In 1992, the first line combat air strength of the Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) consisted of approximately 200 aircraft, organized into six fighter/ground-attack squadrons and five fighter-air defense squadrons. However, the RSAF declined during the 1990s’ as the Kingdom’s F-5EIIs and F-5s lost substantial operational capability.
In September 2007, Saudi Arabia and Britian signed a deal for the sale of 72 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft for 4.43bn (British pounds). The deal followed a 21bn al-Yamamah contract negotiated by the Thatcher government and involving the sale of BAE Systems Tornado jets and medical equipment.
Now, the US is reportedly considering a sale of the advanced stealth F-35 Lightning II to Saudi Arabia. In an effort to maintain military superiority, Israel has asked the Bush administration to purchase the the F-22 Raptor, despite the fact that foreign sales of the aircraft are currently banned by Congress.
In addition, Israeli defense officials have requested two new advanced JDAM models (laser-guided and immune to jamming) to offset the standard JDAM smart-bomb kits sold to Saudi Arabia that converts existing 500-, 1,000– and 2,000-pound unguided free-fall bombs into accurately guided “smart” weapons.
Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., has expressed concern over US arms sales to Saudi Arabia, noting that the Kingdom has not been a true ally in furthering the United States interests in the Middle East, and noted that about 40 percent of all foreign fighters [in Iraq] are Saudi.
However, according to US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States will help bolster forces of moderation and support a broader strategy to counter the negative influences of al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran.”
Nevertheless, Daryl G. Kimball of the Arms Control Association has compared the Bush administration arms sales policy of sell, sell, sell to throwing gasoline on a brush fire.
The possibility of a rogue pilot or the eventual overthrow of the Saudi regime also concerns officials and analysts. Dr. Michael Donovan of the CDI emphasized that as of Sept. 11, [Saudi] stability can no longer be taken for granted…The Islamic values upon which they based their authority for so long are now, seemingly, in conflict with forces they could not control even if they chose to do so.
(Gouge: NC)
{ 55 comments… read them below or add one }
How can people say how superior of an aircraft the f22 is and then say they are considering selling it to even our best friends. Why not sell the B2 stealth, V22 osprey and latest and prized possession of US military hardware so that it can be reversed engineered and some of it’s attributes made obsolete. Unless there is something more advanced then the f22. I’m confused, some secrets are kept secrets even to best of friends. Even to your spouse or parents. Is greed and money that important to compromise US security.
Selling advanced weapontry to the Saudis is bad policy. They are the bad guys. They are a repressive brutal monarchy.
They make Castro’s regime look warm and fuzzy by comparison.
Their foreign fighters and 9-11 fighters are a leading cause of U.S. casualties. We need to be sending them foreign civilian aid to help them find a productive purpose for unemployed college educated (in Islamic theology) young men, not advanced jet fighters.
We reduced their need for aircraft when we destroyed the Iraqi Air Force. The only air force an F-35 is legitimately necessary to counter is Israel’s and there is no point in fueling both sides of the Saudi-Israel arms race.
Well, the Israelis will do everything they can to block that deal…and they generally get what they want.
someone remind me. when was the last time the saudi fighter planes kill innocent women, children, and days old babies?
the same can’t be said about Israel.
Is it the intent of this post to deliberately not mention the fact that the RSAF flies F-15 warplanes?
To :
Let’s not forget that the massive U.S. arms sales to the Arab Gulf countries are primarily directed against the potential IRANIAN threat. It is very doubtful that any of the U.S.-supplied hardware to Saudi Arabia – including F-15s and AWACs aircraft – pose a threat to Israel. Even the Saudi theater ballistic missiles that were procured from the People’s Republic of China are not mobile and they sit on “fixed bases,” i.e., less of a threat to Israeli security. The question remains whether the Royal Saudi Arabian Air Force will be technically able to effectively absorb, man and operate F-35 technology. The Saudis procured the M1 Abrams tank as well. A large number of those tanks simply sits in storage.
First, the US can sell our crap to whomever we choose, and Israel will just have to accept it.
Israel fears Arabs and Persians, and the Arabs fear Jews and Persians. The US only is concerned with Iran(for no real reason), and we sell to everyone, as a result.
The Saud’s recycle petrodollars and buy our weapons, and Israel recycles our foreign aid to buy our weapons. Nice.
