[EDITOR: From a DT friend (who prefers to remain anonymous) on his chop of the AWG’s fight for their HK-416s]
The AWG folks are a special US Army task force to deal with IED threats that has turned into a semi-covert group of trigger pulling “trouble shooters.” They got the HK416 because of their semi-official/semi-covert status and then got them taken away when Sen. Coburn both noticed this and embarrassed the Army small arms procurement brass by pointing it out.
To be fair to the Brass, they are in a no-win situation because small arms are a religious faith where true believers will not be swayed by real data.
In the realm of hard “non-religious data,” there seem to be two major knocks against the M4: fouling after lots of firing, and excessive jamming in sandy conditions. Controlled tests in sandstorm-of-the-century conditions indicate the M4 is worse than the HK416 and FN SCAR, but all are in the 99-percentile reliability range.
To quote something a friend of mine sent on the issue:
“Excessive fouling depends on how many major firefights you get into before you can pull maintenance. All three systems use some sort of cylinder-and-piston arrangement to manage the gases. In the M16-type system, it’s in the bolt carrier itself, while the other two restrict it to a small area near the gas port. They all have to be cleaned, eventually. The competition community has developed some M16 gas system tweaks that might interest serious trigger-pullers.
As a professional, your weapon’s health comes first, just like your horse would if you were cavalry. If someone gave me one of each of these weapons, and several thousand rounds of ammo, I might develop a clear favorite. I doubt highly that I would find one totally unfit for my uses.”
I have also been told that a number of M-16 jam problems would disappear if the H&K M16 magazine were adopted as standard issue. It is “…the absolute best out there. Built, and priced, like a BMW.
In the particular case of the HK416 and the AWG, Sen. Coburn would have done better by the troops by earmarking money for HK416.
Since Coburn is a Republican “Small Federal Government”/anti-earmark true believer, this was the result.
From the military procurement point of view, earmarks actually play a very important role in defense readiness in non-glamorous things like transport ships, trucks, and planes.
Rep Les Aspins 1980s earmarks of extra 10-ton HEMET trucks gave the US Army the truck transport to pull off the famous left hook in the 1991 Gulf War.
Sen Trent Lotts earmarks of amphibious ships have given the USMC 20% of its current amphibious fleet.
Former Speaker Newt Gingrichs earmarks of extra C-130s and Rep Dana Rohrabachers earmarks of extra C-17s are the wings resupplying troops in Afghanistan.
Outside of those non-glamorous areas, DoD earmarks are rightly seen as pernicious.
– [Anonymous]
The magazines are a good point; quite a few failures happen from weak springs and bent openings, that sort of thing. I remember one of our Lance Corporals at a tactical range shoot and every other round, he had to clear and reshoot. It was hilarious to see him shout “Failure!” ten times in a row, but that’s also a problem.
Private company mags, steel instead of aluminum, go a long way. They are just not sexy.67
In fact, that army dust test last year pointed out something like 20% of the M4’s failures were magazine related.
The issue isn’t earmarks in general, it’s earmarks that appear in legislative guidance rather than in the legislation itself. Which of these two types are the examples you mention?
The problem is using 5.56 x 45mm in the first place. Sand and fouling generally was/has never been an issue with the 7.62 x 51mm FN-FAL, G3, M-14, etc. The answer lies there and why the FN-SCAR available as a 7.62 x 51mm carbine. Because over 50m, the 64gn 5.56mm round fired from a short barrel isn’t worth a pinch of shit and was never meant to be because — The M4 (Vietnam era it was the Coly Commando) was meant as a sub-machine gun replacement not as the standard battle rifle QED.
The problem is using 5.56 x 45mm in the first place. Sand and fouling generally was/has never been an issue with the 7.62 x 51mm FN-FAL, G3, M-14, etc. The answer lies there and why the FN-SCAR available as a 7.62 x 51mm carbine. Because over 50m, the 64gn 5.56mm round fired from a short barrel isn’t worth a pinch of shit and was never meant to be because — The M4 (Vietnam era it was the Coly Commando) was meant as a sub-machine gun replacement not as the standard battle rifle QED.
I think another problem with jamming in American firearms, more specifically in the Colt-type 5.56 M16 series, is the fine machine tooling. Everything is so precise that a bit of sand can foul up the whole gun. To make the obvious comparison, the AK-47 has none of the problems the M16 series has because of its loose machine work. You can actually throw sand in the breach and the gun will fire. Im not proposing adopting an AK variant, because the gun isnt really accurate past 100 yards. We’ve come a long way in making our guns more durable, but if theres one company I trust in making reliable firearms, its HK
I think Patrick has an excellent point. As prized as the Luger was, why do you think there were more P-38s made and issued than Lugers? And while the Germans made some beautiful wooden-stocked submachine guns, they were subject to the same problem. Hence, the less-expensive and less-intolerant stamped guns that became so symbolic. The Russians found the same problem with their early submachine guns, but the more dirt-tolerant PPSh design became a classic.
