This article first appeared in Aviation Week’s Ares Weblog.
President Bush publicly acknowledged that Syria has been doing something suspicious involving nuclear development and North Korea. Following his lead, other officials are quietly dropping clues about how Syrias suspicious facility was attacked.
The Israel Air Force’s stunning, undetected flight through Syria’s air defenses late last year — as part of a raid on a suspected nuclear facility — bears electronic fingerprints similar to those left in Baghdad by the U.S. in 1991 and 2003, say U.S. military and IT industry specialists.
The raid on Syria was winked at by the U.S. which also supplied some non-participatory support, they say.
The answer to the question of why the U.S. was involved is that “The Israelis can do things [within the region and Israel’s political structure that] we sometimes can’t do,” says a senior U.S. Air Force official with long background in black operations. Syria’s construction of the facility and North Korea’s participation “was an area of concern for us as well, so there was some help provided in discussing vulnerabilities and providing other knowledge [of Syria’s integrated air defenses and electrical grid]. What occurred, isn’t inconsistent with what happened in Iraq twice before.“
So what did the U.S. forces do in Iraq in 1991 and 2003 to confound air defenses, communications and the ability to command forces in the field?
Read the rest of this story, see pics of Marine LAVs getting busy and get inside a big ‘ole helo gaggle from our good friends at Aviation Week on Military.com.
– Christian
Well, hopefully this will silence some of the stealth naysayers. When word of Israel’s attack first hit this website, there were quite a few here who used it as an opportunity to attack stealth aircraft, saying they were overpriced and outdated. “The Israelis can do the same thing cheaper and easier!“
Now we find out that the Israelis did it with US tech assistance.
Before the antisemites get their foot in the door and ‘raise questions’ regarding helping the Israelis (and their own mental health), I don’t think Israel needs our technology per se to shut down Syria.
All things are similar, except for the differences, and different, except for the similarities, so it depends on ‘how’ similar the electronic ‘fingerprints’ were — and what those fingerprints are.
I get the distinct impression 1991, 2003, and 2007 are linked only vaguely to each other — umm, black guys, with sneakers, yep, that one on the far right — so the links that appear reflect just the state of the art and not a midnight cabal.
Why don;t we take a closer look at the ‘evidence’ here? Am I the only one who remembers what happened last time? There are so many holes in the official version that you really have to doubt what’s going on, and the US involvement makes me a lot less comfortable. Who is doing who’s dirty work here?
Isn’t it funny how if you even think of questioning the Israelis you’re automatically branded an antisemite.…..
This just fuels the fire between those who just want stealth capabilities “ONLY” versus those who feel that there should be a balance between stealth aircraft & conventional aircraft.Israel does not currently have stealth aircraft,so they have to use the conventional aircraft that they have.Hell,the Israelis could do spectacular things today with WWI Bi-planes if that was all they had to work with.The F-16I is a marvelous plane,but the “F-35 or bust” crowd absolutely refuse to see it,they have their eyelids shut tight & their fingers in their ears,they REFUSE to see it.Why we can’t have both IS a legitimate question.The same with having BOTH F-15s & F-22s.The only reason why we still have F-15Es is because the “stealth Crowd” haven’t found a way.…yet to have a two-seat stealth aircraft to replace the F-15E.
Of course,I totally feel that the way to go is “unmanned” killer robots & cyborg “super” soldiers in flying “Iron Man” suits & phaser rifles.We should hold off buying new weapons until this “amazing” breakthrough is achieved…in the year 2200.
The US hasn’t had a lot of trouble with Russian-supplied air defense systems lately. As simple or as complicated as that may be, they’re willing to share this info with anyone who will do the work of Civilization in the ME (i.e. the Israelis) So let’s not hold our breath on the press conference.
Imagine what could be done with all the tech and stealth…
“Isn’t it funny how if you even think of questioning the Israelis you’re automatically branded an antisemite.…..“
No. It stopped being funny long ago.
The Israelis need to be unleashed and get to work in that godforsaken part of the world. When you have a small fire of good in a barbaric darkness you blow on the embers.
