And to follow up from yesterday’s story on Military.com, it turns out the U.S. has also expressed some interest in odering some Tucanos.
Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer is participating in preliminary negotiations to sell the U.S. government eight 314-B1 Super Tucano light attack and training planes for use in Iraq, the company said June 2.
The plane maker is offering Washington the Super Tucano in a tender process opened by the U.S. government, according to an Embraer spokesman who declined to be named in keeping with company policy.
More…
Brazilian law prohibits a private company from selling arms for use in existing conflicts, but the spokesman said the plane was not shipped with any armaments and was intended for training purposes in the U.S.
If the U.S. government decides to buy the Tucano from Embraer and requests that they be outfitted with weapons, at that point the Brazilian government would have to step in and negotiate the sale, the Embraer spokesman said.
And I posed the question to our boy Steve Trimble who’s an oft contributor to DT and he had this to say:
This appears to be the long-awaited purchase of Super Tucanos by the USAF on behalf of the Iraqi Air Force. Im not sure what preliminary negotiations means. There were three or four other candidates for the order, and they may still be in the running. Its possible that the USAF remains in preliminary negotiations with all of the possible bidders, which include the Hawker Beechcraft T-6, the Pilatus PC-9 and perhaps the Korea Aerospace KT-1 Wong Bee. (The T-6 and PC-9, by the way, are essentially the same aircraft.) As far as I know, the USAFs senior leadership remain adamantly opposed to buying such an aircraft for its own purposes, preferring to employ the unmanned MQ-9 Reaper and the A-10 for the same basic mission.
I’ll try to ping my sources in the FMS office in Iraq to see what the deal is…More to follow.
[Photo: totally Photoshopped]
– Christian
The best aircraft for the job is the good old OV-10A Bronco. They were used as late as the first gulf war as observation aircraft. Although the ones without proper chaffe and other protection against shoulder launched anti-aircraft missles were shot down. But a fully loaded Bronco would probably out class all the other aircraft.
The OV10 is a twin,while the Super Tucano is a single turboprop…much more expensive to maintain and operate, although having 2 is better than one when you’re the driver.
Visibility in the Tucano seems to be better as well, not that the Bronco isn’t a good platform for the job.
The problem is knowing exactly why these planes are being bought.It says that the U.S. Government is buying these planes,not the Pentagon specifically.Are they being bought for the Iraqi Air Force & for what purpose?
I also heard that U.S. Air Force Special Operations Command was interested in the Super Tucano.
Also,why couldn’t the U.S. buy the planes unarmed & then arm them themselves?
I will say this, I would not want to be in one of those when a bunch of ground forces with AK’s, probably PKM’s and whatever Russian weapons they have shooting at me.
They tried the T-28 in Vietnam and it did not work well. They went with the A-1 and the A-37 which did work much better. This is just another T-28 and they are wasting money if they think they will work against a well armed insurgency.
As soon as the Iraq airforce gets going I bet we’ll see some SA-7’s knocking them down. How they got in the hands of the insurgents I guess we’ll leave that up to the CIA to figure out.
Good Morning Folks,
This posting is in reply to “pfcem” on the previous post on this subject where he indicated that we need to but F-22’s and F-35’s so we are ready for a REAL war when it comes up.
As someone who fought and got a “Bleeder” in another war 42 years ago that wasn’t real war I’m offended that someone who doesn’t even have the guts to sign his own name to a post disrepects all of you who have been, currently or will be deployed to Aghanistan or Iraq.
Unfortunely this is how the Generals, Admirals and Civilian “leader” feel about you who are fighing these wars and are getting wounded and dying in the GWOT, it’s not a real war. This is how politicians who wear a flag pin and votes against Veterans Bills in Congress…this is how a Senator who need brain surgery feel when they can select where to go, not WR or TNNMC where the wounded from there ware are subjected to regularly butcherly in the OR, he will tell you you are getting world class care,…this is what a former Press Sec. for the President thinks of you when he says oops, I lied when I was putting out all that stuff that got us in to Iraq, he will weep all the way to the bank with the mega bucks he will earn off his book.
