Here’s an item that’s actually a pretty interestinjg mystery. I was tipped off by Pinnacle Armor president Murray Neal, who sent me a link to the Soldiers for the Truth site (a huge backer of Neal’s Dragon Skin armor) where they’re looking into a hullabaloo that’s erupted over some wayward DS vests.
It seems that a couple of the 30 Level IV Dragon Skin vests Neal sent to PEO Soldier back in 2006 for that series of first article tests the Army claimed (and we agreed) failed miserably have wound up on eBay. Soldiers for the Truth reports the vests showed up in February with a list price of $3,500.
The plot thickens with a local TV station in Fresno, Calif., taking Neal’s bait and doing an in-depth report on the mysterious armor sale. They contacted none other than the Army’s “Mr. Body Armor,” Karl Masters, who says his office is being investigated over the eBay armor.
I contacted sources in PEO Soldier who clammed up, saying: “The Army, in cooperation with law enforcement agencies, is currently investigating the alleged theft of U.S. Government property and it would be inappropriate to comment on the progress of the investigation at this time.”
That’s a convenient way of saying “no comment” but I can understand, with their backs against the wall, why the Army would take a pass on throwing fuel on the fire.
I have no idea how this would have happened, but it sure is weird. The government is obligated to hold onto those items forever — and certainly it is unethical, and maybe illegal, to sell them over an online auction site. The idea that Karl Masters, who I know pretty well from years of covering this, would sell these items on eBay is pretty far fetched in my mind. I know he is the root of all evil to DS backers, but in my experience, he’s an intellect to be reckoned with, but no crook.
Could someone down the line in the Army testing chain have done something stupid like this? Surely.
I’d welcome any inside scoop our readers have on this. I’ll keep kicking over some rocks to see if I can drum up more.
(Photo: Soldiers for the Truth)
– Christian
{ 24 comments… read them below or add one }
So the military didn’t want them, and decided to pass the junk on to some hapless civie. Dragon Skin failed miserably and now the company is just bashing the Army because it didn’t choose them.
Not meaning to stir up the debate again, but I saw a rerun on TV covering the DS armor. Hadn’t seen the frag grenade test before – amazing to me that this armor failed the Army trials:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA
Rob C:
Dragon Skin failed because the stuff they use to stick it together comes apart in 110 degree+ temperatures. So it seems to be great if its fresh from the factory, but in a hot environment (like Iraq), the glue comes apart.
This really just looks like some mid-level manager somewhere got rid of the stuff. Somebody in that department probably knew what got thrown out and pulled their truck around to the dumpster to try and make some extra cash.
A quick rule of thumb, but any organization that has “Truth” or “Justice” or similar in its name usually has no relation to that in its practice.
Anyways, yawn.
Funny how many people are still willing to indulge in fact-free trashing of Dragonskin rather than demanding independent testing.
wembley, they already have tested it with a million different company’s, and it still fails to meet army standards. I dont care how many bullets it can stop, I will not wear a vest that weighs 20 pound heavier than my currently already heavy system. Dragon skin is way to heavy, and all the tv shows do is shoot it, they dont test it in heat, or soaking it in gas. So before you go defend Dragon Skin maybe you need to ask do you really want to carry 20 more pounds every wear you go.
Theft is always a problem, in industry or government. In govt it’s usually laptops, though with the military, I believe firearms and body armor have ended up on eBay. IIRC Interceptor vests were being sold on eBay at one point. The fact that these are Dragon Skin units doesn’t mean a damn thing; it’s just because they are Dragon Skin units…otherwise if they were IBVs it would be a “simple” theft.
Soldiers for the Truth is an organization and website created by [partly] Col. David Hackworth USA. The articles contained in their website offer opinions and research from some of the military’s most respected minds. Check it out, its worth the read.
As it is with all army gear what people call the best gear is really the lowest bidder who makes it. I remember going to Afghanistan and my IBA still had the so called sub standard kevlar that was recalled. One thing though sappi plates really work i know from first hand knowledge sure it’s bulky hot and heavy but so far it has kept me alive and makes a half decent sleeping mat. The army should invest more on new body armor and new FLCs (fight load carriers)than more reflective PT jackets.
“Funny how many people are still willing to indulge in fact-free trashing of Dragonskin rather than demanding independent testing.
Posted by: Wembley at February 25, 2008 04:12 PM”
Wembley, between television network News and Futureweapons “tests” which were run by the DS owners and the Army tests, I’m pretty sure the Army’s is a lot more independent.