Well, do we really know for a fact that the Israelis did do the attack? What is interesting to me is the map of the area. The US is far closer to that site than the Israelis, its just over the Iraq border. We have more capability from top to bottom for that kind of attack. We have F-22 that could do the job with little risk of detection. We have the computer attack skills needed for the job.
Finally, the US under Bush has told the North Koreans that a red line exists with their nuke program, cross it and pay the consequences. What was that red line? Exporting their nuke tech to some other country.
I do believe that the US did that attack and Israel is taking the credit so the US doesn’t get condemned by half, no all of the Arab world.
Roy Smith,
We WILL have BOTH F-15s & F-22 and F-16s & F-35s for quite some time. But F-15s & F-16s can not fly forever so they HAVE to replaced & procuring more F-15s instead of F-22s &/or more F-16s instead of F-35s is just stupid. The superior capabilities of the F-22 & F-35 FAR outway their PROCUREMENT cost vs the PROCUREMENT cost of new F-15s & F-16s.
Yes the F-16I is a marvelous plane, but the F-35 is a MUCH superior plane. The same is true in all the F-22/F-35 vs Eurofighter discussions. NOBODY is saying that the Eurofighter is not a marvelous plane but it is a marvelous 4th generation plane while the F-22/F-35 are/will be marvelous 5th generation planes.
Off-Topic:We should have a thread on the movie “Iron Man” & how close we actually are to having exoskeleton suits that could mimic “Iron Man(minus the flying of course)”.I never realized in the decades of growing up & reading Iron Man,how relevant it is now in terms of technical capabilities we have now.
On-Topic: I don’t think I have to be accused of being anti-semitic if I accuse Ehud Olmert of being a wimp & total ass hole(the slang word for female genitalia & kitty cats also come to mind concerning him).I respect the Israeli military & technology.I have no respect for their government leaders,just like I have no respect for the neo-con nut jobs currently running our country.
We only have so many F-22s,so we’d know if they were in the area or not.I’m not sure if any are or were in Iraq around the time of this raid.
I still believe that having the proper BALANCE of stealth & conventional aircraft with electronic counter-measures is the way we should go.The stealth crowd,however,have a totally closed mind about this concept.Stealth is like a religion to them & anybody who says anything counter to stealth are “blaspheming infidels.”
Stealth(5th Generation) is GREAT for night flying,where it excels most.Conventional aircraft(4.5th Generation) is great for day time flying.If you have a around the clock bombing mission,like we had during Desert Storm,you are naturally going to use Stealth planes(F-22,F-35,& B-2) solely for night,& Conventional planes(F-15,F-16,AV-8,A-10,B-1,& B-52) for day,unless of course,we found a way to keep the sun from coming up,which would totally benefit our stealth aircraft,but totally screw up farmers world wide from growing any crops naturally.Have we perfected “cloaking” technology so that our stealth aircraft could fly in the day time also?
Maybe if the Military-Industrial Complex weren’t trying to suck us dry for every dime we had through their extortion,we’d be able to buy both stealth & conventional aircraft.At least the military-Industrial Complex was more HONEST during the 80’s.Today,they are just ripping us off & we aren’t getting s**t in return.Blame mission creep,blame the pentagon,blame congress,or just blame the lying thieves sucking us dry.
I disagree about the F-35 being “much superior” to the F-16.
Roy Smith: “The F-16I is a marvelous plane,but the “F-35 or bust” crowd absolutely refuse to see it,they have their eyelids shut tight & their fingers in their ears,they REFUSE to see it.Why we can’t have both IS a legitimate question.“
Let’s see, uhhhh, MONEY!
“The same with having BOTH F-15s & F-22s.“
And that’s shaping up to be a fiscal boondoggle.
Now that people are commenting about this in the open I would go back to comments that some of us made in Sept about this and you will find that this is old news — confirmed. Sending Syria a message loud and clear is a no brainer — you can’t have that.