If this sounds bitter, well it is. As I wirte this my left eye socked feels like somebody sniffed out a cigarette in it, it been that way since December 2, 1966. I’ve been to where those of you who have paid the biggist price for this needless war have yet to go. Enjoy it now and TAKE all that you can, “pfcem” and his like certainly are. They won’t even use there name on a post, barve, uh. After the fighting stops you will be treated just like us who served in Vietnam are, welcome to how your country feels about you.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Byron Skinner,
Forgive me for being the cynic,but Congress never declared “war,” so maybe that’s why pfcem is saying this isn’t a “real war.” Unfortunately,soldiers are really dying in an “undeclared(at least not legally declared by Congress) war.” Why the Senate & the House of Representatives did everything but declare “war” is beyond my comprehension.The last “legally declared” war was World War II.
Maybe it was a poor choice of words on pfcem’s part,maybe he should have said “conventional war” facing a conventional army like Russia,Iran,North Korea,&/or China instead of irregular guerrillas like the Taliban in Afghanistan & Al Qaeda & the Mahdi Army in Iraq.
Unfortunately,unconventional wars are beating us down,weakening,& opening us up to attack from other countries like Russia,Iran,North Korea,& or China.
There are those who don’t want the Air force to buy any other planes but the F-22 & F-35.There is no proof that these Super Tucanos are being bought for our Air Force.,so people are getting bent out of shape over nothing
Let’s hope that the role of these aircraft is limited only to training the Iraqi AF. As a ground attack platform, there are better alternatives, for sure.
At $133/barrel oil, the Iraqis should be picking up the tab.
At least the Tucano has a reliable engine.
Wouldn’t it be better to use jets? Maybe something like the CT-155 for training purposes.
Seeing that Iraqi’s just made a nice deal with Zastava and UTVA of Serbia I’d like to see the Soko Super Galeb G-4 in the Iraqi COIN aircraft running.
Jokes hehe
Byron Skinner,
I thank you for your service, but…
What a bunch of crap! I have friends & family who are currently serving in our armed forces (INCLUDING those who have &/or are currently deployed to Iraq & Afghanistan). I know Veterans of previous wars as well & what is going on in Iraq & Afghanistan is a f…ing CAKEWALK compared to REAL war. Some servicemembers have stated that training was harder than what they are/have been doing in Iraq &/or Afghanistan. I am not disrepecting our servicemen&women, I am stating what THEY say if you ever bothered to ask them!
Don’t be fooled by the “mainstream media”. Things were never THAT bad in Iraq &/or Afghanistan.
As I have said before, our current “enemies” never were, are not & never will be a significant MILITARY threat & our UNHEARD-OF low death & casualty numbers make this ABUNDANTLY clear.
Shoud we ever find ourselves in a REAL war with an enemy with a REAL military we will need a REAL military of our own to defeat them. Not some “counter-insurgency police force” like what so many want to transform our armed forces into!
Good Evening Folks,
To Roy Smith, re: pfcem’s response. Afghanistan and Iraq are “cakewalks”. That has nothing to do with Congress declairing war or not. It is the attitude of the Neocon Chicken Hawks who started these wars, pfcem is not an exception. To them the American service person is nothing more then the meat for the grinder. Dumb enough to volunteer they deserve what ever fate they may have. Back home and wounded, well secrew ‘em.
If there was ever a compelling reason for the draft it is the thinking of those to good to fight but don’t mind having do it for them.
As to the next “REAL” war, I doubt if any of us here will be alive if and when it ever happens. The uberexpensives useless weapons system now being baught will all have been recycled into beer can long before it will happen. The F-22 and the F-35 is as Jessie helms would say, “…money thrown down a rat hole.“
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Hey, Bryon, first stop signing your name: we get it, it’s on your nametag.
And second, I’m throwing out my vet-trump card against your pansy chickenhawk card. You served, we served, you had skin in the game, our (and my Marine Corps’) skin is in the game right now. Do you really think the military (and God help you, the Marine Corps) is packed with doves? 90% of active duty would outhawk the hardest neocon fantasy you can dream up, pal.
Go play shuffleboard, old timer. Leave saving the world to warriors.