The F35 should have never been designed with stealth and other 5th gen technology if everyone was concerned about tech transfers, which will happen regardless of safeguards.
The F35 is a multi role plane for all US branches plus our Allies, numbering several thousand airframes. Export market was a a primary goal in order to keep cost per plane down to affordable levels and spread risks across to all, so why does everyone have their panties in a wad?
Did I read that Israel wanted F22′s to potentially shoot down F35′s? We should sell the F22 to Japan and Israel, just to keep the F22 lines open and make money, not just to subdue others paranoia.
CR
Well, the Israelis will do everything they can to block that deal…and they generally get what they want.
good because i dont know of any israeli terrorist in iraq or aphg. do you?
socalmaverick
war sucks but no offense they shouldnt put bomb factories in the same building or area as a residence….no go put the tinfoil hat back on so the zionist consperacy cant read your mind
to israel yes to japan…maybe there not real big on security…already had some leaks about ageis. and bryan..iran is a threat iran funds both hezzbollah,hamas, and other smaller terrorist groups….now imagine what a world without hezzbolla, hamas and there copies would be like? iran is THE sponsor of world terror next is saudis.
so no planes to saudi arabia…youd think we would have figured out and stopped selling crap to a country that birthed what 90% of the 911 highjackers.
also ask a question those of you who seem to see israel as the bugyman…if a man fired off a rocket that rocket blewup caused your son/daughter to lose a leg what would you feel like doing? There can be no peace in the holy land(sence some here probbly dont see israel or palestines bla bla right to exist bla bla)till the palestinians renounce terror and try to live like men and not mad animals…hell and im not even jewish or israeli and i see that!
“The US only is concerned with Iran(for no real reason), and we sell to everyone, as a result.”
Hamas, Hezbollah, Nukes, and Revolutionary Guard, IEDs, armor-piercing grenades, Sadr’s militia, Beirut bombing, hostage taking, in the embassy and Royal Navy, and trying to do the same to one of our destroyers in the Persian Gulf.
Yeah, Iran is not being unfairly singled out amongst all of the good citizens of the world because we don’t like their shoes. We have good reason to be against the “Persians.”
And there is good reason – beyond the defense of Israel – to avoid selling the F-35 to Saudi Arabia. Beyond keeping the technology secret (Chinese F-35 knockoffs, anyone?), those fighters are designed for offense. We want to, or should want to, keep Saudi Arabia cozy in their sandbox, not in a position to strike from Mogadishu to Tel Aviv, Baghdad to Tehran.
This is a bad idea. Sell them all the F-15s they want, no JSFs.
Israel may not have terrorist in this country but they are VERY active in spying in America. Only China right now spies more on the US than Israel. With friends like this who needs enemies.
Except for the “stealthness”, I think the EF is clearly superior to the F-35.
Isn’t the problem that we allow these kinds of weapons to be sold all over the world to begin with? How much fun would the Iran Iraq was have been if the reds had not given them both a all that junk? Then we go in at do the same thing, and come back to face it a few years after that. Not always our hardware but our policies blow back pretty good. Stop giving any of those guys weapons at all. It’s just a bad policy.
RSAF allready flies F 15s
RSAF has broken agreements as to the deployment of their F 15s.
They were sold with th eunderstanding that they would not be deployed to a RSAf base just south of Jordan not far from Israel.
Screw me once shame on you screw me twice shame on me.
Lets not forget that Iran has no Air Force to speak of. Iraq is gone. Only people Saudi really has to worr about are the Cambodians.
Israel has no need or desire to ocuppy the sands of saudi Arabia nor that of Egypt.
What the western suppliers of weapons should do is refuse to let their nationals maintain the sophisticated weapons systems unless they cut the price of oil. Since these arab countries don’t maintain their own aircraft and use many foreigners as pilots lets put a bit of prssure on them.
Tell our friends the Saudi’s too bad and
“tough luck”. They refuse to give us even a little break on the price of oil and we should sell them our top of the line planes? Crapola.
It has to be comforting to Israel to know that the next war could happen without their knowing until the first bombs fell.
How many times has the Saudi military attacked a US naval vessel, killed US sailors, and lied about it?
Not too much ‘what if’ to fret about there.
