Hard to believe, I know, but here’s a story from today’s headlines at Military.com that’s sure to get some of you all riled up:
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world, American military officials in Baghdad have begun a crash program to outfit the entire Iraqi army with M-16 rifles.
The initiative marks a sharp break for a culture steeped in the traditions of the Soviet-era M-16 is superior to the AK … it’s more durable,” said Army Col. Stephen Scott, who’s in charge of helping the Iraqi army get all the equipment it needs to outfit its forces.
“The Iraqis have embraced that … and the fact that it is U.S. manufactured and supplied. They are very big on U.S.-produced [foreign military sales] materials,” he said in an interview with military bloggers this month.
So far, the U.S. military has helped the Iraqi army purchase 43,000 rifles — a mix of full-stock M-16A2s and compact M-4 carbines. Another 50,000 rifles are currently on order, and the objective is to outfit the entire Iraqi army with 165,000 American rifles in a one-for-one replacement of the AK-47.
“Our goal is to give every Iraqi soldier an M-16A2 or an M-4,” Scott said. “And as the Iraqi army grows, we will adjust.“
Scott added the mass of AK-47s from various manufacturers floating through the Iraqi army’s inventory could cause maintenance and reliability problems. Getting both U.S. and Iraqi forces on the same page when it comes to basic weaponry is part of the argument for M-16 outfitting.
“I’m also a fan of AKs,” Scott said. “But keep in mind most of these AKs have been sitting around in bunkers or whatnot for 30 or 40 years [and] are in various stages of disrepair.”
A variety of U.S. troops, including SEALs, Marines and Soldiers — and even civilian contractors — are training Iraqis on the M-16 and M-4 throughout the country. One civilian trainer told Military.com during a brief interview in Iraq that the Iraqi soldiers are a little behind the average American trooper when it comes to learning the various parts and breakdown of the M-16, but they’re enthusiastic and quick learners on the range.
After seeing some of the firing range training himself, Scott added that he “asked the Iraqis how they liked the weapon and they said it was far superior, it was more accurate … and more reliable.”
“I think the transition is almost transparent from those older AKs,” he said.
A system that registers each rifle with the individual who receives one that uses biometric data such as thumb prints and eye scans is meant to address concerns over U.S. weapons winding up in enemy hands. A July 2007 Government Accountability Office report concluded that as many as 190,000 weapons delivered to the Iraqi army were not accounted for and could’ve wound up in terrorist caches.
That’s something Scott isn’t going to allow on his watch.
“These Iraqi soldiers know that this weapon becomes part of their person,” he said. “And they also know that they are responsible and accountable for that weapon.”
And from the looks of it, Iraqi soldiers aren’t willing to hand them over to the bad guys.
“Most of the soldiers think they will be just like the Americans, and that is making them very happy,” said Capt. Rafaat Mejal Ahmed, the Iraqi 1st Division weapons and ammunition officer, in a Marine Corps release. “They think the modern technology will make them more powerful.“
– Christian
Well good. M-16 > AK-47
i wonder how this will work out. when we worked with IP iraqi police or NP national police their weapon were filithy by US military standards. for a properly functioning 16 or m4 you have to constantly maintain it.
And what happens when they all start to lock up in the firefights because they are not cleaned properly? (Which they won’t. We can’t even get these people to use toilets…)
I am sure the military will try and hide it, but when that happens and the Iraq’s start ditching the Colts, it will become very apparent who has the better technology.….
We have the worlds best trained an equipped Army and we are still using this flawed equipment due to it “costing to much money, when new technology is coming”.
You can write that on some headstones.…
Correcttion.
“Cost to much to replace, when new technology is coming”
JFC, man. I really gotta get job somewhere in american armanent industry lobby cause that way I am gonna end up REAL rich.
Think about it. Now, if you see an Iraqi in uniform with an AK, chances are much, much greater it is someone who is unfriendly. In a firefight, you no longer have to wonder if the AK firing up ahead is friendly or foe. The M16/M4 probably has been test fired and the bullet recovered for forensics comparision if the need ever arouse.
I am okay with giving the Iraqi army brand new weapons. Give the IAF something to be proud of and eager to maintain. The Vietnam era M16 is a thing of the past. The A2 and M4 varients are good, emotions set aside. Start raising the morale and esprit-de-corps of the IAF and they will move on from some third world dictator’s thug gang to a professional cohesive and stabilizing factor in this part of the world. This is just one more step in that process.
I’m so sick of the “you have to keep the M16 clean whines”. Any soldier who doesn’t maintain his weapon at every oppurtunity, no matter the design, is a fool who deserves what happens to him.
When I was in, we only had M16A1’s, yes they had their quirks(damn piston rings on the bolt aligning), but, were mostly reliable, if you kept it reasonably clean.
