This was passed along to me from a source on the EFP retro-armoring for MRAPs currently in Iraq. Looks as if we have some fidelity on the numbers (and this is also posted in the comments section of the previous post, but for the benefit of those that don’t readily dive into pots of boiling oil, I cross-post it here).
From MSNBC:
Meanwhile, at Camp Arifjahn in Kuwait, the military is reinforcing some of the blast-resistant vehicles with additional side armor and it shipped as many as 20 of the newly upgraded vehicles to the battlefront in April. An additional 30 are to go into Iraq beginning this month.
Navy Lt. Cmdr. James Hadley, who is overseeing the upgrades in Kuwait, said not every MRAP is getting the additional armor, which increases the vehicle’s weight by as much as 5,000 pounds. The extra protection, he said, is being added to vehicles destined for hot battleground areas.
The additional armor is shipped in kits to Kuwait and installed on the MRAPs, which only recently arrived at a facility dedicated to outfitting the vehicles with antennas and equipment before being sent to troops.
An extra 5,000 pounds added to a vehicle that already weighs in at 19 tons in some cases? Ouch.
An our source tells me…
EFP protection is included as standard equipment on all improved MRAP I vehicles built as a result of the MRAP awards announced 18 Dec 2007.
Additional improved MRAP I production contracts issued after that date include the same EFP protection requirement. For example, the BAE-TVS Caiman had a further award of 1024 trucks added after that Dec 16, 2007 award.
Delivery requirements for additional armor kits for earlier fielded MRAP vehicles were added at roughly the same time.
The Army and USMC are both getting deliveries of improved MRAP I vehicles between May 2008 and Dec 2008 per the contracts I mentioned. The same applies to EFP protection upgrades for fielded MRAP vehicles.
Now we’re all spooled up. Thanks to readers and other sources for the gouge.
– Christian
The new add-on will not provide complete protection against all EFPs, just enhanced protection against the current models.
A much larger EFP will just punch right through.
That doesn’t mean the protection isn’t worth having or that it won’t save lives, but we have to remember there are no magic solutions.
Anyone have any idea if the Army will move forward with their plan to purchase up to 15k MRAPs?
they should switch from wheels to tracks. putting all that armor on those axles will just wear out the engine and truck. i know that the israelis use mbt’s without the turrents for troop carriers those would work better then an mrap.
But wait, sintax, didn’t you know that Rumsfeld has decreed that tracks are outmoded and that faster and lighter to the fight is the mantra now? My, my, how quickly bad ideas are proven wrong.
I just wish that turkey had never been Secretary of Defense. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of our now-dead heros in Iraq probably would have been far better off (and alive).
Both he and his mentor Cheney have a lot to answer for. Bush, too, for being so hard-headed to keep him on for so long when it was clear his knuckle-headed policies weren’t working.
McCain gets it. I wish he had won in 2000 or 2004 rather than Bush.
We can take the turrets off of our surplus M60 & M48 tanks & use them like Israel does.Oh wait a minute,we don’t have any surplus M60 &/or M48 tanks anymore.….anywhere.We don’t even have any old surplus IPM1 tanks anymore(I know,because we made them all M1A1s & M1A2s.…& sold them all to Egypt,Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,& now Australia).Way to go,now thats “vision” & foresight.Do we have ANY surplus weapons we can fall back on or did we sell,sink,scrap,&/or blow them all up?
Old Sailor,
Now wait a minute,Donald Rumsfeld is a “genius.” After all,he took 10,000 men into Iraq,bypassing enemy troops(completely),so that he could go into Baghdad,pull down a statue,& have Pres. Bush land on an Aircraft Carrier in a flight suit & declare “Mission Accomplished.” He backed up our 10,000 troops with Blackwater USA,DynCorps,& Triple Canopy,& with KBR & Fluor to provide “logistical support(?)”. I read this in the book “Fiasco.” how can you argue with such “military ‘genius’(especially if you are a Blackwater,DynCorps,Triple Canopy,KBR,&/or Fluor stock holder).”
After all,you don’t go to war with the army you wish you had,you go with the army(& Blackwater,DynCorps,Triple Canopy,KBR,& Fluor) you have already.
is it just me or does the DOD only do half solutions to problems? just so they can ask for more money from congress. like getting 1114 instead of maybe a heavy apc. i can think of other examples but spending has gotten out of control over that at dod.