The Pentagon would never accept it because they couldn’t justify tacking on an extra $10 million per copy like they would want to. It just wouldn’t screw the American tax payer enough.
Byron Skinner,
TINSTA ALLONS! TINSTA ALLONS!
V/R,
WR
I still believe this plane is a good close air support aircraft, but not the best COIN aircraft.
Like I said before, an aircraft like an attack helicopter, AC130 gunship, or something like the predator are all great COIN aircraft because they can 1. Observe with great sensors for the few enemies making the attack and causing the trouble, and 2. Make the precision strike or more if needed.
Some aircraft can do one or the other, but the ones I mentioned above can do both very well. This plane mentioned can make strikes.. but we have plenty of aircraft that can do that. What is needed is an all in one aircraft such as an AC130, Attack helo (Apache) or UAV like the predator with a great sensor pod below it and hellfire precision strikes. Aircraft like the A10, Tucano, and Fighter jets able to make precision drops are all good ground support craft, but not COIN aircraft. Theres a difference.
Very exciting, I like it
They are still using the OV-10 in P.I. and of couse by the C.D.F. and of course the OV-10 with the M-197 20 mm was great.
The Bronco was known as being somewhat underpowered for the job. Upengine it, and then you’d be talking. Key elements for a COIN aircraft have probably changed since Vietnam, though. A medium-speed FAC(A) capability with a lot of sensors and some precision weapons and decent endurance is what you probably need.
Iraq has already used light turbotrainers (PC-7s IIRR) to great effect in the first Gulf War with Iran. Very useful platform cross-FLOT chase platform for dealing with helo raiding and resupply/medevac efforts. Damn near useless when faced with ‘real’ fighters (as I recall, in 1991, an Iraqi PC-7 or 9 had the pilot bail out when the Su-17 he was FACing for got nailed by an F-15) but a great deal more flexible in staying low and /just/ beyond the reach of frontal AD in a contested area.
The latter is the key delineator now because as more and more of these toys show up in places like Chad, there is no reason not to assume that SA-7/14/16/18 etc. will not follow them as the natural counter.
At which point you run into a severe problem in that you either need a sensor package and PGM system sufficient to stay well out on the delivery slant and above the trashfire, all hours.
Or you need a TADIRCM type mini laserhead jammer.
And typically, these machines just don’t have the kva generator capacity to handle either.
There are some exceptions, I believe Brazil has an AT-29 variant of their Super Tucano with a permanent FLIR mount under the belly for instance.
But in any case, until you start mating up _cheap_ (productionized with lots of orders) systems like Spike, Viper-Strike, SCALPEL or GBU-39/40, when they become available, you will never be really safe. Because anything which puts the nose below the horizon (including Hellfire and LCPK/APKWS) will lock up your ground track for long enough to get a MANPADS into air.
MAWS and Flares may help a little but only a /very/ little against the latest heat seekers. Indeed, I seem to recall what eventually drove off the Iraqi Chopper Killers was the Iranian RBS-70 purchase.
All of the above being said, what bothers me about Iraq is that we are creating an insurgency defeating force on the presumption that when we leave, not only will the war cook off again but the main government factions will stick together to nail down whoever raises their heads to get hammered. This seems ridiculous at best, given what delayed the Constitution and –still– farks up the profit sharing arranged is the very fact that democracy makes pluralcy, not majority opinion.
Something which will change when they go the way they have always said they wanted to: back to a religious fundamentalist (sharia) government.
I don’t want to see a dictatorship of Shiia fundamentalism become the new driving power in Iraq but if it happens, I don’t see the wisdom in arming them with aircraft that can reach beyond sectarian lines to use airpower to breach the very kinds of ‘if not the pen, then the sword!’ impasses they threw up against us.
Because the essential difference between CAS/COIN and BAI/OBAS is how long you stick around vs. how many initial casualties you (FFAR spray) create so that a followon ground force can come in and finish things.
I have been looking at these planes, and the A10 design for low altitude seems to work, If you want a prop plane, go back to the ww2 design of the P38 and upgrade it for modern times. twin engine, 20 mm gun good bomb payload, good range and speed. Just a thought.
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thank you admin very good