More important is how many Russian AA systems were sold after this? (sarcasm) While IAF took the heat for this is is generally a good idea to have a FFID if you fly in the prox to US forces. Someday this will be on the History/Mil channel and the group fly out over the Med was probably a faint.
You can read about deliveries and appropriation mods to see that these systems are ideal for the mission type flown and completed (tested) or atleast the systems we know about (published)
How many other countries were in the know? That is a real question.
citanon,
I agree,the bloodsucking Military-Industrial Complex is sucking us dry.If the Military-Industrial Complex were really the patriots they “CLAIM” to be,we could afford a hell of a lot of weapons spread across the board.However,its all about sucking us dry.It’s “all about the money,” its all about ripping off the tax paying American citizen & putting our troops at needless risk.
Why haven’t they built supersonic Stealth UCAV’s yet.That would please the both the Stealth crowd & the UAV/UCAV crowd in one swoop.
Roy Smith,
LOL!
Just one example: Lockheed Martin Corporation 5-Year Average Gross Profit Margin = 9.5%.
I see, stealth only works at night.
I agree that there should be a balance of stealth & non-steath but that balance DOES NOT include procuring more F-15s & F-16s instead of F-22s & F-35s.
And I see that you are a conspiracy theorist as well.
So Roy, do you own any stocks? Any mutuals? You may be the public portion of “The Military Industrial Complex.” All of these companies are publically traded stocks who are legally bound to make a profit for their share-holders. The same is true for the oil.
Now, back on the topic. Having blogs that discuss the nuances of how military missions are conducted is a two edged sword. Yes, we get to discuss it, but our enemies also get to listen in. Because of this, it will not be so easy the next time. (It’s called “opsec” folks.)
Stealth is optimal at night,because besides being “invisible” on radar,the darkness hinders enemy pilots & ground ADA units from visualizing the aircraft.During the daytime,what good is stealth on radar,if everybody & their brother,sister,mama,etc. can see it streaking through the air? I seriously doubt that they’ll think it’s an UFO. The makers of the F/A-18E/F Super hornet had a very serious financial stake in getting rid of the F-14 Tomcat.There for they “heavily” influenced congress & then Sec.Def. Cheney to cut off funds for up keep & improvements on the F-14.The same goes with the A-6 Intruder.The only plane that needed replacement was the A-7.But there was money to be made.Think of all of the nuclear powered cruisers we “Recycled(scrapped)(every single one,by the way),” & now all of a sudden,Congress wants nuclear powered cruisers for our navy? Hello,if THATS not a conspiracy theory,I don’t know what is? this isn’t about defense,it’s about lining pockets.
As far as stealth versus conventional,why can we not just replace our single seat F-16s with the F-35 & then,upgrade our 2-seat F-16s to F-16I standards &/or the F-16s Block 52+/60 that we are selling to Poland,Greece,UAE & that we are proposing to sell to India? A two-seat F-16 could operate like the F-15E Strike Eagle.It seems so simple & EASY TO UNDERSTAND,but,I guess even the idea of keeping a 2-seat conventional aircraft around steps on toes,right? Again,why is it a matter of “money?” Until they start putting R2D2 in planes,there is still a need for “specialized” 2-seat aircraft.
Who says the flight was “undetected”?
And why, if the aim was to ‘send a signal’, do the Israelis refuse to confirm the attack, let along accuse Syria of a nuclear program?
All this stuff about the value of stealth aircraft is irrelevant — the Israelis have always been able to bomb the Syrians. The question is what’s realy going on.
I’ve been wondering…
Why did the Israelis destroy the facility before (according to the report) the reactor was fueled? Wouldn’t there have been more evidence (ie. radiation), if it was destroyed during the reactor startup? And as a bonus foul the material, as well as contaminate the equipment.
“Satellite Photos Show Cleansing of Syrian Site“
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/world/middleeast/26weapons.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
“Syria’s Nuclear Reactor — pt 1″
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ah6RmcewUM
Re: Stealth. I think I’d be more surprised, if Israel didn’t have a couple of stealth platforms hidden away somewhere.