Seriously,what about logical upgrades like the “Urban-Fighter” cage concept for M113s? HMMWVs should be used primarily for off-road duties,especially since their tires can be replaced with track systems like MATTRACKS.
Thought some NG units were still using M60’s…
The MC deployed M60’s for Desert Storm, wonder where they are now. Don’t think the government would scrap them all so quickly, probably rotting away in a warehouse somewhere.
If turrets are needed, there are LAV turrets. I don’t think we need 120mm cannon like on the Brazilian Cascavels, for example…
There are some 20K tanks that are sitting in storage in the US, like the aircraft boneyards. Still, you’d have to recondition them, unpreserve the engines, check them up, get them out, reopen their supply system, etc. Then take off their turrets and modify their bodies as troop carriers. Then comes the reactive armor plus EFP protection, etc, etc.
Plus, if the issue is weight, now we have 45 ton transports versus 20 ton, which are much slower and, because of tracks, more maintenance prone. The cost will probably exceed the MRAP buy for something with much lower utility (not to mention speed of acquisition).
Reconditioned tanks are a red herring. If Roy Smith is on your side, like Twain said about being in the majority, you need to rethink your position.
I believe the Marines had great success in the Al Anbar province when they bought donkeys to haul suppllies and got away from the roads alltogether.
what are you talking about tracks are slower then wheels? i used to drive on the Baghdad highways near the green zone in a m1a2 at 60–50 mph all the time. plus with tracks REALLY GO OFF ROAD. instead of sticking to roads and getting hit by ieds less so in urban envrioment but in places like afgan you can avoid ieds all together by not using the roads at all. putting all this armor on wheel trucks is foolish you are more inefficent with fuel, more stress on engine, more stress on axles, and more likey to do a roll over. imo whats really need is a new type of tracked apc for the infantry boys the m113 armor is too weak.
“near the green zone in a m1a2 at 60–50 mph all the time. plus with tracks REALLY GO OFF ROAD“
In an M1A2, sintax, not an M60, as others suggested (and hopefully, I buried). World o’ difference between them.
Can’t avoid the roads in Baghdad. It’s a city.
What is needed is not a new anything at all. Go back to CAPs: stick small units out in the population instead of fortified bases, with ocassional patrols in fortified vehicles. That is part of the surge strategy and it is working.
More armor is good, more offense, better.
Roy Smith,
The “M1A2s” sold to Saudi Arabia & Kuwait were NEW BUILD tanks. The M1A1 kits sold to Egypt are/were NEW MANUFACTURE kits assembled at the the Egyptian Tank Plant. Only the Austrailian M1A1s came for surplus US stocks. We have LOTS of Abrams (M1 & M1A1) sitting in fields waiting to become M1A1 AIM or M1A2 SEP!
Excellent examples of counter-insurgency are the French in Algeria(before they decided to just give up & walk out of Algeria,which,if I understand correctly,was considered part of France itself),the British in Northern Ireland & Malaysia,& Israel in the West Bank & Gaza.Israel building a wall to separate the Israelis from the Palestinians(another concept our government just doesn’t get or understand) has helped decrease the suicide bombers in Israel.As far as tracked vehicles in urban environments go,you don’t need speed versus “hauling ass” in the countryside like the “Left Hook” during Desert Storm,or the racing from Kuwait to pull down the statue in Baghdad.A 152mm gun(like on the Sheridan),which was useless in the open fields in taking out enemy tanks from long distances,would work just fine in urban areas for knocking down buildings housing enemy insurgent snipers.Or how about the much bigger 165mm demolition gun to knock down enemy held buildings? 120mm gun for the countryside to knock out enemy tanks(which,the threat of has not diminished,we still have enemies & potential enemies with tanks),& 152mm/165mm gun to knock down buildings in the city.Small dismounted foot patrols in “Indian Country” works also.
Being totally paranoid & obsessively/compulsively checking over,under,& inside your vehicle for “bugs” or triggering devices(like the meth head “tweaker” who takes his TV,toaster,& microwave oven apart to look for listening devices &/or to see who’s hiding inside it) before you pull out on convoy can also save lives.