I just love how the story opines the “the most enduring imprint of US influence in the Arab world” regarding a rifle. It says so much about our relationship with these folks. I’m sure it’ll leave an imprint, and quite a few holes.
This is welfare for whoever is now manufacturing the M-16 (IIRC, it’s the FN plant in South Carolina).
After my health and welfare inspection, the army deciding they can dump everything in my room on the ground including clean clothes and walking over it while they exit, this was just icing on the cake. I am deployed with a M16A2 and the fact that it says the Military is giving them M4’s as well really pisses me off. The priority is no longer on there own soldiers but another country’s soldiers who when this war began were against us, so now the next war that happens with iraq they will be shooting a M4 at me while I am still using my long rifle. Thanks, Gotta love irony.
AnonSoldier: Sorry you feel that way. Have you given any thought to the fact WE are responsible for their military? Heh, health and welfare inspections, that brings back memories, welcome to the green machine.
I could see giving them A2’s but why give them M4’s when our own military is still carrying around A2’s. Just really frustrates me my own company has been fighting for 2 years trying to get us M4’s for this deployment and have been told the army doesnt have the money to give to our unit to purchase them, But they have the money to give it to iraqi army, They could of given them to us then given our A2’s to them. I wonder what the percentage rate is of M4’s to A2’s that we are supplying. As far as the H&Wf goes, I been in a while, used to it but never had it this extreme.
AnonSoldier
im sorry you have sorry ass leaders that just treat you like garbage. i went thru the same thing. but dont let it get you down. do your best to make rank qucikly so you dont have to deal with losers that think because they have rank they are more of a man then you are. ive been thru the same thing. then i got promoted faster and outranked those losers that used to smoke me for nothing. and i could see the hate in their eyes when i out ranked them. its important that when you have soliders to look after that you dont make the same mistakes that were made on you to you soliders. these are the same soliders that will be covering you back when you are leading from the front.
To quote the story “So far, the U.S. military has helped the Iraqi army purchase 43,000 rifles — a mix of full-stock M-16A2s and compact M-4 carbines.” I doubt they are giving everyone an M4, or just giving them a weapon free. Lots of oil monies available over there that hasn’t yet been skimmed off.
Not everyone’s job in the Military requires a pistol, M4, SAW, or . The M4 has its limitations just like any other weapon. That is why in any organization, there is a mix of weapons ready to respond to any given situation. A friend of mine, went over as a legal clerk, in a JAG section, and he carried a M243 SAW. That was his assigned weapon, when it made more sense as a legal clerk to carry a M9.
I am sorry that your health and welfare inspection went poorly. I had my fair share of “failed” H&W inspections. It is all part of the “game”.
The 16 more reliable than the 47? NO WAY!
The 16/4 is a total pain in the butt and does require extra cleaning to keep it on line.
The 16 is also a heavy gravel bellies wet dream.
It won’t be long before the undisciplined Iraqis will be whining that their 16/4’s are jamming.
Carbon, sand, and break-free clp mixed together make for certain 16/4 problems.
In two to three years they will be wanting to go back to the more reliable 47.
I think people are missing a big line in the article. Regardless of how you feel about new M16 vs. new AK, the fact of the matter is that alot of these Iraqis are using very old AKs. A 20 or 30 year old AK will be inferior to a new or near-new M16 in most ways, even reliability.
The AK-47 and its many offspring have earned the reputation of being the weapons of the bad guys. I’m sure a big part of this move is psychological, an attempt to turn over a new leaf as a professional, disciplined force that is aligned with the forces of good. Yet I can’t help but feel that the particulars of the conditions there in Iraq might have suggested better alternatives. The M-16 family does require a lot of maintenance in Iraq’s climate, and even though the Iraqi Army is being trained by the best, I think the fact that, unlike with the US Army, these weapons will certainly spend their entire lifetimes in that climate would push the Iraqis to adopt a weapon designed with that climate in mind. There are plenty of AR-15 style rifles with gas pistons out there that would greatly reduce the effects of the desert dust while retaining the good-guy-gun image and also keeping most of the M-16’s finest qualities.
I’ve always wondered if there was a program to introduce ‘skunked’ munitions into the enemies supply lines… or maybe a PsyOps program to make him doubt his weapons & ammo. Maybe now would be a good time for one.
“I’ve always wondered if there was a program to introduce ‘skunked’ munitions into the enemies supply lines… or maybe a PsyOps program to make him doubt his weapons & ammo. Maybe now would be a good time for one.“
Yes.. Like RPG’s that explode the second they are shot.