I realize some people don’t trust the procurement system (I don’t trust them myself, especially when it comes to the M4), but at least the Army doesn’t have financial incentives to lie the way the DS people do.
Google “Micheal Yon Dragon Skin” to get a REALLY independent opinion of Dragon Skin. He is an independent journalist who spent $4000 for a Dragon Skin vest to wear in Iraq. He has (had?) it on Ebay for $1.00.
In other words, he wore it in combat situations, and found it worthless.
Im not convinced this isnt just a stunt to get people to look at the vests again
i think more testing should be done and all bans should be lifted until proven otherwise
i dont understand why they would ban any armor in the first place, isnt it personal preference
The Army might be independent but the people who work for the Army have instances of people convicted or being under indictment for taking bribes in the form of jobs after retirement from the army or money or just doing weird stuff. There was just that about the boeing tanker bribery case, and now Karl Masters is reportedly under investigation and he was “in charge,” of the dragon skin tests.
Secondly someone said they wouldn’t wear body armor that weighed more no matter how many bullets it stopped… seriously that is the BS, if you don’t care about bullet stoppages why wear body armor at all. Go back to argueing about trying to be spritely and dodgeing bullets with your added agility from not wearing body armor. But to say you don’t care how many bullets it stops added weight is just too much for you is crazy all body armor adds weight and every police officer and soldier wears it. They ALL add weight to stop so many bullets of such and such kinds… it’s just silly to suggest there isn’t any effectiveness level that would carry around because you just don’t have the cardio to be immune from a sniper bullet if the technology ever got there.
Third there is now that story at the DHB guys that provided over a 1 million interceptor body armor kits are under indictment for tax evasion and financial fraud, they supposedly did many things to try to inflate the stock price of their body armor company and cut company checks to themselves… now theoretically the army has to deal with civilians and if someone is willing to lie about inventory use company assets to save them personal money and whatever else to make themselves rich is the army wich is made up of people really immune from fraud and bribery?
Somehow I get the feeling that this is more of a emotional issue that a debate with facts. Politics has gotten into it and it will be spun in a hundred different ways just to prove some obscure nonsignificant fact. Why not give Mythbusters a set/copy of each kind of body armor and let em dress up ol buster and shoot/blast hell outta him and see which armor really doesnt work.
“but at least the Army doesn’t have financial incentives to lie the way the DS people do.”
That may be true — but there are plenty of indications that the Army testing was not as impartial as it might be. And remember, this comes after some years of bad blood between the Army and Murray Neal.
Independent testing is surely the only way this can be cleared up. If DragonSkin is genuinely inadequate, then send it back to Pinnacle to sort out the problems. If it works as claimed — start getting some now.
SGT: ” will not wear a vest that weighs 20 pound heavier than my currently already heavy system”
DragonSkin is lighter for equivalent coverage. It’s also more comfortable. What are you talking about?
Google “Micheal Yon Dragon Skin” to get a REALLY independent opinion of Dragon Skin. He is an independent journalist who spent $4000 for a Dragon Skin vest to wear in Iraq. He has (had?) it on Ebay for $1.00.
Oh really? Did he get killed before he put it on E-bay.
In other words, he wore it in combat situations, and found it worthless.
Yet after wearing it in combat, he found it worthless. Wonder why he wore it a all.
A laugh every day keeps the blues away. hahahaha
Through all this hullabaloo, why is the rift only between the Army and Pinnacle? The Army isnt the only ones in the field donning body armor….why haven’t the Marines chimed in yet? I know my Marines prefer to be as light as possible when kicking in doors and have opted to not wear any body armor at all (from reports I have read), BUT, if the armor is such an issue, why is the beef between the manufacturer and the Army only?
I noted at the time of the test that all that seemed to be avaiable was a summary. There is also a cloud about Pinnacle was not to reviel information about their vest construction. I’d like to know how the testers managed to make the disks slip. From what I saw, the way the were putting them together there was no way for that to happen. Question two, have you guys over there realy reached 160 degrees?
A retired military personal has huge stock in body armor and he said Dragonskin does work well in heat but refuses to have test done! more politics and more money for lobbiest only to fatten their own wallets. Dragonskin will stop 9 ROUNDS on one shield, while body armor stops 3 WHAT DO YOU WANT YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS TO USE IT’S YOUR MONEY DOWHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET SEN. CARL LEVIN TO DO HIS JOB
I’m just a civilian, but I’ve done my best to figure out the issues surrounding dragon skin. Basically, it looks great at a glance, but it has some problems lurking under the surface.