Our troops deserve Lexus-class workmanship, but sometimes an old Ford truck is what you need to get where you’re going.
Mr. Anonymous,
”…are a religious faith where true believers will not be swayed by real data.
In the realm of hard ‘non-religious data,’”
Whether you intended it or not, that anti-American jab at religion offends and insults those of us who are spiritual/religious. By that comment of yours, you have lowered yourself to the level of the APOSTATE Elders of Zion, and the rest of your article is not worth reading by anybody with a decent mind! If you are not already saved, then may God save your soul.
Hey “WR” Nobody particularly cares. Only the overly religious zealots would think that comment had anything to do with commentary on the fallibility of religion. I do believe you fall into that category. If you wanted others to find God so bad, maybe you should stop being so annoying and judgmental? You see, most people like God and the concept. It’s the fan club they despise.
As far as the article goes, the M4 is “good enough” and “gets the job done” but since when is that acceptable for the best-funded military? Considering there is zero re-training involved with the 416 other than 5 minutes on explaining the cleaning difference, you can’t objectively say that it’s not worth it. It is. It’s just good ol Brass clinging to their bedmate’s contracts.
HK Steel mags are overpriced. I have one, and paying 2.5 times as much for a slightly better mag is not even close to economically sound. Paying for a PMAG which is a lot better than either works for me. SF guys know their gear, and if they are refusing to use the M4 and actually are spending their cut of funding to buy a replacement, then you know something is wrong.
The sooner this contract is put up for bid the better.
The British 5.56mm Rifle had similar desert condition problems, however the A2 variant has eradicated this. It will know outperform HK & US weapons.
Well darn, someone beat me too it. Metal magazines of any type have a major flaw. The magazine body isn’t springy enough to handle the same kind of abuse modern polymers can. Even with the first production run flaws that the P-mag had, now that the bugs are worked out, and it has been acceptably tested to destruction, I say we should be replacing every magazine as it fails with P-mags.
Speaking of working flaws out, the military procurement system is backwards. They should be issuing all new “toys” to the Marines first. If anyone embodies the “test to destruction” mentality, its the Marines. You test it and work the bugs out untill it reaches an acceptable level of breakage with the Marines, and then the chances that the Army or the other services will break it are greatly reduced. Thats why I am looking forward to seeing how the production Masada/ACR turns out. It was developed under the direction of an inactive Marine.
My Saiga (AK-47 variant) just keeps on shooting. No problems, no jambs, no failures. no problem.
M4 carbine performance depends greatly on the bullet it is firing.
See below from strategypage.com:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20080516.aspx
Brown Tip 5.56mm for Short Barrels
May 16, 2008: U.S. SOCOM (Special Operations Command) has used its own, bureaucracy free, budget to design and manufacture special ammunition for the short barrel (10–15 inch) weapons (like the M-4 and SCAR Light). The new ammo, referred to as “5.56 Optimized”, or “brown tip” (because the tips of the bullets are brown for easy identification) uses a bullet that is solid copper and 70 grains in weight (compared to 62 grains for the NATO standard 5.56 bullet). The solid copper design is believed to be based on a commercial design (the Barnes Triple-Shock X) that was introduced five years ago. The new round was designed to achieve better accuracy and hitting power at the ranges (under 300 meters) the short barrel weapons are most effective at. The brown tip ammo costs more, because of its unique design and small production runs, but SOCOM doesn’t worry about that when it’s for something that will make its operators more effective, and help keep them alive.
Humm…imagine this bullet on a Tavor with a 18″ barrel. A boy can dream, right?
Compact,ergonomic and plenty of terminal effectiveness.A boy can dream, right?
Hey Spider that “British 5.56mm rifle” you are refering to is the L85 and yes the A2 variant was a major improvement. But I’m not sure it outperforms HK weapons being that the L85 A2 IS A HK WEAPON.
From wikipedia:
“In 2000, Heckler & Koch were contracted to upgrade the SA80 family of weapons. Two hundred thousand SA80s were re-manufactured at a cost of
This article uses several examples of “good earmarks” as examples of how earmarks could be beneficial. However, I have two keys question. Why was it necessary to earmark these items? Why weren’t these items in the defense budget?