Let me get this straight. You want to give the Iraqi Army and police booby-trapped ammo?
sorry, or did you mean flood the area with bad AK ammo? Sorry if I misunderstood. IIRC, in Vietnam, sometimes SpecOps types wouldn’t destroy an ammo cache. They would carefully unpackage it, take apart random rounds, dump the powder and pack it with C-4. They would then repackage it and leave it there. Allegedly, on occaision, during an attack you would get to see the odd enemy eating his AK bolt.
I think this has more to do with us trying to teach the Iraqis how to real marksmanship instead of the normal middle eastern way of fighting, firing aimed shots instead of holding the gun wherever you feel like and spraying lead in any direction the barrel happens to be pointing.
This could also be a question of ammunition quality here. Where are they getting that mosin-nagant 7.62mm round from? Most likely someone that isn’t an ally of ours currently and well the 5.56mm round is much easier to come by in Iraq what with 3 of our weapons using it, the m249, the m16a2, and the m4.
So we train them to clean the weapon, fire accurately at targets and perhaps have a better way to track illicit arms trafficking as the pros. The cons are reliability if the weapon isn’t cleaned and they might be getting newer weapons than our soldiers. You decide what makes more sense here.
This is all about dumping spare inventory onto the IAF so then Colt and FN have another entire army to sell spare parts to and the like. And it most likely means we won’t be ditching the 16 series anytime soon, which is a shame. Wouldn’t look too good if we coaxed the IAF into using the 16 and then stopped using it.
However, the IAF really took off when they attached them to US units. The Iraqis quickly started to emulate the US forces because they have a great respect for them as fighters. Perhaps giving them a rifle that is not meant to be a throw away will help instill more discipline and pride in the IAF? Worth a shot.
This is going to make things more interesting. My last trip to the range I had trouble purchasing 5.56. The gun tech told me that it is in short supply since a lot of it is going off-shore to the sandbox. This is going to strain that supply even more. I would image that at this point a large percentage of rounds fired are either in the sandbox, or in training work-ups to deployments. This has the potential to double the volume of rounds in use and expended ammo out of inventory.
And the death knell of the burgeoning Iraqi army was heard around the world.
Seriously, I am worried that they wont do the maintenance and theyll be carrying around a piece of useless junk in the shape of an m-16.
To me this seems like a step to force the IAF to become more professional. Maintaining the M-16 will instill discipline. A well disciplined, professional army will be more likely to perform like soldiers, not street thugs.
m-16’s are not really that reliable in the desert conditions unless you clean them very often.
I saw a picture of a Sadrist militiaman proudly brandishing an M-4, so these weapons seem to have a great deal of street cred in Iraq.
Ah, What now? M16 more reliable than G-36, FAMAS, Galil?
The Israelis’ rifles are made for sandboxes. Too bad they all probably have the Star of David imprinted on them. Some day the neighborhood will learn to get along. There couldn’t possibly be a better marriage than the IAF’s industrial base and the oil rich customers next door.
Umm, Army Col. Stephen Scott is sorely mistaken.
(Wait, i get it, a hedge against “the future?”)
“If we get the aks away from them, when they shoot at us next time, they won’t kill us.” Smells like VICTORY!!!!!! LOL, DW
(FICTION) PS — Army Col. Stephen Scotts children have had a two million dollar scholarship acct opened for them…
“Robert Brenzel ‘Bob’ ” writes: “Some day the neighborhood will learn to get along. There couldn’t possibly be a better marriage than the IAF’s industrial base and the oil rich customers next door.“
The people whom you just called “Israel’s neighbourhood” ARE the original, legitimate owners of Palestine, mind you.
Hey “U.S. American” (= self-exiled European or his descendant) : How do you like the red Indians’ “neighbourhood” yourself?
“Any soldier who doesn’t maintain his weapon at every oppurtunity, no matter the design, is a fool“
AK works after being in a sand bath. M-16 doesn’t.
During the firefight, you’re not gonna have time to clean your weapon after sand or mud gets into it.
“I saw a picture of a Sadrist militiaman proudly brandishing an M-4, so these weapons seem to have a great deal of street cred in Iraq.“
Posted by: CSI at February 28, 2008 05:18 AM
Do you really think the weapon itself was what he was proudly displaying, rather than what it implies he did to get it ?
A lot of Afghan muj proudly wear Russian army belt buckles. It ain’t because they hold pants up better than others.
The M16 and the AK-47 both have their own problems, it just depends on the origin of combat they are entering into. M16’s have a longer reach than an AK does and is generally more accurate… but he 5.56x45mm NATO round falls significantly shorter on stopping power than the .30 cal: 7.62x39mm Soviet. While AK’s are extremely durable and powerful, they lack in accuracy due to the increasing muzzle climb generated by the higher power .30 calibre round.
Note: The 5.56’s power becomes even more decreased after the bullet has descended below 2700 fps.
+Standard loads are at like 55 grns.