On a side note:
And has anyone figured out why North Korean built runways running through/into a Mountain?
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.092566,127.410636&spn=0.015954,0.029011&t=h&z=15
http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/20080429233050.aspx
I think we are missing the point. Yes the “electronic fingerprints” look like US ECM gear because the Israelies USE US EQUIPMENT. Of course its going to look similar. On the other hand, they may not be bragging about it because they don’t want everyone to know all their capabilities, nor how much they know about whats going on (letting an enemy know that compromises intelligence and intellegence assets).
Why didn’t they bomb it after it was fueled? Which way does the wind blow? Is their even a small chance that by blowing up a FUELED NUCLEAR REACTOR you might dump particles into the air that would blow into allied nations or your own? Yah, it might look like a good idea at first glance, but when you look at the colateral damage, it might not be such a bright idea…especially since that kind of colateral damage would just piss off more Arabs. The Israelies TRY not to hit civvie targets or cause colateral damage…its not their fault that the enemy keeps using neighborhoods and houses as “human shielding” for their rocket launchers and terror cells.
Roy, just because you can look up in the air and see a jet doesn’t mean you can shoot it down. Stealth is BETTER at night, of course, because you don’t give ANY warning to your opponent. But stealth in the daytime is still loads better than no stealth in the daytime.
A 2 seat F-16 is no replacement for the F-15. Not even close, no matter how much you upgrade it.
I never said that the F-16I should replace the F-15E,I feel that it would complement & supplement the strike fighter/fighter bomber capabilities of of the F-15E AND the use of B-1 bombers for strike missions.The F-16I(I’m using the I model as an example) can fly nap of the earth like the old F-111 use to.With digital camouflage,the outline of the F-16 can be distorted & hidden from any enemy aircraft flying over head of it.Having electronic countermeasures installed will also help it.Both external & conformal fuel tanks will give it long range.As far as the F-35 goes,we should concentrate on the V/STOL model first,like what the Israelis are requesting.If we were ever to meet with an enemy that has a competent air force,we’d want a jet that can get off the ground without benefit of have to take off from a bombed out runway(just like Israel expects that they will face in another war).I can see the F-22 operating as a dedicated Fighter-Interceptor,because of their thrust vectoring capabilities,both at night & in the daytime.Of all the models of the F-35,the V/STOL version is the MOST important version to get out first.
Bruce Willis & the latest “Die Hard” movie made me a believer in the V/STOL F-35.
coolhand77,
I thought about that as well… The greatest threats of contamination would be to the Euphrates via the cooling system. And for airborne particles, I have great doubts the NK vessel design is engineered to provide collapse containment during a catastrophe. As such you’d definitely see a release of radiation into the air… as for how much, who knows. And it would be easy to demonise Israel for the contamination…
But if that’s the case, is the precedent to only destroy non-operational reactors? What if Syria had an operational reactor in Damascus, or a large population center? Would Israel be so worried about world outrage, they wouldn’t take action?
That said, the reactor fuel (I’m assuming) still has to be somewhere. As well as the scientist & remaining equipment…
So technically the program is set back, but remains a threat. What’s to prevent Syria from building underground… or dispersing it’s program?
“RBMK Reactor“
http://www.nucleartourist.com/type/rbmk.htm
Roy Smith,
Even IF anybody could “see” a stealth aircraft, what can the do about it? 
What good is EW if everybody & their brother, sister, mama, etc. can see it streaking through the air?
I agree that the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet was a complete & utter fraud. BUT the fraud was not about lining pockets but making sure that even though it was INFERIOR to the aircraft it was replacing that it was the only choice so the USN & Congress HAD to accept it. The A-6 did need a replacement & most of the F-14 were getting old & “too expensive” to maintain.