Is this just a hint of how incompetent the House and Senate defense oversight committies are?
Sometimes earmarks work well. Some Congressmen and Senators are actually more concerned with getting the job done instead of being someone important.
The M4 works well. It is the most copied rifle design in history and since the patents expired, people tinkering with the system and produce hundreds of improvements. I lost count at 85 different designs that started with the M16. Let’s keep it and improve it slowly, e.g. replacing the M16A1 with the M16A2.
Keep the bolt carrier lubricated (axle grease works well) and check your magazines. The M16/M4 will run dirty if lubed. Run it dry and it will jam.
The HK416 is also a good system, but will also require new tools and training, an added cost.
I like the idea of a gas piston upper for the M4. The gas blowback from the current direct inpingement setup burns my eyes and fouls the chamber. My AR15/M16A2 clone has the original Stoner design for accuracy.
The steel HK mags look good and run good at the range, but they are heavy, reportedly rust, even in the desert, and there are durability issues as mentioned by several other contributors. Keep new magazines in the supply change. Like DopplerDave said, they are expendable. As part of your pre-combat inspections, make sure they fit the magazine well. If there is ANY doubt that the mag won’t work, destroy it.
Regards, Slred
Sometimes earmarks work well. Some Congressmen and Senators are actually more concerned with getting the job done instead of being someone important.
The M4 works well. It is the most copied rifle design in history and since the patents expired, people tinkering with the system and produce hundreds of improvements. I lost count at 85 different designs that started with the M16. Let’s keep it and improve it slowly, e.g. replacing the M16A1 with the M16A2.
Keep the bolt carrier lubricated (axle grease works well) and check your magazines. The M16/M4 will run dirty if lubed. Run it dry and it will jam.
The HK416 is also a good system, but will also require new tools and training, an added cost.
I like the idea of a gas piston upper for the M4. The gas blowback from the current direct inpingement setup burns my eyes and fouls the chamber. My AR15/M16A2 clone has the original Stoner design for accuracy.
The steel HK mags look good and run good at the range, but they are heavy, reportedly rust, even in the desert, and there are durability issues as mentioned by several other contributors. Keep new magazines in the supply change. Like DopplerDave said, they are expendable. As part of your pre-combat inspections, make sure they fit the magazine well. If there is ANY doubt that the mag won’t work, destroy it.
Regards, Skred
The H&K magazine is vastly overrated. Users have very little good to say about them at enthusiast sites like ar15.com. A friend of mine got three while serving in Iraq. He quickly unloaded them for a ridiculous price and never looked back.
Magpul PMAG’s retail for $14 a piece. They will function after being intentionally abused and shot. Literally. Check out the following link to see it yourself.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312
Why look anywhere else?
Senator Coburn is an idiot and needs to be run out of Congress. A few more liars like him that claim they support the troops and we will be really f#cked over.
“Rep Les Aspin
“It is the DoD’s responsibility to tell the President/Congress what they need“
What they need may not be the same thing as what they should have.
AFAIK the HK416 would have cost no more than the M4 or any other piston-driven assault rifle once HK were fully tooled up for it.
Vickers even states that for GI troops the M4 is actually ok but its flaws become painfully obvious when the AR-platform is put to the test by the guys who have to kick doors down in the middle of the night and put lots of rounds downrange.
Things like extremely poor triggers and tempermental mags only add to the average footsoldiers frustration.
“Ok” is not acceptable when you are the tip of the spear in a place like Iraq or Afghanistan. Loose tolerances are one thing, but if that were the only reason an AK keeps going after years of abuse, then older M4s should be more reliable than newer ones due to wear, which isnt the case.
The AK is fundamentally a better design, hence its use by the SIG550, Galil, etc. The HK tappet system is even better.
It is possible to design mechanisms that are tolerant to abuse but still remain accurate, but this has to be considered at the development stage.
The AR-type system is inherently flawed as a combat weapon…it requires regular (and meticulous) cleaning to remain truly combat effective, something that cannot be guaranteed in ANY conflict, especially the urban warfare that occurs in Iraq or dusty ambushes in Afghanistan. Cleanliness probably isnt the first thing a recruit thinks of after nearly being killed in a Baghdad ambush.
If you built a racing car that dispenses with exhausts in order to save weight, then sure you save a bunch of money and might even perform well for the first few laps but sooner rather than later all that hot gas and dirty crap is going to cause you all sorts of problems.
