MINIMUM they require do to what they are asked to do on a day-to-day basis — they would LIKE to have at least 1.5 suardons per AEF.
The USAF has already been cut to the bone & you just want to make it smaller & work each airframe/squadron even harder.

]]> By: Vercingetorix http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-175116 Vercingetorix Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:45:57 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-175116 DA, You're just wrong, chief. Of course, air superiority over China is necessary. Deal with it. DA,
You’re just wrong, chief. Of course, air superiority over China is necessary. Deal with it.

]]> By: pfcem http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-175113 pfcem Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:28:41 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-175113 Cole, I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DETERRING CHINA! In fact I said the USAF requirement for 381 has NOTHING TO DO WITH DETERRING CHINA. The only relevance China has to the 381 requirent is that it is ONE of the several hot-spots around the world where the USAF may be expected to obtain & maintain total air dominance. OBVIOUSLY with the size of China's air force & SAM network more than 1 AEF would be required to do that. From the link you posted... "In plain language, the Air Force has taken their combat wings (Active Duty, Reserves, and National Guard), and assigned them to one of ten AEFs. For example, AEF #1 might be composed of F-15 or F-16 flying squadrons and maintenance/support squadrons from multiple bases throughout the United States (both active and reserve). When it's time for that AEF to deploy, personnel from all of these different squadrons, located at different bases, will all deploy as one large organization. Everyone knows in advance when their particular AEF deployment "window" is, based on what AEF their Wing (base) has been assigned to be part of. If a deployment is required within that window, they know that the AEF they are assigned to are going to be the ones that go. This eliminates much of the "no-notice" deployments of the past." It could hardly have been stated more clearly, the 10 AEF are on a rotating cycle. The idea is for all AEF to be as close to equal as possible with requard to overall capabilities so that it does not matter which AEF up "up" on the schedule when called on to deploy (whether that be part of "normal peacetime" deployments or a sudden "emergency"). The last quote from the second page of the link ALSO illustrates what I've been arguing all along. An AEF is able to deploy in 48 hours with ADDITIONAL AEF able to deploy in 15 days. So if the AEF "up" on the schedule is one of those without F-22s (or whose F-22 squadron is down for whatever reason), you won't have ANY F-22s in theater for ~2 weeks until ANOTHER AEF arrives. Again, the requirement for 381 F-22 is based on the need for AT LEAST 1 squadron of F-22 for each AEF & NOTHING to do with the number of F-22 required for any ONE specific campaign. Cole, I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DETERRING CHINA!
In fact I said the USAF requirement for 381 has NOTHING TO DO WITH DETERRING CHINA. The only relevance China has to the 381 requirent is that it is ONE of the several hot-spots around the world where the USAF may be expected to obtain & maintain total air dominance. OBVIOUSLY with the size of China’s air force & SAM network more than 1 AEF would be required to do that.
From the link you posted…
“In plain language, the Air Force has taken their combat wings (Active Duty, Reserves, and National Guard), and assigned them to one of ten AEFs. For example, AEF #1 might be composed of F-15 or F-16 flying squadrons and maintenance/support squadrons from multiple bases throughout the United States (both active and reserve). When it’s time for that AEF to deploy, personnel from all of these different squadrons, located at different bases, will all deploy as one large organization. Everyone knows in advance when their particular AEF deployment “window” is, based on what AEF their Wing (base) has been assigned to be part of. If a deployment is required within that window, they know that the AEF they are assigned to are going to be the ones that go. This eliminates much of the “no-notice” deployments of the past.“
It could hardly have been stated more clearly, the 10 AEF are on a rotating cycle. The idea is for all AEF to be as close to equal as possible with requard to overall capabilities so that it does not matter which AEF up “up” on the schedule when called on to deploy (whether that be part of “normal peacetime” deployments or a sudden “emergency”).
The last quote from the second page of the link ALSO illustrates what I’ve been arguing all along. An AEF is able to deploy in 48 hours with ADDITIONAL AEF able to deploy in 15 days. So if the AEF “up” on the schedule is one of those without F-22s (or whose F-22 squadron is down for whatever reason), you won’t have ANY F-22s in theater for ~2 weeks until ANOTHER AEF arrives.
Again, the requirement for 381 F-22 is based on the need for AT LEAST 1 squadron of F-22 for each AEF & NOTHING to do with the number of F-22 required for any ONE specific campaign.