First off, it is significantly heavier than the current armor. This is the result of the use of small scales rather than plate. The effective thickness of the armor varies based on where you measure due to the way that the scales overlap. If the areas with the most overlap and therefore the thickest armor are just good enough, then the areas with less overlap are not good enough. In order for the places with the least overlap to be on target in terms of protection, you have to increase the thickness of the scales such that the areas with the most overlap are thicker and therefore heavier than necessary. Yes you can reduce the impact through careful design of the scales, but you cannot ever eliminate it.
Second, a lot of publicized tests of dragon skin have been less than totally honest. I say this because, first off, many of the things that dragon skin can do, can also be done by the competition. Shooting a clip of 9mm rounds into the armor looks cool, but it proves very little. The same is true even with regular 7.62×39 ball ammo. The IOTV will stop a 7.62×54 steel cored round, something I’ve never seen dragon skin claim to be able to mimic. Another consideration is the fact that the scales on the dragon skin, as worn by a standing soldier, are not oriented perpendicular to the ground as you night expect. The way they fit together demands that they be angled, kind of like shingles only more dramatic. What this means is that a test shot from directly in front of the armor is actually hitting the scales at an angle less than 90 degrees. Armor is rated based on how it performs from the weakest angle, ie a direct 90 degree hit. Dragon skin is therefore, slightly easier than advertised to penetrate from an elevated position, or with the user leaning slightly forward. I can’t say how significant a factor this is, but it exists nonetheless.
Third, dragon skin is apparently not as robust as interceptor or IOTV in extreme conditions. The material that holds the scales together is the weak point here. The integrity of the armor depends on the scales staying in the correct positions with respect to each other, and that apparently just can’t be guaranteed in certain conditions.
Regardless of weather it works or not, comes apart at high temps whatever. That still does not justify “losing it” and it showing up on Ebay. It’s a design that is outside the box and may have application elsewhere and now thanks to the “loss” may provide an advantage somewhere down the line to our enemies. Inexcusable and Pathetic. Why is it that the service member is always held to a higher standard than say DOD employees and lobbyist and politicians?
Dragon skin was tested by different agencies and fialed. It was tested previously by the Army before the last test that has created all the
controversy.
Dragon skin failed to meet the weight requirements, so it failed. While Pinnacle likes to point at shooting contests and claim foul, they actually failed the Army’s requirements for body armor as soon as it hit the scales (no pun intended). Pinnacle claimed the DS was superior in every way to Interceptor. Three things determine superiority, weight, performance and costs. DS failed to be better than Interceptor due to being overly heavy, and overly costly, and when subjected to full First Article Testing which includes ballistic tests and it failed them.
Special Ops has their own armor programs separate from the Army, with different program managers, separate budgets, and answer to the Commander of USSOCOM and not the Army. Special Ops has full time researchers that seek out new technology. Dragon Skin was announced to the market back in 1998. SOCOM and the Army have followed the progress of Dragon Skin since it was debued, and each time it was tested it failed. SOCOM has had a standing solicitation for improved body armor for 20 years. The fact that Dragon Skin has been around for 10 years now and has not been adopted by anyone should send up a big red flag to turn on your bullshit meter. It is easy to impress the uninformed, it is difficult to impress engineers, scientists, and combat experienced users. The other indicator is that if Dragon Skin was all it was cracked up to be, then every major armor manufacturer would be trying to buy Pinnacle so they could corner the market with the military and law enforcement. So Murray Neal’s conspiracy must include everyone in the government. It might just be that the real professionals who are responsible to find the best equipment for our soldiers and Special Operations operatives have tested Dragon Skin and found that it does not do what is advertised.
I am sure that if Dragon Skin was put on Ebay, that the culprit will be apprehended shortly.
yeah how weird that someone would put it up on ebay seems like just selling at a gun show or to a private collector would get just as much with so much less press or chance of getting caught
And I talked to designer that was on this forum before for scalar armor and asked about instead of glue… wich is what failed and supposedly has been fixed with new quaility control and assurances, if each “scale,” of armor was put in a pouch and sewn together intead of glued and he said it could work just would be costly to produce… it shows that cost really is a factor in getting the “best”
please this is to tell that we have receive the information and we are sorry about it what happend to the air men. and here we dont have any air plane to practice omb 2008 0003 air man.