“The AR-type system is inherently flawed as a combat weapon…it requires regular (and meticulous) cleaning to remain truly combat effective…“
This is demonstrably false, as anyone who has used the AR-platform to any degree knows. Lubrication is very important, that cannot seriously be questioned. But “regular and meticulous” cleaning isn’t. The AR can go thousands of rounds between cleanings. My personal weapon hasn’t been cleaned in over 1500 rounds, yet works flawlessly. Regular use of the right lubricants is key. Keep it wet and the AR-platform works fine.
There’s too many politicians involved with the procurement process. Colt has a death grip on small arms, and its not gonna change for regular Army. Spec. Ops use the 416 or the SCAR, and that is telling. When you get into a running gunbattle, theres no time to properly clean/lube ur weapon. It may take time, eventually the Army and Marines will get thier 416’s, or maybe change the round to 6.8 and go with the 468. The 6.8 is a good compromise between 5.56 and 7.62. Why don’t they let the military have more of a say in wat weapons they use. Vickers had me convinced about the 416. I guess Spec. Ops is convinced too.
I cannot say I’m as experienced as those here or know a particular “expert” in this area. My experiences with the M-16A2 was mediocre at best. For one, my rifle was not new, but I cared for it like I loved it, So no cleaning issues and the like, It was far from warn out. So it would be the typical weapon most of our men and women are using now. When the first and only opportunity came up to really give it a work-out I was very disappointed. One big issue is that it heats up way to fast, fine if you want to pink away slow fire but try to crank out some serious fire and you can cook a steak on it. As for jamming and the like, it did it way to often. “Way to Often” would be every second or third magazine. (Ya, no hard data here, but I could not see clearing jams in a fire fight this often) Which is unacceptable for any modern weapon and or highly industrialized nation’s military machine should or could produce. The design is old and firing the standard brass casing is old too.
It’s time to invest more into a weapon that uses caseless ammo (pick any caliber, that will crew through concrete and wood), with increased magazine capacity (somewhere around 50–100 rounds per mag or drum) match the weapons with some decent optics that meets and or exceeds the effective range the M-16 series has now.
I find it odd and sad that our military still depends on such an old design. Who the hell is running this outfit and can we fire them?
It still boils down to the 5.56 fd vs. the 7.62. Marines are forced to put at least 4–5 rds. in every jihadi terr. to put his ass down for good! We need the shock & knockdown of at least the 7.62 area. This is Bullshit!!!
WR, you make no sense dude, this article is just that, commentary. Get a life, or get your balls back from your wife.
breechblock,dude, calm down, there are plenty of 7.62’s for the marines to be shooting with if they can’t hit with their issue rifles or would rather shoot the AK. Understand this
Marines are not forced to do anything,
Marines do what must be done.
When is the U.S. Army going to get smart and finally replace 5.56mm caliber rifles as basic standard for infantry weapons? Any varmint-caliber rifle is not sufficient to protect and defend our own military forces. The 5.56x45 NATO has served us for 40 years; it is long overdue to be replaced. I love all of the H&K weapons, but even the best 5.56mm caliber weapon is insufficient. Go to at least .257 (6.35mm) caliber or larger for some respectable power.
Gave you who want to an email so you can cuss me. It isn’t Sen. Coburn who’s the S.O.B. The Marines have a long history of going into battle with the best rifle available. Your being short changed!
I sure cannot discount the job you have done with what you’ve had. Discounting all the propaganda litereture furnished with the Armalite rifles you have from Colt Armes, and looking at preformance and ballistics they don’t match the BS info to promote sell them to the military. I was the one who encouraged the challenge to prove it in “real field conditions.” I knew ahead of time that the M16 and M4 could not pass the test I proposed. The gas piston is a unique idea, but until someone comes up with a way to keep that 3/16th bleed hole clear it isn’t field ready. U.S. weapons prior to the M16 could work in the sand, mud, dirt, snow, fished out of a river, etc. and only stopped working when they didn’t have amo.