Vitor,
Care to provide ANY reasoning for your THINKING that except for the “stealthness”, the EF is clearly superior to the F-35…
I urge NO sales to Saudis.
Come clean on terrorisim issues, Denounce Militant Islam & dont Fund terror groups.
& expand Oil Production.
Otherwise NO.
Can use planes on our forces & Israel alone.
Let Israel have some F22s & F35s.
Give them the Good Planes.
How do we know Saudis wont use planes in combat or issue to allies for use IE Iran.
This is the biggest mistake ever. As was mentioned, we sold F-15′s and 16′ to Israel to defend against islamic nations.
F-15′s to Saudi to counter Iraq. Iraq is no longer a viable fighting force so why sell them the JSF? Big Biz! If the Shaw of Iran weapons deal of 50+ f-14′s taught us anything, never sell your best to a fair weather friend.I think Saudi is well on it’s way to civil war Their gov. says one thing the people do another. let them get their stuff from our Russian friends. Then we know when the day comes to make them understand our resolve, we aren’t fighting our own equipment.
And that day is coming.
after we go into Iran it will be the Saudis turn. I would hate to be fighting against our own tanks and planes when the time comes. we hand our enemies the guns they use to shoot us in the back. makes perfect sense.
thank you george bush
from an
Iraqi Freedom veteran
I was in the Persian Gulf back in 79 when the hostages were taken. I was on board the USS LaSalle COMIDEASTFORCE and the F-4′s that we had sold to Iran were tracking us. I agree with everyone else don’t sell our enemies short they will use our own weapons against us at the drop of a hat.You make an aircraft spending billions to keep it a secret and then sell your enemy one what kind of stupid thinking is that.
Army/Navy vet……
hell yea paulb
i also agree saudis are headed to civil war most of the terrorist are funded by saudi rulers not ppl.
Also if we were in a war for survival dont you think or atleast hope that if a ship was off our waters giving info to the enemy theyd find a asntiship missile up there ass?
The Israelis care for nothing but themselves and their own goals and will stop at nothing to attain their goals…..the Liberty is a great example…..Johnathan Pollard compromised American National Security and the Israelis want him pardoned and released so they can throw him a parade….we are just a means to an ends for the Israelis.
This is the Saudi situation. The current Saudi government is as friendly as they can be, given their situation. They want to continue to sell us oil, so they can continue to be rich. They also allow the crazies to preach the wacko version of islam, so they can maintain their power.
We want the current Saudi government to maintain their power, because they ensure oil flow. Sometimes you have to go to bed with the devil, unfortunately.
Leave it to Bush and Cheney to do something this idiotic should they get it to go through. Sell the top of the line stuff that even our own forces are not even equipped with yet. And then watch Saudi Arabia go the way of Iran and suddenly Russia and China also now have their hands on our latest for reverse engineering.
Why worry about the little items sold on ebay like night vision goggles and uniforms when all you need to do it talk to our president and he will sell you the latest technology we have.. including items not even in production yet!
Reasons why the EF is better than the F-35…maybe because its much more agile and not ridiculously heavy? Just the fact that the F-35 manages to be heavier than the much larger F-22 is already intriguing…
The F-35 is the embodiment of mediocrity. I remember a guy trying to defend the F-35 with the argument that it was “so manuverable as a F-16″. My god! Manuverable as a plane made 30 years ago?! Amazing!! There is nothing that stands out on the F-35 except for the fact that is stealth.
Oh, the EF is already operational, while the F-35 is getting more expensive everyday…
“Leave it to Bush and Cheney to do something this idiotic should they get it to go through. Sell the top of the line stuff that even our own forces are not even equipped with yet. And then watch Saudi Arabia go the way of Iran and suddenly Russia and China also now have their hands on our latest for reverse engineering.”
You’ve got it all backwards: The “threat” of F-35′s or -22′s or -whatevers in nefarious swarthy is a BONUS. Future LockMart/Boeing/Raytheon disinfo, er, “marketing” campaigns will practically write themselves!
Honestly Victor what does that have to do with anything. You are just posting pure non-sense. This article is not about the sale of the Eurofighter to Saudi Arabia, its about us selling stealth jsf to SA. Yes it may be more maneuverable then the JSF but that wasn’t the intent of the JSF. I don’t think Britain is worrying to much of stealing Maneuverability, but we honestly would like to keep the technology from the techno thieves china.