]]> By: Roy Smith http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-175111 Roy Smith Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:13:36 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-175111 I may have misunderstood anything said about Indonesia,but I do know that their armed forces is so disorganized,that they are not a threat at all to Australia,which has a population a fraction the size as Indonesia. Anyway,we're 1 short a B-2 Stealth Bomber today,since one of the very few we have crashed in Guam today.Maybe,just maybe,it wasn't hurt enough that they can rebuild it,if we have the technology & industrial capability to do it.If however,it's reduced to powder,then never mind. Anyway,Russia is threatening an armed response to the Kosovo argument.While they have their balls handed back to them if they do attack(who though,who?) militarily,the threat should still be taken seriously.We're aren't talking "scripted" sneak attacks like they do on WWE wrestling or in Hollywood movies,where we all start singing patriot songs,go on war bond drives,& "MIRACULOUSLY" gear up our industries to pull ourselves out of the "jaws of defeat" & drive the foes back(even though it DOES work in the movies AND for WWE Wrestling). Kosovo,it's south of what's left of Serbia,north of Albania.It's in Europe.It's a small insignificant place in the world that can play its part in plunging us into World War III just like in Israel,the middle East(like around Basra),the Korean Peninsula,& Taiwan. What are we supposed to do if the shit hits the fan in all of these hot spots all at once,at the same time? IT CAN HAPPEN. Don't forget the massive terrorist attacks happening all over the "free world" with weapons of mass destruction occuring also at the same time. I may have misunderstood anything said about Indonesia,but I do know that their armed forces is so disorganized,that they are not a threat at all to Australia,which has a population a fraction the size as Indonesia.
Anyway,we’re 1 short a B-2 Stealth Bomber today,since one of the very few we have crashed in Guam today.Maybe,just maybe,it wasn’t hurt enough that they can rebuild it,if we have the technology & industrial capability to do it.If however,it’s reduced to powder,then never mind.
Anyway,Russia is threatening an armed response to the Kosovo argument.While they have their balls handed back to them if they do attack(who though,who?) militarily,the threat should still be taken seriously.We’re aren’t talking “scripted” sneak attacks like they do on WWE wrestling or in Hollywood movies,where we all start singing patriot songs,go on war bond drives,& “MIRACULOUSLY” gear up our industries to pull ourselves out of the “jaws of defeat” & drive the foes back(even though it DOES work in the movies AND for WWE Wrestling).
Kosovo,it’s south of what’s left of Serbia,north of Albania.It’s in Europe.It’s a small insignificant place in the world that can play its part in plunging us into World War III just like in Israel,the middle East(like around Basra),the Korean Peninsula,& Taiwan.
What are we supposed to do if the shit hits the fan in all of these hot spots all at once,at the same time? IT CAN HAPPEN. Don’t forget the massive terrorist attacks happening all over the “free world” with weapons of mass destruction occuring also at the same time.

]]> By: Cole http://defensetech.org/2008/02/18/more-on-the-air-force-star-wars-over-f-22/#comment-175110 Cole Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:46:41 +0000 http://deftech.usmilblog.com/?p=3843#comment-175110 pfcem, perhaps you can clarify. I'm still not sure how 2 AEFs deploy or on call to multiple theaters. That suggests to me that someone chooses where they will visit: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce/a/afaef.htm This last quote from the second page of the link above illustrates what I've been arguing all along. Once you surge F-22 squadrons with multiple AEFs, you can handle the worst case Chinese threat...especially when considering the other fighters in the AEFs, the permanently based squadrons in the Pacific, and the permanently based carriers in the Pacific. "An AEF will be able to deploy in 48 hours pfcem, perhaps you can clarify. I’m still not sure how 2 AEFs deploy or on call to multiple theaters. That suggests to me that someone chooses where they will visit:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce/a/afaef.htm
This last quote from the second page of the link above illustrates what I’ve been arguing all along. Once you surge F-22 squadrons with multiple AEFs, you can handle the worst case Chinese threat…especially when considering the other fighters in the AEFs, the permanently based squadrons in the Pacific, and the permanently based carriers in the Pacific.
“An AEF will be able to deploy in 48 hours

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