My hat is off to you who’ve adapted and made it work. For the comment about the Marines I saw in here, it may interest you to know there were some who accused the Marines of “exicuting insurgents” because of the head shots they were making… When that’s all you have to shoot at and you lack penitration (or have the reports of insurgents taking up to four and five body hits where the round just passes through) you have to adapt. We have some 6.5mm and 6.8mm rifles now that will put the target down when hit. I am not looking to weight you guys down. We were ignorant knuckle dragers I guess. We started with 30.06 and went to 7.62 and knew no other. We did know that they’d always work and they would deliver a kill out to 800yds. Never heard of anyone having this climb problem doing full auto either — guess that is part of the Colt sales BS cause it wasn’t fact. Here is a tide bit for any of you with an itch to mess around and access — the IDF does a mod on the AK’s where they move the rear site to the back and get an acurate rifle out of it…
I carried the Armalite M16 for 5 years in the USAF. I shot on the rifle and pistol team for my security squadron for 3 years. I attended AZR training where we got in a concrete pipe with a manhole cover on it at 6 am and fired until high noon. We took our steel pots and scooped the brass out beneath our feet,ate a box of C rats and fired until 5 pm. We then marched to a cleaning area. Stripped our weapons down, tossed them in some hot kerosene and brushed them off,then dumped them in a tray filled with hot oil. The next morning at 6 am we got back in the pipe. This went on until one could show his ffflight cheif he could hit a helmet target at 3oo meters 18 times out of a 20 round magazine. This was one of the few times we actually loaded 20 rds. in a 20 rd. mag. Most of the time the 20 rd.mags were stored with 18 rds. I don’t ever remember having my rifle jam in 5 years. I was careful not to cook the barrel. In a firefight in full auto the barrell can heat up dherry red and cause it to warp and loose temper. At this phase the weapon will fire a rd. with it sat on safe. It cooks them off. If you ever heat a weapon to this stage.…get rid of it. The Armalites did not have forward assist either.
We live in a day and age where we DO NOT know where the magazines were made.…We DO NOT know where our ammunition is made…The only thing we can trust is some pencil pusher bought thestuff at the best rock bottom price he could find. I believe we should restore trust. The best rifle in the world will not fire garbage. Just like the computer folks say GARBAGE IN?GARBAGE OUT !!!! I read a few years back where ammunition was bought from TAIWAN. This was done because the deadbeats in the GOP thought it was more important to cut corners than spend a few bucks hiring people to wprk at the arsenals in the USA. This insanity has to stop. There is a massive conspiracy under way in this country since Ronald Reagan was president to drain the wealth out of the middle class. It has got to the point now that it has imperoled the soldiers on the battlefield. I don’t think the democrats have done much to help the military or the middle class either since 1980.It is SHAMEFUL that this generation will be poorer than the one before it. This is not how America is supposed to work. All the evil in weapons and ammo can probably be traced back to some fatcat slimeball that is trying to replace democracy with the same royalty we got rid of 220 years ago.I want to know how many magazines and how much ammo issued to the GIs today came from 3rd world countries. What is wrong with spending money in the USA and let American citizens build our war making materials? When I was in the military we could be shot for making deals with China. Now I am beginning to ssupet we may be getting our ammunition from there. When did the Communists stop being Communists.? We need to protect our soldiers,airmen,aand sailors if we are to remain a free country. We need to keep our ability to equip our military IN THE USA.regardless of what some sneaking little fatcat rat might have to say.I guarantee these rats never spent time in the military nor will their children.
I got to say my favorite carry is a Taurus 1911 with a few wilson combat mags,m4 with brand new custom RIS rails, an ACOG scope,and a surefire flashlite not to mention a (BM42) balisong,SOG Trident Tanto,KA-BAR fighting knife,and a Benchmade model 670.
Gentlemen: Really enjoyed the M4 discussion, but… the bottom line for those who forgot, or were too young or not born, the problem of M16/M4’s inadequate stopping power, and severe tendancy to jam in use has been around since the first issue of the matel crap in 1966/67.
American soldiers regularly died then due to defective rifles and ammunition, and what really is scary, are still dying to keep defective combat weapons in service and corporate profits up.
Field tests in vietnam indicated a much higher reliability of gas piston/operating rod systems over throwing frequently dirty gas directly into multi piece bolts. But I guess someone in procurement owed a buddy at colt a big favor. I pray that their kids or grandkids are amongst the casualties of the M16/M4.
in early 80’s used to get new 45 mags, i got to test all new mags since there were QC problems with italian mfgr(too long, hung slide) the command should have left those weapons in their troops hands and fought with anyone that tried to remove them, those troops must have felt some protection by having those rifles. there had to be some desire to get them and issue them. that is the real problem, command not standing up for its troops. most contract ammo is mfgr’d offshore, how much is mismatched bullets and powder. if you shoot heavy round with hi burn rate powder the barrel is going to get hotter than it was designed for, this was prime cause of jamming in early M16 issues(VietNam combat).
Why not retrofit all M4s with a gas piston Kit, Bushmaster and a few other companies make them, it would solve the problem with the action, bolt, bolt, carrier, and chamber from getting as fouled. The hot gas dries out any lube put on the bolt and carrier causing it to bind up. I think these kits would be the best solution, they are cheap and readily available, and are a “drop in fit”. A weapon can be retrofitted in less than 10 minutes.