The Saudi’s are our FRIENDS! Yeah right!
The fundaments of stealth is well understood nowdays by China and Russia, but Russia has a tight budget, what prevents futher development, but the moment that China really want to go stealth, they will.
Victor you are missing my point. You are making a comparison in a thread that has nothing to do with your comparison. But since we can’t seem to keep it on topic… No I don’t believe that. If that were the case then the j-11 wouldn’t be a carbon copy of the su-27. I’m not saying that china doesn’t have some capabilities, but they have many quality and manufacturing issues which are necessities if a stealth aircraft is to be successful. I don’t believe even Britain has the stealth technique down pact hense them signing on to the JSF. The concepts may be there but that doesn’t give you the know how. But back on topic, I don’t believe we should sell the Saudi’s another thing. I agree with most on the board, that they haven’t done enough to prevent terrorism. It sickens me to have them threaten Isreal. We don’t even import that much oil from SA, we import more from a host of nations on our hemisphere.
So…finally getting on topic..I doubt the saudis would team up with Iran. There are a lot of bitterness between them. Well, that actually happens with most of Islam.
Except for stealthness, eh! Except for that “bullet” a sword is way more effective than a machine gun. And im Italian and i love the EF.
Lets not forget, tho, that export JSF will be significantly downgraded. The only full capable JSFs will be USA’s and UK’s (maybe). I expect that third tier JSF (being the first tier USA and UK, second tier the other JSF project countries,) will have a even more down/de/graded stealth/software versions, and their RCS somewhat tagged.
Moreover, i wont be that sure that reversal engineering would be *that* easy. Iran got Shaw’s F-15 for 20 years and got nothing.
Not precisely a piece of cake, but something to think about (when you need desperately money and oil).
Vitor,
According to the latest official/unclassified data the empty weight of the production F-35A is 26,664 lbs with an internal fuel capacity of 18,307 lbs. That SHOULD put “normal” take-off weight with max internal fuel, two AMRAAM & two 2000 lb JDAM at ~50,000 lbs (~40,000 lbs in air-to-air configuration with a reduced but still very respectable 12,000 lbs of internal fuel).
What makes you think that maneuverability is the BE-ALL-AND-END-ALL of fighter capability? Do you not realize that there ARE in fact several other factors to a fighter’s capability? Even if you ignor stealth, the F-35 will outclass the Typhoon in most categories.
Even at this early stage the F-35 test pilots have indicated that they are fully confident that the F-35 will be MORE maneuverable than the F-16 (the F-16 is STILL the standard by with fighter maneuverability is judged & in fact the maneuverability of the F-16 EXCEEDS the capabilities of most pilots).
While I am sure most would probably conceed that the Eurofigher is more maneuverable in “airshow condition” than the F-35 in “airshow condition”, the two in “combat condition” will likely be closer than you think. Most would still likely give a slight edge to the Eurofighter in pure air-to-air condition (at least once it loses its drop tanks anyway).
There is NOTHING mediocre about the F-35. It carries more fuel internally than a Eurofighter carries WITH three drop tanks! More fuel internally than a F-14 or F-15 – the only fighters which carry more internal fuel are the significantly larger F-15E (with CFTs), F-22 & Flanker. Its sensor suite will be the most advanced in the world & it is capable of carrying more than 5,000 lbs of weapons INTERTNALLY. Oh & 28,000 lbs of dry thrust/43,000 lbs with afterburner. All that in a package smaller than a F/A-18A-D!
And…a RCS the size of a golfball. :)
The F-35 JSF will be the most security compromised jet in history. Better start thinking about a fourth export “configuration” that is really dumbed down.
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We reduced their need for aircraft when we destroyed the Iraqi Air Force. The only air force an F-35 is legitimately necessary to counter is Israel’s and there is no point in fueling both sides of the Saudi-Israel arms race.
We reduced their need for aircraft when we destroyed the Iraqi Air Force. The only air force an F-35 is legitimately necessary to counter is Israel’s and there is no point in fueling both sides of the Saudi-Israel arms race.
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Is it the intent of this post to deliberately not mention the fact that the RSAF flies F-15 warplanes?
Well, the Israelis will do everything they can to block that deal…and they generally get what they want.
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