With the end of the cold war we no longer needed 3 dozen cruisers so we decommissioned all but the 22 newest/youngest Ticonderoga class. And the next class of cruisers may be nuclear powered because the DOD wants them to have a major ABM capability which requires a significantly larger ship & for a warship of ~26,000 tons nuclear power has LOWER projected total life-cycle costs. Plus the the ~$800 million greater procurement cost for nuclear power is not so significant when the ship even without nuclear power costs more than $4 billion.
“Why can we not just replace our single seat F-16s with the F-35 & then, upgrade our 2-seat F-16s to F-16I standards &/or the F-16s Block 52+/60 that we are selling to Poland, Greece, UAE & that we are proposing to sell to India?” Because there aren’t enough two-seat F-16s (& they are usually busy being used for training) & just like all F-16s, they can not fly forever.
I don’t want to sound overly simplistic,but I think that the best solution would be for the F-35B to come out first.It is the most versatile of the 3 models planned.If the Air Force is serious about replacing the A-10 Thunderbolt,then it should be with the F-35B instead of the F-35A.because of its V/STOL capabilities,it could stay with the ground forces.It could land in the same fields as the Apache Helicopters for refueling & would not need to fly back to some air field over 100 or more miles away.It does not need paved or metaled runways to operate.Again,this may sound overly simplistic,but it could land & take off from freeways,parking lots,top of buildings,where ever large helicopters like CH-53 or CH-47s could take off & land.The A-10 may have more armor,but the F-35B has the ability to take-off & land in more places & could respond much quicker to ground units needing immediate air support(because it would be much closer to the front).
The only reason that the F-14 was too old & expensive to run is because the Pentagon & Congress closed the assembly lines making them & “broke the molds” so that new ones could not be made.They were also too invested in the F/A-18 to pay for upgrades.Now they pretty much smashed up EVERY F-14 Tomcat we ever had because of the [made up & bogus] fear of Iran “getting a hold of them thar’ F-14s.The only legitimate fear they had was that we’d find out what a useless piece of s**t the F/A-18A/B/C/D/E/F Hornet/Super Hornet was,& they wanted us to be stuck with it by smashing up all of the Tomcats so that we couldn’t go back to them.Maybe they’ll reinvent the wheel like they are doing with the nuclear powered cruiser.Maybe they’ll state the obvious,“the Super Hornet isn’t working,we need something’BETTER’,& we need to piss more money down this black hole to get it.“
You have two scenarios,neither pretty.Either you have globalist elitists wanting to neuter our country so that a one world government can come into place,or.…..you have a bunch of spoiled brat “children” breaking their “toys” so that they can get newer,“better,” & shinier toys.Neither scenario is pretty,in fact they pretty much both suck.
CR: “Isn’t it funny how if you even think of questioning the Israelis you’re automatically branded an antisemite.…..“
Brad: “No. It stopped being funny long ago.“
It is certainly strange and prejudicial as questioning something does not automatically qualify someone as “anti-(whatever the person is questioning)” as you, Brad, are seemingly doing.
Whatever, WR, baby.
So long as the Truthers, the Bakunities, the New Left, Islamofascists, and antisemites (but I repeat myself) stay in their padded cells, I’m cool stomping on “dissent.”
how do I know if I’m a Bakunite if I don’t know what the hell it means?
Israel makes great weapons from what they have to work with.There is nothing wrong with the Israelis as people.They are engaging in both self-defense & survival.There is however a group of global elitist,who have poisoned the governments of Europe,North America,& Israel.Olmert is one of these idiots who had no problem whatsoever with sacrificing Israeli lives needlessly as he did during the 2006 war with Lebanese Hizbollah & Palestinian Hamas,& how he doing with Israeli cities being bombarded by Katyusha Rockets from Gaza.He divides up Israeli Jews between European Jews & African/Asian Jews by giving favored status towards the European/North American/South American Jews over the other Jews.He discriminates against his own people.Peres,Netanyahu,& Barak are no better,just like our choices between Obama,Clinton,&/or McCain are really no choices at all.
Roy, Bakuninite = anarchist after Bakunin. Don’t worry, you are just a nutcase6.
“Whatever, WR, baby. “
Aha. A concession, babe.