Roy,
Its not fate or chance. Its called both sides knowing how to take notes and make improvements to their TTPs.
I wish I could explain to you how the IED-emplacing process works (its mostly classified and probably above your paranoid understanding), but put it this way, the headline-producing-abrams flipping events are carefully planned and executed by smart people.
“the headline-producing-abrams flipping events are carefully planned and executed by smart people“
THAT is EXACTLY my “paranoid” point.Those very smart bombers operate from knowledge in advance of what kind of vehicle is operating both where & when.Its like stealing signs from the pitcher in order to know what the next pitch is or how the New England Patriots spied on their oponents in advance of the games they played against them. The “insurgents” are operating on “insider” knowledge.They most likely even know when the U.S. Commander of Forces in Iraq is leaving the Green Zone & in what vehicle.They could blow him up any time they wanted to,like Yamamoto was taken out in WWII.Perhaps,with the aide of “allies”,they can even plant triggering devices on said vehicles to detonate the IED when said vehicle drives over it.
Maybe they are getting help from blond hair,blue eyed “Crypto-Muslims” enlisted in the military & who both operate on & provide maintenance for military vehicles.After all,our military leaders cannot even control the infestation of gang members,like the Bloods & Crips,into our military.
[Gates said 6 percent of troops have been injured or killed while in the Mine Resistant Ambush Protection vehicles in 150 attacks, USA Today reported Tuesday. Six troops died.]
[The military’s main ground transport, Humvees, have a 22 percent casualty rate, Gates said, while attacks on Abrams tanks are more likely to incur casualties than attacks on MRAPs.]
UPI-May 12, 2008 at 12:55 PM
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/05/12/gates_mine-resistant_vehicles_save_lives/7555/
Roy Smith,
A couple other corrections…
Coalition forces did not pull down the Saddam statute (& there was no “mission” for them to do so), IRAQI CITIZENS DID (something they could not possibly have done while Saddam was in control of the country).
The “mission accomplished” statement was in relation to & addressed to the sailers & airmen of the USS Abraham Lincoln who’s deployment was over (aka THIER mission WAS accomplished & THEY were going home). During that speach he took the opportunity to ALSO announced the “end of major combat operations in Iraq”. In hindsight it may have been better to have announced the “end of major combat operations in Iraq” is a separate speech to avoid the confusion caused by the misrepresentation by the main steam media.
OF COURSE those very smart bombers operate from knowledge in advance of what kind of vehicle is operating both where & when. You HAVE to patrol certain ares & travel on certian roads on a regular basis! It is not like the type of vehicle one may wish to attack can ONLY be attacked at ONE specific location at ONE specific moment…
You actually believe that the insurgents could take out the U.S. Commander of Forces in Iraq at any time & place but have not yet done so out of the kindness of their hearts…
Brian
You see victory,I see “Stalingrad.” I also see Muqtada al-Sadr & his militia demanding,from a position of strength & post “Dien Bien Phu” type victory,that we immediately leave Iraq.….WITHOUT our equipment AND weaponry(just like the Eritrean government is demanding that the UN Peacekeepers there do).
“You see victory, I see “Stalingrad.“
Roy, you are delusional.
While due diligence is very good in any task, total paranoia is a strong form of insanity.
I say give Iraq Their Free Country & move our military to border regions in both Iraq and in Afghanistan. Drop all sanctions to boost world economy when it needs it.
We have Russia and Iran upset & Israel is more vulnerable then ever. China & NorthKorea neutral all as whole on us.
If we stay in Iraq, To The Eastern world it is no different then new Isreal. A Theme Park in The GreenZone come on! It’s their land.
I am American love this country. Respect theirs!
We rid Sadaam. Victory. If Sadr becomes top next election we in same boat.
We killed alot of those filled with hatred for us. Victory.
We took many losses But could have been much worse & still could be as well.
We set Iraq somewhat free. Victory. Finish it!
Now goto phase 3. Protect them from outsiders as they need. Keep at Israel’s back. We got to Baghdad in what ~30 hours. Use American power to take get out of their rightful place to be.
I support our troops. Job well done so far overall. Get to borders & underground entrances. Then come home.